Surely terrorism - any terrorism - is, on a hypothetical scale of Left to Right - on the extreme Right ? And surely, if the great majority of terrorist attacks within a country like Australia emanate from the teachings of a particular religion, then the adherents of that religion, tarred unfairly as they may be by terrorism's brush, have a duty - more than people adhering to different ideologies and religions - to do something about it ?

Or isn't there such thing as a 'community' of those adherents ?

Perhaps we need to de-contextualise this: Imagine that, instead, over the past fifteen years, a fanatical Buddhist sect had arisen bent on world domination by any means, carrying out brutal terrorist attacks all around, say, south-east Asia and in Australia.

Imagine that the Temples here were suspected of being breeding-grounds for young fascist Buddhists, persuading them to go out and kill non-Buddhists - any non-Buddhists, it doesn't really matter - as long as they intone 'Ommm' while they are knifing somebody or blowing their heads off.

Imagine that those terrorists had been responsible for murdering hundreds in hotel bombings in Thailand or Sri Lanka, including, say, a hundred Australians, and launching attacks all over the Buddhist world, kidnapping and raping thousands of non-Buddhist women and young girls.

If all this actually happened, would we be all apologetic about Buddhist terrorism, and talk about disaffected Cambodian or Vietnamese youth, how they are all getting picked on daily, or about how Buddhism was really a religion of peace ?

Would we all breezily say that 'Let's all be one community, Buddhists have no special obligation for curbing this terrorism, we all have equal responsibility: after all, many Buddhists are being brutally murdered by these terrorists too' ?

No, I didn't think so.

Joe
www.firstsources.info

Mr. Singer: "The taking of life is contrary to the principles of Islam".

No it's not!

The best way to sum up the Mohammedan view is to say that while in the overall theory of Islamic world domination diplomacy is encouraged up to a point after which violence is permitted but that Sunni imperialism in it's real world application is weighted heavily toward the tactics of intimidation, coercion and violent overthrow of non Muslim society.

Prohibition on taking a person's life can be said to be a tenant of most religions. But interpretation of scripture by priest, rabbi or imam can easily put the opposite position.

This is from an article in an Israeli newspaper.

“The book Torat ha-Melekh [The King’s Teaching], which was just published, was written by Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, the dean of the Od Yosef Hai yeshiva in the community of Yitzhar near Nablus, together with another rabbi from the yeshiva, Yossi Elitzur. The book contains no fewer than 230 pages on the laws concerning the killing of non-Jews, a kind of guide for anyone who ponders the question of if and when it is permissible to take the life of a non-Jew.”

Here are a couple of their reflections;

“When we approach a non-Jew who has violated the seven Noahide laws and kill him out of concern for upholding these seven laws, no prohibition has been violated,”

and

“There is justification for killing babies if it is clear that they will grow up to harm us, and in such a situation they may be harmed deliberately, and not only during combat with adults.”

http://coteret.com/2009/11/09/settler-rabbi-publishes-the-complete-guide-to-killing-non-jews/

This settler mob are particularly nasty even to the extent of radicalizing a student to fire a Qassam rocket at a neighbouring Palestinian village.

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/749/429.html

But the book has earned the imprimatur of a number of other leading rabbis and continues to be distributed.

In truth Israel is one of the least religious nations on this earth ranking in the top 30 for irreligiousness with a Gallop poll showing that over half the population does not hold to a religion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_by_country

There is a very real sense that the 'walling out' of the rabidly religious whether in Gaza or in West Bank settler communities is the manner with which sectarian Israel is dealing with this blight.

Fancy, Singer daring to criticize Islam over its propensity towards violence. Isn't Singer a supporter of one of the most violent nations on Earth: Israel (which is closely followed by the U.S.A.)

Currently, the IDF is carrying out a bit of genocide against the Palestinians whose land in the main they have stolen.

Does Singer have any idea what 'hypocrisy' means?

Does he, as a Jew, understand what 'Thou shall not kill' means?

You're right, Steele, such vile and backward injunctions and practices should be condemned just as much as we - you and I and everybody - should condemn the equally vile and backward injunctions of the more conservative and fascist aspects of Islam, like al-Qa'ida or ISIS or Al-Shabaab or Boko Haram or the Taliban or ..... Or Buddhism. or Hinduism.

What is a cornerstone of these backward ideologies is their exclusivity - that 'community' is only for 'members': non-members are looked on as not really human, to be exterminated if and when required. This is in complete contrast to the Christian story of the Good Samaritan -of somebody who goes out of his way to help someone else who is NOT of his own 'community'. Now, that's MY kind of Christian, as an atheist :)

You may wish to spend a couple of hours combing through the Koran for any similar story. Please let me know if you find one. And if you don't, I expect you will follow up your post by an equal condemnation of those exclusivist and tribal aspects of Islam.

You may object that Kurds are mostly Muslim and they obviously ha e gone out of their way to help Yazidis and Christians. But, one could object, they do that NOT AS MUSLIMS, but as decent and wonderful human beings, as universalists, prepared to put their lives on the line for others, other not of their 'own' group.

Now, to me, THAT is the definition of 'progressive', and I earnestly hope that the US, Britain and Australia will soon de-list Kurdish groups like the PKK and YPG and YPG as so-called 'terrorist' groups, a complete absurdity and a scandal.

Cheers,

Joe

David G,

Here you are again, with your hateful and embarrassing anti-Semitism.

You don't even know anything about Jews. They are not into the Christian bible or the 10 Commandments. Some Christians even call Jews 'Christ killers'.

Your hate-filled mind doesn't hide your ignorance from anyone. You are merely a racist bigot and Jew-hater. You would have made a brilliant National Socialist in another time and country.

Your wild description of Israel as "one of the most violent on Earth" firmly puts you in the idiot class, as does your dig at America, with its do-nothing, pro-Islam wet President.

Hi David F.,

I know it's probably invidious but if it were possible to put what is going on in Israel on a scale, along with, say, the Burmese oppression of Muslims in Arakan (Rakhine), and the brutality of ISIS in Syria an Iraq, where do you reckon they each would rank ?

I look forward to your equal, or stronger, condemnation of the extreme right-wing fascists in the ISIS-controlled areas. No rush :)

Cheers,

Joe

ttbn, switch on your telly and you'll see lots of evidence showing the extent of Israeli brutality and genocide.

I'm sorry that you only have one eye and less than zero sympathy for the Palestinians whose land the Jewish invaders and occupiers have misappropriated.

P.S. Do you wear a black hat and bob up and down often?

Dear Loudmouth,

I'm afraid your call to be even handed falls a little flat when you fail to include Christianity in your list.

I have reflected on Hitler's words before on this forum;

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

Indeed he had a reasonably sheltered though progressive upbringing and “Not until my fourteenth or fifteenth year did I begin to come across the word 'Jew,' with any frequency, partly in connection with political discussions”.

And his early views regarding Jewish people was benign at worse, welcoming at best. As a young artist in Vienna he made this observation about the local newspapers; “...the tone, particularly that of the Viennese anti-Semitic press, seemed to me unworthy of the cultural tradition of a great nation.”

It took the then Christian Mayor of Vienna Dr. Lueger to radicalise a young Hitler;

“I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.”

“The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times.”

“How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all.”

Cont..

Cont..

For a more recent examples the Rwandan genocide occurred in arguably the most Christianised nation in Africa and had priests and nuns extolling the death squads from the pulpit.

Or the Christian death camps of Yugoslavia where thousands of Muslim prisoners were systematically slaughtered.

But you asked me about who I condemn. That is easy. Time and time again on this forum I have raised the issue of Saudi Arabia. This is a barbaric nation whose leadership only holds on to power by the influence of countries like Australia and the US. Their poisonous brand of Islam infects Muslim communities around the world. Their treatment of women, guest workers, and minorities is appalling. That the US and the UK could not only support but actively lobby to have them recently appointed as the head of the UN human rights is just breath taking.
http://www.rt.com/news/317004-saudi-uk-human-rights-deal/

Australia should treat them as we did South Africa. Their sporting teams should not be permitted to play here, their oil should be boycotted and we should be putting pressure on both the UK and the US to distance themselves from this insidious country.

Hi Steele,

Yes, fine, add those Christians if you wish. Now is there any chance that you might say a word or two about ISIS, surely the worst fascists around at the present time ?

Interesting that you mention 'Yugoslavia': I recall that, at the time throughout the nineties, the left was wetting itself not to attribute any blame to the fascist Serbs under Milosevic (I lost some 'leftist' friends over that, and over Timor as well: go figure). So is there any chance that you might call it like it was: Serbs, not 'Yugoslavs', against Bosnians, using religion as a cover ? Let's not forget the Croats as well, doing the same thing. Yes, indeed.

As for Rwanda, I don't recall that religion was relevant, apart from the by-the-way that there were Christians on both sides. As a left-hander, I suspect that most of the killers were right-handed, but I don't think that was relevant either.

Now can we get back to the essence of what is going on in the Middle east ? As for Palestine, a comparative piddle in a tea-cup, the Palestinians seem to be bringing whatever is to come on themselves by

(a) refusing to recognise the existence of Israel (and what does that usually indicate, the refusal to recognise the Other's existence, if they had the chance ?) and

(b) doing whatever they can to provoke an Israeli response, including random terrorist knifings: real heroes ?

Meanwhile, the Kurds are taking much of the strain in fighting the ISIS fascists, in a far, far bigger struggle than that which the Palestinians are trying to provoke.

Steele, would you say that the Kurds are more progressive than Hamas ? I think so, and, for laying down their lives against ISIS, they deserve our admiration far, far more than a bunch of terrorists with knives.

Cheers,

Joe

David G.

I suppose you are talking about the violence started by the Muslims. And, no: I do not bob up and down wearing a funny hat, nor am I Jewish; I just have more sympathy for the Jews and Israelis than I do for Palestinians. It's impossible to have "less than zero" sympathy, but, yes, I do certainly have zero sympathy for Palestinians. As for the Israelis "stealing" their country from them, well that's just another demonstration of your ignorance. Palestinians and Palestine is a farce concocted by Syria to get rid of people who didn't know who they were, what they were called, and where they were supposed to be living. Blaming Israel for merely protecting itself from these terrorists is just more BS from the Left to cover their anti-Semitism. It's the same BS that Hitler and the rest of your Nazi mates made up to cover their atrocities.

Dear Loudmouth,

“By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims, the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the 40,000 Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity.”
Theodor Meron

What would you have me say about ISIS? It is quite obvious what they are, a cult to whom predominately Sunnis in the region have sided with because they have very few other options.

Are they worse than the Assad regime? Pound for pound undoubtedly yes but Assad has maimed, massacred, tortured, and gassed his way through at least 5 times as many victims.

Should Australia be assisting those impacted by ISIS? Of course, but only as part of a multilateral force.

Australians should be informed the price for involvement will be an increased likelihood of an attack on Australians here and abroad. I for one think it is worth the risk but I would like it to be something we decide as a nation.

The Palestinians were prepared to recognise the state of Israel back in the Arafat days. The Israelis went away returning with a new demand, that the Palestinians recognise Israel as a “Jewish” state. Impossible when Israel is 20% Muslim. The Israelis are determined not to recognise or permit a Palestinian state.

With the Kurds it really does depend on which side of the Turkish border you reside. The PKK has been responsible for planting bombs on buses, suicide bombings and other terrorist activities. But if a PKK member was to slip back over the border into Iraq and point his weapon at an ISIS fighter he is alright in your eyes.

This is the same world view that allows you to ignore the issue of Saudi Arabia. 'They are on our side so they are okay!'. Meanwhile they heavily fund extremism and terrorism around the world without sanction.

It stinks.

I saw a video yesterday supposedly of a Palestinian drive up onto the footpath and run down two Jews. He jumped out the car with a butcher's knife and started crazily hacking into a third. Two armed bystanders arrived on the scene shortly after, and the perpetrator was shot several times. As he crawled away dying, one of the armed bystanders put another one in him to finish him off.

Then I saw a video of a Palestinian who was detained by the by several IDF soldiers sitting on a roadside kerb. The Palestinian jumps up, produces a knife from the back of his jeans and plunges it deep into the neck of one of the soldiers interrogating him.

But then I saw a video of a Palestinian woman in a bustop surrounded by 4 or 5 IDF soldiers with their guns aimed at her. She clearly had her hands in the air for some time and the IDF just shot her dead in cold blood anyway.

And we cant forget the story a few weeks back where a Jew threw a molotov cocktail into a Palestinians home burning a sleeping child alive.

I support freedom and liberty for all people, so I frown upon all of these instances.

The Palestinians are going on a bit of a revolt lately and the authors video helps put these events into perspective a little, but its fair to suggest that Israel has also helped provoke it.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/sam-bahour/palestinians-must-not-fall-into-this-trap-again

http://www.timesofisrael.com/disguised-as-stone-throwers-undercover-israeli-forces-arrest-palestinians/

Same old, same old. Start talking about Islam and the danger it holds for western civilisation and the usual suspects start shouting that those people over there are just as bad. It doesn't much matter who is tarred - Jews, US, Britain, Christian. Just so long as the issue (ie Islam) is avoided.

Well, when a Jew or a Christian or a Buddhist or a Scientologist or a Zoroastrian or whatever commits an act of terrorism in Oz then I'll start to worry about that group. But at the moment the only group in Oz killing innocents in the name of their God is the Islamists and these are the people we have to confront.

We keep getting told their's is a religion of peace, the violence has nothing to do with Islam. Yet Islam's holiest books sanction and encourage violence against the infidel. Islam's founder was a murderous thug and yet is considered to be exemplary.

Islam is the problem and bringing more of its followers here is the very opposite of the solution.

re Armchair Critic wrote....

"But then I saw a video of a Palestinian woman in a bustop surrounded by 4 or 5 IDF soldiers with their guns aimed at her. She clearly had her hands in the air for some time and the IDF just shot her dead in cold blood anyway."

The women had her hands in the air brandishing a knife, not surrendering. The soldiers were telling her to drop it. She refused. They shot her in her lower extremities. She was moderately wounded and evacuated to hospital for treatment. NOT KILLED. Facts matter, at least to some.

Facts do matter.

I guess there's conflicting stories in the media on this issue as the article I read claimed she was unarmed, and also the title of the youtube video says she was killed.

http://www.imemc.org/article/73322

I'm not sure this is the same article I read yesterday as there was also another video of the incident from a different angle.
In either case the quality of the video was poor or there were IDF personnel in the way.

I've looked and seen there are other versions of this story.
I didn't intentionally mislead anyone but I must say their were at least 8 armed men there.

They didn't necessarily have to shoot her.

As with (almost) all Muslims, Sheikh Charkawi lies about what the Quran says. He desperately wants to find verses that urge peace, but in the lack thereof, he makes them up.

Mr Charkawi, The verse you tried to quote is for the Jews, not Muslims. I have never seen a Muslim quote the whole verse because "taking the life of a human being" is condemned for the Children of Israel, not Muslims. In fact, in the next verse, Muslims are told to not just kill but to torture those who oppose Islam. Note also that Muslims are put on earth by Allah "to kill and be killed"(9:111).

As to hurting a tree, it is not in the Quran. It does say that Mohammed either cut or left standing trees to disgrace the infidels. According to the hadith, this verse was given because Mohammed's followers were shocked by his brutal tactics of total warfare, because up to then burning fields and trees was taboo in Arabia.

This is why the current invasion of the West by Muslims will end badly. They come and bring Mohammad ("I am made victorious with terror") and Allah ("I will cast terror...") in their hearts. They will not integrate and they will not live in peace with us. Our leaders are fools and so are we, obviously. Bad times are coming. Blood will flow.

A world wide problem created by the regressives and now are dumb enough to realise their are no solutions. Look anywhere that Islam has any population base in Western nations and you have death and apologist. You have sensible men like Mike Baird having to parrot ' Islam is a religion of peace' knowing true well that history shows the exact opposite. You can understand Turn bull parroting such nonsense because it fits with his fairytale ideology. Pig headed politicians were warned decades ago. They are deceived enough to think that they can appease people who hate western culture. Look at all the help Israel has given to the Arabs. In return their kids are blown up in cafes. Fools like david g feed off propaganda calling evil good and good evil. The only way to minimise damage in Australia is to stop further Islamic immigration. Unfortunately that means some peaceful muslims miss coming here but the ideology needs to be kept to a minimum.

Hi kactuz,

You wrote "Mr Charkawi, The verse you tried to quote is for the Jews, not Muslims...."

I wonder if you could give us chapter:verse for this quote. I'd really like to see it in full context to understand the deception that the Muslim leaders engage in.

Hi mhaze,

Here are a few verses, some before and some after, the one that kactuz referred to - the Surah (No. V) is called 'The Table Spread', one of the more peaceful Surahs from Medina [this is the Pickthall transalation, 1953] - note the peace and sweetness and light in each verse:

......

'29. Lo ! I would rather thou shouldst bear the punishment of the sin against me and thine own sin and become one of the owners of the Fire. That is the reward of evil-doers.

'30. But (the other's) mind compose on him the killing of his brother, so he slew him and became one of the losers.

'31. Then Allah sent a raven scratching up the ground, to show him how to hide his brother's naked corpse. He said: Woe unto me ! Am I not able to be as this raven and so hide my brother's naked corpse ? And he became repentant.

'32. For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, I shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), but afterwards many of them became prodigals in the earth.

'33. The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.

'34. Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.'

I hope you can make sense of it. It all sounds a bit too psychotic for me :)

Joe

David G said;
Currently, the IDF is carrying out a bit of genocide against the Palestinians whose land in the main they have stolen.

I suggest you try a bit of history before bashing the keyboard.
The Jews lived in that area thousands of years before the Arabs came
out of Arabia. After Islam was established in the 7th century they set
upon invading other parts of the peninsular. They killed all the Jews
in towns to the North of Medina & Mecca or converted them to Islam.
The area you call Palestine did not exist then, it was Israel/Judea.
In the early Middle Ages the Arabs invaded Israel.
This is what prompted the Crusades.
The moslems ultimately defeated the Christians & the Jews and ruled
there until the Ottomans took over.

The Koran has a clause that states that any land conquered by moslems
remains moslem land forever even if the moslems are driven out.

It is that the moslems use as an excuse to refer to the Jews as occupiers.
You really can't get away with saying black is white and expect everyone to believe you.

I once made the comment "Why should the Palestinians recognise Israels right to exist" and all the pro-Israel people jumped all over me like I was the reincarnation of Hitler.

I wasnt necessarily saying that Israel did not have the right to exist in their historical homeland, but moreso that they have gone about it the wrong way, right from the start.

And I also believe that if Israel really wants all the Palstinian land, without any remorse of how they have gone about it in the past, then they will have to murder every last Palestinian to get it.

I think Israel purposely stirs up trouble with the Palestinians in order to provoke them into acting like extremists, and then uses it as justification to attack them and take more land.

And ultimately I believe it is a mistake to fully recognise Israels right to exist without Israel proposing and stating its official borders first.

Now I know the pro-Israel side will come out screaming Anti-Semite or Hitlerite, but hear me out logically.

If Israel is not prepared to state its borders, then its fair to say it has more plans for land acquisition.
If this is the case then you can't realistically accept the notion that Israel genuinely wants peace.

Well I myself do not know what the Jews claim to be their homeland.
I think in historical times, eg 1000 BC there were other peoples in the
area. The people in what is now Iraq and Syria, Mesopotamia, were not
originally Arabs but perhaps of the same group as Turks & or Assyrians.
However the Arabs conquered them all and they became moslems.

Of course the Persians stirred the pot.
Anyway certainly Jews had a primary claim to the area we know as
Palestine.
They had that claim long before the Arabs came on the scene.
So who are the occupiers ?

Here is a bit of irony, many in this country who claim us ex-Europeans
are invaders call Jews occupiers, wheee !

Hi Bazz,

At the time of the Arab invasions of what is now Iraq and Syria, most people were Jews, Syriacs, Christians and other groups like Yazidis, and ethnically Iraq tended to be Kurdish and Persian. Of course, Saladin, Salah-ud-Din was a Kurd, from Tikrit.

From faulty memory, I think I checked out once the latest information on the genetic makeup of Iraqis and it seems that the mitochondrial DNA, i.e. of the women, tended 80 % to be Kurdish and Persian, while the male DNA, the Y chromosome, tended to be 80 % Arab.

I guess that that's what 'invasion' means.

Joe

Dear mhaze,

You wrote;

“Well, when a Jew or a Christian or a Buddhist or a Scientologist or a Zoroastrian or whatever commits an act of terrorism in Oz then I'll start to worry about that group. But at the moment the only group in Oz killing innocents in the name of their God is the Islamists and these are the people we have to confront.”

That is completely understandable.

Let me pose a question along the lines of Loudmouth's first post.

What is instead of our government coddling up to genocidal regimes, either by giving them warships (Sri Lanka) or failing to vote with a UN motion condemning their continued occupation (Israel), we decided to militarily intervene to stop the slaughter of thousands upon thousands of civilians. How long do you think it would be before we faced reprisals from resident Jewish or Buddhist people?

For instance Israel was born via the terrorist bomb and ethnic massacres. Why would they disavow themselves of such a successful program if their backs were to the wall.

Since Gulf War 1 we have spent the last quarter of a century dropping bombs on Muslims in the Middle East, with progressively less and less legitimacy, particularly after the couple of hundred thousand Iraqis we helped slaughter because of a wee 'oops' moment around us believing a lie about weapons of mass destruction.

Australian aircraft are even now dropping bombs from altitudes that keep them safe from retaliation. Is it any wonder the group on the receiving end would seek other means to do our citizens harm?

My point is this, just as the actions of a heavily Christian Germany slaughtering Jews by the millions, or the genocidal slaying of tens of thousands of Tamils by the Buddhists in Sri Lanka, or the massacres of thousands of civilians in the Gaza strip by Jews from Israel, should not drive us to stereotype these faiths, neither should the actions of Islamic extremists, particularly in war torn areas, permit the tarring of all Muslims.

Loudmouth,
Not sure this has bearing on your DNA stats, but from what I understand the Ottomans historically used to take Christians as slaves.

The boys would be trained to fight and armies of such would be sent back to kill the Christian relatives from where these boys came.

And the girls would be put into harems for the Sultan to breed with.

Not sure how widespread this practice was in the region at the time but from what I understand it was done so that Muslims and Christians would always hate each other.

Hi Armchair Critic,

Yes, I think there was a sort of annual levy on Christian communities up in Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Rumania and Serbia, that so many boys had to be given up to become meat for the Janissaries, and so many girls had to be given up as meat for the various harems. For that reason only, I have a smidgen of sympathy for the Serbs in their brutal war against Kosovars. But at the time, the conquered people probably saw it as just the cost of being conquered people, no big deal, that's how life was. And some Janissaries became very powerful and wealthy.

Hi Steele,

I had become anti-China long before the brutal attacks on Tamils in Sri Lanka got going. Without Chinese support, the Rajapaksa clique would have had a much harder job. We'll see now how it goes now.

As for 'Gulf War 1', I was 100% on the side of the Yanks back then and regret only that the earlier Bush didn't go right to Baghdad, as under international law, he had every right to do.

Of course by 2003, none of us believed the idiot claims that Saddam was supporting Islamists or his own self-inflated BS that he had all manner of dreadful weapons - that's the usual puffery of dictators [note the Wizard of OZ behind his screen: that movie's on again tonight by the way], so I marched against the upcoming invasion in early March 2003. I thought the planned invasion was a distraction from the legitimate war in Afghanistan against Al Qa'ida and the Taliban, and I still do.

[TBC]

[continued]

I don't know that Nazis were particularly Christian (more like Gothic-Nordic-Aryan), or that the Rajapaksa mob was particularly Buddhist, any more than any of them were left- or right-handed. But Islamists are - perhaps when they singing out 'Allahu Akbar !' gosh, that might be a clue - just might be signalling 'Islamist'.

Put a flag up in the window and that might be a vague signal, but call me paranoid. Perhaps when you walk around in 'traditional' clothes after blowing some bloke's head off calling out 'Allah Akbar!', and perhaps when you ram a knife into an old woman's back calling out 'Allah Akbar!', I don't know but just maybe there might be a connection between the action and the declaration of faith.

You know, Steele, if there were some crazy Italian drug-oriented gang which carried out multiple random killings all over Australia, and each killer had, say for argument's sake, a 'Ndragheta' tattoo and could easily be linked back to Calabria and Griffith, you may be inclined - without being all that anti-Italian - to conclude that Mafia drug gangs were trying to terrorise the Australian populace and break the determination of the AFP (i.e. the Australian Federal Police).

Thankfully, the Italian-Australian population have been hard-working and generous people, contributing so much to the enrichment and prosperity of Australia as a whole. But just suppose: if that hypothetically was going on, week after week, wouldn't you have the tiniest suspicion that something wasn't right within that community ?

And why on earth should it be the ask of the 'whole community' to patch up the problems of the Islamic community ? What, the Chinese community ? The Indigenous community ? The Dutch community ? Why the hell should it be their task ? Why on earth shouldn't it be obviously MAINLY the obligation of the Muslim community, or communities, to patch up the problems which their own members are causing for so many others ?

Of course, we should give them a hand, but the primary responsibility is still with the Muslim communities, nobody else.

Joe

Loudmouth, I am afraid Steele is one of those "Useful Idiots" that
please and help the moslems in their works.

Everywhere they exist making all sorts of excuses to confuse what
should be the main effort against the Islamic political threat.
If they every get control it is always the "Useful Idiots" that get
the chop first as they have demonstrated their uselessness.

The Islamic threat is as much a political campaign as a religious one.
Make no mistake there would be no parliaments or parties or courts.
No constitution all that is Haram (forbidden) to moslems.

H Sgteele,

I'm grying to follow your logic here:

"Australian aircraft are even now dropping bombs from altitudes that keep them safe from retaliation. Is it any wonder the group on the receiving end would seek other means to do our citizens harm?"

Are you suggesting that ISIS should not be confronted ? And worse still, [or better still, from a fascist standpoint] are you suggesting that 'the group on the receiving end', i.e. ISIS and its supporters in the Muslim community, is thereby entitled to kill in Australia and elsewhere, at random ?

You may need to clarify that statement :) We wouldn't want to get the idea that 'leftists' totally support ISIS, would we ? The 'left' supporting the extreme-right ? Surely unimaginable. Although it wouldn't be the first time. Somebody should start to compile a Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Useful Idiots. Ten volumes to begin with.

Joe

SteeleRedux,

I think that much of what you wrote was pure bollocks eg " Israel was born via the terrorist bomb..."; "couple of hundred thousand....slaughter[ed] " etc.

But its also beside the point. What happens in other parts of the planet shouldn't affect civil relationships in Aust. It absolutely doesn't licence or sanction retaliation by some disaffect group in Aust against innocent Australians for perceived slights against their erstwhile brethren in other parts of the world.

When we accept or give sanctuary to people claiming to be fleeing problems in their own country, we have a right to expect that they leave those problems behind and accept the mores of their saviour nation. IF they want to continue to fight the fights of their homeland, let them stay in or return to their homeland. Not carry the battle into our streets and cafes.

The Victorian premier said ..."All of us...have to accept that violent extremism is part of a contemporary Australia."

Well I don't want it to be part of contemporary (or future) Oz.I want those who perpetrate violence extremism in OZ to be confronted and defeated. If that's Buddhists or Callithumpians or whatever then I want them defeated and removed from our society. At the moment it means Islamists. They have no place in out society.

I want them confronted. I want to stop taking more of them. I want their leaders forced through societal pressure to confront the extremism and radicalisation. I want their parents to actively educate the potentially radicalised youth that this has no place in their new homeland. I want those who want tofight for Allah to be allowed, even encouraged, to do in Syria and Iraq and then barred from returning to Oz once they've had their fill of Yazidi sex slaves.

We made a terrible terrible mistake when we thought we could take people from an alien and supremacist culture and turn them into good civil law-abiding members of the Aust society. Japan doesn't have a muslim problem because they didn't make that mistake. We have to be ruthless in correcting our error.

The solution to Europes problems with
the Islamists and the middle East is
to make Putin and Russia an Allie,

They after all are European too,and they have no liking
for the muslims given their problems in Chechnya.

Also let Putin determine strategy, he understands
the workings and historical tribal alliances in
that part of the world going back to the time of the ottoman
empire and the bloody massacres committed by muslims against
Europeans AND Europeans against muslims, much better than
commanders in the West.

I suspect that it is not monetary incentive that is causing Russia
to support Assad, it is tribal allegiances going back centuries.
In fact Assad and those around him, look a lot more Serbian or
part European to me than other Arab tribes in the region.

Let Putin control the whole war against Isis and the troublemaking
muslim nations, it will be won and over before Christmas.

Lock all the civil libertarians and hippy-do-good nutters up for a
while to shut them up, so the job can be done the only way that a war can be fought and one.
We have allowed these people and the academics to teach hippy doctrine & ideaology as facts in Western schools, and this is making us allow our European nations to be torn down and pulled apart by islamists and people who use this ideaology against us.

They understand the physcology of the West, after all a lot of the Islamist leaders have been educated by and lived in Western countries, so now they are a more dangerous enemy than they would have been if we hadn't welcomed them with open arms because of the indoctrination of our people
by the the green,hippy, love and peace ideaology,that championed multiculturalism without controls.

The only ones gaining from those ideas are our enemies.

Dear Loudmouth,

Just because Bazz flounces on in, does a little poop in the corner, then flounces back out, doesn't mean you have to adopt the same tone.

Why did you even ask; “Are you suggesting that ISIS should not be confronted ?”

This is what I wrote earlier;

“Should Australia be assisting those impacted by ISIS? Of course, but only as part of a multilateral force. Australians should be informed the price for involvement will be an increased likelihood of an attack on Australians here and abroad. I for one think it is worth the risk but I would like it to be something we decide as a nation.”

I know you read it so why the fun and games?

The US, with Australia has been engaged in a strategy of 'funnelling'. Their intent has not been to terminally incapacitate ISIS but to make sure they engage Assad's forces and not the CIA backed rebel groups. It suited the US avowed aim of bringing down the Assad regime but it left ISIS far stronger than it should have been. This is why Russia has managed in such a short space of time to inflict more damage on ISIS that the US lead group of nations.

A multi national force may well have stopped the US geopoliticing for its own ends which is why I called for Australia to be part of just that sort of group. Combating ISIS needs the focus and coordination of as many nations as possible. We are not getting that by a long shot.

Dear mhaze,

You might need to explain exactly what you think is bollocks. If you read about the forming of the state of Israel you will find plenty of terrorism and wide spread ethnic cleansing occurring. Are you saying neither of these things happened? Or is it you doubt the numbers of dead in the Iraqi war, a total mind you that is still being added to?

You wrote;

“Japan doesn't have a Muslim problem.”

Well neither do we. We do have a problem with Islamic Extremism and of the far reaching tentacles of the cult of ISIS.

Most pertinently though Japan isn't dropping bombs on the heads of ISIS. We are.

In WW2 we were dropping bombs on Italians and Germans and we interned about 20% of the nationals of these countries in our own camps.
http://naa.gov.au/collection/snapshots/internment-camps/index.aspx#section2

Is there a case for expelling non-residents who preach hate in this country? Of course. Is there a case for penalising residents who preach hate and incite violence here as well. Most certainly.

Yet I when called for Monis to be sanctioned for sending hate mail to our soldiers Bazz leapt to his defence basically saying his right to do so was inviolate. Unlike some you will not find me backing away from toughening laws around incitement in this country, especially the religious variety.

Cherful,

Perhaps you're having a lend of us :)

Where to start ?

1. This is not a struggle against Islam per se, but a very complex struggle against both dictatorship AND Islamist fascism: many people are caught up in the middle, and it's those people who the Russians will help to slaughter first.

2. The Russians' intention is to support Assad, and thereby their bases. They will 'manage' ISIS and incite it against the Kurds, one they have destroyed any 'moderate' forces. Putin is in no hurry to tackle ISIS.

3. There are many Muslim republics in what is loosely called 'Russia', especially in the Caucasus, taking up perhaps a quarter of its 'European' area. And then there are many independent central Asian republics.

That's enough for now :)

Joe

Thanks Steele,

Sorry, I misunderstood you - it pays to read other people's posts fully before rushing in :)

But no, I don't think that the US is going soft on ISIS and hard on Assad, I think it's trying to play a muddled game of going after both at once. And having tried to catch fleas in that way just to get a good night's sleep, I agree that it doesn't work.

Yes, if I understand you correctly, it would have been the best of a huge mess if the Yanks could have worked out some sort of truce between the groups that they support and Assad, in order to combat the far more dangerous enemy, ISIS. Perhaps it's a bit late now.

Clearly, the Russians are going to cream the 'moderates' long before they get stuck into ISIS. They may even not bother about ISIS, just contain them in Syria and come to some dirty deal with them to focus on the Kurds and on Iraq. After all, they may not want to antagonise the Turks by Attacking ISIS, and could 'co-operate' with them in blitzing the Kurds, an unofficial Russia-Assad-Turkey-ISIS coalition against the Kurds. The Turks could probably live with that and I wouldn't put anything past Putin. But on the other hand, he's only got a few years before Russia as a whole goes down the tubes.

It's going to be a turbulent couple of decades :(

Joe

Dear Loudmouth,

No problems, it's happened to me as well.

Thought you might like this little cartoon sent to me by my uncle.

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/pkw4.jpg

Probably not that far from the truth at the moment.

Of course there is little love lost between Putin and the Saudis:

“Monday's terrorist bombings only 400 miles (640 kilometers) away from the site of the Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia, have a geopolitical back story involving implied threats from Saudi Arabia's intelligence chief Prince Bandar bin Sultan to Russian President Vladimir Putin last summer when Bandar was pressing Putin to withdraw his backing for the Syrian government.
According to a diplomatic leak detailing the Bandar-Putin meeting in Moscow on July 31, Bandar suggested that Putin's agreement to abandon the government of Bashar al-Assad would lead Saudi Arabia to restrain its Chechen terrorist clients who have been attacking Russia targets for years. Putin reportedly grew furious, interpreting Bandar's offer as a warning that the Sochi games would be threatened by terrorism if Putin didn't comply, according to opednews.com website.”
http://en.alalam.ir/news/1551009

Not that it is all smooth sailing between the Syrians and the Russians;

“Russia's Orthodox Church voiced support for Putin's decision to carry out air strikes in Syria against ISIS, calling it a "holy battle" for protecting the Christians in the region.”

A Syrian opposition leader relied with;

“The Orthodox Church’s call for a holy war in Syria warrants a declaration of jihad. The Orthodox Church described Putin’s battle in Syria as ‘holy’, meaning a crusade war… A ‘holy’ war requires a call for jihad.”

http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/russian-orthodox-church-backs-holy-war-against-isis/article/445605

I would be interested on your opinion regarding the difference between a Holy War and a Jihad. Pretty much the same in my book.

Call it muddled if you like but I think it is widely accepted the US they has been playing silly buggers with ISIS and that the Russians have been far more effective with far fewer weapons in a far shorter span of time. Time will indeed tell.

Hi Steele,

Yeah, when there aren't many 'progressives' around, all the worst reactionary forces come out, don't they ? The Russian Orthodox church has always sided with the most autocratic forces in Russia, from the Tsars right down to, well, the new Tsar: Tsar, Church and State, the unholy trinity of reaction.

But no, I don't think that Russia's strategy is to destroy ISIS, just contain it in Syria: the Iranians will have to do the heavy lifting against ISIS in Iraq and eastern Syria. In fact, we may well see some grumbling by Iran that Russia isn't doing enough against their mortal enemy. i.e. Iran's, not Russia's. Hmmmm, maybe there's an opening there for the Yanks ?

I'm much more worried about what Russia, Assad, Iran, Turkey and ISIS (with covert Saudi support) - yet another unholy alliance - will try to do to the Kurds who, for all their internal squabbles (which I recall from fifty years ago, between the Talabanis and the Barzanis) are the only remotely progressive forces in the entire Middle East.

So yes, clearly holy war = jihad, of the worst sort.

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Joe