This is wrong, wrong and even more wrong. The problem is not with us evil westerner's it's with Islamic culture.

This is just another in a long line of apologist articles blaming the west on the violence that Islam is defined by.

The writer ignores the fact that the vast majority of the fighters joining these groups are from Islamic countries. Yes there are some poor little second or third generation Muslims from the west joining,but it's a small percentage of the fighters. No the problem will only be fixed when Muslims stop blaming the West and start taking steps to move their religion into the 21st century.

Stop blaming the west this is an Islamic problem. follow the money this is a a proxy war between the Saudi's and the Iranian's.

A couple of points.
Despite the protestations of Western apostates and innovators,ISIL and Al Qaeda are legitimate Islamic movements and Sunni Islam is fundamentalist or literalist, the word Sunni means "people of the tradition of Mohammed".
There is no possibility of integrating Islam in to any other system of government or a non Islamic society, it just doesn't work that way.
The religion of the immigrants is an insignificant issue, the number of actively religious people in the Lebanese, Afghan and African groups in this country is tiny, the faithful and observant are the minority. Most of the problematic aspects of hosting these immigrant groups relate to ethnic customs, biological issues like their lower median intelligence and innately aggressive and histrionic behaviour.
Calls for assimilation are exacerbating the problem not the solution because there's no longer a society for anyone to integrate into, multiculturalism has disintegrated Australian society and for the most part the media, academic and political castes are working against the forms of civic nationalism which could work in favour of greater integration.
"Muslim" youth culture in Australia boils down to adoration of the Hollywood "Gangsta" stereotype of the U.S Negroes and the mixed messages of Arab nationalism and Islamic Jihad coming from the internet, ISIS is the toughest gang going around with the hardest gangsters on the street, it's natural that kids to whom those stereotypes are so ingrained would want to be a part of it.

The regressives immigration policies have caused these problems. Anyone that bangs on about all cultures and religions being equal are plainly ignorant. All people are made in the image of God but those serving violent idealogies should never have been welcomed here in order to appease the Christophobes.

Cobber,
There's a quote from a person who left Islam which crops up a lot on Facebook, "To reform Islam you'd have to get rid of 70% of the Koran and the 30% left is just utter nonsense anyway".

Name a country where Islamic immigration has worked without bloodshed
and large scale criminal activity by the immigrants.
Now we hear all the time that it is only a small minority.
The moslem communities are quite tightly held together.

Why should we have to bother trying to sort them out ?
It is impossible.
It is interesting that Norway is having a go anyway.
They are deporting large numbers of moslems.
Interestingly the crime rate has dropped 30% !

I agree with most of this.

What should happen to migrants, is they be directed where they can live work and play, rather than head for the nearest ethnically suitable Ghetto.

And if directed exclusively to underpopulated outback towns, both they and the locals will have to work out how to successfully cohabitate!

We have within our ranks the descendants of Muslim Afghan camel drivers, who have done both.

These folks, mostly following the older sofie tradition? Have well and truly integrated!

They look dress and talk like any other Aussie. They could be the bloke or sheila you have a beer or wine or tea or coffee with after work, or follow a favorite football/netball team with; or share a Sunday arvo B-B-Q with, or the kids your kids go to school with.

Religion being saved for the Mosque and appropriate timing, that fits in with local customs and social mores?

And to a virtual person, are even more outraged than most, by what is being done in the name of their religion; and by self appointed spokespersons with no valid claim whatsoever to speak for anyone, let alone God!?
Rhrosty

So the author believes that the way to prevent Muslim radicalization is to infect young Muslims with nationalism, to treat fire with fire...

Professor Alon Ben-Meir, instead of beating around the mulberry bush, please deal directly with the fundamental question: can a Muslim be integrated into a secular society in which I am allowed to declare that Islam is bunkum?

Many non-Muslims also "feel increasingly marginalized economically, socially and politically..."

This excuse panders to the more radical Muslims, media apologists and politicians. "Victimhood" is a standard screen to hide the real reasons for appalling attitudes held by some Muslims. The illegal and obnoxious behaviour of radicals in Australia has long been proven to have nothing to do with poverty, unemployment or with any social or political evils. Note the most recent of them - the mad doctor. And, if the shock and protestations of parents and families of some of these people is genuine, it has nothing do with their training or upbringing either.

And, of course Islamic terrorism will lead to "European" (and any non-Muslim community) 'Islamaphobia. Are their vicious behaviour and threats supposed to engender love for them?
Incidentally, "Islamaphobia" is a construct of the Left, meant to show us that the fear or dislike is irrational or unwarranted like any other phobia. It is a completely inappropriate 'non word'.
So, good luck with integrating peope who don't wish to integrate. And, continue to ignore the fact that immigration is one of the main ways of spreading Islam.

As for what WE should be doing. How about all these 'moderate' Muslims we here about, but don't hear from? Islam is the problem. THEY are the ones who should be doing something about it. There is no point in some self-appointed leader saying that violence and hatred of others is 'not the way of Islam", when Islamic literature tells us that damn well is. There must be Muslims out there who are not liars, and who regret that their religion and way of life is still in the dark ages; and these people are the ones who should be demanding change if they wish to live peacfully in the West.

In the meantime, we must never forget that this is all the fault of politicians for Islam spreading to Australia. Without their stupid pig-headedness and refusal to listen, we would not be discussing this problem now.

TTBN,
Lebanese, Afghan and African Muslims were brought here for purely political reasons, the refuge resettlement program is wholly political, it has no economic justification.
Talking about "moderate Muslims" is pointless, what we need is a de-Islamisation program to bring people out of the lifestyle altogether because without a new version of Islam there can be no moderate Muslims.
If people really feel they need a spiritual component to their lives they can take up Christianity, Buddhism or one of the other faiths.

All this is not new. Countries ouside the Middle East have been suffering
the predations of Islam for 1400 years. They have been commanded by
Allah to impose Islam on the world by the sword.
Call it Islamaphobia if you like as it is accurate. If you do not
suffer from Islamaphobia you do not know what is going on around you.

As for the useful idiots that try to tell us that we are over reacting
and that it is a tiny minority, they will be the first to get the chop.

It would be useful for someone to lay a complaint with the discrimination
board or whoever that the Koran is illegal as it is a racial and
violence advocating publication.
The immans I see have already asked for the Koran to be exempted
from the new anti terrorism laws the government is preparing.

What is the bet the weak politicians will agree.

Jay

I have always been sceptical of moderation in Muslims. There is nothing moderate about Islam itself , and there is only one version. So, as there are undoubtedly good/nice and peaceful Muslims, I assume that they are not as devout as the fire and brimstone ones; or, perhaps they do not take Islam seriously - just as many who are nominally Christians, but who hardly ever think about religion. It was just the luck of the draw that they were born into it.

What do you think? It would make understanding and dealing with ordinary Muslims much easier. But I still think they have to make the move.

Jay,

"If people really feel they need a spiritual component to their lives they can take up Christianity, Buddhism or one of the other faiths."

Sort of like Lebanese Christians??

ttbn,
Well exactly, most "Muslims" in quotaion marks aren't particularly religious, given that surveys of Christians and Jews in the U.S reveal that as many as 50% of regular church/temple attendees don't even believe in God you could assume the same for Muslims.
Australians have almost given up religion and even twenty years ago any leftist openly defending religion in the way they do now would have been laughed at. Even the Australians who still practice a religion hold values which are completely incompatible with Islam, are Imams going to solemnise same sex marriages when it becomes legal and allow female clergy as the progressive Christian and Jewish congregations will?

JoM -"Australians have almost given up religion and even twenty years ago any leftist openly defending religion in the way they do now would have been laughed at."

Aren't the current crop of very right leaning pollies, in Government now, especially our very religious PM and Treasurer, defending religion often?

"Even the Australians who still practice a religion hold values which are completely incompatible with Islam, are Imams going to solemnise same sex marriages when it becomes legal and allow female clergy as the progressive Christian and Jewish congregations will?"

They don't need to do this if they don't want to, as making Gay marriage legal will involve the state, and religious organizations will make up their own minds if they want to marry gay people in their church.
I think we can safely assume that the Catholic Church will never allow gay marriage or female priests in their Christian church, just to name one.

Muslims immigrating into western countries should not assimilate, westerners must integrate with Muslims. What a load of BS.

The minority tail does not wag the majority dog. If Muslims wish to immigrate into a western country, the onus is upon them to moderate their stupid and dangerous religion to co exist with others in the modern world.

This they will never do because it is against their religion. The Muslim religions insists upon social separation between Muslims and infidels. And the Muslim religion can never co exist as a minority religion, it must seek to dominate al others, even if it is just within a small regional area. And when it does that, you had better not be a minority infidel in "their" Muslim area.

It is the religion, stupid.

The problem is, that Muslims are so dangerous and backward that they should never have been allowed to immigrate into advanced countries where they will cause nothing but trouble.

“Norwegian women must take responsibility for the fact that Muslim men find their manner of dress provocative. And since these men believe women are responsible for rape, the women must adapt to the multicultural society around them.”

– Dr. Unni Wikan, Professor of Social Anthropology at the University of Oslo

LEGO, it isn't just some Muslim men who believe women ask to be raped, that is a fairly universal concept for some men of all religious persuasions unfortunately.

I believe that the fact that we already have Muslim people living in our society means that we have to try and integrate the ones who feel marginalized, or face the consequences.
We have no other choice other than having to deal with radical behaviours from the minority....

Suse,
Not true, the rights of women have been protected by law in Christian Europe since about the 13th century and the crime of rape typically carried the death penalty, in fact it was only in the 1970's that rape was removed from the list of capital crimes in the U.S.A.
Under Islamic law the rapist and the raped are and always have been held to be equally culpable and the victim can only be excused from culpability if she can provide four witnesses to the assault.
Islamic law and the English common law from which our system is derived are chalk and cheese, there's no point even comparing them they are so different.
Your "all religions" comments are based on lies, a person who knowing repeats a lie is known as a liar, if you don't want to be called a liar don't lie.

Is mise,
You understand that the present day Christian populations in the middle east are the remnants of a way of life which pre dates Islam and which was all but wiped out by the followers of Mohammed? All of the middle east, Asia Minor, the Caucasus and North Africa was Christian until the great Jihad swept out of Arabia in the 7th century and burnt it all to the ground.
All of the self styled progressives who apologise for Islam should be ashamed of themselves,the history of the Anglo Saxon liberal, progressive reformer was built on opposition to Islam, from India to Sudan, to Afghanistan, Kenya, the Levant/Palestine, Egypt and so on.
Progressives are the people who used military force and were prepared to put their lives on the line to end the trans Saharan slave trade, eradicate piracy and slaving on the Mediterranean Sea, who sttod up to the Mughals, the Ottomans and the fanatical Jihadi cults of old.
Of course we all know that today's Anglo Saxon progressives don't even really support Islam, the only reason they ally themselves with Muslims is because for the moment it's possible to make their class enemies, the White working class look silly by drawing these fake battle lines of the issues of immigration and "racism". These battle lines are drawn to keep the workers, the plebs and the bogans in their place, to thwart any sort of political self determination and protection of our own interests.

Jay said;
they ally themselves with Muslims is because for the moment it's
possible to make their class enemies, the White working class look silly

These are the very useful idiots that the moslems will decapitate if or
when they take over. The useful idiots will be so disillusioned that
they will be dangerous to Islam.

This is the tactic that the communists used. Was it Lenin that coined the phrase ?

abit from column A and a bit from column B and column C

First unlike the Bible the KORAN is a how to live your life manual
BUT it was designed to keep uneducated goat herders that didn't know what was over the next hill in-line, It was just never updated to modern life.Now Picture this when talking about Muslims.

The Bible
reworked that many times it has no meaning to most People anymore its just a great collection of Stories

Modern Western Society
Can anyone say this Good ? If your rich i guess so
Drugs/crime/depression all on the rise
because there is no future most people see all they know is a dead end job then death
The only true solution i can see to all these problems is SPACE
"the final frontier"
People of all nations young men and women need adventure to explore find new things go places no one has gone before
This is why ISIS and the rest are appealing to so many its an adventure, way better then hanging out at the local park with friends every weekend doing nothing with no money.
So as I see it we can 1. become goat herders 2. Western Scum
3. All pull together for the next chapter in human evolution
I choose option 3.
AB

Suse,
You said. "I believe that the fact that we already have Muslim people living in our society means that we have to try and integrate the ones who feel marginalized, or face the consequences.
We have no other choice other than having to deal with radical behaviours from the minority...."

When muslims come to a democratic country it is up to them to integrate and fit into that society, we have no obligation to change our ways to suit other cultures. Frankly I think they see themselves as pioneers for Islam and put up with our alien ways. Their long term goal is to change our society little by little until they get the numbers to vote in the changes they desire.

If we want to stop the radical or alien behavior of muslims then we have to stop importing them as each new arrival refreshes the culture.

This is the course of action we should take as I do not see anything in any Islamic country that appeals to me. I want those that follow me to enjoy the advantages of our democracy, such as it is.

To Susieonline.

Jesus, you come out with some doozies.

Which Christian country or religion jails women who are raped? Which Christian country or religion demands that rapists can only be convicted if four witnesses of good character watched the rape from start to finish, and will testify that the rape was not consensual? Which Christian country or religion claims that all men have "uncontrollable lusts"? Which Christian country or religion holds women completely responsible for inflaming or controlling the "uncontrollable lusts" of men?

As a woman, I thought that you would have the sense to understand that Islam is a male dominated misogynistic religion which uses rape, or the threat of rape, to keep woman under control? Tony Abbot only has to look at his watch while Julia Gilliard is speaking, and every feminist in Australia is screaming that he is a misogynist. But Islam gets a free pass every time even though Muslim men treat their goats better than their women. The Koran instructs husbands on how long and how thick the "rod" should be to beat their wives, and Susionline uses the three monkey approach to judge Islam. There are none so blind, Susie.

Muslim youth are "marginalised" because that is what their religion demands of them. The Koran demands that Muslims must not take non believers as their friends. Islam insists that Muslims keep social separation from infidels and that was why Islam became so backwards. Muslim nations did not even have embassies in non Muslim countries before the late 19th century because Muslim scholars had decreed that Muslims could not live in infidel nations. They were so insular and self centred that the first Islamic book telling of the existence of North and South America was only published in the late 19th century.

They are only flooding into the west now to colonise us for Islam. What they could not get through war they can get through immigration, birth rate differentials, terrorism, and "useful fools" like your good self.

Lego,
It's interesting that as our society has "progressed" the punishments for rape have grown lighter and less severe, in England capital punishment for rape was not practiced after 1841 and abolished in 1861 with the passage of the Crimes Against The Person act. Nowadays the average sentence for rape in the U.K is eight years and in Australia four years. This is one more example of progressive cognitive dissonance, how can they support Islamic colonisation of their "progressive" society when the fundamentals of both are completely at odds?

Bazz,
No I don't know that it was Lenin, as far as I know the term "useful idiots" is a cold war era term and back in the day Stalin had more actual agents in the West than useful idiots, people like Alger Hiss and Kim Philby for example. Trotsky came up with the term "Racism", I know that much, he used it as a justification for the Russian civil war.

JoM, we don't have Islamic Law here in Australia, only Australian Law.

Don't call me a liar.
It is well known that some men of all cultures and religions believe women 'ask' to be raped by daring to dress 'provocatively' or daring to walk alone where and when they like in our community. Some on this forum believe this, and you know it.

I never said we should integrate into Muslim society at all, but rather they should integrate into ours if they are to live in Australia.
They are here now, and many have had their families living in Australia for generations.

It is time all you guys got over the fact they are Australian and they have to abide by the laws and punishments of this country, just like you or I.
Get over it and move on.

Suzie OL,
I have not heard anyone on here say the woman is to blame for rape !
The problem is many are told, and believe, that our laws are wrong and
only obey them if there is a risk of being caught.
The need for the Middle Eastern Crime Squad shows that.
How many police stations have been shot up other than Lakemba ?

A relative is a prison officer, correction, Corrective Services Officer
and what he tells me is that they are never sorry for what they have
done until the parole hearings are due.

Frankly, I think you need a reality check.

Suse,

"They don't need to do this if they don't want to, as making Gay marriage legal will involve the state, and religious organizations will make up their own minds if they want to marry gay people in their church."

That s until the homosexual industry goes after the churches (religions) to force them to marry homosexual couples; they will do this by crying discrimination and a consequent denial of justice.

OK Susionline, let's examine your logic.

Your premise is, that since every society and culture has men who think that women should be raped, then that makes every society and culture equal. You did not say that outright, but that is your clear implication.

Wrong, Wrong. Wrong.

Western societies may criticise women who walk around at night unescorted and drunk, wearing scanty clothes, and making themselves vulnerable to rape by sexual predators. But if she does get raped she is still a victim and the attacker is a criminal.

That does not equate to the Muslim position that women have no right at all to walk around by themselves at night unescorted and drunk, and wearing scanty clothes. And if she does get raped then she is the criminal, and the man is not a victim, he is just doing what comes naturally. Not only that, but since men have a duty to punish women who behave immorally, he is right to rape her and it is her fault. As Sheik al Hilaly said, "if you leave meat out and a cat eats it, who's fault is it?".

Now, if you turn off your TV and think real hard, you may begin to figure out that there is a very wide difference between the Western view of rape, and the Muslim view. And that is why there have been rape epidemics involving Muslim men in every western country where large numbers of Muslims have been imported. My advice to you, Susie, is do not get into a taxi cab in Sydney late at night drunk, wearing a micro mini, if the taxi driver is a Muslim.

Most people shun other people who think it is OK to rape women who behave in a certain way. People shun those who have values which are diametrically opposed to their own. Which is why Muslim men get "marginalised." And they are "marginalised" because their own evil religion demands social separation from infidels anyway

LEGO, if you turn off your telly and have a real think, you may consider the fact that not all Muslims think alike.
Like all religions and cultures, Muslim people have differing views on the interpretation of their holy book.
We do have mad idiots in our society who take the bible literally too.

Not all Muslim people think like the fundamentalists you describe.
I don't think that people like you will ever believe the truth though, because that would get in the way of the blind hatred of a whole group of people for the actions of a few.

Integration of Muslims will not work to de-radicalize as the Koran tells the faithful that it is OK to lie in the cause of Allah, therefore feigning integration will be a holy thing.

So how do you tell if a Muslim is not faking it?

Like all Christians, not all Muslims take their holy book literally.
If they did, the Christians would all be constantly gathering their supply of stones to have handy for stoning the next adulterer they would come across....

I'm sorry Suse this comment shows your complete ignorance about Islam - "Muslim people have differing views on the interpretation of their holy book". Muslim is the name given to the people who belong to the Islamic faith.

True Muslims are not allowed to interpret the Holy Book. The Koran is the word of God from the final prophet, it is the ultimate truth and therefore not open to interpretation. There is no fudging the word of Mohammed. To interpret/question the Koran is sacrilege and punishable.

Muslims who do not visit the Temple, or do their daily prayers, or do not bother about certain religious festivals are less Muslim than the fanatics we all agree are a problem. But the fanatics are the ones who are following the teachings of Mohammed. The fanatics are practicing Islam as it should be. We Westerners may wish differently and keep saying Islam is a religion of peace but it hasn't been historically and there is no indication it will be in the future.

I have no doubt there are some, possibly even many Muslim people like those you describe but they are not in the majority within the Muslim community and I seriously doubt they openly admit they have an alternative view of how Islam should be practiced.

If you have proof some Muslims interpret their Holy Book differently can you please share an example of a passage in the Koran they are interpreting.

What is more, a Muslim that is faking assumption of Western values to further the cause of Allah may indulge in the drinking of alcoholic beverages if by so doing he/she is not doing so for pleasure alone, although pleasure may be felt.

When was the last time European Christians stoned anyone?
You have to go way back to the beginning of Christianity and the Hellenic world to find ISIS level atrocity stories, they are there in abundance but are we really worried about what Ioannes Asiacus or Theodosious II did in 380 or whatever?
The point is that Christians in 2015 are harmless and no threat to Islam, the reverse is simply not true.

To Susionline.

There are approximately 1.2 billion Muslims on this planet, and just in case you have not noticed, almost all of them take their religion very seriously. Where are all these "moderate" Muslims who believe in secular government, civil law, gender equality, homosexuality, tolerance of other religions, and the idea that it is OK to criticise Islam? If the majority of Muslims are "moderate", please tell us which Islamic countries believe in these concepts? If you can't, then your opinion is more worthy of hilarity than serious consideration.

How is it possible for a presumably intelligent woman to say something which is so laughably contrary to self evident reality?

If the overwhelming majority of Muslims admired the ideals of western liberals, then almost every Muslim country would be a liberal democracy. You are "projecting" your liberal attitudes onto people who firmly reject them, and then fantasising that they think just like you do.

You are equating two religions which do not equate. That most Christians do not take their religion too seriously, makes you think that Muslims must do the same thing. Your humanitarian ideology tells you that almost everyone on planet Earth is noice, and (to paraphrase President Kennedy) that "we all breath the same air, we all want what is best for our children." Well Susie, that famous picture of Muslim parents dressing their toddlers up as suicide bombers should have given you pause to think that perhaps Muslims do not think like you do.

Unlike most Christians, Susie, all Muslims believe that the Koran is the literal word of God. And that He is giving them his instructions on how they must live. He has told them that Sharia Law supersedes civil law, that women are inferior, homosexuals must be executed, other religions must not be tolerated, neighbouring infidels should be attacked and forced to become Muslims, and those who criticise Islam must be killed.

How you can reconcile the idea that such a "religion" can co exist peacefully within a society with diametrically opposed values and attitudes, is one of life's enduring mysteries.

LEGO the argument based on the current state of Islamic countries ignore the turmoil that most of those countries have been in for decades generally driven by outside forces.

There are a bunch of pictures of Afghanistan, mostly in Kabul in 1967-68 at http://www.pbase.com/qleap/best_afghan. Prior to the Russian invasion and all that's followed.

A bunch of picture of Iran at http://all-that-is-interesting.com/shah-iran#29 - CIA involvement in changes of government have played a horrible role in the current state of that country.

Egypt in the past http://egyptianstreets.com/2014/04/05/egypts-golden-years-in-23-vintage-photos/

A view of modern day Lebanon that does not make it into the normal news feeds http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/09/world/meast/beirut-middle-east-party-capital/

A photograph from Beirut in 1958 http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/photography/photo-of-the-day/street-beirut-abercrombie/

A lot of muslim countries are hell holes at the moment but I don't think there is a strong case for believing that's just because of the religion. It's a wide mixture of causes one of which is some really short sighted intervention from outside.

R0bert

R0bert, yes and the countries so "interfered with" since the 1920's have not been able to organise under a Caliph or some fanatic claiming to be the Mahdi and threaten Europe have they?
Do you ever think that maybe the secret services, the CIA, MI5, BND, FSB etc might actually know a bit more about the motivations and potential of the Islamic world than a lay person?
You'll note that Germany and Japan are still occupied countries as a result of losing a war, the former Ottoman lands are similarly held in submission so they can't threaten European and American interests again.
Unless you see your own interests as akin to those of the Ummah or the Islamic State or whatever's to come after Al Malhama it's time to stop crying over these interventions because the alternative is a Sultan's army at the gates of Vienna again.

"Do you ever think that maybe the secret services, the CIA, MI5, BND, FSB etc might actually know a bit more about the motivations and potential of the Islamic world than a lay person?"

Jay, I don't think that they have demonstrated that over time. More likely that those who get into power in those organisations have all to often been the socio-paths and psychopaths that do to well at clawing their way to power.

That those within the organisations who might have understood the motivations of the bulk of the Islamic world were not the ones being listened to when big policy decisions were made, rather those decisions were made based on the mindset of the types who get to the top of such organisations.

There has been a terrible toll to pay for those interventions and in my view much of the power Islamist groups now have stems fairly directly from those interventions. It's created the turmoil and resentment that is the bread and butter of recruiting for extremist causes.

R0bert

Religion is not responsible for Muslim dysfunction, RObert? Like, you are kidding?

Could I remind you that the advanced societies "interfered" with the politics of Asia, and today, the Asians are doing very well. Those Asian societies that more or less accepted secular governments, free market economies, liberal values, and democratic principles rocketed ahead of the Muslim world. Even those Asian societies which were once right wing military dictatorships eventually evolved into stable and prosperous democracies.

The fact that it is religion which is holding back Muslim advancement can be easilly understood, even by you, when you appreciate that the more Islamic a Muslim state is, the more economically and socially backward it is.

It is no surprise that those Muslim countries that are the most insular, despotic, and mullah ridden, are the most staunch supporters of Osama bin Laden and his merry band of suicidal Jihadi's.

The extreme poverty that exists in Islamic countries, is a product of their own religious beliefs and almost every Muslim country is an economic basket case. Muslim economies are growing, on average, only 1% a year. But Muslim populations are growing, on average, at a disastrous 4% a year. Muslim societies are great believers in breeding like flies and Muslim families are noted for having very large numbers of children. This factor alone is instrumental in their appalling levels of poverty, superstition, unemployment and ignorance.

Their own attitudes to family size and birth control has condemned almost an entire generation of young Muslims to be bereft of employment or a future in their own countries. These angry young men are simply becoming recruits for terrorist organisations who seek to blame everyone else but Islam for their own woes. And your ignorance and your predilection for blaming your own people for Islam's dysfunction reinforces their stupid attitudes.

Muslims covet the prosperity of the West and dream about our consumer goods and lifestyles. But they will not accept the liberal values and secular philosophies that have created that prosperity. They think that the reason why they are poor is because they are not religious enough.

Roberts link to the Egypt before Nasser shows not the influence of
Islam but the influence of the British.
His argument suggests that Egypt might well have been better off if
the Egypt was still a British protectorate.
Roberts photographs suggest the opposite of what he expected.

It was all downhill from when the Islamists took over.

Certainly Egypt is now almost a failed state. So much so it has to get
rid of half its population. The Gulf states are feeding the Egyptians
but no one asks what will happen as that charity, as it must, winds down.
Is this all the fault of the British ?
For a long time I bought the story that it was all the fault of
"Western" intervention, but actually I now suspect it was the opposite.
The Islamists cannot manage a modern economy and they like the
moslems of old can only improve their lot by raiding others.

What happened to the moslem scholars of old ?
That had an outburst of science for a few hundred years but it was
only temporary.
Did the Mongols wipe it out ? Fortunately a lot of their advancement
survived from the Islamic occupation of Spain.
Was Islam not taken so seriously by moslems at that time ?
Was cousin marriage as prevalent in those times as it is now within moslem families ?
Is that the cause ?

Bazz my post was in response the the assertion that the mess that muslim countries are in now is the result of their religion.

My point is we are not looking at a level playing field, progress towards open secular states which appears to have been working across much of the muslim world in the 50's and 60's has been trashed in part by external influences which in my view has contributed significantly to extremism.

I've got some faith in open secular society, I think for most it's a more appealing way to live than under extremist religious dogma (or any other kind of extremist dogma). I'm picking up on a point that Suseonline made earlier, I don't think under normal circumstances there is much reason to believe muslims will hold dearly to the nastier teachings of their faith than christians do. People have ways of justifying to themselves holding to a mainstream faith and ignoring many of it's teachings. History has shown an ability for muslims to do that.

It's in part heavy handed interference that's polarised things and given more power to the extremists (on both sides).

If we don't learn from that we will keep making the same mistakes.

R0bert

R0bert,

"I don't think under normal circumstances there is much reason to believe muslims will hold dearly to the nastier teachings of their faith ...."

Then can I take it that Lakemba and most of Bankstown are under the 'normal circumstances' umbrella?
Itis interesting to stroll through the shopping malls in the area and to listen in on Arabic and Urdu conversations, some of the remarks on Westerners are most revealing.
I have but a smattering of Arabic but I speak Urdu (badly) but understand it well and my wife is fluent in a number of languages including Arabic and Urdu.

For a glimpse into Islam in Australia see: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/signals-of-jihad-in-australia-have-been-building-for-years-20140924-10lhon.html
pity about that Maronite Catholic spoiling the overall picture.

Robert, I think the mantra that all the trouble in and from the middle
east is due to western interference is inverted.
After the 1920s and then after 1945 most western countries had only
commercial interests, except in regard to Israel, in the area.
It was not until they started to play up and when the Islamists
started wars with Israel and started attacking western embassies, and
such like that western intervention really got going, in Iraq then
later Afghanistan etc.

It looks more and more like, perhaps for ideological, and perhaps
genetical reasons they just cannot cope with the rest of us and that
they really are different and incompatible with the rest of us.

Bazz, you might start with this article http://au.ask.com/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat?lang=en&o=2801&ad=doubleDownan=apnap=ask.com

I don't think there is a credible case to deny the CIA role in the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Iran, they have reportedly admitted to it. The Russian invasion of Afghanistan is well and truly on record as is the early US support for Saddam in Iraq. Follow that up with the lies told to justify the most recent invasion which created much of the turmoil that opened the way for Isis. I was one of those glad to see Saddam gone but I'd not realised how poorly conceived and that action was.

Is Mise, my impression is that Lakemba has a lot more to do with the attitudes of the leadership of the Lakemba mosque combined with a bunch of poor policy decisions by government (turning a blind eye to Lebanese gangs and sorts of incidents mentioned in the article you referenced) than to the same basic religion that's not created the same conditions in much of Australia.

We are at a difficult place, I don't think it's entirely western intervention that has created the current turmoil but I also think it's unreasonable to discount it entirely and blame it all on a religion when it's clear that under that same religion countries have not always been like that. No single cause but there are choices being made by the west that both aggravate the situation and make us a shared enemy. My impression is that muslims do well enough at fighting amongst themselves that we would do better to not be the point man for shared hatred.

R0bert

'If western powers had not interfered in other countries", says R0bert, everything might have been humpty dory. That is an interesting general speculation, but let's examine specifics.

Britain invaded Iraq in 1941 to because Iraq invited the Luftwaffe into Iraq so that Germany could bomb the Suez Canal. If the Germans had closed the canal, we might have lost the war. Since I presume you would have preferred that Nazi Germany did not win the war, then I gather you approve of the "interference?" Iran was invaded by Britain and Soviet troops at the same time, because the Shah of Iran admired Hitler, he intended to side with Nazi Germany, and give Hitler all the oil he needed. If Hitler had had more oil, he would probably have won the war. Once again, I presume that you approve of allied "interference?"

Western nations usually "interfered" with unstable, tin pot banana republics to prevent them falling to Nazis, Communists, and Islamic nut cases. As a general rule, I think that there actions were commendable and in the interests of the people of those countries, regardless of whether the people of those nations realised that, or not. The advanced societies may have gotten it wrong sometimes, but at least they tried.

Those pictures you posted up came from a time when western culture was openly admired within most banana republics. The Shah of Iran during the 1960's ruthlessly suppressed Islam to try and make Iran into a European type country. Naturally, he was opposed by the mullah's and they were helped by the communists. everywhere the Shah went in Europe and Australia he was hounded by leftists who proffered Islamic nut cases to the creation of a socially progressive Iranian government.

All of the Iranians who put the mullahs into power in Iran then wanted to immigrate to the west as "asylum seekers" from the religious government they wanted and fought for.

Robert, your comment starting;
I don't think there is a credible case to deny the CIA role in the
overthrow of a democratically elected government in Iran,

is basically correct, as I am sure there was intelligence services
probably of several brands intervention in Iran.
I would point out that Iran is not an Arab country and is a long term
enemy and occupier of Arab countries.

If Islam is so marvelous why is there such a problem with their
immigration into western countries ?

Robert, your comment about the reason for the shoot up of Lakemba
police station is quite wrong.
I was told the reason was revenge for the police destroying their
stolen car racket. They were stealing expensive cars and shipping
them to Lebanon for on selling to Cyprus, Africa and elsewhere.
They were caught out by a very simple trick which I will not
mention here.

Teen arrested in raid takes aim at ‘coconut’ Muslims in fiery Facebook rants
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/teen-arrested-in-raid-takes-aim-at-coconut-muslims-in-fiery-facebook-rants/story-fni0fit3-1227347807063
“If you wear a hijab, but don’t pray 5 times a day, you’re not a Muslim.

“If you go to Jum’ah every Friday, but don’t pray 5 times a day, you’re not a Muslim.

“If you’re born in a Muslim family, but you and your family don’t pray, you and your family are not Muslim

“If you have a Muslim name but don’t pray, you are not a Muslim.

“If you are Shi’a, you are not a Muslim.

“If you call the police on a Muslim because he is radical, you are not a Muslim.

“If you think the Sharaah law is extreme, you are not a Muslim.

“If you think there is nothing wrong with democracy, you are not a Muslim. If you joke about the religion, you are not a Muslim.”

Well!,

It seems to be the right time to tell those who foisted multiculturalism on us. Who claimed to be smarter than
those who saw danger in it, and called those people bigots
and uneducated fools,
Not as knowledgeable or clever as they,
quite wrongly, perceived themselves to be.

Maybe they should take another look at the wars
across history and really see what the lessons are.
Not blinded by how they wish it was.

We told you so

Bazz, sorry I'd missed your post from Friday.

Not sure where you were heading with the point about Iran not being an Arab country, the comments have been around the idea that the current state of Muslim countries is not necessarily an indicator of the religion (horrid though I consider it).

I'm not privy to NSW police operational details but I had a very strong impression from what I was seeing the media and being posted on OLO that there was a softly softly approach to dealing with street crime by the Lebanese gangs in the lead up to the protest/riot at Cronulla and subsequent trouble. Those kind of reports can be badly distorted or even fabrications but I was seeing a lot at the time about incidents and not much of the police dealing with it. Busting a car theft gang is most likely a different part of the police force and if it's luxury cars involved impacting on a different part of the community (the part thats more likely to have access to ministers etc).

R0bert

Robert, my comment about Iran not being Arab was just to point out that
being Persians they have a quite different history and a different
relationship with Arabs than Arabs have with each other.
Must immediately point out that I am not any sort of expert on the ME.
From what I can make out the Persians were frequent invaders of the
area and look down their noses at the Arabs. Bit stuck up I think.

Re Lakemba, the NSW Police established the Middle East Crime Squad
well before the Lakemba shootup if I remember correctly.
You are right it was softly softly and the media also was very reluctant
to call a spade a bloody shovel.
I listened to the police radio frequency the day of the Cronulla riot
and it was a real insight to what was going on.
The police were monitoring them all day.
They tried to run one policeman down that night where the cars were
being diverted away.
That caused a real escalation of activity, and then someone got
bashed up when a man came out of his house when he heard his car
being smashed up.
After a lot of activity the trouble spread to Maroubra.
Then the Lebs came up on the police frequency and at first tried to
be smart and give orders diverting police cars to Maroubra, but they
were too stupid and had someone on thir radio with a strong accent and no procedure.

Then an order, which I did not understand, was given and it all went quiet.
I could not find them anywhere. It was an eyeopener for me.

Lucky the Arabs never had the numbers to take control of
the city at Cronulla. But give them enough time and numbers.

They punched a life guard who chatted them for abnoxious and lurid behaviour to women on the beach.

This of course riled the Australians, you just don't punch an
Australian life gaurd, they have enormous community respect.

But the next 2years in the media was spent blaming the Australians
for racist behaviour. An idea put about by the muslims and other ethnic groups in Australia who had no understanding of the
cultural significance of Life Safers in Australian culture.

Maybe they should try to understand our culture a bit instead of
always complaining that we don't understand theirs.

WE understand their mindset and religious fundamentalism only
too well.

This doesnt make the desired 'integration' sound any more achievable. This guy suggests 'we must make a concerted effort to engage and understand the nuances of muslim communities' as well as 'we need to understand 'violent extremism'. Oh hell no! Violent extremism has no place in civilized society. If the desire to 'integrate' into a different culture is so strong, then civilized values and laws are what must be recognized, understood and accepted. If not go home as I could not and would not understand and accept 'violent extremism'.

CHERFUL, the Cronulla riots were down to a bunch of young men on both sides trying to establish dominance. The religious aspect was minor, but the tribal aspect was significant.

The point the author is making is that we (all of us) need to be working to become part of the same tribe, so that tribalism in all it's atavism doesn't become the thing that drives people to do things that are counter to their own best interests. Differences within a tribe can be accommodated, if we are determined to allow for them. On the other hand, if we try to insist they should not exist, then it is inevitable that the tribe will soon be no more.

A good place to start would be with the silly old buggers who infest this place who seem determined that their kids and grandkids should inherit a world at least as screwed up as the one in their own heads.

There are some apparently intelligent people here who allow altogether too much time to idiotic rabble rousers trying to build skyscrapers out of toy bricks.

Craig; Oh that it was so simple.
Unfortunately when you are dealing with a tribe of genetically
challenged young men who are the descendants of very long line of
cousin marriages, you are looking at a people who have badly damaged
genetics.

You cannot use the same techniques on us and them and get the same results.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/34368

If you have any doubt search NSW Gov Hansard Health Dept and the
UK Midlands Health Service Parliamentary report in UK Hansard.

It is a very serious problem that is hitting the Australian taxpayer very hard.

Wow, what an impressive "reference". No wonder you're so concerned about in-breeding when it can produce something like that!

Are you being facetious ?
I can assure you it is no matter for sarcasm, it is a very serious
problem especially for the children.
Ask someone who works in the field, they will tell you what a living
tragedy it is. It goes on for a lifetime of care.

Unfortunately for moslems it will take many generations of non cousin
marriages to repair their genetics.

Perhaps genetic engineering could speed that up.