@suzonline "Aren't you doing the exact same thing in reverse vr041?

Far from it. I am arguing from a position that one victim is too many, regardless of gender - end of story. In contrast, your position is to advance the plight of battered women by throwing those of us who are, or have been battered men under a bus.

"And I have not mentioned child abuse or rape at all, so that is your own comment."

Domestic violence, by its very nature, also includes rape and child abuse.

"As for your statistics, we have been over all that on these pages ad nauseum"

Which you choose to remain willfully blind to becauise it is heresy to your feminist dogma.

"The question to ask is, why are you so upset that more women are killed by their intimate partners than the other way around? "

No what I'm appalled and offended by is that you would use domestic homicides to try and trivialise domestic violence on the basis of gender.

" The men killed by domestic violence weren't all murdered by their female partner either, were they? But that is not mentioned at all, why is that?"

In other words, the same old tired narrative of "part of it is 'men doing it to each other' so that makes it ok to trivialise it".

" Far more men are killed by other men out on the streets, so why aren't you out there campaigning about that fact?"

Which you prove here by trying to use my experience of being the victim of such violence a few years ago, to justify stigmatising me as a DV and child abuse survivor.

" All murders are awful."

Translation - when domestic violence doesn't involve homicide, it's arbitrarily trivialised.

" But denying the truth is no help at all."

Do yourself a favor and take your own advice.

Because more women than men are killed in domestic violence it does not automatically follow that men are more violent than women in domestic situations. If you want to present an argument based on statistics then the statistics must back up your argument. In this case they only back up the argument that more men murder in domestic situations. In no way can they support an argument that men are more violent in general. Murder is not the only type of behaviour that can be defined as violence.

The latter argument can only be supported by statistics which show that men commit more acts of violence than women do and there are no reliable statistics which show this. Any statistics can only be based on reported acts of violence. Anecdotal evidence is not enough to create statistics. It is true to say that reported acts of violence against women outnumber those against men but that does not prove that men are more violent. Men may choose not to report acts of violence against them for a number of reasons. Until you can be assured that all acts against either gender are reported comprehensively then you cannot substantiate an argument that men are more violent than women in domestic situations.

It may well be true that men perpetrate more acts of violence but we cannot really tell that from the statistics presented. It is not a valid argument.

Phanto, I would call murder the ultimate act of violence really, wouldn't you?

We need to speak out for all victims of family violence of course, but surely we should be concentrating firstly on the largest group of perpetrators of domestic violence?

Men are the largest group of men on men, and men on women violence, so there is no point denying it. Let's just get on with trying to stop it.

Suzeonline:
Of course murder is the ultimate act of violence but the fact that some men murder their domestic partner does not mean that men are more violent than women. Some women also murder their male partners so you could also use the same argument to suggest that women are more violent than men.

If you are trying to argue who is the more murderous then you would have to have to look at the statistics. Nearly all murders are reported one way or another and so the statistics are a valuable basis for an argument. You could say with fair certainty that more men murder their domestic partner than do women but that is not the same thing as saying men are more violent than women. Violence includes a whole range of physical harm and not just murder so if you are trying to determine which gender is the more violent then you have to look at all forms of violence.

The statistics do not prove which gender is the more violent – they only show which gender has reported violence more. If we are trying to get to the bottom of the problem we have to be honest about what can be proven and what cannot be. If you cannot prove the statistical background of an argument then it is unfair to present it as an argument. You may well be right about men being more violent than women but you do not have an argument to support your case. You simply do not know who are the largest group of perpetrators of domestic violence you only know which group has reported the most and that cannot be a measure. How many five-year-olds report domestic violence at the hands of their mothers? Does that mean it does not exist even in ‘epidemic' proportions?

<Men are the largest group of men on men, and men on women violence, so there is no <point denying it. Let's just get on with trying to stop it.
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 17 March 2015 9:38:37 AM

Phanto has raised some good and valid points.

http://www.franks.org/fr01060.htm

At risk of getting abused by our resident feminists, There are cases where women get men to do the dirty work for them.

Recent examples, a man who was accused of child abuse, was killed, another male who was gay was accused of rape and he was killed by so called good samaritans.

I am not sure how many fights are started in night clubs or pubs, by a girl friend saying to her boy friend that some guy had tried to 'chat her up'.

"but surely we should be concentrating firstly on the largest group of perpetrators of domestic violence"

and current stat's that actually ask both genders about DV indicate that women initiate more DV than men (hardly surprising after decades of DV messages focussed solely on DV initiated by men).

Which ever way you look at it there have been decades of one sided messages about DV, if it's concentrate on the largest group of perpetrators then the message is currently targeting the wrong gender, if it's an issue of "firstly" then it's well past time to broaden the scope.

The trouble is that the gender warriors don't want any acknowledgement that it's not a simple gender paradigm with the occasional ever so rare exception (which is just her striking back against his emotional bullying). They have too much riding on their precious myth of patriarchy to be willing to accept that's not the way most western homes work. To many advantages to be gained for women through the family law system by misuse of the concept of battered wives to deal with the issue with any kind of honesty.

So the diversions, the lies, the spin will continue regardless of how much evidence is put before them.

R0bert