Dear Phanto,

«If you were designing the species and you wanted to make sure that it continued on by procreating wouldn’t you be sure to make certain that the method of procreation was the best of sexual behaviours?»

I think that you are confusing "best" in the sense of highest-pleasure with "best" in the sense of goodness/virtue/righteousness. Why should they coincide?

«If you want to guarantee the continuation of the species you would steer people in the direction that leads to that outcome.»

Who is "you" in the above two observations?

If there is indeed a designer, not just any designer but one who is worthy of respect, then I can see why you would want to obey and participate in his design, regardless whether the act is pleasurable or even painful.

But what if the designer is some mad scientist from the 55th dimension? And what if the designer is a blind unconscious evolutionary force? Why should such a designer be respected? If that is the case, doesn't it outrage you when this designer tries to seduce you with sensations of pleasure to dance to his flute?

From some of the fragments that I can recall of some science documentaries is that the drive for the survival of the species by way of some form of procreation is indeed hard wired so to speak in some species. Verily, the whole purpose of their existence is to produce strong and healthy offspring such that when this task is concluded, they simply die.

I like to believe as Humans though that their is nothing wrong with choosing to simply Love Orgasm. I have always been singularly disinterested in having children. But orgasm .. is one of the great pleasures of being in the flesh and I believe highly therapeutic, or at least, has the potential to be.

And just to jump for a moment, I am reminded of one of the Biblical stories. Now, if I do not misrecall, Jesus did not rail upon the Ho when conversing, but rather encouraged her to consider only making Love when in Love, for he was of the view that she was (as in the Greek) missing the point of what sex is for.

I believe that it is not unreasonable for Humanity to take it upon them selves to enjoy to their Hearts' content the pleasures of orgasm above and beyond the need to procreate.

And historically there has been more than a few instances when non-hetero forms of sexuality have been the "norm." Still, it is probably also true to say that this form or that has always upset some people, and thereafter it has remained in the realm of one prevailing majority or another inflicting and imposing its views on everyone else.

We really need to go beyond a mono-culture imposing itself on a population which has many different peoples of differing cultures within it to a greater expression of what multi-culturism could be.

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Dear ttbn,

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Many thanks for providing that background information. I appreciate it. Mine is similar in many ways.

I'll respond in the same order as your comments :

« Abnormal behaviour has always been in existence »

Agreed - in both heterosexual and homosexual unions.

« you obviously do not care about children if you think it is alright for them to be brought up by a couple of queers when their school mates and friends have a mother and father »

I am heterosexual and “care about children”. I have been married for fifty years and have two daughters and three grand-children. The homosexual couples I know are very discreet and highly respectable. They are not what I should call “queers”. There is nothing in their outward appearance or behavior that indicates their sexual orientation.

My father left home in the Queensland outback when I was a toddler. My mother never remarried and I grew up without a father but that was never a problem for me at school. Same for my wife. Her father died when she was two years old. We now spend most of our time bringing up our two grand-daughters. Our elder daughter’s husband sexually abused the children and left them with a mountain of debt.

I spent the last ten years going through the courts with her to sort out all the problems caused by the husband and “father” of the children (incest plus huge debt). My wife and I provide financial support.

Our two grand-daughters are much happier, safer and far better off without their father. They now live “normally” and have many good school friends.

« Having two 'mums' or two 'dads' instead of a mum and a dad is an abominable way for a kid to start life. I don't give two hoots what queers do with their lives, but they are not equipped to raise children »

I understand and have full respect for your attitude but heterosexual mums and dads can be even worse.

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I think you will find that my experience of life is fairly comparable with yours so far as childhood and parenthood is concerned. Given our ages, it is possible that our relationships with our respective life companions (both, wives I presume) is fairly similar too.

The sexual orientation of couples is only part of the story. I doubt that same-sex couples raise children much differently than we do.

The track record of heterosexual marriages in Australia is extremely poor:

- There were 121 000 marriages but also 50 200 divorces in 2010.
- Roughly 50% of divorces each year impact on children aged less than 18 years
- 41% of all reported sexual assault victims were aged 0-14 years (Aust. Institute of Health & Welfare, 2009)
- 19% of women and 5.5% of men reported experiencing sexual violence since the age of 15 ( Aust. Bureau of Stats. survey, 2005)
- 25% of women experienced intimate partner physical violence at least once in their lifetime and in the last 12 months, 1995–2006 (UN Stats. Division:

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/Worldswomen/WW2010%20Report_by%20chapter%28pdf%29/violence%20against%20women.pdf)

- Family Violence costs Australia about $8 billion per year, a substantial proportion of which is borne by the victims themselves (Vic. Health, 2004)

According to a survey by The Aust. Institute of Criminology in 2003 :

- 20.8% of all homicides involve intimate partners. This represents approximately 76 homicide incidents within Australia each year.
- Over three-quarters (76.9%) of these intimate partner homicides involved a male offender and a female victim.
- Of these homicides, 65.8% occurred between current spouses or de-facto partners, whilst 22.6% occurred between separated/divorced spouses or de facto partners.
- 10% occurred between current or former boy/girlfriends, and
- 2% occurred within same sex relationships

Even if there were to be just as much intimate partner violence in same sex marriage as there is at present in heterosexual marriage, at least the protagonists would be boxing in the same category !

On the basis of the latest available statistics, same sex relationships only count for 2% of all intimate partner homicides.

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Phanto,

I think your use of the word ‘best’ is confusing everyone. Yuyutsu has one interpretation of what you mean, I have another. I think what you’re trying to say is that, objectively, heterosexual sex, physically (and emotionally?), provides the highest possible level of sexual pleasure out of all forms of sex, irrespective of one’s preferences (i.e. in theory, all perfectly 50/50 bisexual people would agree that heterosexual sex is more pleasurable).

Very creative!

Not only is that impossible to gauge, but the fact that individuals derive maximum pleasure from such a wide range of activities and fetishes (including simulation (e.g. strap-ons, blow-up dolls (just look where you’ve taken this discussion!))) discredits that. Your argument from design is flawed for two reasons too. Firstly, you’re appealing to a conscious designer that most of us here know doesn’t exist anyway. Secondly, the actual designer - evolution - is a far-from-perfect designer, and favours variety anyway.

But hey, let’s say you’re right about homosexual sex not being as pleasurable as heterosexual sex. So what? Gay people still prefer homosexual sex, so it’s better than heterosexual sex for them and, contrary to your claim,

<<...they have chosen never to be open to the best sexual experience.>>

they don’t choose to be attracted to who they are any more than you do. That’s just who they are.

Even if you were right, the best your point would demonstrate is that gay people don’t enjoy the sex they prefer as much as what heterosexual people do. Either way, they still prefer it and it feels better for them, even if their enjoyment levels never reach the same as ours. What your point does not demonstrate (for reasons already mentioned), however, is that there is something innately wrong with, or unnatural about, homosexuality.

By the way, that your arguments sound logical to you means little given that you are working with incomplete information. There are a lot of facts that are counter-intuitive to the naive. I’d give examples, but they could end up having the effect of a throwaway line.

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(Continued...)

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Also, about 50% of all heterosexual marriages today, end up in separation or divorce. The children end up living with a single sex parent, generally, the mother.

Same sex relationships have a far better track record than heterosexual relationships in this regard.

Here are the latest statistics which are not much different from those indicated above. If anything, perhaps a little worse, in some areas :

http://www.aic.gov.au/crime_types/violence/domestic.html

I'm sorry to have been so long but I think it is important to take all these factors into account when comparing the ability of heterosexual and homosexual couples to raise children.

The male partner in a heterosexual couple is generally the genitor of the children but not necessarily a competent and caring father. He may even be far worse than that and cause life-long harm to the children.

Whereas in a homosexual couple, there may or may not be a male partner or a genitor but the children are generally raised in a safe environment by truly caring parents. Also, it should be noted that children raised by homosexual couples are usually heterosexual just like children of heterosexual couples.

May I conclude that, as often is the case, there are advantages and disadvantages to both heterosexual and homosexual couples and neither should be considered better or worse than the other - at least so far as raising children is concerned.

And, hopefully, those of us who are of religious disposition may, perhaps, finally conclude, one of these days, that it's the Creator that done it and that's the way it is.

But, not to worry, ttbn, I don't expect that that will come to pass during our lifetime !

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