//It is extremely unlikely that any normal professional soldier or member of the police force as another example could ever commit the crimes of Bryant.//

It is a logical impossibility for anybody but Bryant to commit the crimes of Bryant. It is considerably more likely that police and soldiers could commit crimes of the same nature as Bryant's. They've done so before and I see no reason to assume they won't do so again.

Never heard of Woo Bum-kon (cop)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-kon

Or William Unek (cop)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Unek

Or Campo Elias Delgado (veteran)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campo_El%C3%ADas_Delgado

Or Robert Bales (soldier)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bales

Or Nidal Malik Hasan (soldier)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan

Or the most prolific mass murderer in the known universe, Vasily Blokhin (soldier)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Blokhin

Craig Minns and Toni Lavis,

I have many friends and acquaintances from the Australian armed forces and police forces. As I have found through helping in pre-Kindy and all of the way through schooling and volunteering through and membership of community groups, it is not unusual to find many serving and ex-forces personnel in voluntary and community interest work.

That is because like those splendid people in medical delivery and rescue to take another couple of examples, the people who are attracted to these vocations (and they do perceive their professions as vocations not just jobs) are people who are driven to serve the community. They are responsible people who want to be of service to others, to make a positive contribution to the community and to protect.

When I mentioned professional soldiers and police it is those people I was thinking of: the well-selected, well-trained, well-led Australian professional soldiers and police. I also referred to 'normal' to hopefully ensure no-one would run off with rare exceptions and unique conditions.

Contrary to what you may imagine, the recruitment, leadership and personnel management policies (eg behaviour and incident monitoring) that apply to the Australian services are more than adequate in ensuring that there are none of the irrelevant and extreme examples you both give from other countries and some quite mentally disturbed.

I stand by my previous assessments. I invite both of you to have another go. Here is the post,

onthebeach, Saturday, 20 June 2015 6:42:12 AM
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=17437&page=4

Below is a telling article for those who would defend the citizenship rights of terrorists. An article ABC Online has just posted June 21, 2015:

Headline - Australian doctor helping Islamic State in Syria, Tareq Kamleh, has 'no concern' if passport is cancelled

"A former Australian doctor now helping Islamic State (IS) in Syria has responded to moves to arrest him, saying he no longer considers himself a citizen and the prospect of his passport being cancelled does not concern him.

A warrant for Tareq Kamleh's arrest was obtained by the Australian Federal Police at a closed hearing of the Adelaide Magistrates Court on Thursday.

In a post on Facebook this morning Kamleh, 29, said he had "no concern" about any moves to cancel his passport or registration as a doctor.

"I no longer consider myself an Australian," he said.

"I anticipated an arrest warrant, hence why I left in secret."

see http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-21/australian-doctor-tareq-kamleh-responds-to-arrest-warrant/6561600

otb, don't be silly.

There have been many instances of police bashing suspects (most recently there have been two cases in the media, both involving young men and both involving police trying to cover it up); there have been instances of police shooting people with no genuine self-defence argument to be carried (the 15 year old boy in Perth a couple of years ago who was shot several times and killed despite being surrounded by no less than 5 of those highly-trained officers); the Victorian Police had to do some serious cultural reorganisation a few years ago after a number of high-profile shootings; the list goes on and on.

I wouldn't be a copper or a soldier for quids, they're hard, emotionally taxing, thankless career choices, but don't try and convince me that the services are full of saints, that's just silly.

Hi Plantagenet - this was one of your comments on this topic on another thread earlier this month. People can and should be able to change their position on topics but this seems to be a complete u-turn. What happened?

"Barnaby Joyce's concerns, as revealed in the Cabinet leak, are particularly relevant.

If it is just up to (say) Brandis on the advice of (say) AFP or ASIO, to strip dual citizenship there is the risk of lack of natural justice and no appeal.

What if the person "A" to be stripped of citizenship:

1. is only 12 years old?
2. has a common name opening up the possibility the wrong person is stripped?
3. the main source of "incriminating" information is someone who hates A? Or from a competing tribe? Or some CIA nutter.
4. if A is a Sunni (perhaps not fighting) in Syria - might stripping course death at the hands of the Shiite Syrian Government?

Can Cabinet or even the Australian public be assured that the stripping process is robust and not open to doubt or defect?

A precedent in point is the Haneef case in 2007 where Haneef was stripped of his visa and temporarily locked up by then Immigration Minister on "character grounds". The Federal Court rapidly found this action to be "astounding" and based on faulty judgement and little evidence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamed_Haneef#Appeal_to_Federal_Court_against_visa_cancellation

There are even less checks and balances overseas."

What caused you to change your position on this topic in the last few weeks?

The problem isn't with removing citizenship from ISIS members, but the fact that we are radically changing our laws and values in order to give a minister the power to strip someone of their citizenship on the mere suspicion of wrongdoing.

Decisions based on arbitrary power and secret evidence behind closed doors is an inherently bad way to make such important decisions. I would have thought that would be obvious to anyone.

Courts aren't perfect, but justice is far better served by going through the legal system where evidence can be tested and heard by a judge and jury.

Craig Minns,

Australian police handle many thousands of public contacts and interactions each and every year.

It is to be expected that there will be some complaints. I am not even bothered to look such is my and I daresay the Australian public's trust in the police (and earned by them). In any event, the police Minister is answerable to the Parliament.