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The Forum > Article Comments > New fascism reflected in Charlie Hebdo Paris shootings > Comments

New fascism reflected in Charlie Hebdo Paris shootings : Comments

By Mal Fletcher, published 8/1/2015

We must stare down this new form of fascism with the same clear thinking and bold resolve our forebears demonstrated in their battles with twentieth century varieties.

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The murders were a barbarous assault on freedom. However, to term them fascism is a misuse of the word. Fascism involves a form of government with a dictator, an extreme nationalist ideology, excessive militarism, one party government, military pomp and many other items that were not exemplified in the Paris shootings. The shootings apparently were an expression of the fanaticism and intolerance that exists in Islam and all of the other major world religions. Let us label it for what it is rather than inappropriately name it fascism.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 8 January 2015 9:44:03 AM
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This kind of repression for freedom of expression should and will never be tolerated. I don't know what these lunatics who committed these crimes hope to achieve by carrying out this vile despicable act, it should fuel even more satirical comical expression for this type of comical art. It doesn't matter what religion you believe in or not believe in, this magazine makes fun of it all!
There are people all over this world who make fun of Jesus Christ and Christianity for example, but we don't hear of devotees of the christian faith going out and killing people who make fun of JC and Christianity. It is no ones place to be the final judge of this type of human behavior in regards to freedom of expression. It is up to God and God only to be the final judge of it all...

However, a symptom of living in the 21st century is going to be tolerance.. a rare word indeed in this age of religious confusion and disorientation.

These criminals have taken upon themselves to be judge, jury and executioner of those who are perceived to be making fun of Mohammed and the Islamic faith. What a hopeless cause they have set for themselves.. doomed to failure imo.
Posted by Rojama, Thursday, 8 January 2015 9:59:59 AM
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The term fascism in relation to terrorism is unhelpful even counter-productive.

The term "Islamo-Fascism" proved evocative to a small group of Jewish Neocons, from the US, immediate post 9/11, but fortunately has declined as a label.

Fascism very much applied/applies to centralised, states and militarism. Germany, Japan and Italy in WWII, perhaps Putin's Russia now.

Highly fragmented Islamic terrorism is not centralised, not hierchical and not establish-state based.

At a stretch Saudi Arabia's Hierarchical Royal Family and Aristocracy, many of whom fund terrorism - is the closest thing to fascist. But of course Saudi Arabia has never been associated with terrorism - isn't that right? Even after 9/11 which was mainly organised by Saudis (eg bin Laden) and manned by Saudis.
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 8 January 2015 10:14:58 AM
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“Prominent Muslim leaders also decried and disowned the violence.” But this is not enough. Islam has to start admitting that many of their basic attitudes are totally unacceptable to the vast majority of human beings. Examples are the Muslim attitude to women, to the infallibility of Mohammed and the Koran, to the promotion of the idea that all non-Muslems are irrelevant or worse, to the assumed right that a fatwa can be issued to threaten anyone who offends them, the Halal tax on everyone and even more their attitude to individuals and free speech.

Prominent Moslems have to deal with these problems or very sadly the rest of the world will have to admit that we have to abandon our attitude of tolerance and acceptance of all or any peculiar beliefs as long as they do not interfere with our way of life. Unfortunately Muslim are not respectful of life and are beginning to interfere with normal life and it is doubtful if their behaviour can be written off and excused much longer by the explanation that these individuals are deranged and should be in a mental hospital. If Muslim leaders do not deal with these problems themselves by bringing the 6th century religion up to the 21st, then someone will have to do it for them. How much can the considerate world take before barbarity is met with substantial resistance. It is not fascism or even repression. It is security of life itself. Without meaningful Muslim leadership intervention there will be obvious nutcake response and then Muslims will cry victimisation

The remark is so nearly right when it travels round the ether “All Muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists seem to be Muslims” .
Posted by Dickybird, Thursday, 8 January 2015 10:15:21 AM
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“Prominent Muslim leaders also decried and disowned the violence.” But this is not enough. Islam has to start admitting that many of their basic attitudes are totally unacceptable to the vast majority of human beings. Examples are the Muslim attitude to women, to the infallibility of Mohammed and the Koran, to the promotion of the idea that all non-Muslims are irrelevant or worse, to the assumed right that a fatwa can be issued to threaten anyone who offends them, the Halal tax on everyone and even more their attitude to individuals and free speech.

Prominent Muslims have to deal with these problems or very sadly the rest of the world will have to admit that we have to abandon our attitude of tolerance and acceptance of all or any peculiar beliefs as long as they do not interfere with our way of life. Unfortunately Muslims are not respectful of life and are beginning to interfere with normal life and it is doubtful if their behaviour can be written off and excused much longer by the explanation that these individuals are deranged and should be in a mental hospital. If Muslim leaders do not deal with these problems themselves by bringing the 6th century religion up to the 21st, then someone will have to do it for them. How much can the considerate world take before barbarity is met with substantial resistance. It is not fascism or even repression. It is security of life itself. Without meaningful Muslim leadership intervention there will be obvious nutcake response and then Muslims will cry victimisation.

The remark is so nearly right when it travels round the ether “All Muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists seem to be Muslims” .
Posted by Dickybird, Thursday, 8 January 2015 10:19:24 AM
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Quotte: we must resist the temptation to respond to this threat with abject fear, which leads to a loss of perspective; or hatred...

We must respond to these vile events with HONESTY. We must be able to express the simple fact that Islam itself is the cause of most of the problems of the Muslim world, including the immigrants that leave chaotic Islamic countries and then bring their hate and violence with them.

The fact is that our leaders are part of the problem. Instead of "clear thinking and bold resolve", they are drunk with the wine of multiculturalism, putting political correctness above the interests of the people. The West will pay dearly for this foolishness
Posted by kactuz, Thursday, 8 January 2015 10:21:36 AM
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Apologies for the double post. But when I posted the first one I was informed that the Web Site was down so I assumed it hadn't been accepted
Posted by Dickybird, Thursday, 8 January 2015 10:27:36 AM
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Why is it that a truly fascist act such as the May massacre in Odessa can pass unnoticed in the MSM, while the work of stone nutters like those recently involved in the cartoon shop in Paris or the coffee shop in Sydney get the press all slavering about fascist in our midst?
There is a new fascism on the march in the world, and it holds office in Kiev and Jerusalem. Let's not confuse that with the depredations of nutters who try to cloak their acts in a religious mantle fashioned well outside the norms of this or that religion.
Posted by halduell, Thursday, 8 January 2015 10:50:46 AM
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These people are not terrorists, they targeted the people they wanted to kill quite specifically. They more correctly should just be called murders or perhaps assassins. Regardless, the act is a logical result of the continual character assassination that Charlie Hebdo has been engaging in. If you throw enough sh1t you are bound to get some back.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Thursday, 8 January 2015 10:52:07 AM
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Pakistan (particularly its Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI) has frequently provided training, operational direction and armed Islamic terrorists. So there may be some relevance to events in France.

A precedent of the Pakistan connection is Mumbai 26/11/2008 see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks

"A series of twelve coordinated shooting and bombing attacks lasting four days occurred across Mumbai,[6][7] carried out by Pakistani members of Lashkar-e-Taiba...the attacks were conducted with the support of Pakistan Government's intelligence agency ISI."
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 8 January 2015 11:07:42 AM
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sad and ironic that the socialist/secularist who have displayed a pathological hatred for Christ are now under attack by those they have largely avoided criticising. Still the unsafest place of any human being is in the mother's womb. The apologist are already out in force. Maybe account number 5000 of the lone wolves. There is nothing new about this 'facism'. Brave men and woman who have warned of this for decades were demonised by those dumb or deceitful enough to now ask how could this happen in Australia, sorry France, or was it Britian, or Germany or Sweden or the USA. I am losing track of which Islamic attack we are talking about.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 8 January 2015 11:36:42 AM
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Dear runner

Please leave Christ out of Christianity - an affliction too often blighted by priestly buggery.

When I last consulted Jesus he was above your petty religious point scoring.

Bless Youse

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 8 January 2015 11:58:47 AM
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If Islam was a therapeutic good it would have been removed from the market long ago.
Posted by SPQR, Thursday, 8 January 2015 11:59:55 AM
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I tend to disagree with the Author's view, inasmuch as he seems to resist any action against the Islamification of the, traditionally Christian host countries, which are indubitably under the threat of Islamic inspired terrorism!

And makes almost as much sense as pre war Britannia saying, we must maintain an open door policy towards the Germans, even if a few of them are hostile Nazis/fifth columnists.

For mine, we need a better system of vetting these people, to isolate and expose the murderous criminal filth, hiding in their midst.

Let see how these Islamic heroes fare, when they test their mettle against armed professional soldiers; returning fire with interest!

I mean, these craven cowards, traditionally cower behind their own civilian populations, even as they maintain their war on the infidels!

If we are in a real war, shouldn't the enemy aliens, [even second or third generation,] be interred for the duration, least we have endless repetitions of these very events.

Why is there this endless reluctance to reexamine who we have allowed among us; and who are ideologically opposed to almost everything we believe in, including democracy and personal freedom!

And may mark themselves as such by refusing to vote; and or, advocate the same course of action for everyone else?

There is only one way to restore our security, and that is borne out in the Northern Island example, where every door was knocked on and every unlicensed weapon removed, along with their owners!

And we must get past this seeming official reluctance to use space age technology to expose those who shelter among us, and desire with every fibre of their being, to harm us or wipe us off of the face of the planet!

We should be concerned at possibly offending them? Really?

For mine I'd deport or inter, wherever possible, every suspect one of them!
You wouldn't allow a savage dog to roam the streets, would you?

As history proves, there is no way to appease madmen who want to conquer/rule the world!

But instead, must be eliminated with extreme prejudice; as rapidly as possible!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Thursday, 8 January 2015 12:06:02 PM
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thanks for demonstrating my point plantagenet
Posted by runner, Thursday, 8 January 2015 12:23:07 PM
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To equate Islamic hate and violence (termed “facism” by the author) with the nonviolent protests of people peacefully proclaiming their apprehension about the hostility and brutality Muslims are bringing to the West (the other ‘facism’, according to the article) is outrageous.

The only people here with “selective views” of past and present are Muslims. They are the ones that pretend that the Quran is not full of hate and violence. They are the ones that consider a man who attacked his neighbors dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of times to be a great moral example., even though he committed all kinds of atrocities (just like today in Paris)

The only facism here is Islam, a dogma that teaches hate and violence against non-Muslims (you know, those “lower than animal” infidels, according to the Quran). The facts are simple: Muslims cannot, will not, live in peace, in numbers, with non-Muslims. Our leaders betray us. The future will not be nice
Posted by kactuz, Thursday, 8 January 2015 12:26:51 PM
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Ok, for the 512th time I'll explain that Islamists like Al Nusra and Daesh are ANTI FASCIST groups.
Bashar Al Assad = A Fascist.
Abu-Bakr Al Baghdadi= An Anti Fascist.

Assad the elder was affiliated with Syrian National Socialists like Antunin Saadin and Al-hizb, Al-suri (SSNP), the SSNP still holds seats in the Syrian parliament.
You could call Ghadaffi a Fascist, the Lebanese Falange are a fascist group, Saddam Hussein was a Fascist to be sure but Islamism is the exact opposite of all those people stood for.
Therte's a tactic common to all Anti Fascists , be they Anarchists, Trotskyites, Zionists or Islamists they put most of their energy into vioplently shutting down free speech by those they label as "Fascists".
You can see Anti Fascists in action here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS_q6RG6CR4
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 8 January 2015 1:17:47 PM
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Runner,
Yeah it is sad isn't it, the 1968 generation should herewith die of shame, if they haven't already.
What would Che do? Rhetorical question, we know what Che would have done, the Seine would be running red with blood by now if Commies were still Commies.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 8 January 2015 1:53:46 PM
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No, this is not the 'new fascism' but the old Islam, the atrocity is just another phase in the 1400 year war with the Kuffars. Why are anti-Islamification movements necessarily 'fascist'? People could be joining anti-Islamification organisations because they are actually concerned about creeping Islamification, not because they are longing for a strong leader or because they like tight pants, leather and goose-stepping.
Posted by mac, Thursday, 8 January 2015 2:50:58 PM
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McAdam and NC, where are you when Islam needs you?

"Black Flag" is dropping down the page but this topic is up the top.

C'mon lads, let's hear it for the downtrodden Muslims.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 8 January 2015 3:26:43 PM
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I think I speak for McAdam and NC, not to mention politicians and the MSM, when I say that Islamism has nothing to do with Islam.
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Thursday, 8 January 2015 3:50:29 PM
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"Je suis Charlie"

http://time.com/3658499/london-crowds-unity-charlie-hebdo/
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 8 January 2015 4:18:07 PM
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JKJ
It doesn't matter, wherever you find Muslims you also find Islamists, Japan and Korea don't have an Islamist problem do they?
Islamism is an offshoot of Islam, or a sect or a political tendency and it's inseparable from the whole.
The only way to avoid Islamist violence is to avoid Muslims, since as the Left are constantly telling us the people bearing the brunt of Jihadi crimes are other Muslims....well even that's not strictly true since all of the recent spate of terrorist attacks in the West have targeted non Muslims and the vast bulk of victims in Iraq and Syria have been Christians, Zoroastrians, Alawites and Shia.

When will you lefties learn ? It's not my old White man's values which are under attack, it's your liberalism, your multiculturalism, your tolerance and compassion which are being attacked. I've got nothing to lose, to live with Islamists all I'd have to do would be convert and not much in my life would change, you'd lose everything, including probably your life.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 8 January 2015 4:46:08 PM
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The Religion of Peace strikes again.

Surely, what we need is more Muslims in Australia and the West.

Imagine how much more peaceful we'd be?

And those Germans marching against the islamification of Europe.

What is wrong with them?

/end sarc
Posted by dane, Thursday, 8 January 2015 4:50:55 PM
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This could be the most significant terrorist attack since 9/11. The target of the attack was a left wing satirical newspaper. Lefties everywhere who have previously rushed to the defence of Islam, because doing so was sticking it to the Establishment, are now feeling like Christian Scientists with appendicitis.

The Dutch lefties and homosexuals may have woken up to the threat of Islam after the assassinations of Theo van Gogh and Pym Portyn, but the rest of our Internationalist comrades are still in denial. And that includes the author of this article, who is still pushing the line that most Muslims do not support the terrorists who fight against the west. He even goes so far as to claim that those who oppose Islamic immigration are just as bad as the Muslim terrorists themselves.

This author can't get it through his head that now that Nazism and Communism have been crushed, Islam has become the new contender for world domination against the secular democracies. The real villains are the Islamic mullahs of every shade of Islam, who seriously think that the time has come for Islam to rule the world. They know that time is against them, because their ignorant followers are being daily reminded of the failure of Islam to give them a better life. Muslims everywhere know that their own lifestyles simply do not compare with the prosperity and personnel freedoms in the non Muslim, western oriented world. The Mullahs need to move now before their brain washed followers start thinking, and they run out of oil. The Mullahs fully intend to use their own indoctrinated youth in western countries that we have foolishly imported, to get the point across that non Muslims will submit to their value systems, or else.

The point they are getting across with the Paris attack, is that we will not criticise, satirise, or question their religion at all. But this author is still mired in his multicultural utopian world, that he will never see that his civilisation is under attack from Islam, until a jihadi sticks an AK 47 in his face.
Posted by LEGO, Thursday, 8 January 2015 5:27:24 PM
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Jay
Yes I agree. I was only joking.
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Thursday, 8 January 2015 6:07:13 PM
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A French government Intelligence offical said; "We are at war !"
A bit late it started 1400 years ago !
I have believed that for some time and agree with Rhosty, it is now
time to apply the rules of war.
In time of war a nation is at war with another nation.
The nature of war has been changed by the Islamist forces in that they do not,
until recently, act as the forces of a particular nation.
They have recently established a country known as a caliphate with the name Islamic State.

Various groups giving allegiance to one another and IS are the new
belligerent force with whom we are engaged.
Western countries must officially declare war on IS and its aligned forces.
Then we can intern all those we believe maybe a threat or give them
the option of repatriation as POWs.
Those not thought to be a threat can be interned or offered repatriation
to enemy countries of choice as enemy aliens.
An alternative might be to find an island to which they can be deported
and become a protectorate of Australia. It might not be
possible to find a large enough Island.

Now I know certain people who inhabit this space will be LOL at my
suggestions, but I would draw their attention that the above
suggestions are perfectly normal in time of war.

Anyone opposing such actions is aiding the enemy.
A court could in time of war consider that opposition as treason.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 8 January 2015 6:40:10 PM
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LEGO,

I find it hard to understand too. I mean how many terrorist attacks does it take before people get it through their thick heads that they don't like us, our culture or our way of life.

The fact that only a minority of muslims are terrorists is mute. Terrorists can't survive if they can't hide in a sympathetic population. If muslims want to be accepted by the west then it is up to them root out and eliminate terrorism.

Why would we import people who don't even like us?
Posted by dane, Thursday, 8 January 2015 6:41:04 PM
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I'm devastated by this senseless violence and loss of life of those whose mission was to lampoon and expose the evil and lies represented not just by religious extremists, but by politicians, corporations and 'leaders' from all nations.
The rhetorical tragedy is that extremist groups make no 'coherent' critique of the West, and thus our leaders are able to pass off our 'freedoms', and 'way of life' as above reproach, to represent us as the opposite of evil. The baddies make us look good.
Posted by Squeers, Thursday, 8 January 2015 7:21:14 PM
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Squeers,
If you think the Islamist critique of Liberalism is incoherent it's probably because you've been getting second hand, heavily edited versions of Islamic sermons and articles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8kBSPdCtQc

On Charlie Hebdo and Islamophobia
http://therightstuff.biz/2015/01/08/on-charlie-hebdo-and-islamophobia/#more-12766
Great last paragraph, I too can understand why the Muslim warrior calmly walked up to a wounded, surrendering Gendarme and blew his brains out but I can't fathom the mindset of Leftists and Liberals who pretend to be more afraid of the FN, PEGIDA or Bloc Identitaire than of gun toting Muslims. Pride perhaps? Low self esteem?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 8 January 2015 7:51:50 PM
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Jay Of Melbourne,
yours is exactly the kind of insidious fascism Mal Fletcher alludes to. You're in your element!
Posted by Squeers, Thursday, 8 January 2015 8:30:35 PM
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Another attack in France, this time one dead a policewoman, and a
policeman wounded in a one man attack.

No direct connection to the Charlie killings.

So it goes on and on.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 8 January 2015 9:24:47 PM
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Latest attack in France
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11332148/Police-officers-targeted-in-second-Paris-gun-attack.html
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 8 January 2015 9:42:43 PM
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Jay of Melbourne writes;

“I too can understand why the Muslim warrior calmly walked up to a wounded, surrendering Gendarme and blew his brains out” could just have easily been written;

'I too can understand why the Muslim warrior calmly walked up to a wounded, surrendering Muslim Gendarme and blew his brains out'

But it wasn't. Nor was that little fact mentioned in the article he linked to which posted less than 3 hours ago and the writer would well have known about it.

Two police officers died in Paris today, Ahmed Merabet and Franck Brinsolaro. Both lost their lives in the line of duty and the service of their community. Note the singular.

There are those, including the gunmen, who strive to force the plural on to us, to claim we inhabit separate communities, ones that need to be defended from the 'other'. There are those who will use this tragedy for exactly the same intent.

Sobering times.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 8 January 2015 9:51:02 PM
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Why France? Why now?
Oh, that's right. France just 1) recognised Palestinian statehood and 2) called for an end to the Russian sanctions.
Can't have that now, can we! Better send in a professional hit-squad (where did they get their training again?) to pull those froggies back into line.
Posted by halduell, Thursday, 8 January 2015 11:22:36 PM
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JoM,

The answer to your question is just colossal moral vanity. A narcissism so deep and so pervasive in our cultural and political elites that atrocity after atrocity only strengthens their resolve to further deny reality. Of course, to admit anything else would be to challenge their whole world view that our culture is so worthless it should be drowned by mass third world immigration.

People die and we live in terror for their vanity.

Disgusting.

To be honest, and tasteless, at least the people murdered were mad left-wingers. It is sad but not surprising that their chickens are coming home to roost.
Posted by dane, Thursday, 8 January 2015 11:43:24 PM
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"It doesn't matter, wherever you find Muslims you also find Islamists"

A fascinating argument.

Wherever you find decent, law-abiding, rational folk you also find violent thugs, criminals, and extremists.

Hinduism is mostly a religion of peace, but there used to be a sect of Hindus known as 'Thuggees' (from whence the term 'thug' is derived). They worshipped Kali, the Hindu goddess of death and destruction. They used to murder people as part of their religious observances, like the Aztecs, Christians and Muslims used to, and like the Muslims and Christians still do. Estimates of their death toll vary widely, but even conservative estimates show them to be the most lethal terrorist group in recorded history.

They were suppressed (violently) by the British Raj, and as direct result have gone the way of the dodo, no more to trouble us again, and are nothing more than an interesting historical footnote.

No doubt there were some agitators at the time who said things like "It doesn't matter, wherever you find Hindus you also find Thuggees", and on that basis advocated for the wholesale elimination of all the funny-looking foreign devils. Thankfully wiser heads prevailed, and so whilst the Thuggees danced the hangman's jig on the gallows, the wider Hindu population was not unduly persecuted.

Maybe that's a bit of shame: if they'd rounded them all up then I might not have to put up with sub-continental telemarketers disturbing my peace and quiet. But what justice would there have been in hanging every Hindu for the crimes of the Thuggees? That would have been more thuggish than the Thuggees.

Criminals should be persecuted, innocent people should not be persecuted. If anybody disagrees with the previous sentence, I'd really like to know exactly what it is you disagree with.
Posted by Jonathon Swift, Friday, 9 January 2015 1:49:22 AM
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Hi Jonathan Swift.

You claim that Christians and Muslims engage in human sacrifice? Ahhhh, I think that most readers would be looking askance at you for that one.

Your position seems to be, that "Islamism" is a sect of Islam, so we can not hold all Muslims accountable for the actions of this sect. . Your lefty position conforms to the lefty utopian dream that most people are just want to live in peace with their neighbours, and only a few extremists in every society are to blame for human intergroup hostility.

You are wrong for two reasons. The first, is that the term "Islamism" is an invention of loony lefties like good self, who are trying to distance Islam from terrorism. It is exactly like saying that most Ku Klux Klansmen are decent people and only a few "extremists" who are "Kluxxors" make the majority of nice Klansmen look bad. Or that almost all Nazis are nice and decent people, and only a hand full of "Naziists" are the problem. Your position is a clear double standard.

The second, is that like the "Thugees" of old, the ideology of Islam holds that their God orders Muslims to spread Islam by force, and never live in peace with their neighbours. The Koran even orders Muslims to be prepared to fight infidels "who Allah knowest, but whom you knowest not."

We have an internationally recognised religion which orders it's followers to kill, torture, enslave, and maim to advance their religion, and you don't see a problem with that? And when Muslims do just what their religion orders them to do, you sit around making excuses because your humanitarian ideology forbids you to think that all religions are equal, and most people are decent.

Most Muslims may not want to go on Jihad, but they are not going to criticise those who do, because according to their religion, Jihadis and Ghazis (those who have killed a non believer) are the most pious Muslims around. These Muslims (and their families) are the ones who will most certainly get Allah's rewards in the afterlife
Posted by LEGO, Friday, 9 January 2015 3:33:37 AM
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Jonathon,

“wherever you find Muslims you also find Islamists"

A better understanding is this: wherever you find Muslims you find people that have no problem with the hate and violence in the Quran or the evil deeds of Mohammad -- and so the ones that attack and kill are called “Islamists” and the ones that make excuses and blame others are called “moderate” Muslims. Either variety will bring pain and suffering, it is just a matter of degree.

Whatever the sins of Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Aztecs (?), they pale in comparison to the tidal wave of Muslim violence that is engulfing our world. Worse yet, there is no sign that Muslims or our leaders have learned anything (well except maybe el-Sissi in his recent speech). What we are seeing is a return to the brutal, aggressive Islam of the days of Mohammed.

Innocent people should not be persecuted, but if they support hate, oppression and violence, as all Muslims do, this should be brought to their attention, just like Charlie Hebdo was doing. I have no problem with hurting Muslims’ feelings when the issue is freedom, human rights, peace and equality.

Dane,

You have it exactly right: The problem is the mutual self-reinforcement of a narcissism so deep and so pervasive in our cultural and political elites that they refuse to see the obvious. They are “compassionate” and enlightened so they are better than us, and woe to the leader that dares break ranks. They have tossed all the values that have made Western civilization great (honesty, moral awareness, equality, etc.) and replaced them with spineless, braindead multiculturalism that only knows one answer: If there are problems, then it must be the Western Culture’s fault.

This tragedy in Paris will change nothing. I see no indication that our leaders or Muslims have learned anything

PS: Expedia has a list of terror attacks for every year, but I missed the Aztec ones. I blame the conquistadores.
Posted by kactuz, Friday, 9 January 2015 3:43:50 AM
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Jonathon Swift wrote. “Criminals should be persecuted, innocent people should not be persecuted.” and asked what is it that one disagrees with.

Nobody should be persecuted. Persecution is hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs; oppression.

Those suspected of criminality, if reasonable cause for suspicion be established, should be prosecuted in a fair trial and, if found guilty, should be subject to the penalty prescribed by law.

Perhaps Jonathon Swift erred and meant, “Criminals should be prosecuted, innocent people should not be prosecuted.”

In our system those accused of crime are given the presumption of innocence until guilt is established beyond a reasonable doubt. Therefore only innocent people are prosecuted. They remain innocent unless found guilty through due process of law.

The meaning of Jonathon Swift’s statement is moot.

However, one can make a case that human hostility is exacerbated by religion.

continued
Posted by david f, Friday, 9 January 2015 4:07:01 AM
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continued

Recent and current conflicts have often fallen on religious lines. The conflicts in the former Yugoslavia were between Catholics, Orthodox Christians and Muslims. The conflicts in Israel/Palestine are between Muslims and Jews. The conflicts in Northern Ireland were between Catholic and Protestant. The Holocaust during WW2 was partially the product of centuries of Christian anti-Semitism. The conflict in Sri Lanka is between the Buddhist rulers and the Hindu Tamil minority. In the occupied territories of Palestine some of the Jewish settlements contain people who think God is a real estate dealer who has given them the land. In China the Muslim Uighurs and the Buddhist Tibetans have demonstrated, committed violence and immolated themselves in protest against Chinese rule in which the state controls religion.

Conflicts with a religious element may result from religion seeking dominance or government suppressing religion. To lessen conflict due to religion, religion should not use the government to promote religion, and government should regard religion as none of its business regardless of the religious beliefs of citizens of the country.

There can be separation of religion and state in Muslim countries.
In some countries the application of Sharia varies by region.

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law contains a map.

Note that some countries with a Muslim majority are not under Sharia at all. Note that only a few countries with a Muslim majority are under Sharia.

I am very concerned with the lack of the separation of religion and state in Australia. I think public schools should be open to all children, should push no religion and have science teaching unaffected by religious beliefs. However, there are chaplains in the public schools. Most of them are fundamentalist Christians provided by Scripture Union and Access Ministries. They would replace the science of evolution by Creationism. Religious chaplains have no place in the public schools.

The chief offender against the separation of religion and state in Australia is Christianity not Islam

However, I think separation of religion and state would help lessen conflict any place.

In a free society no institution should be free from comment or criticism. That includes religion.
Posted by david f, Friday, 9 January 2015 4:14:54 AM
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See video. Policeman gets shot lays on the pavement with no evidence of blood. Terrorist comes in at point blank range to finish him off and misses. Again no blood and no mark on the pavement due to the miss. Bullets appear to be blanks.
http://aanirfan.blogspot.com.au/2015/01/mossad-attacks-paris.html

Terrorists flee in their car leaving behind ID for police to find.

Dr Paul Craig Roberts the ex-assistant Secretary to the US Treasury also smells a rat.
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/01/08/charlie-hebdo-tsarnaevs-trial-qui-bono/
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 9 January 2015 5:27:12 AM
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@ Steele

<<There are those, including the gunmen...who claim we inhabit separate communities>>

And there some like your good self sir (to use a steeleism) who clearly are not of any earthly community.
Posted by SPQR, Friday, 9 January 2015 6:23:11 AM
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dane:

"To be honest, and tasteless, at least the people murdered were mad left-wingers".

Just a shame it wasn't you and your unspeakable ilk, dane!
Posted by Squeers, Friday, 9 January 2015 6:32:13 AM
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But what did we do to cause them so much upset to lash out? I'm sure that if the magazine had offered to sit down and talk out their disrespectful nature it could have been avoided. That and paying their jizya to the Caliphate.

Surely this can be expanded by "our" ABC?
Posted by McCackie, Friday, 9 January 2015 7:01:13 AM
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Has the Victorian Government apologised to the two Pastors in Victoria who were charged for religous vilification when they spoke the truth about Islam? We have the Federal Government paying Islam apologist to speak fork tongued on the ABC/SBS etc and then have these fools denying the obvious and demonising anyone who speaks the truth.
Posted by runner, Friday, 9 January 2015 8:15:25 AM
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Arjay,

My initial reaction to your post was the negative one of 'Conspiracy Theory' however I watched the video and as one who has seen his share of gun shot trauma, including point blank shots to the head, I must say that the video raises doubts.

The video has since been removed by Google.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 9 January 2015 8:57:29 AM
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http://www.thenation.com/blog/194465/whats-real-reason-al-qaeda-attacked-charlie-hebdo?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=email_nation&utm_campaign=Email%20Nation%20%28NEW%29%20-%20Most%20Recent%20Content%20Feed%2020150108&newsletter=email_nation contains:

“Al Qaeda wants to mentally colonize French Muslims, but faces a wall of disinterest. But if it can get non-Muslim French to be beastly to ethnic Muslims on the grounds that they are Muslims, it can start creating a common political identity around grievance against discrimination.”

One way to get the mostly tolerant French to be beastly to Muslims is to commit an atrocity against a French icon and have that atrocity identified with Islam.

The strategy may well work. One way to keep it from working is to treat individual Muslims like any other individuals.

From the article:

“The operatives who carried out this attack exhibit signs of professional training. They spoke unaccented French, and so certainly know that they are playing into the hands of Marine Le Pen and the Islamophobic French right wing. They may have been French, but they appear to have been battle-hardened. This horrific murder was not a pious protest against the defamation of a religious icon. It was an attempt to provoke European society into pogroms against French Muslims, at which point Al Qaeda recruitment would suddenly exhibit some successes, instead of faltering in the face of lively Beur youth culture (French Arabs playfully call themselves by this slang term). Ironically, there are reports that one of the two policemen they killed was a Muslim.”

The hypothesis may be valid. Sometimes there is a real conspiracy behind a conspiracy theory.
Posted by david f, Friday, 9 January 2015 10:18:33 AM
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David f,
I think while your reasoning may have a logical path such a path
would just lead to the continuation of the Islamisation of Europe and
putting off the final confrontation.
The later the confrontation the greater the advantage to the Islamists.

Your process would be fine if there was not an intention to replace
democracy with a theocratic government implementing Sharia Law.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 9 January 2015 12:35:24 PM
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The FN aren't Islamophobic, they're anti immigration but they're completely non violent and intent on mainstreaming their very mild viewpoint. There's not going to be a "backlash", most of the right see the Charlie Hebdo massacre as poetic justice and that the old Communists who worked there definitely got what was coming to them.

I keep saying, the "clash of cultures" is between Western Neo-Liberalism and Islam, between a society which counts Gay marriage as one of it's greatest achievements and a medieval, Arab supremacist military cult, we the "right" have no interest in joining the war between our enemies, only in the outcome of the last battles.
http://www.radixjournal.com/journal/keep-calm-and-ride-the-tiger
Let Islam and Neo-Liberalism bleed each other white, then the right will be in a position to set the terms of the peace agreement, if not take over from "among the ruins".
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 9 January 2015 2:27:56 PM
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Mise you can still see the fake shooting of the policeman. Just scroll down here.http://aanirfan.blogspot.com.au/2015/01/mossad-attacks-paris.html
Looks like another false flag attack. Why would terrorists smart enough to plan this leave their ID in the backseat of the get away car ? This is reminds me of 911 when passports in perfect condition survived explosions and fire when bodies were burnt to a crisp. Total BS.
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 9 January 2015 4:30:52 PM
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Squeers,

I defend liberal western democracies against an intolerant backward people who commit atrocity after atrocity and people like you wish me dead.

That is exactly the sort of colossal moral vanity that I am talking about. You would rather have people who disagree with you dead than admit you are wrong.

In France there are calls for a day of national solidarity on Sunday. All groups will be invited except the FN who will be excluded. Of course, to invite them would be to admit that the constant warnings from the FN of the danger posed by importing people with vastly different values were right all along. Again, the moral vanity of the Left is just staggering.

And of course, the true brilliance of this attack will be played down by our Left wing media and politicians. This attack drove a knife through the heart of Western values. From now on, every single editor, in every single news organisation across the Western world will think very, very carefully about ever criticizing Islam. Strategically and tactically the attack was an enormous success.

You should be pleased.
Posted by dane, Friday, 9 January 2015 5:00:07 PM
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Arjay,
The gunman probably wanted the Gendarmes and the world to know who they were dealing with, this is propaganda by the deed, it's all about maximising media exposure.
These are hard core militants, we've already got Liberals in the media describing them as "nobodies" and "small fry", they're trying to play down their connections to Islamist groups in order to paint it as something other than Muslim terrorism but it's now evident that the older brother at least is a trained and experienced guerrilla fighter who's seen action in the middle east.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 9 January 2015 5:13:51 PM
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dane,
don't add hypocrisy to your sins!
You attacked the French journalists, belittling their deaths for being "mad left-wingers".
Your comment sickened me so I turned it on you, though certainly I value the kind of bipartisan satirical position I believe these journalists were dedicated to, to the empty nationalist, liberalism you and your mates love to waffle about.
Posted by Squeers, Friday, 9 January 2015 5:28:32 PM
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Squeers,

Ha. I've been around far too long to ever expect people like you to take responsibility for your views or actions.

With Leftists, it's always someone else's fault.

I guess some of us made it adulthood, others never do.
Posted by dane, Friday, 9 January 2015 5:39:25 PM
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Meanwhile those Nigerian Muslims who also aren't at all representative of Islam have wiped out another village and stormed an army post:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/64791635/boko-haram-kills-dozens-in-fresh-raids.html
What's that figure again Dane? 8,000 or so people killed by Muslim terrorists since last August?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 9 January 2015 5:47:59 PM
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Arjay,

I had a prolonged look at the video and, having fired some hundreds of rounds from the AK47, in various configurations, I am struck by the apparent lack of recoil; of course the gunmen might have been using reduced load rounds for better control, but that doesn't cover the apparent lack of blood and body reaction.
There seems to be dust from one shot or it might be powder smoke (not all 'smokeless' powder is actually smokeless).
The fact that Google keeps taking down the video is rather strange considering what they normally let through.

On the News on the ABC the video was shewn but the shooting of the policeman was cut out.

I'd like to hear what others make of the video.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 9 January 2015 7:11:06 PM
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Oh come on we are all on the same side.
Forget the conspiracy theories, people are being buried.
Or do you need to look in the coffins ?

When my suggestion of declaring war happens then we can put a corden
around Lakembastan and without search warrants disarm them all.

Did any of you see that lady on 7-30 report, sorry can't remember her
name, but she spoke out and has a death fatwer on her because she left Islam.
She is a well known activist. You should listen to her.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 9 January 2015 7:57:21 PM
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Is Mise, you won't hear much analysis from this site as most have a pre-conceived notions of goodies and badies. They won't entertain the idea that their own Govts are into terrorism.

They are using hate of Muslims as a distraction to divide the West while they screw us with debt that is created from nothing under the lie of good economic management.

The new Greek Party Syriza looks like taking control in Greece but Goldman Sachs has threatened Greece with a Cypus style confiscation of bank accounts if they vote for Syriza. Democracy? This is rule by banksters.

Bankers create from nothing as debt,all the money for our Govts to function and thus own us and our Govts.

Israel was a Rothschild concept back in the 1920's and the Rothschilds are the most powerful family on the planet.
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 9 January 2015 8:17:06 PM
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If you don't believe in "persecution", David F, which you define as hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs", then could you please stop "persecuting" the Americans?

Onya, Dane and kactuz.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 10 January 2015 4:07:56 AM
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SteeleRedux

‘Charlie Hebdo's brave, irreverent souls may well have soundly approved.’

One of the Hebdo cartoons has Mohammed naked, on all-fours, arse-up, hairy balls on display, with a porno cameraman filming him from behind. Mohammed is saying, ‘You love my butt?’

This is not free speech or satire. It's deliberate provocation and grotesque cultural insult – not brave irreverance.

Imagine a cartoon of Jews en route to Dachau naked, on all-fours, arse-up … and so on … being filmed by Leni Riefenstahl and saying: ‘You love my butt?’

Or the Virgin Mary or Aboriginals or African Americans or Gazans or Anzacs at Gallipoli or children captive to a paedophile … cartooned in similar manner? Would this be seen as brave irreverance?

Charlie Hebdo repeatedly ignored pleas by the French government to stop ‘pouring oil on a fire’ and ‘being needlessly provocative’. Also, the magazine has twice been sued by separate Islamic groups for inciting ethnic hatred.

The Hebdo victims did not deserve to die in such a manner (and I’m more than suspicious that this may be yet another false flag designed to foster acceptance of enhanced anti-terrorism powers), but Hebdo’s arrogant disdain for cultural sensitivities and its foolish creative urge to ‘push boundaries’ were a massacre waiting to happen
Posted by Killarney, Saturday, 10 January 2015 5:06:41 AM
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Killarney,
Yes, exactly the staff of Charlie Hebdo didn't deserve to die but they got what was coming to them.
The reason Charb and his colleagues were treated leniently by the French authorities is that they were Leftists, some of them old '68 campaigners, the voice of the older generation of French Socialists.
The idea of "free speech" in France is a joke, if you're a Socialist you can say pretty much whatever you want, if you're a right winger or even an outspoken Liberal like Dieudonne and you say something the politicians or the media don't like then you'll be hauled before a court or a human rights tribunal and probably jailed.
This is the country where people go to prison for questioning the "Holocaust" narrative and where the society of historians have signed an agreement to the effect that they will never peer review any study of WW2 which contradicts the Leftist narrative.
The French Left, like the Left everywhere are hypocrites, the problem is that especially at the highest level even when their hypocrisy is exposed there's no dissonsnce in their minds.Even a massacre causes no introspection or self doubt among the leadership group, the Left narrative is busted time and time again but it's all they know so it's all they can do to keep up appearances.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 10 January 2015 5:48:38 AM
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@ You-cant-stop-the-boats-Killarney,

<<Or the Virgin Mary or Aboriginals or African Americans or Gazans or Anzacs at Gallipoli or children captive to a paedophile … cartooned in similar manner? Would this be seen as brave irreverance?>>

I think you will find that similar DEGRADING depictions of western cultural icons are very prevalent in the west ..you might take a peekaboo one day,eh!
Posted by SPQR, Saturday, 10 January 2015 6:54:53 AM
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Dear Lego,

Persecuting the Americans? I am one and am glad to be one. I love my country. It is a free country, and it can even be made better by using our free speech to point out where it can be made better.

It is part of the American tradition to speak up when we see wrong. Henry Thoreau, the Abolitionists, the muckrakers and many others are part of that tradition, and, in my own small way, I hope I am one also.

Mark Twain said, "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." The United States is much more than the government which happens to be in power.

Mark Twain was skeptical about some of those who claim to love their country: "Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Anti-Imperialist_League describes the organisation in which Mark Twain was prominent. He was a patriotic American who was not blind to his country's faults and wanted to make it better.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 10 January 2015 7:46:31 AM
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But you're wrong Davidf and typical of a radical leftist academic who has corrupted the West spreading their propaganda in our institutions.

And you still don't understand Leonard Cohen's lyrics. Interesting you say - yeh? And no further comment. You always refer back to the Year dot and its all been done before and oh those bloody Christians - all their fault. Yet you are unable get Cohen's modern take that is totally irrelevant of the past. How come leftists are so thick and pathetically self righteous and morally sick?

Leonard Cohen - The Future (Lyrics)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnaxvBsyigM
Posted by Constance, Saturday, 10 January 2015 8:39:07 AM
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Bazz,

That was Ayaan Hirsi Ali [one brave lady] and the segment can be seen at
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 January 2015 8:48:33 AM
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Dear Constance,

Anger and invective are poor substitutes for reasoned arguments and civility. I hope you may eventually be at peace with yourself.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 10 January 2015 9:19:05 AM
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Arjay,

This probably won't make the slightest difference for you:

"French media reported that police timed their raid on the supermarket as Coulibaly was at prayer: he reportedly used the store’s phone and failed to hang up."

Not everything in the world is perfectly planned by unbelievably brilliant but evil masterminds. Sometimes, these blokes are like 'The Four Kings', not the brightest little piggies in the litter.

He was using the phone, by the way, to talk to journalists about how he had already killed four of the hostages (who were probably Jewish).

But I'm sure you could explain all that away :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 10 January 2015 9:48:27 AM
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SteeleRedux,

Very funny and I wish that I could photoshop as well as those examples!
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 January 2015 9:50:16 AM
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A little glimmer of hope, a silver lining, but will they or us live to see it come to pass ?

http://tinyurl.com/mx8sf4p

How long did the reformation of Christianity take ?
Several hundred years I think. Do we have that much time ?
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 10 January 2015 10:00:05 AM
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Constance,

To David f: "..... How come leftists are so thick and pathetically self righteous and morally sick?"

How come certain "rightists" are serially abusive and belligerent when they come upon views they don't agree with on public forums?

You love to put up videos of performers you admire to get your message across. Do you think those creative people would stoop to the sort of rhetoric you perpetually slop over your fellow posters?
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 10 January 2015 10:05:44 AM
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What a tragedy this has been. Even worse, as such things are prone to do it will undoubtedly lead to more tragedy. There is no shortage of damaged young men brimming with resentments at mistreatments real and imagined and the inevitable response of authorities will add a few more to the list, to be stirred into a horrid fever-dream of heroic vengeance by psychopaths pretending to be holy men.

My Muslim friends, like decent people everywhere, are aghast. As if the horrors of this attack weren't enough, they are once again forced to run the gauntlet of mistrust from a wary Australian public and feel compelled to apologise for the actions of people from the other side of the world with whom they have about as much in common religiously as a Catholic and a Branch Davidian did.

So sad on every level.
Posted by Craig Minns, Saturday, 10 January 2015 10:16:46 AM
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Dear Killarney

Only a few years ago, a Canberra art exhibition displayed a sculpture depicting our Queen and her husband Prince Phillip, sitting naked on a park bench. In addition, an "artist" in Sydney placed an exhibit entitled "Piss Christ" on display, which was a crucifix submersed in a bottle of human urine. There was a public outcry about both of these works of "art", but the ABC luvvie types laughed their heads off and defended the artists right to parody the Royal family, religion, and anybody else they took aim at. But with Islam, a different rule applies.

Trendies like yourself defend the Muslims right to not be offended because you know that they will react violently, and that will not sit well with your presumption that in a secular, democratic, multicultural society, we can all find common ground and live peacefully. People like yourself wanted to create a non discriminating, tolerant society where everybody was treated equally, and where Human Rights solved everything. But you buggered yourself up when you imported Muslims who have a completely different idea of human rights than you do, are totally intolerant, have bizarre cultural norms, and traditionally react violently to almost any situation which upsets them.

Now you have to defend the indefensible. You want to believe in a society with equality for all, while at the same time finding lame reasons why Muslims should be more equal than the rest of us. The Islamic religion alone must be free of criticism and satire.

It is time to realise that you made a ghastly mistake. Instead, you perform mental gymnastics trying to find excuses as to why Muslims should be treated differently. Almost everything that Muslims believe in is diametrically opposed to everything that we believe in. How on Earth you and your comrades ever thought that you could import people with 12th Century mindsets into advanced societies, and not have them crash around in the China shop, is beyond me. Your humanitarian ideology which regards everybody as equal, and that they must be treated equally, is self evidently not working.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 10 January 2015 10:23:35 AM
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Your Muslim friends are probably "aghast" Craig Minns, because in their societies, had positions been reversed, they would see nothing wrong with exterminating every Christian they could get their hands on. That just happens to be the standard response towards minorities in every Muslim country when they get upset with a minority.

All you have to do is have some design on a pair of Adidas sneakers which looks something like the word "Allah" written in Arabic, and churches get burned, villages raided, and Christians are massacred.

They probably can't understands why we are not doing to them in Australia, what they know they would do to us in their own countries.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 10 January 2015 10:30:14 AM
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Well done LEGO, you win the 'Prize Pinhead of the Month' award. It's a special achievement to manage it so early in the month, but the judges agreed that it's such a perfect example of the rarely seen triple run (off at the mouth; around like a headless chook; and the crowd favourite - the eye-watering through-the legs skulljammer with pike and half twist, now to be forever known as the running joke in your honour) that it deserves proper recognition. You can pick up the award at the front counter, but make sure you give that prizewinning pinhead a thorough clean first. After all, we know where it's been!

It's early days, but some say the performance has a chance for the annual gong!
Posted by Craig Minns, Saturday, 10 January 2015 11:20:53 AM
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LEGO,

"They probably can't understand why we are not doing to them in Australia, what they know they would do to us in their own countries."

And Islamists would interpret that to mean that Westerners are weak, even 'unprincipled', i.e., they don't apply the 'principle' of: schmooze [Teqqiya, lying in the cause) when you are weak, butcher when you are strong.

As for Left-opportunists like Killarney, they tend not only to have the same underlying tendency [weak as piss as they may be], but also an arrogant belief that they can eventually 'use' the Islamists, manipulate them, and then move in once their common enemy has been destroyed.

Bertrand Russell was spot-on when he compared Bolshevism to Islam, both brutal, unspiritual, anti-democratic grabs for power, impatient with the slowness of less brutal, less civilized, means of gaining power. As an ex-believer, I cringe to think how spot-on he was, even back in 1920.

Problem is: guess who will get rubbed out first once the Islamists take power ?

I don't think even Killarney should be forced to imagine his head on a stick. Islamism must be opposed 100 % wherever, like pus out of a sore, it oozes out of the dark. Even for the sake of morons like Killarney.

Craig,

You're sooooo out of your depth: sit back and learn.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 10 January 2015 11:57:03 AM
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Now it's quite interesting that just having given Constance a serve for her invective towards David f, I should probably match that effort and condemn Craig Minns for his effort in response to LEGO.

So I'm wondering whether or not it's just plain bias on my behalf (I'm sure certain among you will help me out there:) that I found Craig's effort quite entertaining - whereas I find Constance's constant invective merely venomous.

Is it because Craig's mockery contained "wit" and "humour" - the sort of material employed by cartoonists to get a serious message across, whereas plain abuse and outrage is limited in its reach.

Here's an example of mockery in relation to Charlie Hebdo...a picture paints a thousand words..and if undertaken with wit an cleverness is apt to be more profound.

http://twitter.com/dcagle/status/553711157249200128
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 10 January 2015 12:07:43 PM
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Arjay,
Still maintain it was a setup job ?
If so why didn't the brothers just disappear, never to be seen again ?
Run out of Bex yet ?

Craig, you are just making a show of yourself. Your last was positively silly.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 10 January 2015 12:53:56 PM
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A good friend just rang me to tell me that his account on "Shooting Australia" [a firearms/shooters site] has been blocked without the courtesy of an explanation, presumably because he had the audacity to post "Je suis Charlie" on their Politics forum.

I think that they've let their powder get wet!!
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 January 2015 1:09:45 PM
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I've not rad all the posts but may have missed something in the discussion. From what I have read Killarneys earlier comments about the characteristics of Charlie sit closest to my own. I share some common ground with the views they may have been expressing but I don't see how those views can be expressed without unnecessary insult to those muslims who ar not jihadists (catholics who don't support covering up child sex abuse etc). I may not agree with their religious views, I may not respect their concept of a god but I don't see a place for unecessary picking at them.

What I've read of Charlies content is reminiscent of bullies with a clever wit and skill at mental abuse who pick and pick at an opponent until that opponent snaps and strikes out. It does not make the striking out OK but it does not make the one using words (or cqrtoons) the victim either

Je ne suis pas Charlie

Jihadists are vile thugs, likewise those who use mental abuse as an ongoing tool for their own ends are not all that far away in nature.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 10 January 2015 1:45:34 PM
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The real problem is Multiculturalism. We were a much more cohesive, trusting and happy society before we decided to let all the immigrants that simple can't build their own successful societies into ours. It is not our responsibility to solve the worlds problems. immigrants should GO HOME. Everyday I see more and more crime caused by immigrants, from drug shipments to extremey violent crime. The Swedish Crime institute recently demonstrated that many immigrant groups had rates of violent crime more than 4 times that of Swedes themselves. Australia is too PC to publish such figures, however is it known that many Asian groups are much more involved in drug crime.
I never see immigrants contributing to society except where it benefits their own group. Migrants simply aim to bludge off white Australians, or simply make as much money as possible and drive around in their Mercedes. My vote is to deport immigrants ASAP.
Posted by ozzie, Saturday, 10 January 2015 1:48:51 PM
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@Steelie,

<<To say I am heavenly is going a little too far>>
Nevertheless, Steelie, if you are in the general vicinity of heaven as your response seems to indicate. Tell us, any sitings of those 72 virgins yet?

I mean, there could not be too many more deserving souls than you after your services --above and beyond the call of duty --to Hamas and Hezbollah and a hell of a lot of other halal causes!

Seriously, mate. keep in touch and let us know how you go …if those virgins be good lookers I may consider converting, myself, and plagiarizing some of your old posts to gain merit

Cheers
Posted by SPQR, Saturday, 10 January 2015 1:58:36 PM
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I must say I find Charlie Hebdo work disgusting, ugly and unhelpful. In saying that he has shown far more courage and consistency than most progressives who have for years demonstrated total hyprocrsisy in trashing Christ, His teachings and followers. Very sad and ironic that the ones who have defended the religion of peace for so long and encouraged its immigration into the West have not been spared. Its only the start folks even if the hundreds of cases are 'lone wolves'who have been operating for 1400 years. I dare say it will be to much to ask the Q&A hypocrites to swallow their filthy pride and take the smirks off their faces.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 10 January 2015 2:31:11 PM
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as a side it would be very interesting to find out how much legal aid and welfare these murderers have received from the tax payers of France over the last 10 years. All well spent money. I suppose it lined the pockets of those with law degrees.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 10 January 2015 2:59:12 PM
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Lego,

"Only a few years ago, a Canberra art exhibition displayed a sculpture depicting our Queen and her husband Prince Phillip, sitting naked on a park bench. In addition, an "artist" in Sydney placed an exhibit entitled "Piss Christ" on display, which was a crucifix submersed in a bottle of human urine. There was a public outcry about both of these works of "art", but the ABC luvvie types laughed their heads off and defended the artists right to parody the Royal family, religion, and anybody else they took aim at. But with Islam, a different rule applies."

I question that, and this attitude does not apply to me. The Adelaide Festival of Arts in the 1990's put out as its poster design an image of Mother Mary playing an accordion.

Many people were offended by it - including myself, and as one person put it - in a letter to the Advertiser, it was not about if Mother Mary was playing an accordion, it was the fact she was "used" in principle.

The poster and program front cover was eventually not used, and simply an accordion image. So a lot of re-printing required in that regard.

I assume you'll still accuse me of being elitist, of which I am not - and I have tried very much to break down the elite element of the arts in principle - and by the way I do play "accordion" - and also piano. People can see the poster below at:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d4/48/ca/d448cab5874fe5a1c6afc3d1219b7603.jpg
Posted by NathanJ, Saturday, 10 January 2015 3:17:14 PM
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runner,

"I must say I find Charlie Hebdo work disgusting, ugly and unhelpful. In saying that he has shown far more courage and consistency than most progressives who have for years demonstrated total hyprocrsisy in trashing Christ, His teachings and followers. Very sad and ironic that the ones who have defended the religion of peace for so long and encouraged its immigration into the West have not been spared. Its only the start folks even if the hundreds of cases are 'lone wolves'who have been operating for 1400 years...."

It's not a "he"...it's a satirical magazine.

On the subject of trashing Christianity, what about Dave Allen and Father Ted - both emanating from a country which takes its religion very seriously? Satirizing religion and religion's adherents has a lot of form in the West. Friends of mine tell me of nuns they knew who would laugh themselves silly at the unfolding irreverence of Father Ted.

Point being that in Western tradition we can pick and choose what to put in front of our eyes and next to our ears...we can ignore or not seek out that which we find offensive.

You finish with this:

"....I dare say it will be to much to ask the Q&A hypocrites to swallow their filthy pride and take the smirks off their faces."

You're quite adept at unleashing the odd intemperate post, aren't you, runner.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 10 January 2015 3:19:11 PM
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Poirot,
Yes but the Irish are known for their sense of humour, Muslims aren't, you've just pointed out yet another irreconcilable difference between us and then...or between them and everyone else.
When I was about 17 and in my "goth" phase I used to wear rosary beads around my neck, they were really nice ones too, black glass with silver cross. While walking down Bourke St with a similarly attired girlfriend one afternoon we were accosted by a very drunk, very elderly Irishman who declared "It's a feckin disgrace, a boy wearin' da rosary like dat!".I said something like "It's a free country" and he grimaced and said "Ach! suit yerself" as he staggered away, he didn't hit me or try to behead me or even tell me to take it off.
Lebanese on the other hand..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7hjLWBSc68

Here's another great article, prophetic as it was written about 18 months ago:
THE FAILURE OF THE CULTURAL DEATH CAMPS
http://alternative-right.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-failure-of-cultural-death-camps.html
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 10 January 2015 4:05:41 PM
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The point which I clearly made, NathanJ, and which you completely missed, is that we in the west have a tradition of freedom of speech. That includes criticising and satirising authority figures, religions, and cultures. Freedom of Speech has always been a sacred cow of the liberal Left, but now we see that they are willing to throw the whole principle overboard to protect the greater good of multiculturalism.

It may offend many people to denigrate the Queen or Jesus Christ. "The Life of Brian" was very offensive to Christians, as it insulted their Messiah. But Christians did not react violently to the movie because their religion forbids it. This is completely different to Islam. In Islamic countries, it is illegal under Sharia law or even civil law for 1400 years, to criticise Islam or insult the Prophet. And the sentence for daring to do so is death. So when you bring in large numbers of immigrants from these Islamic countries, and somebody deliberately (or even inadvertenty) insults their Prophet, they are going to kill you for it. This is hardly the multicultural utopia that the liberal humanitarians envisioned.

The problem for the liberal Left, is that they are in a quandary. If they support their tradional sacred cow of Freedom of Speech, they would have to admit that the importation of Muslims into western society was utterly stupid. Because it can now be demonstrated that Muslims can intimidate the west through violence into forcing us to dispense with our most cherished rights and freedoms. Since the trendies know that they are so intelligent, and they are never wrong, they just can't admit that the "racists" were right all along about Muslim immigration.

So, what we see on these pages and the ABC from the trendies, is this incredible attitude that it is wrong to even verbally attack or criticise Islam or the Muslim Prophet, because it upsets Muslims. Insulting everybody and everything else is still OK. The Muslim leaders are probably amazed at how easily the left has abandoned it most sacred of cows and become Islam's prison bitches.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 10 January 2015 4:30:37 PM
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Dear SPQR,

Now mate, much more of that and I will have to get the nurse to wipe the spittle off your chin.

Dear Killarney,

You wrote;

“This is not free speech or satire. It's deliberate provocation and grotesque cultural insult – not brave irreverance.”

I take the point regarding the Charlie Hebdo crew courting disaster, and about their cultural insensitivities. For instance the Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh had, in one of his later films, the words of the Koran running across the naked bodies of prostitutes.

Leaving aside sartire I am not sure either van Gogh or the mob at Charlie Hebdo could be called great active defenders of free speech, but in exercising their own so forthrightly I think they helped keep the notion very much alive.

As to whether their actions were either “deliberate provocation and grotesque cultural insult” or “brave irreverance” - why can't they be both?

Indeed being prepared to die for the cause seems to be a common thread by both sides. Editor Stephane Charbonnier had said; “I am not afraid of retaliations. I don’t have kids. I don’t have a wife, no car, no credit. It may seem pompous, but I’d rather die standing than live on my knees.”. Actually it is not too hard to think a similar statement might have been made by the attackers.

But drawing an offensive cartoon is not the same as shooting a severely wounded, helpless human being. The first has the capacity to offend some, the latter deeply offends the vast majority of us, even characters like Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah “BEIRUT (AP) — The leader of the Lebanese Hezbollah group says Islamic extremists have insulted Islam and the Prophet Muhammad more than those who published satirical cartoons mocking the religion.”

Cont...
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 10 January 2015 5:17:32 PM
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cont...

I am certainly not an absolutist when it comes to free speech, and I understand that for a mainstream paper to have a single columnist being as provocative as Charlie Hebdo thus endangering other staff who didn't sign up for that kind of danger is not really an option. But these guys knew what they were getting themselves into and an armed police guard would have stopped any lingering misconceptions of those who worked there.

Therefore I think we have to be careful assessing the role of a magazine like CH. Can a case be made that they were peddling hatred and racism with their issues? Difficult. Does humour and satire have a role in changing hypocritical behaviour be it the actions of politicians or religious leaders? Most certainly, no one likes being laughed at. Are we able to concede an ultimate benefit to a society from publications like CH? I think so.

These guys did believe in what they were doing and carried on regardless.

I'm sticking with brave.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 10 January 2015 5:18:47 PM
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Dear Constance,

You wrote to davidf;

“And you still don't understand Leonard Cohen's lyrics.”

As a very long time fan of Cohen I am very interested in what you make of his lyrics to The Future.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 10 January 2015 5:23:40 PM
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@Steelie,

<<now mate, much more of that and I will have to get the nurse to wipe the spittle off your chin>>

Now, now Steelie your memory is fading again ...i am only visiting as part of a hospitals cheer group ...now you drink down your medicine like nursie said ...and i will see you next visit :)
Posted by SPQR, Saturday, 10 January 2015 5:28:59 PM
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Here's a relevant point regarding a cartoon published in the SMH at the height of the recent Israeli offensive in Gaza.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/smh-editorial/we-apologise-publishing-cartoon-in-original-form-was-wrong-20140803-zzxab.html

"We apologise: publishing cartoon in original form was wrong"

"Today, the Herald wishes to apologise for this distress, draw a line under the debate about the cartoon, and return focus back to the events in Israel and Gaza."

This is the cartoon:

http://davidduke.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/jew-cartoon580.jpg

These are the images that inspired it:

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/07/14/world/middleeast/14open_sderot1/14open_sderot1-master1050.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lQfF_P7M76U/U-JVb8UCL9I/AAAAAAAABvk/BCRrLv4ZZ5c/s1600/Kippah-wearing+Israeli-watches-Gaza-bomb-.jpg

There is no clear line drawn over what is and isn't acceptable, and much depends on the prevailing enmities and alliances of the targeted audience.

Cartoons are so powerful because they sum up so succinctly what would take entire articles to articulate in words.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 10 January 2015 7:16:27 PM
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OK, now you have all had your go at each other, covering all angles.

Now what are we going to do about them ?
They are here, they are a risk, they will make demands we will refuse.
They have threatened us and made no secret of it.

So are you all just wafflers and weak little pussies ?
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 10 January 2015 7:43:05 PM
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Tell ya what, "Bazz", you show us how it's done. You'll be right on your own, I reckon, a big tough anonymous internet troll like you...

"You have a natural tendency
To squeeze off a shot
You're good fun at parties
You wear the right masks
You're old but you still
Like a laugh in the locker room
You can't abide change
You're at home on the range
You opened your suitcase
Behind the old workings
To show off the magnum
You deafened the canyon
A comfort a friend
Only upstaged in the end
By the Uzi machine gun
Does the recoil remind you
Remind you of sex
Old man what the hell you gonna kill next
Old timer who you gonna kill next
I looked over Jordan and what did I see
Saw a U.S. Marine in a pile of debris
I swam in your pools
And lay under your palm trees
I looked in the eyes of the Indian
Who lay on the Federal Building steps
And through the range finder over the hill
I saw the front line boys popping their pills
Sick of the mess they find
On their desert stage
And the bravery of being out of range
Yeah the question is vexed
Old man what the hell you gonna kill next
Old timer who you gonna kill next
Hey bartender over here
Two more shots
And two more beers
Sir turn up the TV sound
The war has started on the ground
Just love those laser guided bombs
They're really great
For righting wrongs
You hit the target
And win the game
From bars 3,000 miles away
3,000 miles away
We play the game
With the bravery of being out of range
We zap and maim
With the bravery of being out of range
We strafe the train
With the bravery of being out of range
We gain terrain
With the bravery of being out of range
With the bravery of being out of range
We play the game
With the bravery of being out of range "
Posted by Craig Minns, Saturday, 10 January 2015 7:54:15 PM
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How about the Government proclaims Islam to be a prohibited organization and bans the Koran and insists that all Muslims join a Western accepted religion/become atheists or be deported.

That should fix things.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 January 2015 8:17:04 PM
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'You're quite adept at unleashing the odd intemperate post, aren't you, runner. '

Quite right Poirot especially when I see innocent people being murdered largely due to the stupidity of academics and journalist whose pig headed denial have contributed albeit indirectly. The Immigration officials who gave the Sydney terrorist citizenship should be held accountable. The abc/sbs who continue to give Islamist air time are also responsible. They are sickening.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 10 January 2015 10:17:20 PM
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Is Mise, in the UK there has been discussion on banning the Koran
because it advocates racial oppression and violence and murder.

Organisations that insist that those parts must be obeyed are committing an offense.
The legal opinions sounded reasonable to me a non lawyer.
Now before the apologists start screaming that the bible has similar
chapters. However there is no organisation advocating those policies.

In any case that could be a different case. One at a time.
With murders currently taking place some urgency seems valid.

Anyway, I have acted in a first small step which I hope will in time
start to wind back this Islamic problem. It will mean many more than
just myself and a few others to be effective.

Why don't you just take the actions that best suit yourself.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 10 January 2015 10:40:07 PM
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Hey Craig, I like songs with lyrics too, this goes out to the New Left, wherever they are drowning their sorrows tonight...1968 probably:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up3hmLCr830

Now some of us are weak and some endure
Some people live their life, with a violence that's pure and clean
But I saw a man cry once, down on his knees
In the corner of a darkened cell, and his pain meant nothing to me

But I was younger then young men never die
When I walked out in the sun, I was strong, clear-minded and blind

Now don't say a prayer for anyone, it doesn't do any good
Please don't ask me questions, it'd just be misunderstood
And if you could step inside me you'd feel what hatred brings
And if you saw with my eyes, you'd see what self-deception means

I was younger once, and I created a lie
And though my body was strong, I was self-deluded, confident, and blind

Now show some pity, for the weak of will
Because when we're drinking, we can never be filled
Show some understanding for a lonely fool
Because when I'm drinking, I am out of control
Well I was never young, nothing has transpired
And when I look in the mirror, I feel dead, I feel cold, I am blind

I am blind
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I am blind
I am blind
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 10 January 2015 10:54:54 PM
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SteeleRedux

‘As to whether their actions were either “deliberate provocation and grotesque cultural insult” or “brave irreverance” - why can't they be both?’

I suppose they can be both, but it depends on the power context. Given the West’s history of violently destabilising Muslim countries and creating millions of Muslim refugees and migrants (not to mention terrorist blowback) worldwide, to sexually degrade the principal deity revered by most of those refugees and migrants, and in a country where white, male Christians hold most of the privilege, is both unfair and ignorant.

True satire – ironically, a supposedly French invention – is about those with LESS power taking humorous aim at those with MORE power. It’s genuine satire for citizens to mock their leaders. However, it’s NOT genuine satire for leaders to mock their citizens. It’s genuine satire for minorities to mock majorities, but it’s not genuine satire for majorities to mock minorities.

When the satirical power balance is inverted – i.e. when those with MORE power take satirical aim at those with LESS power, it is no longer satire; rather, it becomes bullying. That’s not to say that groups who hold privilege should never, ever mock groups that hold less privilege, but if they do so, it should be done fairly, with some understanding of the power issues involved.

So, on this basis … no, I DON’T think the Hebdo cartoonists were being brave. They were just being foolhardy.
Posted by Killarney, Saturday, 10 January 2015 11:45:49 PM
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Arjay, halduell et al,

The thick plottens ...

Police Chief Helric Fredou, the man apparently in charge of the investigation into the Charlie Hebdo massacre, has been found dead in his office - apparently from a self-inflicted gunshot wound from his own gun.

At the time of writing, this news is now about 18 hours old. Yet not a single mainstream media outlet has reported it - at least that I can find. However, it's being well covered by fringe alternative 'conspiracy' sites. (So, I can't account for its authenticity as a news item or what could be behind it.)

I would assume that a man in charge of one of the most significant police investigations in recent French history would be set for a huge career boost - so why top himself?
Posted by Killarney, Sunday, 11 January 2015 12:03:03 AM
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To Killarney.

Faced with the reality of Muslim terrorism, your reflexive response is to blame the victims. It is all the West's fault for "destabilising" Muslim countries. For 1400 years, the Muslim world has been doing it's utmost to destroy our civilisation, and you blame the victims of Islam's imperial aggression for fighting back and winning. The Muslim world has always been extremely violent, aggressive and dysfunctional, and it still is. And the reason for that is because their religion is violent, aggressive and dysfunctional.

Your premise, that it is wrong for western cartoonists to mock Mahomet, can be compared to efforts by Nazi Germany to prevent British cartoonists prior to WW2 from mocking Hitler. The "principle deity" of Christianity is Jesus Christ, and He has been fair game for the left since the French Revolution. Your premise that "true" satire involves the "weak" mocking the "strong" is a premise more worthy of hilarity than serious consideration. Since when have the "weak" been the only legitimate creators of art?

Nazis in Britain prior to WW2 were a "minority" but the British press routinely insulted them by printing cartoon comments depicting Nazis and Adolph Hitler as goose stepping buffoons. Using your own reasoning, that minorities must always be protected from "bullying" by the majority, do you think that the British cartoonists should have displayed more cultural sensitivity to the minority of British Nazis? Answer the damned question.

I salute the courage of the Charlie Hedbo cartoonists in showing that Islam was not immune to criticism or satire. But they were all lefties committed to the idea that the Islamazation of Europe should not be prevented, because to exclude any particular group of people from immigrating to Europe was racism. The cartoonists could not see over their racism blinkers, and they refused to consider the fact that Muslims were the enemies of everything they believed in. They were traitors to the western world, and their murders by the very people who's presence in their society they heartily approved of, was poetic justice.
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 11 January 2015 5:33:14 AM
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Jay, nice piece, but I'm a little puzzled by why you limited its applicability to the 'new left', the sentiments expressed are broadly applicable. I now feel a little ashamed of myself after reading your and Killarney's comments. I wonder if others feel the same way about some of their commentary?

I asked earlier in another thread

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6688#202467

if someone could clear up the usage of 'Left' and 'Right' for me, but got no takers, despite the terms being used frequently. Now here you've used 'Left' with a modifier which leaves me less clear than ever about your meaning. Would you mind casting some light on it for me?
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 11 January 2015 6:24:27 AM
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Of the billions of people on the planet those that murder in the name of religion only number in the thousands so its really not beyond us to quickly rid the world of these nutbags if we have the will.
Posted by Crowie, Sunday, 11 January 2015 7:44:52 AM
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See what MSM has censored. Cop lies on the pavement apparently wounded. No blood visible. Gunman comes in to finish him off with an assault rife AK47.Fires at point blank range and misses. MSM reports death of cop due to head wound. There is no mark on the pavement where the bullet hits. No gun recoil evident,no head wound and no blood on the pavement again. Gunmen flee leaving behind ID. http://stormcloudsgathering.com/charlie-hebdo-shootings-censored-video

Smells like another false flag event to me.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 11 January 2015 8:01:19 AM
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Craig,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left
The Liberals and Conservatives are just as much to blame but the Left won the "culture wars" and it's their narrative which is framing the response to Islam and Third World immigration.
See terrorism is the tip of the iceberg, how many Europeans are robbed, bashed, raped or murdered every week by Muslims and other immigrants?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a56EqUPwyFQ
Scenes like this are a daily occurrence in European cities, Muslim mobs attacking Jews and native Europeans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds9D86mFypE
From last year, again, this happens every single day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVarDMOXJ-s
Danish woman Sara Illum Lund-Jensen beaten and stoned by Somalis because they didn't like her dog:
http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/05/28/muslims-denmark-stone-danish-woman-dog/
Gang members work for Imams as enforcers, much like organised crime everywhere:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2uKD7ol0hk
Sweden, for god's sake what have Swedes ever done to deserve this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thXCb1VUBDg
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 11 January 2015 9:04:26 AM
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I can predict Arjay's next post.

Bricks found in coffins of terrorists.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 11 January 2015 10:02:06 AM
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Arjay,
The MSM lie about everything all of the time, I agree, the uncensored video doesn't seem show a murder, it appears to show a Policeman collapsed in a state of panic begging for his life and a shot fired which misses him, but all that means is that the media is telling yet another lie, it doesn't mean that the event was staged.
Like many Police worldwide the officer may have been wearing a lightweight kevlar "stab vest" underneath his jacket, it won't stop a bullet but it would probably keep blood from leaking out of a wound for the few seconds he's in the frame.
Small caliber-high velocity rounds also "tumble" when they hit flesh and bone, the officer could easily have been paralysed and dying of internal bleeding as the bullets ricocheted around inside his body.
So yes, on the face of it the media have lied about this supposed "execution" by a head shot but, big deal, in terms of the other lies they tell it's small beer.
And bear in mind I'm not sympathetic to either Muslims,Neo-Cons,Leftists or Liberals, in terms of strategic importance Charlie Hebdo and the Hyper Cacher deli were "good" targets, by "good" I mean legitimate targets for Muslim activists.
I can only repeat, the victims didn't deserve to die but they got what was coming to them, Jews and Leftists were the obvious choices for a high impact "spectacular" display.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 11 January 2015 10:03:26 AM
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Killarney,

Would you put Salman Rushdie in the category of unnecessarily provocative - and deserving of the fatwa?

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/01/slavoj-i-ek-charlie-hebdo-massacre-are-worst-really-full-passionate-intensity

Slavoj Žižek on the Charlie Hebdo massacre: Are the worst really full of passionate intensity?

" Now, when we are all in a state of shock after the killing spree in the Charlie Hebdo offices, it is the right moment to gather the courage to think. We should, of course, unambiguously condemn the killings as an attack on the very substance our freedoms, and condemn them without any hidden caveats (in the style of "Charlie Hebdo was nonetheless provoking and humiliating the Muslims too much"). But such pathos of universal solidarity is not enough – we should think further.

Such thinking has nothing whatsoever to do with the cheap relativisation of the crime (the mantra of "who are we in the West, perpetrators of terrible massacres in the Third World, to condemn such acts"). It has even less to do with the pathological fear of many Western liberal Leftists to be guilty of Islamophobia. For these false Leftists, any critique of Islam is denounced as an expression of Western Islamophobia; Salman Rushdie was denounced for unnecessarily provoking Muslims and thus (partially, at least) responsible for the fatwa condemning him to death, etc. The result of such stance is what one can expect in such cases: the more the Western liberal Leftists probe into their guilt, the more they are accused by Muslim fundamentalists of being hypocrites who try to conceal their hatred of Islam. This constellation perfectly reproduces the paradox of the superego: the more you obey what the Other demands of you, the guiltier you are. It is as if the more you tolerate Islam, the stronger its pressure on you will be . . ."

Intrigued:

"Police Chief Helric Fredou, the man apparently in charge of the investigation into the Charlie Hebdo massacre, has been found dead in his office - apparently from a self-inflicted gunshot wound from his own gun."

You can't locate it on MSM - but "it's being well covered by fringe alternative 'conspiracy' sites."

Hmmmm...
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 11 January 2015 10:21:39 AM
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Try this link, Poirot...

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/limousin/2015/01/08/limoges-suicide-d-un-commissaire-de-police-626916.html
Posted by WmTrevor, Sunday, 11 January 2015 10:50:16 AM
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Dear Poirot,

There are a couple of French sites that are running the story, which doesn't mean it has been confirmed but the prime airplay in the English speaking world seems to be from the websites conspiracy nutters who want to imagine all sorts of machinations.

This piece is probably closest to the real situation;

We learned this morning, a Commissioner SRPJ Limoges has committed suicide last night in his office with his service weapon . Information confirmed by his superiors. It is unknown at this time the reasons for his actions. He would have killed himself that night to 1 hour. The Commissioner Helric Fredou  aged 45 years was from Limoges began his career in 1997 as a police officer at the regional office the judicial police of Versailles, before returning to Limoges. He was deputy director of the regional police service since 2012. His father was a former police officer, his mother was a nurse in the emergency context CHU Limoges. He was single and had no children. According to the police union commissioner was depressed and experiencing burnout . In November 2013, the Commissioner Fredou had discovered the lifeless body of his colleague, number 3 of SRPJ Limoges, who had also committed suicide with his service weapon in his office. He was also 44 years old. The Commissioner Fredou, like all agents SRPJ worked yesterday on the case of the massacre at the headquarters of Charlie Hebdo . In particular, he surveyed the family of one of the victims. He killed himself before completing its report.  A psychological cell was set up in the police station. 
http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/limousin/2015/01/08/limoges-suicide-d-un-commissaire-de-police-626916.html
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 11 January 2015 10:51:33 AM
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Hi Jay, thanks for the link. The term seems to be a portmanteau for a fairly loose collection of ideas that have little in common, which is always a bit of a red flag for me, since it usually obscures more than it reveals.

I suspect that you would agree with some of the things described on that WP page and I know I would (although by no means all), but that is lost in the use of the broad label.

I didn't watch the YouTube links, I'm sorry, but I think I got the gist from your descriptions. Do you think there might be something more fundamental than religion driving the unrest they show?
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 11 January 2015 11:17:16 AM
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Jay of Melbourne "The MSM lie about everything all of the time, I agree, the uncensored video doesn't seem show a murder, it appears to show a Policeman collapsed in a state of panic begging for his life and a shot fired which misses him, but all that means is that the media is telling yet another lie, it doesn't mean that the event was staged."

Jay I think is was staged because there was no bullet imprint on the pavement where smoke left the barrel of the gun. Secondly there was no gun recoil and AK47 has enormous amo. The bullets had to be blanks. Trained assassins do not miss at point blank range.Why would hooded terrorists who have precision military training leave their ID in their vehicle?
Why did the police chief in charge commit suicide ?
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 11 January 2015 11:21:58 AM
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Thanks for the links, WmTrevor and SteeleRedux...looks to me that the Charlie Hebdo event tipped this policeman over the edge psychologically.

But really I am interested in the late 20th/early 21st century intersection between Islam and the West.

I'm reminded of the notion of the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object.

Away from the West - an event simultaneously unfolded (although, as expected, reaps far less a mention for it's geographical location)

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/01/boko-haram-kills-too-many-to-count-in-nigeria/384395/

"Boko Haram Kills 'Too Many to Count' in Nigeria"

What can we make of the likes of Boko Haram and IS...except that by confecting a particularly ideology and grafting the worst of it onto their religion, these "men" justify themselves regressing to savages to satisfy some innate will to bloody slaughter.

Speechless....
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 11 January 2015 12:27:13 PM
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Aidan An excellent exposition of what I have been talking about. Far better expressed than I can do

http://bonnerandpartners.com/important-story-finance-gold-standard/
Posted by Dickybird, Sunday, 11 January 2015 12:52:06 PM
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Interesting Dicky.
I suspect they went off the gold standard because they saw peak gold
looming over the horizon.
If the amount of gold that could be produced became limited or very
expensive to mine, the price would rise giving a free ride to those
holding the most gold, at the expense of those holding the least.
The value of the gold was unable to keep up with the increasing GDP.

To fix the value of money to something that has no relationship to
anything but the cost of mining gold seems odd.
They may also have been worrying like the Germans are at present about
their stockpile in Fort Knox in the US. Is it really there or has the
US sold it to someone else. The US refused German auditors access.
Hmmm.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 11 January 2015 2:34:45 PM
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Arjay,

"Jay I think is was staged because there was no bullet imprint on the pavement where smoke left the barrel of the gun. Secondly there was no gun recoil and AK47 has enormous amo. The bullets had to be blanks."

The video is not clear enough to tell if a bullet hit the pavement or not and not everyone shot in the head bleeds copiously especially if low power ammo is being used and as I explained the gunmen could have been using reduced loads to minimize danger to themselves when firing inside buildings.

The AK47 DOES NOT have 'enormous ammo', the round is the medium powered 7.62 x 39 mm round which is on the puny side of 'medium'.

If it was all a grand conspiracy how did the Government convince the two brothers to play their part?
Their mate at the kosher store must have been in it also if the Government convinced him to murder four people then get himself shot dead.

As conspiracy theories go this one is a non-starter.

Some common military rounds in 7.62 (give or take a fraction of a millimetre)
.30/06 US....2,910 feet/second muzzle velocity..2,820 ft/lbs energy.
7.62 mm NATO.2,733 f/sec and 2,437 ft/lbs
.303 British.2,500 f/sec and 2,408 ft/lbs

The US and British rounds are over 100 years old.

7.62 x 39mm..2,396 f/sec and 1,555 ft/lbs has 1,265 ft/lbs less energy than the 30/06 and 863 less than the venerable .303.
Its factor of "enormty" is low.

By comparison another centenarian, the .375 Holland and Holland has a muzzle velocity of 3,195 ft/sec and a muzzle energy of 4,534 ft/lbs.

The heaviest sniping round is the .50 BMG with 3,044 f/sec and 13,310 ft/lbs [14,895 in the heaviest loading].
The .50 BMG is enormous. (both ends, I haven't fired one and I have no desire so to do).
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 11 January 2015 4:01:15 PM
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Lego - A construction toy, consisting of interlocking plastic building blocks - so why do:

"We" in the west have a tradition of freedom of speech, that includes criticising and satirising authority figures, religions, and cultures - and the liberal Left, are willing to throw out the whole principle (of freedom of speech) to protect the greater good of multiculturalism.

I don't even know what culture you are, or any cultural beliefs you have. You could be from the plastic, but magnificent world of Legoland or you could be a grand, lead star in the Lego movie of 2014.

"Christians did not react violently to the movie (you referred to) because their religion forbids it." I would argue you did not see the violence (or all, or any of the violence). After all, we can't see every element of a person's, families or communities life.

One only has to look at violence and inappropriate behavior and YES it has occurred within many mainstream religions, families, religious cults, and communities (over many periods) - including Christianity and many other religions. People need to face up to this fact, that many elements of our society have had violence in them - religion or not.

Just because a few horrid extremists undertake activities - certain groups of people should not be held to blame for these people's actions. If we took that logic I could blame all Anglo Saxon people for the extremist actions of Martin Bryant. Why not? Simply, there is no religious book to quote from - and to read an individual persons "mind" is difficult, because unless you are a physic or clairvoyant - people won't be getting very far in 'predicting' the future.
Posted by NathanJ, Sunday, 11 January 2015 4:57:36 PM
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Hi Nathan,

So, Martin Bryant was acting in the name of Anglo-Saxonism, or Christianity ? I didn't know that ! You learn something every day. Well, some of us do.

You suggest,

""Christians did not react violently to the movie (you referred to) because their religion forbids it." I would argue you did not see the violence (or all, or any of the violence). After all, we can't see every element of a person's, families or communities life."

I think you are asserting something here: and if you assert, then you must demonstrate: 'asseritur gratis, negatur gratis'. Do you have evidence of this ? If not, you can be ignored.

"a few horrid extremists" ? Terrorists, actually. Tens of thousands of outrages since the early nineties ? Perhaps you're right - compared to the number of grains of sand on a beach, that's not too many :) And it probably works out to barely a few million people. Terrorists in particular, and fascists generally, are just people like us, aren't they ? Hitler loved his dogs. Let's give them a break !

And you're right - how do we know what's in people's 'minds' ? So misunderstood !

Keep digging into that wheelie-bin of excuses, you're nearly scraping the bottom :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 11 January 2015 5:15:43 PM
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Yeah Joe i am with you,

NathanJs post was a pretty poor effort. Only blind Joe or a blind lefty apologist could possibly believe that acts of violence committed by believers in the religion of peace were on a par with acts of violence by other groups.
Posted by SPQR, Sunday, 11 January 2015 5:46:09 PM
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Hi SPQR,

But it's interesting that, for comparisons to Islamist terrorists, Nathan has to go to the depths of Martin Bryant.

As an ex-Maoist myself (well, up to thirty years ago), I can vaguely understand the somersaults that some on the Left have to go to, to somehow assert that Islamist terrorists are really nowhere near as bad as Americans. The US is the all-evil.

But the religion demands unquestioning allegiance to the theory - if something is going wrong, (and we can go back to the 1848 'revolutions' and the 1871 Paris Commune for 'things going wrong'), then there's something wrong with reality. Reality is therefore evil. Hence Arjay.

Been there, done that :(

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 11 January 2015 6:00:05 PM
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Loudmouth,

What was done by Martin Bryant (and I'm assume you are denying his actions?) - I was not linking him to Christianity, simply his background - and many in Australia are Anglo Saxon, but they don't kill others.

"I think you are asserting something here: and if you assert, then you must demonstrate: 'asseritur gratis, negatur gratis'. Do you have evidence of this? If not, you can be ignored." It's not about asserting, its questioning. Too many people have beliefs (including myself), that are not necessarily based on fact - and that is why is a belief, is just that, a belief - and can have no basis to it.

Unfortunately, there was no "book" about Martin Bryant, so to know what he may or may not have done - was impossible to assess, make generalising comments about and there was no book to quote from - but there are plenty of religious books to read out there.

So religion is very easily targeted (this includes Christianity) and everyone else out there is "wonderful" and "innocent" aren't they?

In terms of terrorism and other violence, it's been operating for a long time - outside of the western world - but gets more media coverage when a western world city is targeted. On this basis, to single out one religion - Muslim or not - is plainly stupid, in the context that there will be inadequate assessment of other violent or terrorist activity in society that can affect people (and lead to more terrorism and violence) - essentially a flow on effect.

I could kill someone tomorrow - who knows? We needs facts - and I have preferred to hear from experts in the field of terrorism, since the Paris and Sydney incidents - not science fiction writers or children's authors.

P.S In terms of "rubbish", your bin is no doubt filled with it, that's why you feel you have a plethora of information to use. My bin is generally very empty, because I recycle and keep my rubbish to a minimum.
Posted by NathanJ, Sunday, 11 January 2015 6:26:03 PM
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Craig Minns,
Terrorism has never been the main issue for Nationalists like me, I mean seriously, Jihadis are no threat to normal White people,you'd be more likely to be struck by lightning than killed by a terrorist.
Put it this way, the Christian Lebanese are just as violent, racist and inclined toward criminal behaviour as their Muslim counterparts, the issue isn't religion it's the Lebanese diaspora as a whole.
What we have to deal with on a day to day basis are the gangs of Afghans, Somalis, Lebanese and Turks, the drug dealers, the groups who roam the CBD and suburbs twenty strong bashing drunk "White Dogs", molesting girls and crashing parties.
The videos I posted earlier show, however that these hooligans are accessible to radical elements, that they will assemble and fight on behalf of the Imams and "community leaders". So as we saw in Sydney a few years back you have a mob of street thugs confronting the Police just because they love a bit of biffo and the Imams and radicals standing behind them spruiking their Islamist message.
It's no different to eastern European "Ultra" football hooligans who will sometimes do the bidding of political ward heelers or gangsters, their main loyalty is to their gang and their FC but they will riot or cause mayhem at the behest of "community leaders"
So the "Muslim problem" in air quotes is a euphemism for a raft of severe social problems stemming from the basic incompatibility of occidental and oriental mindsets and from a Nationalist point of view these mindsets are biological in origin and racial in their expression.

Poirot,
That New Statesman link was a powerful piece, yeah for sure we know that the Left could confront the racist, violent elements within immigrant communities for the benefit of all, but we all know that they won't, especially in Europe.
This is a short video but the speaker is a level headed guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJipE80_s2I
He's right, nothing will change, Martin place changed nothing in Australia, it's already just another forgotten tragedy.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 11 January 2015 6:30:50 PM
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Nathan,

You brought up Martin Bryant as a sort of comparison to Islamist terrorists. Why I don't know, although it's very telling. If he escaped and got to Syria, I suspect that IS would tell him to piss off -- only thirty five ? What a wuss.

So what if he was Anglo-Saxon ? Did he blast away at those defenseless people, shouting 'Fur Gott und Heimat' or something more archaic.

I don't think he was particularly Christian - perhaps he shot those 35 people shouting 'God is great !' waving a Presbyterian flag or Jehovah's Witness pamphlet. If so, then you would have your evidence. If not, then it might be more sensible or you to keep mum.

As for your attempt to absolve such a vile aspect of religion, (an interesting out for a Leftist), how many people have been killed in just the last few days - in Nigeria, Pakistan, Iraq, Paris, god knows where else - with 'Allahu Akbar !' the last thing they heard ?

Presumably you think you are on the Left. How on earth do your square a reactionary perversion of a frankly backward religion with your political position - if you have only one, that is ?

Are you so politically naïve as to think there is only one way to be anti-American, i.e. from the Left ? Has it occurred to you that the US can be attacked from the extreme Right as well ? No, nobody could be that naïve as to think there is only either/or.

Okay, maybe some people, out at Oodnagalarby maybe, and religious people, of course: Manichaeism is religion's bread and butter.

Can you get the internet out at Oodnagalarby ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 11 January 2015 7:51:46 PM
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Loudmouth,

Is it fair to sterotype based on religion or on an individual because of the actions of another? In my view no. It's judging a book by its cover. It's also for me not about left or right wing. I don't care, I've getting better things to do with my time. In terms of this topic:

On May 31, 2009, a Mr George Tiller, a physician from Wichita, Kansas, one of the few doctors in the United States to perform late-term abortions, was murdered by a Mr Scott Roeder. Mr Tiller was killed during a Sunday morning Lutheran church service, where he was serving as an usher." Mr Roeder however belonged to a group called the "Sovereign Citizen Movement", had an attachment to extreme causes like anti-abortion, anti-government extremism and eventually took on violence and murder.

According to the (US) National Consortium For The Study Of Terrorism And Responses To Terrorism (START) - (University of Maryland), with projects funded by the U.S Government July 30 2014:

"Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities."

"The Sovereign Citizen movement was the most highly ranked threat, with 86 percent of respondents agreeing or strongly agreeing that it was a serious terrorist threat. This is a significant increase in ranking from an earlier survey implemented in 2006-2007, which showed Islamist extremists to be law enforcement’s top concern at the time."

“Identifying and prioritizing a threat is akin to hitting a moving target and evolves as new intelligence, data, and events develop,” according to Mr David Carter (from STARS).

“Law enforcement must be steadfast in identifying major concerns, substantiating the concerns, providing products and resources to better understand the nature of the threat, and supporting efforts to respond to such concerns.”

http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat

So research and hard work is vital. Simplistic quotes from religious books and targeting people of religions who have never done anything legally wrong (like my Grandma, who was Lutheran) and died two years ago will achieve nothing.
Posted by NathanJ, Sunday, 11 January 2015 10:06:13 PM
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Craig,
Recently I put up a thread seeking suggestions as to what we can do to prevent more terrorist incidents in Aus. Did not get many practical suggestions.

My contention is that we stop further muslim entry of immigrants and refugees, thus limiting the risk to those that are already here. Bazz suggested that we bury any terrorist with a pig, which is a low cost proposal and has merit.

The Government and Opposition are both obviously clueless.

I am interested in your suggestion and please be practical and bear in mind that the authorities are most concerned about the muslims born here and are citizens by birth, so cannot be deported.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 11 January 2015 10:06:24 PM
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For goodness sake they prayed like moslems, they spoke like moslems
and they murdered like moslems THEY ARE MOSLEMS !

So why do people pretend that they are not moslems, are they from
the Church of England in Midsummer Sunnyfield ?

No people seem to believe they are moslems, I wonder why ?
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 11 January 2015 10:07:34 PM
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'The Government and Opposition are both obviously clueless.' Yes Bazz about as clueless as they that pretend all belief systems are equal. The moral relativism dogma of secularist is clearly displayed for the stupidity it is and they know it.
Posted by runner, Sunday, 11 January 2015 10:11:35 PM
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Dear runner,

It is usually at this moment that I quote parts of Mien Kampf to you so here they are.

“To-day it is hard and almost impossible for me to say when the word 'Jew' first began to raise any particular thought in my mind. I do not remember even having heard the word at home during my father's lifetime. If this name were mentioned in a derogatory sense I think the old gentleman would just have considered those who used it in this way as being uneducated reactionaries.”

“There were very few Jews in Linz. In the course of centuries the Jews who lived there had become Europeanized in external appearance and were so much like other human beings that I even looked upon them as Germans. The reason why I did not then perceive the absurdity of such an illusion was that the only external mark which I recognized as distinguishing them from us was the practice of their strange religion. As I thought that they were persecuted on account of their Faith my aversion to hearing remarks against them grew almost into a feeling of abhorrence. I did not in the least suspect that there could be such a thing as a systematic anti-Semitism.”

“Then I came to Vienna.”

“In the Jew I still saw only a man who was of a different religion, and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I was against the idea that he should be attacked because he had a different faith. And so I considered that the tone adopted by the anti-Semitic Press in Vienna was unworthy of the cultural traditions of a great people.”

“I now often turned to the VOLKSBLATT, which was much smaller in size but which treated such subjects more decently. I was not in accord with its sharp anti-Semitic tone; but again and again I found that its arguments gave me grounds for serious thought.”

Cont..
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 12 January 2015 12:14:13 AM
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Cont..

“Anyhow, it was as a result of such reading that I came to know the man and the movement which then determined the fate of Vienna. These were Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Socialist Movement. At the time I came to Vienna I felt opposed to both. I looked on the man and the movement as 'reactionary'.”

“But even an elementary sense of justice enforced me to change my opinion when I had the opportunity of knowing the man and his work, and slowly that opinion grew into outspoken admiration when I had better grounds for forming a judgment. To-day, as well as then, I hold Dr. Karl Lueger as the most eminent type of German Burgermeister. How many prejudices were thrown over through such a change in my attitude towards the Christian-Socialist Movement!”

“My ideas about anti-Semitism changed also in the course of time, but that was the change which I found most difficult. It cost me a greater internal conflict with myself, and it was only after a struggle between reason and sentiment that victory began to be decided in favour of the former. Two years later sentiment rallied to the side of reasons and became a faithful guardian and counsellor.”

So who was this Dr. Karl Lueger, the man who drove Hitler against his better nature to strident and tragic anti-Semitism? He was a founding member of the Austrian Christian Democrats and “a zealous Catholic, and wished to “capture the university” for the Church. He would have neither Social Democrats nor Pan-Germans nor Jews in the municipal administration.”

Or more simply, he was a Christian.

I am comfortable with this sentiment of Christopher Hitchens;

“If you’re writing about the history of the 1930s and the rise of totalitarianism, you can take out the word ‘fascist’, if you want, for Italy, Portugal, Spain, Czechoslovakia and Austria and replace it with ‘extreme-right Catholic party’.”

So my dear runner we need to guard against all hate mongers be they Jewish, Islamic or Christian. You are one of them.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 12 January 2015 12:15:18 AM
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Jay and Joe

Yes, guys.

We know that you are compelled to keep writing post after post after post about how Islam is an inherently violent and dangerous religion and that stupid leftists keep stupidly apologising for Islam’s violence and dangerousness (by stupidly harping on about the West's totally irrelevant habit of bombing and regime-changing so many Muslim countries) and keep stupidly wanting to bring lots and lots and lots of violent and dangerous Muslim migrants into Western countries, so that they can keep violently and dangerously murdering us all to appease their inherently violent and dangerous Islamic lusts.

Yeah … we get it. Now could you possibly talk about something else for a change? What are your thoughts on quilting?

bazz

'I hope [we] will in time
start to wind back this Islamic problem'

That's what the British kept saying for centuries about 'the Irish problem'. They tried absolutely everything – starving them, hanging them, shooting them, banning their language, criminalising their religion, evicting them, transporting them. But nothing worked.

The poor Brits just didn’t understand that the ‘Irish problem’ was … duh! … the British!! Once the Brits finally got the message and got the hell out of Ireland (well, four-fifths of it) – presto … the Irish problem went away (well, four-fifths of it).

What a shame the West is still a long, loooong way from waking up to the same problem. Stay out of Muslim countries (especially stop bombing and regime-changing them) and they'll stay out of ours.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 12 January 2015 12:22:25 AM
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Poirot

'Would you put Salman Rushdie in the category of unnecessarily provocative - and deserving of the fatwa?

Ah, come on, Poirot. You know my posting history better than that. Of course I don't. It's more Jay's distorted interpretation of my previous posts that makes it sound like I was saying the Hebdo cartoonists 'got what was coming to them'.

I was talking about the appropriateness of canonising the Hebdo cartoonists as martyrs for freedom of speech - a stance which, courtesy of the Western MSM propaganda machine, has gone completely viral.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 12 January 2015 12:32:24 AM
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Yes, Killarney...that probably was a bit bellow the belt from me - I was trying a bit too hard to make my point.

And it is difficult to get a fix on things.

I'm presently watching the march of solidarity taking place right now in Paris. World leaders lined up to march with the greater populace - and there standing splat in the middle next to Hollande and Merkel is Benjamin Netanyahu...whose forces recently spent many days ruthlessly targeting and then slaughtering defenceless men, women and children - bombing hospitals, schools and designated UN compounds to do so...2,000 deaths and around 10,000 injured.

And yet there he is marching against atrocities!

Crazy world...
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 12 January 2015 12:58:04 AM
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To NathanJ

If the whole of North Africa was populated by blue eyed, blond haired Nazis, who were immigrating to Europe in very large numbers, and if those Nazis killed anybody within their own Nazi nations who criticised Nazism or der Fuhrer, and if almost every act of terrorism in the world was linked to Nazis, and if the Charlie Hedbo massacre had been carried out by blond haired, blue eyed Nazis screaming "Adolph Hitler is great!", I doubt if you would have any trouble linking Nazism to terrorism.

The leftist cognitive dissonance, is that they have no problem stereotyping Nazis, Ku Klux Klansmen, Bogans, Rednecks, or One Nation supporters, but any negative stereotype of their favourite, pet minorities has them frothing at the mouth in self righteous indignation.

The entire philosophy of the humanitarian left is that human beings are all equally good or bad. (unless they are Nazis or Ku Klux Klansmen) Therefore, it does not matter what race or religion you are, everybody just wants to live in peace with their neighbours. So, it does not matter who immigrates into western society, because everybody wants peace except a few criminal hotheads.

Then along comes Islam which proves that you are wrong. How you as a person who considers himself a liberal, can defend a religion which openly advocates the murder of apostates and homosexuals, that women are minors inferior to men, that ecclesiastical law overrides secular law, or that raped women should be punished, is beyond me. And when Muslims in Europe do exactly what their religion instructs and mass murders Europeans who criticise or satirise their religion, you deny reality and claim that this has nothing to do with Muslims.

Islam is the most dangerous and aggressive social ideology in the world today, and you defend Muslims. If the majority of Muslims are "moderate", why is almost every Muslim country violent and dysfunctional? And the more Islamic a state is, the more violent and dysfunctional it is.
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 12 January 2015 3:33:00 AM
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@ Cant-stop-the-boats-Killarney,


You say: <<What a shame the West is still a long, loooong way from waking up to the same problem. Stay out of Muslim countries (especially stop bombing and regime-changing them) and they'll stay out of ours.>>

Wow soooooo if the West had no involvement -- all the non-Muslim minorites would co-exist in blissfull harmony with their Muslim majority overlords ...that deserves a double DUH!
Posted by SPQR, Monday, 12 January 2015 8:30:41 AM
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@ Killarney -more

And does <<and they'll stay out of ours.>> involve (them) NOT sending us hundred of thousands of economic refugee --who turn out to be Islamist sympathizers!
Posted by SPQR, Monday, 12 January 2015 8:36:14 AM
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Hi SPQR,

Clearly there is no such thing as a principled Left any more.

Killarney, as I understand her, would have sucked up to Saddam (and Gaddafi, Mugabe and Assad as well ?) and every other anti-US dictator across the Middle East, but now that there is a democratic government in Iraq which happens to be pro-US, she is trying to find some way to suck up to Islamists, i.e. the 'Anybody-But-Americans'. A bunch of total opportunists: like that old Italian bloke in Catch 22. Sluts for Islamism.

Opportunism: look it up, Killarney.

This long war will see the extinction of any Western Left. I feel like I've lost close relatives :(

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 12 January 2015 9:54:48 AM
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Loudmouth,

"Killarney, as I understand her, would have sucked up to Saddam (and Gaddafi, Mugabe and Assad as well ?).."

Lol! - you mean like the US "whenever it suited them"?

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

"Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein:
The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82"

Same with Gaddafi - and Mugabe appears to be allowed to do as he pleases because Zimbabwe is apparently not worth the bother of intervention.

Let's not deny that the US totally misread the proposition in Iraq - those of us who cited a huge vacuum followed by a continuing debacle in the wake of the 2003 invasion have been proven correct.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 12 January 2015 10:29:19 AM
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Lego,

The "Sovereign Citizen Movement", had an attachment to extreme causes like anti-abortion, anti-government extremism and (the person I referred to) eventually took on violence and murder.

The (US) National Consortium For The Study Of Terrorism And Responses To Terrorism (START) - (University of Maryland), with projects funded by the U.S Government July 30 2014:

"Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities." So why would I put that down, because I agree with these listed extremist groups? Get serious - and the information was not something I made up, it came from the University.

There are a range of extremist groups in society (and to simplistically connect Islam - to other extremist groups - is simplistic = no thought required).

I'm assuming you know don't the name of the other group that has been mentioned (by our Prime Minister) - and no it is not called Islam. We can't afford to fail to recognise that other extremist groups exist or will potentially develop and (yet again) = no thought required. So I could argue you are defending other extremist groups that are undertaking activities now, or do not exist at present if you only target one group. I don't want extremist groups.

The (US) page link: http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat says:

"Assessments about whether most groups were a serious terrorist threat actually declined (e.g., the KKK; Christian Identity; Neo-Nazis; Racist Skinheads; Environmental Extremists; Animal Rights Extremists) when compared to a previous study have declined". Regardless, I don't like these groups behaviors.

Finally your comment that "That human beings are all equally good or bad. (re left)" is utter nonsense. My parents have friends (who were Anglo-Saxon and shot by government militiamen in Zimbabwe under Robert Magabe. The women affected picked up her intestines off the ground and when at hospital, was told by her doctor, she should be dead - and lucky do be alive.

I will not defend that type of behavior - and I will defend, good quality, well researched and balanced information.
Posted by NathanJ, Monday, 12 January 2015 12:22:39 PM
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NathanJ

Interesting. What is a 'sovereign citizen'? The article doesn't say.

And is the government counted as a terrorist threat, and if not, why not?
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Monday, 12 January 2015 2:18:13 PM
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Hi Banjo, it is a vexed question, isn't it? I think we can do better than turning away from the problem. We have an obligation to keep trying until we succeed. Not only for the sake of the poor buggers who need all the help they can get, but for the sake of our own human dignity.

This is not the first time Australia has been in the path of the products of social upheaval. Back in 1788 about 1000 of them arrived in chains; thieves, rapists, fraudsters under the threat of whips and the rope. That's only 10 or so generations ago and apart from a couple of brief pauses the flow of people has never stopped. For many Australia offered a fresh start, including the convicts, who were given the chance to establish lives as free settlers after having done their time. Some of the arrivals caused disruption and committed violence, but the majority did not.

It seems to me that the main difference in today's world is that it is nearly impossible for people to escape their history, whatever their future intent, because it is constantly rubbed in their face by others who can hide in a coward's castle of anonymity while doing so. People like the brave 'bazz' and that paragon of manly courage 'LEGO', or the snidely insinuative 'Is Mise' once had to limit themselves to boring their long-suffering wives or, like such misfits have always done, drift into some minor group of the feeble-minded and regale each other with anecdotes of their brave exploits:

"One of those ISIS types tried it on today, but I showed her who's in charge. 'Excuse me!' I said, very firmly, 'This counter is for dog licenses. New vehicles are next door.' She had the cheek to try to smile at me, but I looked her straight in the eye and said 'Move along please, there are people waiting to be served.' Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile." <Sage nods all round, with furtive glances at watches; 'She who must be obeyed' won't tolerate lateness>
Posted by Craig Minns, Monday, 12 January 2015 3:02:06 PM
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In today's world the pissant whining of the perennially frustrated is broadcast ad nauseaum and amplified into a "message" by media and political strategists who can't think beyond their own noses.

What is the solution? Do our utmost to show our 'New Australians' the best of what it means to be Australian, which includes being able to put up with the ill-mannered mongrels down the road constantly yapping at shadows without grabbing the .410 and giving them something to yap about.

Trust is something that has to be carefully and mindfully nurtured and it's a two-way process. If we want people to trust us, we have to offer our trust to them, even if we think there may be some who'll betray that trust.

There will always be lunatics, criminals, whining dogs.

But the vast majority of people are sane and most dogs aren't whiny.
Posted by Craig Minns, Monday, 12 January 2015 3:08:52 PM
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Craig Minns,

There is only one way to get rid of the Muslim problem in any society, get rid of the Muslims.

They are never going to fit into Australian society until they change that society to suit themselves and it becomes a Muslim society.

There is a short list of countries where they are not a problem and a long list of where they are.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 12 January 2015 5:01:40 PM
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Well done NathanJ.
You've demonstrated that in 2014 the U.S.A with it's insignificant Muslim population had no problem with Islamic terrorism, in fact it has no problem with terrorism at all if you consider that the Sovereign Citizen movement is completely non violent.
These "studies" are just another politically correct scare campaign, so they surveyed Police officers, big deal, did you know that Jewish extremist and "Anti Racist", anti White groups like the ADL and SPLC train and consult with law enforcement over there?
http://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do/hate-and-extremism/law-enforcement/law-enforcement-training
No you didn't know that,did you? So the officers interviewed would most likely have just been referring to what they'd been told in their diversity training course by their left wing Jewish "facilitator".
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 12 January 2015 5:15:09 PM
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JoM,

Just as an aside, I noted a tweet yesterday which went like this:

"In the 3 days since 12 people were killed in France - more than 260 people died of gunshot wounds in the US.

They have their own particular challenges, it seems.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 12 January 2015 5:25:25 PM
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[Deleted for abuse.]
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 12 January 2015 5:46:48 PM
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Loudmouth,

I've been advised by someone whom I respect not to bite back and to ignore posters on this forum who are disrespectful to me.

Posted by Poirot, Monday, 12 January 2015 5:50:49 PM
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Poirot,
260 seems high even for the U.S over a three day period in winter, according to this site about 65 people died from gunshot injuries in the past three days with a total of 370 for this month so far:
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
We've been down this road a million times, the U.S doesn't have a gun problem, Black people have a gun problem:
Gun deaths shaped by race in America:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/feature/wp/2013/03/22/gun-deaths-shaped-by-race-in-america/
93% of Black homicide victims are killed by other blacks, 55% of all homicide victims in the U.S.A are Black, 14% of White homicide victims are killed by Blacks so they kill Whites at twice the rate that Whites kill them.
If you compare like for like, 90% White communities in Australia and the U.S.A the homicide rate is in the 1.5-2.3 per 100,000 range for both and overall many more people die from suicide in the U.S than from homicide.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 12 January 2015 7:54:47 PM
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Jay of Melbourne,

If you're going to make an attack on anybody on this site, please base it on facts - and your last one (on me) was verging on criminal.

The Sovereign Citizen Movement (in the U.S) - is violent in many ways. The problem is for yourself, I believe is that you don't want to accept all forms of terrorism (left or right) and not accept that terrorism comes from various groups and individuals. Linking other reports to political correctness is simply a "denial" of this point.

Sovereign Citizens believe that he or she is above all laws. It can be difficult to assess each person as some of these people are based in informal groups or as individuals or have links with others. Sovereign Citizens in general involve:

"Non-violent retaliation against government employees and law enforcement is the most common response (by Sovereign Citizens), and can take the form of filing false liens, filing bogus Forms 1099, sending threatening correspondence, suing government employees for millions of dollars, and cyber-stalking individuals in government who disagree with the sovereign’s legal theories."

"Some sovereigns plot (however) a violent revenge, hoping to inspire others in the movement to reach their breaking point sooner (this has happened) - and for example, after twenty years of attempting to persuade the IRS and the Tax Court that his blender salad of legal theories was accurate, in 2010, private pilot Joseph Stack flew his airplane into an IRS building in Austin Texas, killing one tax collector, and injuring thirteen others."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jjmacnab/2012/02/13/what-is-a-sovereign-citizen/

Other such planned events have included bombings, shootings, murders, and armed standoffs. Visit:

http://www.deathandtaxes.com/?p=13 - and yes some of the people pictured (are Sovereign Citizens) or involved in right wing behavior and all photographed virtually look like terrorists.

There is also an image of the building after the damage from the terrorist attack on that site. This image reminded me of the September 11 attacks.

So Jay, you may wish to send a letter of apology to the family who lost a family member - and others injured - in that incident.
Posted by NathanJ, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 9:56:15 AM
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Craig Minns,

"or the snidely insinuative 'Is Mise' ...."

Argumentum ad hominem is the last resort of a vacant mind.

Care to give a reference to your assertion?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 5:28:24 PM
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