More rubbish from the arch Zionist,settler supporter and backer of the murderous Israeli Govt,go live there Dave its getting tedious

Bird's fur, horse feathers and risible rubbish!

It seems you're more concerned with a peaceful means that literally forces Israel, to seek a permanent peace, than with the rising casualty count/death toll!

And if the non violent means succeed, then the immigration program and the Gerrymander it alone enables will end!

Meaning, the only thing likely to change is the last remaining vestiges of Jewish control in the nation of Israel! The real objective?

Better a workable peace deal and a two state solution be nutted out long before that happens.

And don't expect the BDS to end or wind back before that occurs, just endlessly amplify!

Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.
Rhrosty.

I agree with Mr Singer, BDS is an outrage, it's not playing by the Zionist rules.

David, the game is up and the chickens are coming home to roost.

Galatians 6:7-9King James Version

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

David

Ah, BDS! It's wonderful. It's a weapon that Israel can't bomb or occupy.

The finding that Israel committed war crimes when last it carpet-bombed Gaza is instructive.

Hams was also found guilty of war crimes because it fired rockets, 95% of which exploded harmlessly in various fields.

Yeah, when it comes to war crimes, Israel wins every-time!

//Yeah, when it comes to war crimes, Israel wins every-time!//

In which parallel universe? The Japanese beat them hands down:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes

But why let the fact stand in the way of a bit of good-old-fashioned Jew-bashing?

Hi David Singer

Hang in there. Little do the ignorant of the OLO commentariat know.

Zionism is a term of respect for people (often leftwing) who searched for a home for Jewish people oppressed by people like some of the OLO commenters.

Time for 'Hatikva' (Hope) sung by the very lovely Shiri Maimon https://youtu.be/ian_NCV4aCM .

Regards

Pete

John Ryan,

You have the right to free speech but boy, are you the big hater! Good mate for David G who wants Israel wiped of the face of the earth: really rational and thoughtful contributions from both of you. Do you have any connection to the National Socialist party, by the way?

Actually, the BDS campaign is nothing more than a new page in the age-old campaign by Jew-haters (Muslims and certain Christians, atheists, liberals, fascists, etc…) to destroy the Jewish people. This is about much more than territorial occupation or illegal settlements – these are just pretexts for a campaign of hate and exclusion that is itself a small part of a larger battle of violence and extermination against the Jews by their enemies.

The fact is that even if the BDS campaign were 100% successful, and even if the State of Israel were to return to the pre-1967 borders, this would make no difference – the odium of the Islamic world and a growing part of the non-Muslim world would remain unchanged as would their goal of the destruction of the Jews, starting with the Jewish state.

Nothing Israel can do will change this and most of the Israelis know this. One cannot have peace if your enemy does not want it.

I remember more than 50 years ago sitting in church and hearing how in the “last days” the nations of the world would rise against Israel, only to be destroyed by Jehovah (Jewish version) and/or Christ (Evangelical version). Certainly there is a growing anti-Semitic movement in our world, the product of an unholy alliance between a militant, expanding Islam, the traditional fascists and now the leftist liberals, and this movement would be happy to see not just the end of Israel, but even Jewishness. It is a strange world but the scenario is interesting, is it not?

And, in all of this the state of Israel continues to prosper and the Muslim world is torn apart by hate and violence (which we import, silly us). Balaam’s blessing and curse, maybe? Jehovah vs. Allah?
.
BTW, the idea that Jordan is Palestine is, in my opinion, silly. Also I don’t think common sense or justice always prevails.

Dear Kactuz,

One can have inner peace even if one's enemy does not want it.

Nothing Israel can do will change the Muslim goal of the destruction of the Jews, starting with the Jewish state, but by withdrawing to its pre-1967 borders, Israel will regain its moral composure and inner peace and will become united, invincible and hard as diamond. As a bonus, it will then also have peace with the rest of the non-Muslim world and even with a few more moderate Muslim countries.

This is a really interesting document to get a better understanding of the inner workings of David Singers mind.

Firstly he begins with the big fear-mongering headline 'BDS is a sinister hoax with genocidal objective', and goes on to reinforce the idea of 'genocide' with his opening statement. "The Boycott Divestment and Sanctions campaign (BDS) instituted in 2005 by 'Palestinian civil Society' against Israel and its civil society continues to attract people from all around the world – including Jews and Israeli Arabs - who support the campaign without realising its genocidal objective."

I think this headline is an over-exaggeration and misleading.

Even though the BDS movement does state one of its objectives is ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands that in itself does not in any way equate to genocide. Taken from Davids own link, the whole paragraph states -
"We, representatives of Palestinian civil society, call upon international civil society organizations and people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era. We appeal to you to pressure your respective states to impose embargoes and sanctions against Israel. We also invite conscientious Israelis to support this Call, for the sake of justice and genuine peace.

These non-violent punitive measures should be maintained until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people’s inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with the precepts of international law by:

1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall
2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194."

He goes go on to reinforce the idea of Israels destruction with an Islamic perspective, (which may have merit) but hypocritically supports the exact same thing from an Israeli perspective - Palestine's complete destruction - which he does when he later states "Ms Nyusten's legal opinion also failed to consider two territory-specific provisions in international law sanctioning the right of Jews to live in the West Bank for the purposes of reconstituting the Jewish National Home there." in relation to the KLP case (Not KPL).

He then further shows his true beliefs after stating that "Ethics are not law."

This shows us that David's whole mindset and arguments come from a completely legal perspective, and that ethics and morality hold no sway whatsoever in his belief in a complete return of the Jewish peoples biblical homeland to those boundaries outlined in "The Mandate for Palestine".

This article in Haaretz puts the KLP position in a better light.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.660901

“From the perspective of international law, an assessment of this case has proved more difficult than similar assessments with respect to Western Sahara,” said Jeanett Bergan, head of responsible investment at KLP, about its divestment from Heidelberg and Cemex. “Nevertheless, the international legal principle that occupation should be temporary has carried the most weight. New exploitation of natural resources in occupied territory offers a strong incentive to prolong a conflict.”

The United Nations has condemned Israel for “depleting natural resources” from the West Bank. KLP noted that the subsidiaries of Heidelberg and Cemex “pay license fees and royalties to the state of Israel,” and that the “products deriving from the quarries are sold primarily for use in Israel’s domestic construction market.”

Its a reasonable business decision IMO for KPL to stay away from controversial investments that may generate negative publicity or invoke further legal battles in the future, as well as also being a potential political hot topic as the Norwegians 2nd largest pension fund being invested in such a contentious issue.

David may not understand ethics, but many other people do.

David tries to put forward that a persons fundamental right to choose how they spend their own money, and effectively vote with their dollars is a plan to genocide the Israeli people and is ludicrous.

He states that common sense will hopefully prevail, but what he doesn't realise is that is what BDS is all about. The voice of the people of all over the world, and of common sense prevailing.

- And he tries to say that anyone who questions or disagrees with anything not in full support of Israel must be a Jew hater or an anti-semite or racist.

For anyone that looks, Israel clearly has an almost endless amount of genuine issues that deserve discussion and criticism but they will always try avoid any such conversations on any matter that questions Israels historical track record or its moral character and imperial aspirations.

Hi Yuyutsu

You are much more optimistic than I that any country or region can attain "inner peace". Even relatively-internally peaceful Australia hasn't achieved it and our inner cynicism (which is a positive thing) doesn't expect it.

I think the problem with the Middle East is less about country actors and more about non-state actors. Violently competing tribes/ethnic groups/religious denominations. Even Sunni tribes will fight each other for scarce resources and the many Christian tribes in Lebanon have a history of fighting amongst themselves.

Jewish factions in Israel are also frequently are disunited - sometimes violently though less so with machine guns. The Jewish people of Israel since WWII started out with the searing psychological damage of the Holocaust which brutalised many. The Promise covers it well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Promise_%282011_TV_serial%29 .

The Middle East is not a place where Gandhi-like non-violence is understood. Just as India descended into the independence phenomenon of mass violence - that Gandhi was unable to stop during his last years. The benefits of Parliamentary Democracy are not self-evidently understood outside of Israel - Israel benefitting much from the balance of British culture.

The are distincly Arab peaceful traits of compromise that offer hope.

Regards

Pete

Dear Pete,

I know the middle east, thus Israel is and will remain armed to its teeth.

Combined with the unity achieved once Israel returns to its undisputed borders, no one, be they a state or otherwise, will dare to attack it, just as nobody dares to attack Switzerland, not even the Nazis dared, so in practice Israel will not actually need to use its superior weapons, only to keep them.

Dear Yuyutsu

True what you say.

Israe's nuclear deterrent, conventional military deterrent and often-implicit US military support mean that no state would attack Israel.

It is non-state terrorist-fighters with low tech weapons that seem the ongoing problem. Such threats too often fall between the cracks of Western countries. Even China and Russia have similar internal terrorist problems.

Regards

Pete

I'm really not interested in championing the rights of Palestinians until they recognise the right of Israel to exist.

Oh, you say, Israel came about through invasion ? Not really, but if so, then that was par for the course in the Middle East: pre-Islam, Mesopotamia was occupied almost entirely by Kurds and Persians; North Africa was populated by Copts and Berbers. Even Syria (including Palestine) was a diverse mixture of Christian, Kurdish and many other groups. Arabs were more or less confined to Arabia, fighting amongst themselves.

Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Israel last year - with the intention of what ? Doing no damage ?

Recognise Israel, and we can get back to common sense.

Joe

Given the 15 tunnels recently dug by Hamas and Palestinians trying to get into
Israel. It is obvious that Israel needs the occupied territories as a buffer zone.

Maybe the habit the Arabs had of blowing up school buses and other bombings
When there was no wall to stop them getting into Israel is the reason the wall was built in the first place.

Also if the Palestinians do not wish to be fired at by the Israelie army then maybe they should stop attacking Israel with rockets.

Have the sense not to keep poking a sleeping lion with a stick.

Loudmouth,
Can you or anyone else please answer me this...

And don't get all "he must be an anti-semite!" on me.
I'm really tired of that bs so I will call that out first.
http://youtu.be/z_Dc-kT4Zbc

This is a serious question.

Why should the Palestinians recognise Israel's right to exist?

//And don't get all "he must be an anti-semite!" on me.
I'm really tired of that bs so I will call that out first.//

You're not an anti-semite because you support Palestine. You're an anti-semite because you are a Holocaust denier:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=17410#307850

Piss off and spread your hateful crap on some Neo-Nazi forum where people might listen to you.

Well said Toni Lavis

Yes http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=17410&page=0#307850 says it all about AC's denial.

Where I lived in Germany was only 10km from Belsen.

All the Germans I've met (in Australia, the UK and Germany) are very much aware of, and apologetic about, the Holocaust.

Regards

Pete

I did write a response to the comments on the other thread, I just didn't post it.

I totally resent both your accusations and I have to say it disgusts and offends me, and I'm trying really hard to tolerate your abuse.

My questions and criticism of Israel, Zionism and the Jewish people has nothing to do with race, religion or anything else.
Not only would my questions and criticisms be just the same if it were any other race, I wholeheartedly assure you that these questions and criticisms would be just the same even if the EVENTS MY QUESTIONS AND CRITICISMS WERE BASED UPON were committed not only by MY FELLOW AUSTRALIANS but even if it were by MEMBERS OF MY OWN FAMILY.

But speaking of MY family...

My Great Grandfather lead men into battle on the battlefields of Gallipoli on a damn horse fighting for this country - a war that Rothschild Zionists had a hand in instigating.

WW2 was in part a direct result of WW1, with reparations and such and that Zionists had helped the US into WW1 which turned the tides on the Germans in that war, and that Germany was again becoming a strong economic and industrial power under Hitler and National Socialism.

My Grandfathers fought for this country in WW2, which was a war that Jewish / Zionists helped to PROVOKE when THEY PRONOUNCED WAR on Germany in 1933. And THEY (My Grandfathers) fought on the side that helped to LIBERATE the Jewish people from those said work or concentration camps.

My family (Not just my Great Grandfather and Grandfathers, but their brothers and sisters and even their parents) all sacrificed and endured a lot because of these wars which Zionists / Jewish people instigated, and we helped to liberate YOU.

So to imply I have no right to question events surrounding these wars disgusts and offends me, and your abusive statements add insult to injury and sicken me.

Oh.. Im an anti-semite because I'm a holocaust denier... What an absolute load of crap.

Questioning events surrounding WW1 and WW2 doesnt make a person racist.

Either way -

The Palestinian inhabitants themselves did nothing in WW1 or WW2 or otherwise that would give Zionist or Jewish people the right to conspire in the creation of wars; or make deals during or following such wars that sought to forcably take or displace the current Palestinian inhabitants from their lands.

SO - Nothing that happened in WW1 or WW2 or otherwise can be used for justification of the creation of the State of Israel in Palestine IMO.

But the Jewish people most certainly have an undeniable historic biblical connection to those lands (The Holy lands) , I will not deny that.

But if its the biblical connection and creation of a Jewish state you're using as the REAL context for Israels creation and existance then its valid to asume its imperial aspirations have regard to its biblical borders or the ones put forward in the Mandate for Palestine.

- And that Israel does not want a 2 state solution and never did, that it seeks a 'Jewish' State and to drive the Arabs off the land, by any means - even a slow genocide.

Dont call me a racist simply because I question events in history and know that you label people 'Holocaust Deniers' in order to label them 'anti-Semites' and its all just a ploy to make sure no one criticises or questions what Israel does.

Because Israel uses the Holocaust to somehow justify Israels creation to all the mass of gullible idiots (Like it even had anything to do with it if it did happen) and to stifle any dissent in that Israels REAL plan all along was to take all the land and that it never had any interest in a 2 state solution.

How can it, when it wants a 'Jewish' state and the inhabitants are Arabs.
Are you really trying to fool me that any Jewish state can be democratic?

Hi CHERFUL

Yes Israel certainly needs buffer zones.

Regards

Pete

How did you go with the prussic acid challenge, Armchair Critic?

Or are you not game to put your money where your mouth is?

Pffftt.. Lol
Yep I did and I'm I'm still thirsty...

Attack me but none of my arguments...
When it really comes down to it all you people have are insults.
You guys are essentially exactly what you are trying to suggest that I am, when I'm not.
You wouldn't dare engage in discussion over any of the arguments themselves.

//Pffftt.. Lol
Yep I did and I'm I'm still thirsty...//

Yeah, because lying is really going to help your case...

The LD50 for ingested HCN is 1-3 mg/kg body weight. If you had drunk HCN you would be dead. And there would be much rejoicing. The very fact that you are still here trying to convince us that HCN - counter to all the scientific data on the subject - is a harmless insecticide which is not highly toxic to humans demonstrates how full of crap you are.

This is why people don't want to argue with you: most people on this forum make up arguments to fit with known facts. You do it the other way around: you start with the argument and then make up facts to fit with your argument. It's impossible to have any kind of meaningful debate with the sort of person who will pretend that HCN is non-toxic because HCN being toxic doesn't fit with his argument.

It feels as though you are deliberately trying to bait me into saying something hateful towards you Toni so you call produce a real reason to scream 'anti-semite' to everyone and try to point to proof.
You may want me to drink acid and hope for me to die and rejoice in my death and feel as though some kind of extra priveligde allows you to do that but I have to be really honest here and say that I really dont hate you anyway sorry Toni.
I pity you.. I really do.

My last comment was sarcasm in case you didnt figure that out.
You should be grateful I even took the time to respond to your petty crap.

As for the fact I question some of the things from the World Wars..
Yeah so what.. Whats the big deal?

That I think Rothschild Zionists may have conspired to start or at least played a part in funding England in WW1 and that its very reasonable that one of the aims of the Zionist congress after it was formed was the re-establishment of the state of Israel - based upon its

biblical boundaries, meaning they want ALL the Palestinian land.

That as for WW2 if its a level of compassion and sympathy you ask from the world in regards to that war then is it not unreasonable in judging a level of compassion to ask how complicit the Zionists or Jews were in starting or provoking that war - given Jewish

bankers funded Hitler, and that Jews declared war against Germany in 1933.

Its not unreasonable.

Also is not unreasonable that I look at some of the things Israel has done in the past in order to try to judge its moral character and decide what sort of a nation I think Israel is?

I look at the false flag attacks.
You deliberately tried to sink a US ship (and pretended it was an attack by Egypt) in order to have the US attack Egypt.
This shows that Israel will willingly stage attacks if it furthers it Imperial ambitions.
It calls into question whether what reportedly goes on in Palestine actually does the way they say it does.
How do we know that Israel doesnt stage rocket attacks on itself for its own purposes in Palestine? (with that track record)?

Deliberately targeting kids with airstrikes?

Or Hospitals when you know they don't have any weapons in them?

And why should it be a big deal that I question things in history and you try so hard to have "an official story"?
Even right now Israel is trying to do exactly that (change the version of history) by trying to stop or oppose the UN HRC report on Gaza and distribute their own report.
They dont like that report because it implicates them in war crimes against children.
Maybe they'll be put on a bad country list and wont be able to recieve funding (rob) billions of dollars every year from the US taxpayer.
And Palestine is taking them to the International Criminal Court, and I won't be surprised if Netanyahu sends tanks into Gaza because its all he seems to know is punishment and creating fear.

So even after Israel commits atrocities, it itself tries to hide them or manipulate the story.
This most certainly shows that Israel will change the official story if it suits it's purposes.
Is it not unreasonable to suggest Israel also changed or manipulated the official story of other conflicts to suit its own agenda?

You make a big thing about me being 'anti-semite' simply because I question things from WW2.

As for the "Holocaust".
I dont accept or deny it.
To be honest I've never heard the word "Holocaust" used in a different context, so for me it seems that if I say I accept or agree, then I am agreeing to the "Holocaust" being whatever it is that you say it is.
- And I'm sorry but I do question the official story.

And if I say I disagree, you say I'm an 'anti semite'.

So basically what you are saying is that "I have to agree with whatever you say, or I'm an anti-semite"

And even if I do question some parts of the official story that does not automatically mean that I support what Hitler was purported to have done in the concentration camps, or that I support National Socialism or the Nazi's.

People in this forum have a real bad habit of doing stuff like this I've noticed.
Trying to suggest that if you support or oppose this, then you must be this.
I just judge individual issues on their own merits.

I know that millions of people died and were displaced as a result of these wars (and that Jews were the subject of gruesome medical experiments) and I don't willingly wish that any human being nor do I believe or support that anyone should have been deprived of

their liberty in any way whatsoever.

For the record my interest isnt even in anything that happened in the past, its in whats going on in the present and future.
I'm not concerned with anything in the past as there is no point worrying about things you cant change.

Is it a coincidence that Zionist documents discuss taking over Syria and breaking Iraq into pieces?
If this is true then what are her true Imperial plans?

And given that other Jews such as George Soros are funding civil unrest in Ukraine and the US and other countries does this give more or less validation since a few years back when Mel Gibson said that "Jews start all wars"?

Why does it seem that Jews and Zionists do have a hand in starting a lot of wars or starting civil unrest?

Why did Jewish bankers create the US Federal Reserve in 1913 and then loan England 400 million dollars to start WW1?

Why did Jacob Schiff fund Leon Bronstein (Trotsky) to murder the Russian royal family and establish the Bolshevik Communist Union?

Why did Jewish Bankers Oppenheimer and Warburg fund Hitler in WW2?
Did they not read Mein Kamf and realise Hitler was fircely Nationalistic?
Why did they brazenly declare war on him on his own country?

Why does heavily Jewish influenced US congress and Neocons start wars all over the M/E ?
Are we all supposed to think Israel has nothing to do with any of it?

Whats the bigger picture?
Do they just like funding wars because it makes them lots of money or is there more to it?

All these wars of the last century... All these people dying.. For what?

Whats with the connection to Freemasonry and Albert Pikes prediction of 3 World Wars?
And the wars spoken about in early Zionist Congresses?

Whats with the Islamic scholar video I've seen that states that Israel needs to create an extenal enemy so that it can fight a war in defense and say "We're surrounded by enemies - if we don't do something we all be slaughtered" to justify a military response in the region that takes over the M/E ? - taking back all your biblical homeland.

Why do alternative news sites say that Al Qaeda and ISIS are mercenaries funded and trained and set loose by US, Saudi and Israeli intelligence agencies?

Giday Armchair Critic

Its true that if you scratch an anti-Semite you find poor white trash.

Enjoy :)

#VK3AUU

Spot on.

Jew-haters in Syria, iraq, Libya,Yemen,Lebanon,Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Gaza are indeed sowing what they reaped.

The Jewish-Arab conflict could and should have been resolved in 1923 when the ground work for Arab self-determination was established in 76.9% of Mandatory Palestine (today called Jordan) - whilst the groudwork for Jewish self-determination was established in the remaining 23.1% of Mandatory Palestine (today called Israel, Gaza, Judea and Samaria (the West Bank).

The Arabs have rejected countless offers by the Jews and others in the last 92 years to resolve the conflict but still it continues in 2015 - urged on by the likes of you and other similar Jew-haters who only want to see the conflict ended with the Jews thrown into the sea and their one and only Jewish State erased from the map and replaced by a 22nd Arab State among 58 Islamic States.

All of this continuing conflict we are led to believe is continuing because the Arabs just want 100% of Gaza, Judea and Samaria for their second Arab Palestinian State in Mandatory Palestine in addition to Jordan in an area one twelfth the size of Tasmania - and are not prepared to accept the 90% that has been offered in 2000/1 and 2008 by Israel.

Besides Galatians you could have also mentioned Psalm 83:
"O God, do not keep silence;
do not hold your peace or be still, O God!
For behold, your enemies make an uproar;
those who hate you have raised their heads.
They lay crafty plans against your people;
they consult together against your treasured ones.
They say, “Come, let us wipe them out as a nation;
let the name of Israel be remembered no more!”
For they conspire with one accord;
against you they make a covenant"

Galatians certainly confirms Psalm 23.

Your knowledge of the Bible should perhaps enable you to answer the following question:

"Do you believe in the right of the Jewish people to reconstitute the Jewish National Home in their biblical homeland within secure and recognised boundaries as prescribed by Security Council Resolution 242"?

Speaking of anti-Semites...

Leaving all that conspiracy theory nonsense to one side for time being...

If HCN is so non-toxic:
# Why do the American government use it for judicial executions? More to the point, how is it possible to execute somebody with a non-toxic compound?
# How did Himmler, Göring and Rommel use it to commit suicide?
# Why was Allen Elias, CEO of Evergreen Resources, convicted of knowing endangerment for his role in the HCN poisoning of employee Scott Dominguez?

//As for the fact I question some of the things from the World Wars..
Yeah so what..//

But it's not just from the World Wars, is it AC? The laws of nature are not different during wartime. HCN is highly toxic to humans in peace and in war. This is an extremely well established fact. Which you refuse to accept because it inconveniently gets in the way of your Holocaust-denying arguments.

It's a bit like anti-vaccination activists who won't accept the overwhelming evidence of the safety & effectiveness of vaccination because it inconveniently gets in the way of their anti-Big Pharma arguments. Or young-earth creationists who ignore all the evidence which inconveniently gets in the way of their Biblical literalist argument.

You (and anti-vaxers and young-earth creationists) would rather deny well established scientific knowledge than even pause to consider whether your cherished fantasies might be incorrect. Feel free to continue, but be aware that you are making a colossal fool of yourself by doing so.

Hi Toni Lavis

I think we should be kind to Armchair Cretin.

And all dopey Fourth Reich dreamers.

Cheers

//I think we should be kind to Armchair Cretin.//

I don't. He's a nasty piece of work who trys to deny the horrific reality of the Shoah in order to portray Jews as untrustworthy and deceitful. He's an anti-Semitic piece of shyt without a shred of common deceny. He doesn't deserve compassion, or pity for his lack of intellect.

#Kactuz

You state:
"BTW, the idea that Jordan is Palestine is, in my opinion, silly"

Care to elaborate?

#Armchair Critic

You state:
"Even though the BDS movement does state one of its objectives is ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands that in itself does not in any way equate to genocide."

Care to comment on whether the following statements in any way equate to the BDS campaign threatening genocide against the Jews and the elimination of their one and only Jewish State:

1. "But I view the BDS movement as a long-term project with radically transformative potential. I believe that the ultimate success of the BDS movement will be coincident with the ultimate success of the Palestinian enfranchisement and equal rights movement. In other words, BDS is not another step on the way to the final showdown; BDS is The Final Showdown.

This belief grows directly from the conviction that nothing resembling the ‘two-state solution’ will ever come into being. Ending the occupation doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t mean upending the Jewish state itself.

- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2010/04/bds-is-a-long-term-project-with-radically-transformative-potential#sthash.bbyqyPO8.dpuf"

2. "Finkelstein rightly asks whether the real aim of BDS is to bring down the state of Israel. Here, I agree with him that it is. That should be stated as an unambiguous goal. There should not be any equivocation on the subject. Justice and freedom for the Palestinians are incompatible with the existence of the state of Israel."
http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/4289

3. “The goal of #BDS is the full restoration of Palestinian rights, not an agreement to create an artificial mini-state in order to save Zionism”

-Ali Abunimah
https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/430888024864342016

4."BDS represents three words that will help bring about the defeat of Zionist Israel and victory for Palestine"
Ronnie Kasrils
http://palestinechronicle.com/old/view_article_details.php?id=14924

#Armchair Critic

You state:
"This shows us that David's whole mindset and arguments come from a completely legal perspective and that ethics and morality hold no sway whatsoever in his belief in a complete return of the Jewish peoples biblical homeland to those boundaries outlined in "The Mandate for Palestine".

In relation to this statement:

Firstly:
"ethics" and "morality" can be open to lots of interpretations and meanings. "Law" is binding and determinative and respect for the rule of law is accepted and respected - certainly in democratic countries.

Secondly:
I could also certainly argue "ethics" to justify Jews having the same and equal rights in one State - as Moslems currently enjoy in 57 Islamic States including 22 Islamic Arab States - without relying on international law to support my claim.

Thirdly:
The PLO dismisses international law by glibly asserting:
"The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void.'

The PLO then has the gall to make continuing accusations against Israel of breaches of international law.

Is that what you term ethical or moral? Do you regard that kind of behaviour as ethical or moral?

Would you do business with an organisation with such ethics?

Fourthly:
I have not called for a complete return of the Jewish peoples biblical homeland to those boundaries outlined in "The Mandate for Palestine"

Those boundaries included what is to-day called Jordan (76.9% of the territory covered in the Mandate for Palestine) and I have never made any such suggestion that it become part of Israel.

In relation to Gaza,Judea and Samaria (West Bank) - I have proposed direct negotiations between Jordan and Israel - the two successor States to the Mandate - to divide sovereignty of those two areas represesenting 5% of the territory covered in the Mandate - between their two respective States - where sovereignty does not presently exist.

It is not ethical or moral for you to misrepresent me - so I expect you to withdraw your above statement unequivocally.

David mentioned the ".... occupation and colonization of all Arab lands .... "

Once upon a time, 'Arab lands' covered only part of the Arabian Peninsula. By 800 AD, through conquest, 'occupation and colonisation', the Arab-Islamic empire stretched from Persia through to Spain and down into Africa. At various times, the Islamic empire, through 'occupation and colonisation', stretched across Asia from Poland to Korea and Vietnam, through India and across to what is now Indonesia.

Of all imperialisms, the Arabs and Islam have the least excuse to cry about 'occupation and colonisation'.

The ancient practice (and it has to be said, of early Hebrews as well) seemed to be that, once a nation has conquered other territory, that land belonged forever to the conqueror. The Arabs certainly seem to hold to that frankly uncivilized notion even now, that what was at one time Arab (and/or Islamic) is forever Arab (and/or Islamic).

So, as long as the Arabs deny Israel the right to exist, and are obviously intent on either pushing people into the sea, or exterminating them in any other way possible, then they forfeit any right to expect support. Surely fascism must be combatted ?

Has the 'Left' become so opportunist that it would support fascism rather than a people's legitimate aspirations, certainly its right to exist ? Are there 'Islamic nations', even 'Christian nations' ? Yes. So why not a 'Jewish nation' ?

Recognise Israel, and we can go from there. After all, for all its faults, it's the only progressive, modern, healthy society in the Middle East ?

Go for it :)

Joe

There is absolutely no reason a Jewish nation should be ruled out as a concept.

The argument over Israel is to do with location.

Thats true Craig

Australia is stable politically, no nasty borders, English speaking and has a relatively low level of anti-Semitism.

If the Mid-East gets a bit too Iranian nuclear - I would enthusiastically broker a move of Israel to northern Western Australia. Similar hot climate, lots of sacred sites and the clincher is lots of Ord River water. The Israelis could also rebuild the manufacturing sector.

Netanyahu is a bugger to get on with (give him the democratic flick). But the Jewish nation have many center-leftists who Prime Ministers Tanya or Julie Bishop could negotiate with.

Cheers

A moral question for all dopey Fourth Reich droolers.

Did Hitler have it off with dogs? https://youtu.be/sqemO2yXeD0

I hadnt finished yet.

Whats with the Greater Israel Project?

Whats with these Kabbalistic Frankists?
And of wanting everything good and decent to be turned upside down?
Why does the Jewish run Hollywood always push and promote a Gay and occult agenda?

Whats with the New World Order?

Whats with the Jewish Banking system that enslaves nations by forcing them into a private central banking system that issues the public money as a loan with interest?

Whats with bringing so called 'democracy' to these countries when all you are actually bringing is a private central banking system to enslave the people and a kind of 'democracy' that allows a nation to be stripped of its natural resources, infrastructure and everything else to foreign entities?

Why is it Jewish people involve themselves in other nations politics and lobbying and take action to change such important national laws such as immigration etc?

Why does Israel try to stifle the voices of those IDF soldiers that speak out about things done against the Palestinians?

Questioning these things doesnt make me an anti semite.
It simply makes me a person who questions things and tries to understand the world.

If Israel wants to come out and explain all these things which challenge its moral standing and try to impress upon me that it really is a moral nation and that it CAN BE democratic to all its citizens and be 'Jewish' at the same time and show that it really is genuine about working things out then it's welcome to do so and convince me any day it wants.

And you all attack me like I am the one that produced all the information I question and put forward.
Tell me one thing I spoke of that you are saying I've lied about.
Everything I say I could show a link or video for it.

EVERYTHING

It seems to me that people who support Israel don't want me to have any kind of judgement of Israel at all unless it's one that they themselves create for me.

And I don't think the average Jewish person themselves are any more to blame for any of this stuff than anyone else, but the problem comes that if you try to separate Zionists from Jews and say they are both different then its really hard to make a distiction between the two when even normal Jews support the Zionist Government and the way it handles the Palestinians and were seen singing, dancing and drinking up on a hill watching down as women and children were bombed to pieces in Gaza last year.

What are you going to say that my computer is anti-semitic or that google is anti-semitic for displaying the results and information it did in my searches??

This isn't Germany where you can make a law to never discuss the Jews or the Holocaust.
People have every right under the laws in this country to question and express their opinions about things especially when it pertains to conflicts we've been involved in.
Go back there if you don't like it.

Quite honestly the way you openly say I should drink acid, that you want me to die and that you would take joy in my death says more about what type of person you are Toni than my questioning of history says about me.

I personally wouldn't wish that on anyone.

You seem to have an "End justifies the means" attitude.
That its ok to falsely accuse me of things and tell me that you hope I die and would take joy in my death.
"End justifies the means" attitude is the mindset of a TERRORIST btw.

It makes me wonder if all Jewish and pro-Jewish people have a mindset like you Toni?
The question of whether you are a moral people is slowly being answered.

I don't hate Jewish people, so fat chance finding or creating a real reason to call me anti-semite.
I just disagree with what some of them do, as with plenty of other politicians and people in power.
Your moral compass and mental health as a nation (If people like you and a few others are anything to go on) is starting to come into question though, from my perspective.

And at the end of the day, Israel HAS BEEN committing war crimes.
If the international community does nothing, then it is saying is that it condones this behavior.
You people call me anti-semitic because I support what is morally right.

Why would I support a nation that gains a financial benefit oppressing another group of people?

Israel can drop the whole sympathy act if its trying to justify the creation and existence of Israel.
WW2 has nothing to do with displacing the Palestinians.
And drop the act that the Palestinians are terrorists.
They at the very least have a right to resist whist under occupation.
How measured that is (to be realistic) probably depends of how much Israel oppresses them.

I'm entitled to my opinion and I wont bother trying to justify myself to anyone anymore.
So if you don't like what I have to say in future, lump it.

David,

1. I'd have to disagree there and say that think you may have it the wrong way around.

Ethics and morality aren't open to lots of interpretations and meanings (unless your intention is to do wrong).
"Do unto others" isn't really that big of a concept.
"Law" on the other has most certainly is open to lots of interpretations and meanings.
Law's can be created with the intention of doing harm whereas ethics and morality are a constant.

2. I myself don't have an issue with the Jewish people having a Jewish state.

What I oppose is displacing another group of people in order to achieve it.
- There's a right and wrong way to go about doing things.

(And lets face it - there's not one politician on the planet who will admit to making a mistake - so they make bad judgements worse by continuing bad policies because they don't want to admit it)

3. Maybe there is a moral case that some of these documents should be null and void.
I mean does the Balfour Declaration not reflect that a deal was made prior to Britain's occupation of Palestine?

* At what point do the Palestinians get an opportunity to determine their own future, free from the meddling of others?

4. Sorry my mistake for taking you out of context.

Finally, as a lawyer though, I am interested to find out your position on deals made under duress?
Do you not think the Palestinians have been forced to choose between deals under duress or oppression?

#Armchair Critic

Responding to your numbered paragraphs:
1. Read the following 41 page article on the interpretation of "do unto others" that blows your misguided view right out the window.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/goldrule/

2.Great to see you support the right of the Jews to have a Jewish State.

Your claim of Arab displacement is nonsense.

The Arabs living in Palestine were promised in 1920 that their civil and religious rights would be protected under the Mandate. Political rights were to be found in the 99.99% of the Ottoman Empire set aside for Arab self-determination by the League of Nations - not the 0.1% set aside for Jewish self-determination..

Arab anger led to the Arab riots in 1920/21 in which 47 Jews were murdered and hundreds injured - resulting in 76.9% of the territory of Palestine in 1922 being closed to Jewish settlement.

The Palestinian Arab leadership was not content with 76.9% of Palestine. They wanted 100% - rejecting offers of Partition in 1937 and in 1947 before attempting to take it all by force in 1948 when six Arab armies from neighbouring Arab States invaded western Palestine to throw the Jews into the sea.

Successive Arab leaderships have been no better.

3. The idea of the rule of law is that people accept its rulings - not toss it out the window when it doesn't suit them.

You ask:
"At what point do the Palestinians get an opportunity to determine their own future, free from the meddling of others?"

That opportunity arose in 1946 when 76.9% of Palestine became an independent Arab State. It arose again between 1948-1967 when Transjordan conquered the West Bank and East Jerusalem and drove out every single Jew who had been living there. The local Arab leadership chose to unify the West Bank and East Jerusalem with Transjordan - which was renamed Jordan.

4. Thank you.

The Jews accepted deals under duress in 1922, 1937 and 1947. The Arabs have never been able to similarly compromise. For the Arabs it has always been - 100% or nothing. Therein is and will regrettably always be the difference.

Somebody above mentioned the two-state solution. My faulty understanding is that:

* the Israelis have suggested a two-state solution on a number of occasions, the Palestinians never, because

* they have never renounced their intention to push the Israelis into the sea, i.e. tov exterminate them.

So that seems to be the state of play: the various Palestinian authorities do not recognise the right of Israel to exist, therefore, from their angle, there will never be a 'two-state solution' - while Israel has been prepared to recognise an entity called Palestine on a number of occasions.

If a state actually exists, but is not recognised by a neighbour and is periodically subjected to a rain of rockets which presumably are intended to do a great deal of damage (but rarely do), then in international law, it is actually entitled not only to engage in hot pursuit and eliminate the threat of ever more crockets, but also to actually seize that territory and incorporate it into its own territory. Hence, for example, the Golan Heights, from which the Syrians prepared to launch an attack on Israel back in 1967.

Yes, by all means, strive for a two-state solution, but a prerequisite for that is the mutual recognition of each other's rights as sovereign states. If Palestine refuses tov recognise Israel' right in that respect, then a two-state solution is off the table.

Joe

//Questioning these things doesnt make me an anti semite.
It simply makes me a person who questions things and tries to understand the world.//

You don't question anything, Armchair Cretin. You won't even question your beliefs when people point you towards a mountain of contradictory evidence. You dig up an anti-Semitic garbage on the internet and accept it uncritically. Then you regurgitate it all over the forum in the form of rhetorical questions - questions asked in order to make a point rather than an elicit an answer.

Asking a bunch of rhetorical questions which Blind Freddy can see are thinly-veiled anti-Semitic statements does not make you intellectually curious. It makes you an anti-Semite. If you really were interested in questioning things and trying to understand the world you would seek out different sources of information and different points of view, instead of uncritically accepting and parroting wild anti-Semitic conspiracy theories in the (transparent) guise of innocent questions.

//Tell me one thing I spoke of that you are saying I've lied about.//

The toxicity of HCN to human beings. You've lied about that. Repeatedly.

Your claim that Israel declared war on Germany before the state of Israel even existed. You've lied about that as well.

Two will do for now. If I had go back through your posts and catalogue every dishonest statement you've made, or false statements that you've stood by after they have been proven false I'd be here all afternoon and exhaust my post limit.

Mazel tov, Joe...

//What are you going to say that my computer is anti-semitic or that google is anti-semitic for displaying the results and information it did in my searches??//

You're going to try and blame Google for your anti-Semitism? Grow up, you pathetic child. Search engines are machines and they cannot think for themselves. You can. And I'd bet my last dollar that Google didn't come up with results containing only anti-Semitic propaganda and that somebody has been merrily picking cherries.

//Quite honestly the way you openly say I should drink acid//

I drink acids all the time. I can't have a glass of orange juice without drinking citric and ascorbic acids. Not all acids are dangerous. You've claimed HCN is a not a dangerous acid, so where would be the harm in drinking it?

//It makes me wonder if all Jewish and pro-Jewish people have a mindset like you Toni?
The question of whether you are a moral people is slowly being answered.//

I'm Irish-Australian Catholic. I don't know how most of the people with that cultural identity feel about Jewish people, but the ones I talk to seem to share my view that condemning Jewish people just for being Jewish is not cricket.

I would say that that does make us a moral people. But I wouldn't presume to speak for all my fellow Irish-Australian Catholics the way you presume to speak for all Jewish people.

//Your moral compass and mental health as a nation (If people like you and a few others are anything to go on) is starting to come into question though, from my perspective.//

Attacking Australia now? That's not going to go down well on this forum. If the cultural warriors battling it out on the ABC and refugee related topics catch wind that you're expressing anti-Australian sentiments they will be down on you like a ton of bricks and they're a lot more vicious than me when they've got their dander up.

//I don't hate Jewish people, so fat chance finding or creating a real reason to call me anti-semite.//

So what should I call somebody who constantly denigrates all Jewish people and victim-blames Jews for the Shoah because he disagrees with the policies of the contemporary Israeli government? A jolly reasonable fellow? Anti-Semite sounds more accurate to me.

//I just disagree with what some of them do, as with plenty of other politicians and people in power.//

Then you should take it up with the Israeli Government whose policies you disagree with, instead of randomly spewing hateful anti-Semitic crap against all Jewish people. A lot of them disagree with the Israeli Government as well.

//You people call me anti-semitic because I support what is morally right.//

I call you an anti-Semite because you constantly make anti-Semitic statements in the (transparent) guise of innocent questions, and then when called on it loudly proclaim that you are not anti-Semitic, as though your protestations could make all your anti-Semitic drivel disappear in a puff of smoke.

Do the Jewish kids at your school beat you up and steal your lunch money or something? (Not a rhetorical question. I'm really interested to know what it is you have against Jewish people in general, not just the Israeli Government).

The Elders of Zion international octopus will be defeated.

Who controls the US and rest of the West ?– see here:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/11/20/pcr-interviewed-russia-italy/

The Zionist TPP are all about their scorched earth policy takeover against the Amaleks (Gentiles) and rest of the world for Communist World Conquest. Causing another genocide in Palestine and trying for more to come.

http://levant.tv/blog-posts/evil-triumphs-the-wests-hand-behind-isis-confirmed/

http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/the-real-reason-for-obamas-executive-amnesty/

http://transitionofamerica.com/2015/01/11/obamas-call-to-change-the-constitution/

http://come-and-hear.com/download.html#flyers

http://come-and-hear.com/editor/about.html

http://come-and-hear.com/editor/america_1.html

http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/america_1.html

Death Penalty: http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/capunish_1.html