Monis the Bastard

Was a special multicultural category all Australians are in love with. We are so tolerant that it sometimes kills us. Happy trusting vegemites.

The Bastard was a walking Advertisement for Islam. Islam is the religion of peace, isn't it?

So let us all be most tolerant until the next Muslim outrage doubles the size of our security agencies and sends more of our soldiers to Iraq to be killed, by Muslims, the religionistas of peace.

Yes, keep crying "Wolf", trying to impress us that "we have saved you from the wolf" - nobody believes you anyway and now nobody will believe if ever a real terrorist attacks.

Government is the problem, not the solution!

I think you miss the point no matter who well versed in his religion he is doesn't have any baring on his ability of motivation to commit this terror act.

I'm sure the gunmen at the school in Pakistan today and the hundreds walking bombs didn't have full marks in their Islamic scholarship.

That fact that large number of Muslims don't go out and commit these acts also has no barring on the perpetrators motivations.

The minute someone believes they can kill based on their religious convictions, they have crossed a line.

Our PM is desperately trying to raise a madman in to a terrorist .for his distraction policy from the mismanagement of government

ben

"The minute someone believes they can kill based on their religious convictions, they have crossed a line."

That is the guts of the problem.
The whole of the Islam faith has crossed the line. The Koran specifically authorises the murder of prisoners of war ( conquered males) who will not convert to Islam. It does not require it but it authorises it.

We are as entitled to distinguish against Islam as we are against Nazis.

Only 15 % of Germans were Nazis but Nazis, with the help of the other 85%, were responsible for the deaths of 50 million people.

'"The minute someone believes they can kill based on their religious convictions, they have crossed a line."'

feminist /secularist crossed that line a long time ago when legalising killing the unborn. Out of sight but just as gruesome as Islamic killers.

runner don't highjack the tread with your insanity. A fetus is not the same as a scared mother of three trying to buy a coffee and you know it.

Why didn't they shoot Monis earlier?

TV cameras caught pictures of Monis face-head looking through the window. There were snipers with rifles in buildings across Martin Place from the Coffee Shop.

Did too many Chiefs (ASIO, AFP, NSW Police) and too many politicians (Prime Minister and Premier) prevent or frustrate a timely kill shot?

Any rationalization that this was the act of a lone madman, and not ISIS terrorism, is missing the point.

Monis was an instrument of ISIS, the very type willing to do the bidding asked of its followers. He was won over to the cause and executed its requirements.

The fact that he was an unhinged individual is academic.

This was not a man on a ledge. I am sad that we had to learn the hard way that ISIS terrorism can't be talked down. Sniping Monis at the first opportunity, however early in the siege, and storming in, was always the only way to resolve matters. Our naivety is exposed by failing to do so, unless there were reasons of which the public is currently unaware.

Oh come on you guys, the psych wards of this country are filled with inmates who have religious paranoia! Even Martin Bryant ranted about his God during and after his massacre.
How many mad murderers claimed they did the murder because their God told them to?

Religion has a lot to answer for and has been the cause of much violence and death in our world for a long time. The religion of Islam is no worse or no better than others as far as violence goes, it is just that they appear to be more active at present.

Mad or bad? This guy from Sydney was apparently both.
What comes first, the religious fervor or the psych problem?
Certainly mixing the two can be very dangerous.

Yes plantagenet, that is the important point to come out of this,

You can't reason with a religious ratbag, particularly one who actually believes 72 virgins are waiting for them in heaven. This bloke expected to & planned to be dead when he walked into that coffee shop. We should have obliged him at the first opportunity.

The softely softely approach with the Muslims is garbage & has resulted in 2 dead. Who ever wanted to negotiate with the clown was following this "don't inflame the Muslims" bull dust our cops are saddled with from above.

Any sensible person in charge would have taken him out, with a head shot, at the first opportunity, & there were many opportunities.

The head must roll of the fool in charge of the operation, if only to reinforce their approach was totally wrong, & must never be repeated. If that deputy commissioner in charge of the operation gets away with this catastrophe, the next time, & there will be a next time, this will be a precedent, a career safe way of doing things. This must not happen.

Notice to TV advertisers. Most people I know watched a few minutes of the garbage of talking idiot heads the stations went overboard with, & turned off. Don't advertise with the fools, you are wasting your money.

Pete, you can't shoot someone through an 11mm toughened glass shopfront, the bullet could deflect and hit a hostage or more likely miss the target and cause him to start killing hostages.

The events in Martin place don't change anything and the response from the media, Twitter idiots and politicians has been disgraceful:
Here's a piece on Tessa Kum, the girl who started the whole counter-backlash travesty:
http://www.unz.com/isteve/the-media-heroine-of-the-australian-counterbacklash-has-some-issues/
Read her blog, if you think Harun The Bastard was unhinged look at the spokeswoman for #illridewithyou.
"I’m learning about hate because I am coming to hate you, white person. You have all the control, all the power, all the privilege, and there is nothing holding you accountable. I hate the double standards and hypocrisy you display, the rank dishonesty of your conduct. I hate that you can harm us, when we cannot harm you. I hate that you have actually impacted on careers, multiple and not even directly, with your hypocrisy. I hate that you’re so dominant in the publishing industry there’s very few venues I’d consider safe to even submit to now. I hate what you have done to PoC I don’t know. I hate what you have done to PoC I do know. I hate what you have done to me, and I was not involved."

@Suseonline, Wednesday, 17 December 2014 10:37:28 AM

As an apologist, of course you would be at pains to spin this evil offender as a 'mental case' to absolve him and Islam from blame. Next you will be reversing the blame completely to make Australian society responsible. Fat chance of that.

Bryant was NOT insane as you imply. He had minimal IQ as many people placed in work through government initiatives often do. He planned and conducted his dreadful crimes.

There are offenders who do evil things. Islam seems to be the springboard for many in modern times.

Garbage Jay, just an excuse for not doing what was necessary.

Even if you were worried about a deflection, it could only kill one hostage not two. A No. 2 shotgun blast would take out the window, without being deadly. Yes someone might get cut by a bit of flying glass, surely preferable to being killed.

It is pretty easy to use a first shot, high velocity or shotgun, to break the glass & a second, a split second later to take out the offender. A couple of prepared marksman could do that before the target had actually tightened their muscles to move, let alone moved.

If you want to play with red herrings, go fishing where you'll find herrings, not here.

Hi Hasbeen

Spot on. It appears that because a:

Militant Muslim Preacher
Is a Protected Creature

Monis was treated with great concern for His safety - from being on bail to him only being shot after he had shot others.
--

Jay of Melbourne

Melbourne may be next.

Considering the nation's resources and media were focussed on Monis' 15 hours of fame more could have been done.

The SAS Eastern Seaboard Counter-Terrorism Team were not called in because our Government underestimated the threat. Note that .50 calibre sniper rifles with various types of ammunition are on hand. Some ammunition would be designed for the circumstances you point to. See "Precision Rifles" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaponry_of_the_Australian_Army#Infantry_weapons

ABBOTT'S ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY

Abbott's standing in the polls has benefitted from every one of the national security crisis this year, real or manufactured. His speeches have been innumerable:

- from the response to IS in Iraq
- MH17 bravado - "shirtfronting Putin"
- the Night of the 800 Police CT raiders (Monis missed?)

Abbott, however is deflecting the blame onto his subordinates. He is the multi-agency chief with ultimate responsibility for all.

ISIS Reluctant to Claim Australian Hostage Taker as Lone Wolf
http://www.vocativ.com/world/australia-world/man-haron-monis-isis-sydney-hostage-captor/

Pete,
The M107 wouldn't have been much use even with RAUFOSS ammunition, it's an indirect fire weapon designed to kill people in enclosed spaces, the shrapnel would have killed anyone standing close to Monis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK2P70K4c94

It doesn't matter what ISIS says or does not say. It has ordered its followers to take independent actions, which Monis followed through.

All the ducking and diving in the world by ISIS, or our own authorities, can not escape this fact.

There are many unanswered questions about Monis. That is only the latest of at least three names under which he was known. He "fled" Iran in 1996 and was granted asylum by the Australian government. He conveniently appeared in a 2001 ABC interview at a time of anti-Iran hysteria. He was introduced by the ABC as an anti-Iranian cleric who had taken up residence in Macquarie St outside of the State Parliament.

He claimed that Australia was "a real religious society" that compared to Iran and other Middle Eastern countries was "heaven".

Over the years since he has shape shifted, coinciding with shifts in pro-war anti-Islam rhetoric. His garb changed along with his name and his alleged opinions. His latest incarnation was as a claimed convert to Sunni Islam, affiliated with al Nusra, which just happens to be an al Qaeda front armed and financed by the Americans among others in the quest for regime change in Syria.

The Australian government was warned about him by Iran several years ago, and in 2008 the Australian Muslim community urged that he be investigated. He was given bail despite facing a serious charge of being an accomplice in his wife's murder, and despite his criminal background. Despite all this he was able to obtain a weapon and freely walk the streets.

It is known that he was known to the Australian security services. One might think that he served a number of useful purposes for them and the government. It would not be the first such example.

Don't expect a serious analysis of the many questions by the corporate media. Their agenda clearly coincides with that of the national security state.

Interesting comments. I too wondered, if the media could get a good head shot of Monis, why couldn't police? It was pointed out that it was uncertain how many hostage takers there were, and that authorities would prefer Monis alive for interrogation. However, the choice of venue for his action did not allow any escape route which did not bode well for the outcome. The real question is that given the history of Monis - cruel letters to families of dead soldiers, his fake sheik persona, sexual assault charges, and the belief he was involved in the murder of his ex-wife, why was this man free and unmonitered in the first place?

Jay Of Melbourne,

There are tables for .308 and glass. It would be assumed that the glass is the toughened and thicker sort for shop windows.

While the Muslim apologists' spin has it that the offender 'must' have been mad and not a 'true' Muslim, he certainly seems to the layperson at least to have known what he was about. Having the hostages up against the glass or near to it would make a shot even more risky. He wore a backpack too and loose clothes, giving the impression he had explosives beneath.

He appeared trained/briefed in other ways too, such as the sly demands (not agreed to) that could have helped to make it into an international incident.

I wonder too if he really operated alone. Maybe he was one of a unit that was spooked and he went for the choc shop. Also, what was the real mission and what tools? It is a stretch to believe that he expected 72 virgins for a coffee shop.

The first task and most useful role of a marksman is observation and intelligence.

The preferred strategy is talk, delay and mount up the knowledge, understand. The win is to get all hostages out alive.

otb,

"I wonder too if he really operated alone. Maybe he was one of a unit that was spooked and he went for the choc shop..."

I think you realise that scenario is highly unlikely...knowing what we know now.

This puts it quite well:

"The Iranian-born Australian who overran a Sydney chocolate shop on Monday was hardly a fearsome terrorist operative.

He was more of a self-aggrandizing creep.

Ostracized by Australia’s Islamic community, Man Haron Monis, dubiously called himself “sheikh.” He mailed crude insults to families of soldiers killed in Afghanistan. The 50-year-old was fond of preying on women and racked up dozens of sexual assault charges.

He also appeared to be a fanboy of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and declared support for the “caliphate” online. It’s a scintillating detail but rather meaningless. No evidence suggests the brutal proto-state in Iraq and Syria knew Monis existed before he held 17 hostage and was then shot dead by police.

On his website, Monis spouted the rhetoric of global jihad. He called for Muslims to fight the “terrorism of America and its allies including Australia.” But the attention seeker was likely exploiting outsized panic over ISIS for attention.

If so, it’s working. His militancy has helped some media outlets transform a narcissistic criminal into a harbinger of global terror...."

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/141216/australian-hostage-taker-was-delusional-phony

Poirot,

None of what you say changes the fact that he seems to have known what he was about.

Why would he choose a chocolate shop to win the 72 virgins?

You seem to be a follower of Faceache and the twits of Twitter. How many followers does he have? Where else has be been? Does he have handlers?

'We' know nothing at all apart from what we are being told. Except that it is a jolly good idea to cast him as a bumbling mental case so as not to encourage copycats, or provide the media circus that might be capitalised upon by terrorists already embedded or from abroad.

I will wait for the coroner's report, while knowing that the police and others will be busy looking behind the image being marketed to the public. I very much hope there are no others.

otb,

"... Except that it is a jolly good idea to cast him as a bumbling mental case so as not to encourage copycats..."

All indications are that he was what he appears to be - a somewhat unstable, opportunistic, self-promoting fake with a dubious history.

Not difficult to analyse.

If I remember correctly President Bush had a love affair with his God, who spoke to him daily on world problems at the time with disastrous results for Iraq.
It is time for all religious nutters including war mongering Presidents and Governments to consider common sense for a change that there is no such thing as a superior being who guides them into killing people, God or Allah is on my side, not yours, so here take this as many bombs drop, or a lone gun kills innocent people along the way.

...and so it seems the Howard government gave Mr Terrorist the nod for his asylum bid and consequent Permanent Residence...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis. Yes Herr Fuhrer Abbott so you should undertake an urgent examination into the facts as to why the cabinet YOU served on gave this coward a ticket into the country! But I suppose now you will blame it on the Rudd/Gillard government for taking him off the Terror Watchlist. Excuse me...but wasn't it your Liberal Government who brought in all these wonderful and EFFECTIVE Terror Laws and watch-lists hot on the aftermath of 9/11 ?

yep the killing of the 132 kids in Pakistan overnight was the work of a few mentally ill people. Secularist have lied for decades about Christ and His teachings so why would they be in total denial about Islam. Moral relativism at its best. Thats why you get complete hypocrites approving of murdering the unborn and then condeming the gunman in Martin Place.

There are reports saying Monis The Bastard had about 14,000 social media followers and 63,000 likes on his Facebook before the accounts were taken down on Monday, he's no lone wolf.
It's also hard to make the case that he was a nutcase if you read his letters, it's all rational, he may have been a rapist, a swindler and a murderer but he knew what he was doing.
I'm left wondering if maybe he would have surrendered Tuesday morning or at least let all the hostages go before his last stand but that's of no importance now.

The noxious and naive Left-Miranda Devine.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/mirandadevine/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/the_noxious_and_naive_left/
Sydney Siege: The Left Responds with Its Usual Sensitivity...
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/12/15/Sydney-Siege-the-left-responds-with-its-usual-sensitivity
I Wish That Bird Would Fly Away...
http://www.steynonline.com/6711/i-wish-that-bird-would-fly-away

runner,

"yep the killing of the 132 kids in Pakistan overnight was the work of a few mentally ill people...."

We're not discussing the deplorable event in Pakistan.

We're discussing the unstable antecedents of the man who took hostages in Martin Place.

But you knew that....

For those who are trying to paint this man as any thing other than a delusional, dangerous clown please remember his first demand was for an ISIS flag. He either forgot it or was making it up as he went.

As to a head shot the discussion I had with a knowledgeable relative was that a major concern would have been in the backpack. Was it filled with explosives? Was there a dead man switch?

Actually as I am writing this channel 7 has mentioned these exact points plus talked about the thickened glass. The also have related there were wires observed hanging from the pack. It seems it was an old stereo speaker.

A bumbling dangerous fool.

"All indications are that he was what he appears to be - a somewhat unstable, opportunistic, self-promoting fake with a dubious history."

What is the relevance of this, Poirot? Are you claiming that, with or without the ISIS imprimatur, Monis would have perpetrated this? He had already taken on the cause as indicated by and his webpage and utterances before and during the siege, converting to Sunni, and demanded an ISIS flag. Are we not to take his own utterances and actions as evidence for his motivations? Why psychoanalyze the truth out of the way? A spade is a spade.

Peaceful Islam is compromised by a holy book that equally supports the actions of ISIS. What we need is a pledge to secularism by the Grand Mufti of Australia that all Muslims here must follow despite what the Quran might say in opposition to it.

This pledge should required of all other religions too. Anyone, from any religion, who works against this pledge by action, or by association, should be punished through laws legislated for the purpose, and to hell if some think that's a slippery slope.

What else do you see as heading off a great division in our society as events such as we have experienced are inevitably repeated to further polarize us? Harmony can not be achieved by avoiding the truth.

'We're discussing the unstable antecedents of the man who took hostages in Martin Place. '

Yep fits your 'progressive' narrative Poirot and you now that.

A .338 Lapua or a .50 BMG rifle would have ignored 11 mm of toughened glass but as has been pointed out Monis gave the impression that he had explosives and he could have been wearing a simple mercury switch that would have ignited an electronic explosive primer as soon as he fell.

The police could not take the risk of an explosion within the confined space of the cafe.

The police had no choice other than to negotiate.

Hold on everybody! It seems you have all forgotten the events in Endeavour Hills some months ago. Not blaming anyone as the ABC have not mentioned it either.
Some little ISIS supporting Afghan scrote sheltered by us as a refugee tried to kill two coppers outside the police station. He stabbed them both before one of them offed him.
So lets stop this rubbish about "Isolated" incident. It is just another one of a string of murder and mayhem.
Lets just help anyone but muslims into our country. Let them stay in muslim Malaysia or Indonesia although of course neither have Centrelink or any propensity to put up with dissidents.
I have no intention of bullying or standing by and seeing anyone else bullied on Public Transport. What about when we are insulted by signs saying "Behead those that insult the prophet", now that is bullying but not a peep from the mongrel media.

THe regressives just can't bring themselves to admit that this man was motivated by his religious beliefs ( same in every country where they have caused havoc and murderered the innocent). Instead he is a lone wolf with mental problems along with numerous other lone wolfs who hate the West. No doubt if it was a man killing a few women the motivation would definetely be the hatred of women rather than mental problems. Progressives are so pig headed with their narratives that they prefer to put inocent lives at risk than face reality. They have created a massive issue with muslim immigration from the middle east and now want to excuse all behaviours.

Thanks SteeleRedux and Is Mise

The information or views you've provided are valuable.

It shows that to raise a question that is a little, but not too off-beat, makes someone correct you with a better answer.

If security agencies/police, NSW Premier and PM suspected that Monis had a bomb in a backpack and a dead man's switch setup then that DID prevent the bright idea of a sniper shooting Monis.

If those that escaped (or were freed) couldn't clarify if Monis had no such switch or bomb then waiting and talking Monis out of it was the only way for police.

After bangs were heard at 2am it would have taken serious guts for the police to storm into the Cafe - not knowing whether a dead man's switch would set off a bomb in the Cafe and kill all.

Has to be said that a nut will take on religious clothing and in that respect IS provides a convenient excuse. Yet drunk drivers kill many more - though taking on the State is severly disruptive and intentionaly a media magnet.

Luciferase,

"....Why psychoanalyze the truth out of the way? A spade is a spade."

You're doing it too - why criticise moi?

A hasty conversion to Sunni does not an ISIS member make.

As SteeleRedux pointed out....

"...his first demand was for an ISIS flag. He either forgot it or was making it up as he went."

Gee, for a full-on ISIS convert he was a bit remiss methinks.

He was a violent criminal git who eventually found a violent criminal outlet for his extremist delusions - and the authorities should have rendered him impotent when they had the opportunity.

Have it your way, Poirot. Monis was not an agent of ISIS, just a silly bugger.

ISIS does not run suitability checks on agents, nor necessarily know them nor, does it appear so far, take responsibility for the actions of those it incites to carry out its war, like Monis. In this sense ISIS has been remiss in its duty of care to us. It should have directed a saner person to carry out its bidding, eh?.

There is still this difficult matter of a holy book that legitimizes the actions of ISIS but also serves peaceful Islam, if naughty bits about having to kill people are ignored.

Poirot, I know you can discern sane from mad extremists with a simple thought train, but don't you think a pledge to secularism that overrides anti-social megalo-maniacal religious ambitions would help the average Jo know where churches stand precisely? Coming from the top of each church, the pledge would help those within religion to accept social limits and perhaps even join more wholeheartedly into policing matters.

Poirot there is no point trying to point out some truths re this tragic incident to our resident bigots on this site, who most seriously imagine there are bomb-throwing mad Muslims around every corner in our cities!

From what we have heard through the media, this guy was just a really nasty criminal with mad tendencies, who also happens to be a Muslim.
Do we ask what religion all the other violent murderers or rapists are in our country?
No we don't, unless it is obvious by the way they are dressed.

There hasn't been a huge anti-Muslim outcry over this awful tragedy, because most intelligent Australians know the truth about the situation, and they won't judge this incident as being part of some Muslim conspiracy to take over Australia.....like some ignorant people on this site will.

Dear Hasbeen,

You write;

“Any sensible person in charge would have taken him out, with a head shot, at the first opportunity, & there were many opportunities. The head must roll of the fool in charge of the operation, if only to reinforce their approach was totally wrong, & must never be repeated. If that deputy commissioner in charge of the operation gets away with this catastrophe, the next time, & there will be a next time, this will be a precedent, a career safe way of doing things. This must not happen.”

So you would have taken the shot, never mind the risk of setting off explosives that may have killed far more people than those who lost their lives? Sometimes mate if you don't have a clue it is best just to shut up. Until I have heard far more information there is no way I want to second guess the police in this situation. Until I know otherwise I am going to assume they did a great job in very trying circumstances.

Actually, the problem is less that of a lone lunatic than of a large group of people whose values are not those of the West in general, or Australia in particular. I dare say that almost any Muslim, if asked about the Quran and Mohammad, would unequivocally proclaim their acceptance of the values and tenets derived from the mentioned two.

That is the problem. Islam does not lend itself to freedom of expression and belief, equality or separation of religion and state. Period. Anybody that argues otherwise has his/her head where the sun don’t shine. At the same time, being supposedly perfect, a Muslim must consequently reject any criticism of that perfection as untrue. To admit Islam’s faults is the first step to apostasy (and death). A good Muslim cannot accept or acknowledge criticism of Islamic dogma as valid and remain a Muslim. Therefore we see the need of Muslims to blame others, makes excuses and pretend that misdeeds of some have nothing to do with the “true” Islam. Based upon this principle, it would even seem that Mohammad was not a real Muslim, given his nefarious conduct. Note that not many Muslims want to talk about Mohammad’s endless wars on his neighbors, but they are a suitable study for understanding 21st century Muslim tactics, ideology and deceit

(Continued)

Yes, the state and its apparatus will use incidents such as the Sydney café episode to increase its powers and reach. That is typical of government and it is as pointless as harmful. This is not a manner of guns and bombs, prison and torture, wire taps or media surveillance. This is a war of ideology and the West is losing because it has betrayed its principles, making honesty and basic human rights subordinate to feel-good multiculturalism. Certainly the so-called sheik was not jailed because of our leaders’ fear of being labeled racist, even if this was not about race but actions. Just like the hundreds of Muslims in Rotherham, UK, that abused thousands of young women, the powers that be looked away, so the many crimes of Monis were ignored and down-played in the name of cultural differences and different standards.

This is not the end; more terror will come and people here will write and comment on how these things are not related to Islam, or that the danger is exaggerated. We are fools and we will pay the butcher’s bill in blood.

'Do we ask all other violent murderers and rapists their religion?'
No I dont imagine we do. And in most cases all the other violent murderers and rapists have a nationality, a colour, a size and shape. Their religion largely would be irrelevant because they dont 'define themselves by their religion' nor would they be very likely to be displaying the flag of their denomination intending to instill fear. Most of us occasionally might have a Jehova's witness 'watchtower' pushed onto us, and even engage in discussion on differing opinions. Agree to disagree and say your goodbyes, and that is about as intimidated or threatened anyone should have to feel by anothers religious belief.
So this fanatical, women hating, Australian hating sadistic pig, who, had he not been allowed into Australia all those years ago, would not have inflicted himself on his victims here and would probably still be paying for his crimes he committed in Iran before fleeing.
Our authorities need to keep up, tighten the regulations and know all they possibly can about who they are allowing in. Go visit Middle Eastern communities, experience first hand, then decide who the innocent are that need protection and asylum.

Have it your way Susie. Implicit in your criticism is the claim that what happened in Endeavour Hills and now Sydney would have happened anyway, without incitement by ISIS. That gives you the right to label me a bigot?

You throw that label around a bit much in your posts, attributing bigotry to anybody not sharing your rosey interpretations.

Perhaps it was my suggestion of a pledge to secularism that you object to, pie in the sky as it may seem? I see it as a way for Australian Muslims to formally peel away from the murderous aspects of their holy book in the eyes of the wider community, showing their solidarity with the rest of Australia rather than on a case by case basis with each atrocity. I see it as a call to followers to actively participate in the policing of terror. I see it as a formal proclamation that will depolarize sentiment towards Islam in Australia which is growing with each atrocity, and thwarted atrocity. I see it as a check on all religions with supremacist aspirations in this country, Christianity included. There are many in our community who would like Australia to be a theocracy rather than a secularist democracy.

I do not expect "bomb-throwing mad Muslims around every corner", but further atrocities will increase the number of people that do, regardless of whether you think that should be. Our police have been highly successful in their thwarting operations and we can only hope they continue to be so, necessitating whole-hearted support from the Muslim community.

The Legend of the Lone Wolf Terrorist

http://pjmedia.com/michaelledeen/2014/10/25/the-legend-of-the-lone-wolf-terrorist/?print=1
http://lopez.pundicity.com/15556/jihad-terrorism

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/28/us/oklahoma-beheading/
and Boston etc.

http://therightscoop.com/brigitte-gabriel-gives-fantastic-answer-to-muslim-woman-claiming-all-muslims-are-portrayed-badly/

Luciferase, it is one thing restricting immigration to Australia by trying to ensure no criminals or other unsavory characters can be admitted, and I am all in favour of that.

It is quite another to suggest we refuse entry to people from certain countries, cultures or religions, unless they have already individually shown they are not suitable for Australia.
We did not restrict all immigration from Ireland when the IRA were bombing all and sundry in Northern Ireland and England.

If one wants to restrict all people from any of these Muslim groups, then that is racism, pure and simple.
That is my opinion, like it or not.

'If one wants to restrict all people from any of these Muslim groups, then that is racism, pure and simple.
That is my opinion, like it or not.'

Yep Susie as naive and foolish as it is like it or not.

btw have you not learn't yet that Muslims are not a race.

Still denying we have been jihaded, Susie. Do you completely deny the role of ISIS in the Endeavour Hills and Sydney attacks? If so, put up. The perpetrators said what they were going to do and their extremist basis for doing it, then they did it.

Re immigration, Islam is a religion for some, and an ideology bent upon our destruction for others. Distinguishing these from each other is extremely difficult given they don't necessarily self-identify, but we should do our absoluteutmost to weed out the latter, including deporting those whose views become manifest after settling.

I'm not calling for blocking immigration to Muslims, especially given the majority of asylum seekers are Muslim. I think I am ideologist rather than racist. The argument is with ideology, not race, and I am prejudiced against those with an ideology bent upon destroying us. Call me old fashioned.

Dear Kactuz,

<<Actually, the problem is less that of a lone lunatic than of a large group of people whose values are not those of the West in general, or Australia in particular.>>

This may be your personal problem, not that of the victims in the Lindt Cafe.

When someone, myself included, does not share the values of the West in general or Australia in particular, it could indeed mean that they have no or lesser values - but it could also mean that they have different or even superior values.

Unlike Man Haron Monis, my presence here is an asset to Australia, not a liability. I am not a terrorist nor a criminal and the only "threat" I pose to Australian society is to expose the vanity of its culture and the stupidity of its ways.

Suse'
You're kidding right? From the end of WW2 Irish immigration basically stopped, apart from a few from the north who were British subjects and the Irish in Australia were treated with deep suspicion because they were rightly considered to be a seditious and untrustworthy ethnic group whose loyalties lay to their own people rather than Australia or Britain.
As far as us "Racists" are concerned the Irish immigrant can go home as well and take a Muslim under each arm, we don't want any more people coming here from the U.K and especially not from Ireland. The Muslims are somewhat of a menace on one level, an annoyance more than anything but it's the "educated", middle class English and Irish immigrants with their stupid liberal or socialist ideas who are doing the most harm in society.
I could go to Tehran or Kuala Lumpur and speak my mind on most any issue relating to race, nationalism or religion, if I did it in London or Dublin I'd be jailed or deported or both, this is why we're increasingly seeing international meetings of nationalists, unorthodox scholars and dissident thinkers held in places like Uzbekistan, Iran and Russia.

All religions commit atrocities against people they see as "non believers" Buddhists killed Muslims in Rohinga communities in Myanmar, Muslims suffered massacres at the hands of Hindu Fanatics in 2002, in Israel fanatic Orthodox Jews have also killed Muslims, Christians killed by Muslims in parts of Indonesia, and then there is the born again christian George Bush trying to impose his Western Christian values on the Middle East and further back Christian values placed on our own Aborigines who believed in the "Dream Time". When will people wake up to the fact that religion is the cause of all evil in the world, a mad religious lone nutter in Sydney or a mass murdering nutter like George Bush in the USA. Yes ! The whole world is full of nutters whose only thing on their mind is let's kill in the name of my belief in some being who does not exist, only in their head.
.

Exactly how I feel ojnab.
Religion appears to be at the root of many evils.

Runner, I never said Muslim was a race did I?

As far as I am concerned, deciding that all Muslims should be denied entry to Australia because of the actions of a few is very racist indeed, given there are many races and countries who are predominantly Muslim.

Good on you though Runner for managing to spit out a comment without bringing up your usual words of progressives, dogma, feminists and abortion......

Today's 18/12/2014 SMH article - All about what we've been discussing in this thread!
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/how-sydney-siege-gunman-tricked-police-into-thinking-there-was-a-bomb-in-his-backpack-20141217-129fqi.html

TITLE "HOW SYDNEY SIEGE GUNMAN TRICKED POLICE INTO THINKING THERE WAS A BOMB IN HIS BACKPACK"

They were the wires that had police wary.

As he walked around the Lindt cafe, siege gunman Man Haron Monis was wearing a backpack that he told hostages was filled with explosives.

Snipers stationed in the Channel Seven studio across the road could see wires poking out of the backpack and it was one of the reasons they were reluctant to take a shot at the gunman, according to a report from Seven journalist Chris Reason, who was on the scene.

Footage captured through the windows of the Lindt Chocolat Cafe in Martin Place clearly shows Monis wearing a large backpack as he creeps around inside the cafe, using hostages as human shields throughout the 16-hour siege.

The sharp images of Monis captured on camera led many to question why, if the cameras could get a clear view of Monis, the snipers did not shoot him earlier?

Reason said Monis had convinced the hostages that he was carrying a bomb, and police had no choice but to take that threat seriously.

One possibility was that the supposed bomb was fitted with a dead man's switch, which would automatically activate if Monis was incapacitated.

However when a police later examined the backpack they discovered an old stereo speaker inside the backpack, revealing just how calculated Monis had been in his movements. There were no explosives in the backpack, as he had claimed.

"It turned out the gunman was carrying an old stereo speaker, but at the time the police didn't know that and had to assume the worst," Reason reported.

Monis had also claimed there were bombs planted around the city, which proved to be false.

CONTINUED BELOW

FROM ABOVE

Channel Seven's studio in Martin Place is located directly across from the cafe, and provided such an ideal vantage point to view the unfolding hostage situation that a sniper positioned himself within the newsroom throughout the 16-hour siege.

The newsroom was evacuated, but Channel Seven cameraman Greg Parker and journalist Reason were allowed to remain in the studio. Parker fed live images to police command throughout the siege so they could devise an action plan.

Another reason why snipers did not take out Monis earlier was that they were shooting through reinforced glass, meaning it was impossible to predict with precision the path of the bullet. The risk of hitting a hostage was too great, Reason said.

Reason said that Monis yelled at the police tactical team as they raided the cafe.

"We've been told in those terrifying seconds that the police stormed in the Lindt cafe, Haron Monis was heard to scream 'Look what you've made me do!' before the police shot him down," Reason said.

Police have launched a critical incident investigation into the siege, which will formally establish how Monis and two hostages, Katrina Dawson and Tori Johnson, died.

Police have declined to comment on specific details of the siege while that investigation takes place.

ENDS

Luciferase,

"Still denying we have been jihaded, Susie..."

Yeah, from an unstable self-promoter who couldn't even manage to get hold of the right flag.

Where's the jihad cell he was connected to?

Where's the plan and all the cogent connections to ISIS...from the nutter who supposedly converted a month ago?

Hey Yuyutsu, who ye doing? Been a while..

I will be the first to say there are good Muslims. I will also say that the problem with good Muslims is that they blindly accept the hate and violence in the Quran and life of Mohammed with reflection or question. That means double standards.

Tell me, do you think there are things in the Quran that contribute to the slander, discrimination and violence done by Muslims to Non-Muslims, particularly to societies where Islam dominates?

Also, would you condemn anything done by Mohammed? If so, give and examples.

Those are two very simple direct questions. Can you respond?

I will be frank with you. On the whole, in my opinion, Muslim immigration to the West is a big minus and I would end it in a minute. When given a choice between the values of the West (personal liberty, freedom of speech, equality, human rights, separation of religion from state) and those of Islam, Muslims seem to be lacking in both word and deed. The obvious problems of integration, cooperation and mutual respect stem directly from their dogma and culture. If you have doubts about this, you are not paying attention.

Now if you want to talk about the evils of the West -- the immorality, sloth, grossness, filth, disrespect and such -- we can do that too and I bet I can trump you on that for no other reason than I have lived much longer than you. I am disgusted by what we have become.

Yuyutsu, this whole thing (whatever that means) will not end well. There will be blood in the streets. You can blame whoever you wish; I blame Muslims because they are willingly blind to the evil in their dogma and I blame our leaders for their falsehoods, stupidity and blindness.

Nobody here as a monopoly on truth and virtue, ok? You take care.

... they blindly accept the hate and violence in the Quran and life of Mohammed withOUT reflection or question

Strange Suseonline how OLO writers seem the think that George W Bush ( no mention from them) has a halo around his head, never did any wrong, but indirectly murded thousands of men, women & children, what sort of a nutter is that, to take away from the Aborigines their Dreamtime and replace it with Christian beliefs, that is like replacing one non belief system with another non belief system, (no proof of either but Dreamtime seems more logical to me than the other) but then the Christian one is right, right and right, what utter crap. To me it proves how stupid and gullible people are with religion, virgins in Heaven, non acceptance of someone else's blood, wear black clothes, smoke issuing from pots, biscuits in mouth,do not watch television, sins sins and many more sins,etc, what a crackpot world we live in, in the name of religion.
,

You are trying to deflect criticism of Islam by pointing out that the Lindt coffee shop terrorist was a nutcase, Binoy.

I agree he was a nutcase. So are all of Boko Haram, Jemiah Islamiah, the Taliban, Al Qaida, the Muslim Brotherhood, HAMAS, ISIL, and every suicide bomber. Islam seems to be a religion uniquely suited to nutcases.

Islam is a violent, misogynistic and totally intolerant religion which appeals to men with absolutist "Right Men" mentalities. The sort of men who kill and beat their wives because their wives have disobeyed them would feel right at home in Islam. Every two bit gutless moron who feels aggrieved by everything, and who knows that nothing is ever his fault, would have his stupid opinions reinforced by Islam.

After shooting dead one hostage the Lindt terrorist screamed at the police "See what you made me do?" Nothing is ever the fault of a Muslim.

There was one incident in Sydney where a Muslim burglar faced the court for his repeat offences and he was given a custodial sentence by the judge. But he told the judge that he could not go to jail, because if he went to jail his family would suffer and it would be "all the judge's fault." Muslim logic.

Anyway, it was just as well that the NSW Police shot dead the terrorist, because on the record of his previous re offending, which included 40 sex offences, and involvement in the murder of his wife, you can bet that the judiciary would have given him bail again.

Ojnab,
Snap out of it, murder is no joke and your post is irrelevant, we all accept that Monis wasn't a real Jihadi, he was a fake Muslim and this issue has precisely nothing to do with any other religion either.

The absolute worst thing Australians can do now is assume that the worst has happened, that we've somehow seen the face of Islamic aggression and prevailed, the Martin Place siege wasn't an act of religious extremism and the real thing, when it comes will be far worse and far more traumatic.
We'll see how tolerant Australians are the next time,when a school or a nightclub is attacked, when the death toll is in the dozens or hundreds instead of single figures.

Suse,

You said "....We did not restrict all immigration from Ireland when the IRA were bombing all and sundry in Northern Ireland and England.

If one wants to restrict all people from any of these Muslim groups, then that is racism, pure and simple.
That is my opinion, like it or not".

Not all Irish people were members of the IRA but all Muslims are members of a religion/political system that condemns democracy and condones murder to further its expansion.

The way forward for Muslims in Australia is to repudiate the teachings of Muhammad and to pick another path to salvation.

Jay of Melbourne this was not an isolated event. Dozens of these rubbish have been trying to get to Syria and start raping and beheading. The little scum at Endeavour Hills I remind you again. Mum & Dad wanted him at 18 to go to Afghanistan and get married. Obviously to some compliant and cowed simple girl hopefully over age nine?
This is not isolated at all and these rubbish people are playing themselves as the victims which worked so well for them in Europe.
They do not fit in here, hate us and think they are superior. I hope with no fanfare we just blank off the middle east countries, all of them.
Re-locate them to no Centrelink Papua New Guinea and see how they last.
I am waiting for the ABC to start treating Islam as they treat Christianity with scorn and disgusting derision but they know what would happen if they did.

J Bowyer,
What you mean access to overpriced, greasy kebabs and tabouleh really wasn't a fair trade for taking all the north Lebanese crime families off the hands of the Syrian army in the 1970's?
We're getting screwed then because the Afghans, Somalis and Tamils don't even have any new foods with which to enrich our palates, and with the Chinese and Indians flooding in we've already got more cheap whores, drug dealers, breast gropers, flashers and child molesters than we can handle!

Dear Kactuz,

<<Tell me, do you think there are things in the Quran that contribute to the slander, discrimination and violence done by Muslims to Non-Muslims, particularly to societies where Islam dominates?>>

Definitely. There are both good and bad things in the Quran: the good are really good and the bad are really bad.

<<Also, would you condemn anything done by Mohammed? If so, give and examples.>>

I condemn the same things as yourself in relation to the figure of Mohammed as depicted by the books of Islam. I do doubt however that Mohammed the man had anything to do with the Muslim narrative. I would like to believe that he was framed and had nothing to do with those horror stories attributed to him.

This way, a good Muslim can believe that there is no God but Allah, that Mohammed was his messenger, but the Quran is a mixed bag, containing some of the words of Mohammed and some rubbish added after his death without his knowledge or consent; and that many of the stories about Mohammed were invented by his successors for political reasons and never actually occurred.

Yuyutsu,
Yeah, well Mein Kampf isn't all venom either and the tales of Hitler's misdeeds and poor character are greatly exaggerated but the way we deal with people who still cling to his teachings is to expose them, humiliate them and get them to repudiate their ideas in public.
If they refuse to recant we get them fired from their jobs, put photos of their spouse and children online along with all their personal details,credit history, medical records etc.
If Muslims want to be seen as "real Aussies" they need to prove it, repudiate Islam and find another hobby. #irenounceislam

Really, Poirot!

"Where's the jihad cell he was connected to?

Where's the plan and all the cogent connections to ISIS...from the nutter who supposedly converted a month ago?"

ISIS is not The Mickey Mouse Club where you send in your form signed by Mum'n'Dad and a self-addressed envelope and receive a club kit, including a mouseketeer hat, instructions for the secret handshake, and words to the club song.

ISIS agents are identified as those that do its bidding and claim to be doing so. Are you really claiming the actions at Endeavour Hills and Sydney would have transpired without ISIS incitement? Don't be so Mickey-Mouse, and get a grip!

Dear Jay,

Hitler is a different case because he lived in our times, he was recorded and filmed and there are still even people living today who saw him - not so Muhammad. Some claim that he didn't even exist while personally I believe that he did, but many things written about him are not true.

Thus there is nothing wrong with clinging to the teachings of Muhammad so long as one denies the identity between his teachings and the current teachings of Islam, repudiating parts of the latter but not necessarily the former.

<<If Muslims want to be seen as "real Aussies" they need to prove it>>

But why should they want to be seen as such?
I for example have no such interest (and I'm not Muslim)!

What business of yours is it whether another is seen as a "real Aussie" or not - your only business in this matter is that they do not harm you or put you at risk and that's the only thing they need to prove.

How they prove their innocence and harmlessness is not up to you, so long as they prove it. In fact, repudiating Islam (which you suggest as the ultimate test) doesn't prove that one is harmless - we have quite a number of true-blue real Aussie criminals who are not Muslim!

Dear Luciferase,

I certainly agree that ISIS would like to do us some damage. Leaving aside any judgement on whether we should have put half a billion dollars worth of assets into supporting the Yanks in this fight, the fact that we are so determined to drop bombs on these guys heads means that the likelihood of a response is pretty high, if they were ever able to manage it.

Australia could have forsworn direct military engagement and instead helped by arming other rebel groups, assisted the millions of displaced people, or provided logistical support. But our government has judged our ties with the US to be of a significance that direct bombing was the call. Certainly their prerogative as a ruling party in a democracy

Australians of course need to recognise that our actions have increased the risk of retaliation. Some think that risk is worth it even if purely on humanitarian grounds, and some do not but that is a different argument.

Islamic extremists, home grown or otherwise are not stabbing cops, beheading soldiers, nor laying siege to coffee shops in Brazil for instance.

What we should never do is accept the proposition that we are over there in order to keep Australia and Australians safer from the very limited capacity of ISIS to do us harm. It patently does not.

Having said that to call the brutish fool in Sydney a response by ISIS is inane. I have no doubt that Australia's continued offence against ISIS raises the risk of retaliation considerably and the authorities will have to be extra vigilant for many years to come. But in terms of a supposed ISIS blowback the false sheikh was little more that a fart, more an embarrassment to them than anything.

Luciferase,

"ISIS is not The Mickey Mouse Club where you send in your form signed by Mum'n'Dad and a self-addressed envelope and receive a club kit, including a mouseketeer hat, instructions for the secret handshake, and words to the club song."

Yes, yes very clever...thanks for the patronisation...but deep down I think you realise that the fake sheik was exactly that - "a fake" - right down to his supposed terrorist links.

Is Mise "
"Not all Irish people were members of the IRA but all Muslims are members of a religion/political system that condemns democracy and condones murder to further its expansion."
What a dreadful thing to say Is Mise, by suggesting all Muslims condone murder!
Many Muslims in this country have come here to escape the radical Muslim clerics and Taliban that cause mayhem where they used to live.

"The way forward for Muslims in Australia is to repudiate the teachings of Muhammad and to pick another path to salvation."
Lol!
Would that 'salvation' come in the form of your Christian God then Is Mise?
The fun religion populated by people such as Runner?
There is no religion on earth that can boast a murderless past....

Steele, I ask you what I did of Poirot and Suzie, and haven't had a straight reply. Are you claiming Endeavour Hills and Sydney would have occurred without incitement by ISIS?

I don't care much whether you think jihad should only be the province of less farty, embarrassing, brutish fools, or whether these events mean we're losing the war on ISIS. I do have concerns with the way Abbott has loudly lead us into this chin-first, but that's now equally academic.

Obviously, the answer to my question is important.

If you answer yes, you are ignoring the motives expressed by the perpetrators themselves, head in the sand, but more comfortable than requiring Australian Muslims to formally renounce aspects of the Quran supporting the actions of ISIS.

If you answer no, it must follow that Australian Muslims be required to formally renounce aspects of the Quran supporting the actions of ISIS.

What is the problem with this requirement, which I have previously couched positively as a commitment to secular democracy? The actions of ISIS supported by the Quran are all about achieving supremacy in violent ways, but there is direction therein about achieving it in smaller, quieter ways too.

Why do you, Poirot and Susie reject the simple truth about the ISIS connection? Why must we avoid making this request of Islam (and all other religions) in Australia? Is it because they may refuse? Then what, we continue to live in growing distrust with each new atrocity, and thwarted atrocity, until something snaps?

Facing the honest truth is a first step towards dealing with the issue of jihad in Australia. We should be able to do that without fear if the same commitment is required of all religions. The onus that an allegiance to a secular democracy puts on all religious people will then be clearly to act against anything that threatens it. Atheists can keep on doing what they're already doing, pointing out where religion is overstepping the line.

To Susieoncrack.

If you can condemn all Nazis as being hostile to everything you believe in, why does the idea of condemning all Muslims for the same reason outrage you? Isn't that a clear double standard?

Muslims believe in Sharia Law, they could not be Muslims if they do not.

That means it is OK to marry 11 year olds, allow Susioncrack's husband to beat her with a dirty big stick, kill people who try and leave Islam, punish women who get raped, claim that ecclesiastical law trumps common law, that people who criticise Islam should be murdered, that it is right to spread Islam by force, that homosexuals should be murdered, that women are essentially minors and the property of men, and that Muslim men may marry outside of Islam but Muslim women may not.

And you defend them?

But if the yanks do anything that you remotely consider wrong, you jump up and down, froth at the mouth, and condemn the Americans. While simultaneously claiming that condemning entire groups of people for their group behaviour is utterly wrong.

Zbigniew Brezezinski in his book 'The Grand Chessboard' in the late 1990's said, "What we need is a widely perceived direct external threat." Others backed this saying they needed a new Pearl harbour. The new Pearl Harbour was 911 and terrorism not communism was the new threat that could not be well defined so we the people would eventually become the terrorists and subjugated by our own Govts.

On the 25/9/14 the CEC got intelligence that a terrorist attack would soon happen on Australian soil. Was Monis another false flag event or was he just another nutter with no connections to any organised terrorist groups ? ISIS is a Saudi, Mossad CIA creation. That is well known. Look for anomalies in this Monis siege.The first one is that they knew he was dangerous and in 2000 Iran sought his extradition for crimes there.

One of the pities of an incident such as has just happened in Martin Place is that it gives an excuse for all the ignorant bigots to pour forth their bile about the Islamic religion, demanding, inter alia, that they renounce Islam if they are to be considered true Aussies. a simple question? Would they make the same demand of Christians to renounce the Old Testament? That set of documents contains a large number of exhortations involving the violent death of unbelievers, as well as other social prescriptions that are abhorrent to a true liberal democracy.

It is in any case absurd to condemn a religion of 1.5 billion adherents on the basis of the actions of a tiny fraction of that number. Does one condemn Christianity because a true believer like George Bush the Lesser is a major war criminal responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis? Of course not, so lets hear less of bigoted and ignorant rants against Islam.

As was pointed out in an earlier post, there are a lot of unanswered questions about the Martin Place perpetrator, and those of a suspicious mind would have received some confirmation from this morning's SMH which reports Abbott as already saying that we may not be told the whole story because of "national security considerations". That is usually a euphemism for avoiding embarrassment. In that case the embarrassment is likely to be the role Monis played as, at best, a useful idiot on behalf of the national security state. It might help explain the otherwise inexplicable nature of his career, including being protected from extradition; remaining on bail unopposed by the DPP; and making regular statements that just happened to coincide with the need to condemn the enemy du jour.

James,

The Old Testament has no bearing on Christianity except those parts, such as the Commandments, specifically mentioned by Christ, who said "I bring you a New Testament...."

Islam is incompatible with democracy.

James O'neil correct, I do not think no matter how much you try that one lunatic in Sydney by killing two people is no different to another lunatic in the USA indirectly killing thousands of people, the world will always be filled up with lunatics believing in supernatural beings or what ever, this will not be the first nor the last,, the next lunatic decision will be to declare war on supposed enemies, where we possibly will all be exterminated by a bunch of lunatics, perhaps this may be a good thing to happen, lunatics will disappear with the rest of us thank goodness.

Yes...you can tell there's a simmering underground Islamic extremist sentiment in Australia by the way other Australian Muslims approach Monis.

Take this for instance:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2879222/Muslim-funeral-directors-say-not-accept-body-Siege-gunman-Man-Haron-Monis.html

"Sydney's head Islamic funeral director has said that no Muslim funeral home will accept the body of Siege gunman Man Haron Monis, suggesting instead that authorities dump his body at sea.

The body of Monis remains in the morgue, and has yet to be claimed. It is set to be be released before Christmas."

"When asked about the fate of the 50-year old extremists body, Amin Sayed, the funeral director within the Lebanese Muslim Association, said 'we don't care about him, we don't know him, chuck him in the bloody shithouse.'

'Nobody's going to do his funeral. No Muslim funeral home will accept him,' he said.

'They can throw him in the bloody sea."

"Mr Sayed said Monis would receive a secret funeral with an unmarked grave, and that they would not accept any amount of money to arrange his funeral.

'Anyone who does harm to Australians, we don't want him,' he said."

Legob, charming as usual.
The bile spilling from your throat must burn you?

Poirot, Steele and Ojnab , voices of reason is a sea of hatred.

As this thread degenerates further into a Muslim hate-fest, I take solace in the fact that the majority of Aussies do not feel the same way as the usual suspects on this site....

See you all on another thread.
Suse.

MONIS VICTIM OF OUR SOCIETY!

Check out Haigh's OLO article today where he basically says Monis was a victim of our society. http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=16957

Haigh says Monis was suffering from post traumatic stress (PTS) and "This neglect represents a significant failure in the duty of care on the part of Australian authorities."

We have the right so say what we think of this gutless view at: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16957

Yes Suseonline the hatred spilling forth from OLO writers is beyond belief, where is their so called Christian values, a broader picture of the whole world must be taken into account , as poverty, unemployment develops there is going to be more demonstrations and killings between the haves and have nots, Governments know this is going to happen, that is why they are making it harder for the ordinary citizen to demonstrate, possibly if demonstrations of the Vietnam war were to take place now, bullets would be the order of the day, hatred develops quickly, it is human nature, you can tell this by the letter writers here, I do not condone what happened in Sydney nor do I condone Bush invading Iraq.

James O'Neill: "One of the pities of an incident such as has just happened in Martin Place is that it gives an excuse for all the ignorant bigots to pour forth their bile about the Islamic religion, demanding, inter alia, that they renounce Islam if they are to be considered true Aussies."

Have I said Muslims must entirely renounce their religion? Where? You consider yourself a voice of reason, yet you are against a renunciation of parts of the Quran that target you to die? Why is it bad form to raise this aspect of the Quran? Political correctness? I'm not going to be PC'ed out of the way by your name-calling, but I do admit to being a bigot in relation to any ideology that wants me dead. You must be a better person than I as you are more accommodating, eh?

I'll ask you the same question as the others. Would the events at Endeavour Hills and Martin Place have occurred without incitement by ISIS? Answer this honestly and quietly to yourself, then apply your superior reasoning skills from there.

It's very easy to attack those of a Muslim background - because there is a "book" people can throw at these people. Words can be quoted from and assessments then can be made.

People of a "Anglo Saxon" backround (I don't like the term - as there is no such country), but I am part Scottish, French, British, German and Australian) - so I and a lot of other Australian's can't be sent back anywhere, in that context and those with no religious view (in particular) can easily stand a "high moral ground".

Many comments I have read since the Martin Place incident, have been nothing short of ridiculous, (like the Senator calling for less gun regulation). Many have no well researched base to them and anyone who questions these people can be attacked (like being a left wing extremist), when I'm not, and are forced to defend their credentials.

It's a very clever debating technique by the "deniers" of the issue to "cop out" and not have to recognise that when it comes to down to any religion or society in general - each and every person is different.

I know this for example. When a Church of Jesus Christ pair came to my front door - I spoke about vegetarianism (being one myself) - and found one of the pair was also vegetarian. I was amazed. I didn't expect this.

Not everyone is the same - and those who want hate please return this book of your favorite author to your local library. Stop promoting the "hate card" as it's not helping anyone, particularly the victims in this case, or the investigation occurring at present.

Joseph Goebbels : “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

We have to realise that only the extreme elements of Islam is being used by our elites to divide and conquer what little democracy remains in the West. We are being trained to hate all Muslims but like Christians ,they are not a homogenous group. It was just a little while ago we had the inquisitions and mass murder from Papal authorities. They helped the Nazis escape justice after WW2.

Our Central banking dynasty goes back over 300 yrs with the European and British Monarchies playing a central role in this march to global governance or "New World Order" by the elites for the elites and no rights for us.

How powerful would you be if you could create from nothing,all the money as debt for our Govts to function ? Central Bankers have had enormous power for a long time but now in this era,they want absolute power over us and our Govts.

China and Russia are breaking away from this evil system with the BRICS trading and banking alliance, this is why they are being demonised.

Our central bankers are desperate,this is why WW3 beckons.

Thanks Albie Manton in Darwin

Joseph Goebbels : “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it"

APPLIES TO MONIS's LIES completely.
--

Hi Arjay

At Christmas God tells us to have pity on the mentally challenged. So for you is a little poem, called:

THE WEE SCOTTISH CHRISTMAS FAIRY

I am a little wee fairy
On tap o' the Christmas Tree
It's no' a job I fancy
Well how would you like tae be me

A’ tarted up wi' tinsel
It's enough to mak ye boak
An’ a couple o' jaggy branches
Rammed up the back o' your frock

An' these wee lights a' roon me
I cannae get my sleep
An' there's the yearly visit
Fae Santa - Big fat creep!

On Christmas Day I'm stuck up here
While you're a' wirin' in
An' naebody says "Hey, you up there
Could you go a slug o' gin?

It's nae joke bein' a fairy
The job's beyond belief
You've got to go roon' the wean's beds
An' lift their rotten teeth

But o' a' the joabs a fairy gets
An' I've mentioned only some
The very worst is sitting up a tree
Wi' pine needles up yir bum

When a' the fairies meet again
By the light o’ the silvery moon
Ye can tell the Christmas fairies
They're the wans that canna sit doon

The Christmas tree's a bonny sight
As the firelight softly flickers
But think o' me I'm stuck up here
Wi' needles in my knickers

So soon as Christmas time's right by
An' I stop bein' sae full o' cheer
I'll get awa back tae Fairyland
An' I'll see yous a' next year

Up Yours Santa and the Banks

:)

Pete

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it" what comes to my mind first is all religions, the above fits belief systems perfectly.

Arjay well said, your writing is correct, WW3 is certainly looming .

Re-posting "We have to realise that only the extreme elements of Islam is being used by our elites to divide and conquer what little democracy remains in the West. We are being trained to hate all Muslims but like Christians ,they are not a homogenous group. It was just a little while ago we had the inquisitions and mass murder from Papal authorities. They helped the Nazis escape justice after WW2.

Our Central banking dynasty goes back over 300 yrs with the European and British Monarchies playing a central role in this march to global governance or "New World Order" by the elites for the elites and no rights for us."

Pete I think you have the problems of mental deficiency but more so of the lack of courage. He who pays the piper calls the tune. You are happy to enslave your own children and future generations to these criminals for a moments security ? Have a long look in the mirror tonight and face your siblings about the truth of their enslavement

Dear Arjay
(and all other paranoids)

Here's the Senator Brandis Christmas Carol.

(Tune: Santa Claus is Coming to Town)

You better watch out,
You better not cry,
You better not pout,
We're telling you why,
Brandis is tapping, Your phone.

He's buggin your dog,
He's reading your mail,
Storing metadata
And runnin a tail
Brandis is tapping Your phone

He hears you in the bedroom
Surveilles you out of doors
And if that doesn't get the goods
He'll send in provocateurs.

So you mustn't assume
That you are secure
On Christmas Eve
He'll rapp on your door
Brandis is tapping Your phone.

To all a Naked Selfie
At Christmas
On file.

Pete I've been posting on George Brandis' facebook for some time. He has now shut down all comments on his facebook. George Brandis is just like George Bush and Dick Cheney. They all subscribe to the Nazi philosophy.

Pete, do you want your children to be debt slaves to this Nazis system of total human enslavement ? A simple yes or no will suffice.

It looks like Susioncrack has fled the arena, my next favourite victim is James O'Neill

In answer to your first question, James, Christianity is fundamentally a peaceful religion which is dying a slow death in the West anyway, and even the Old Testament did not order Christians to kill, behead, cut the throats of, or amputate the fingers of, non Christians. My own Christian religious teachers who were allowed to shove their religion down my throat at school, informed me that the New Testament's teachings involving Jesus Christ superseded the Old Testament anyway.

Your second paragraph, posed the question of whether it was fair to blame an entire group for the actions of an individual from that group. Yes it can be. To begin with, all Nazis are considered equally guilty of the Holocaust, and every member of the Ku Klux Klan is considered to be equally reprehensible by most people.

You see if an individual from any minority group engages in hostile acts against another group, which is in full accordance with the stated aims of the minority group, then the entire minority can, and should, be held accountable. The onus is upon the leaders of the minority group to please explain how the culture which defines their group identity, and which clearly declares hostility towards non members, is not entirely responsible for the act of the individual. This the Muslims leaders have failed to do. They can not condemn the violent instructions of their own God towards non believers.

Furthermore, it is necessary form the leaders of the minority group to distance themselves are far as possible from the actions of the individual who has engaged in hostile acts against the majority. This the Muslim leaders have done, but it was only a couple of months ago that these same leaders were condemning Australia's anti terror laws and saying that they would not co operate with the police. Now that one of their number has obeyed the instructions from their evil God, they can hardly complain that their religion should not be condemned in it's entirety.

LEGO,
The Muslim "leaders" don't represent the Muslim population, for example Keysar Trad concedes that his Islamic friendship association only has twelve members and most of the spokespeople with their foundations and institutes are actually individuals.
The "Islamophobia Register" is a woman with a Facebook page and a the liberal minded, well behaved young Muslim women interacting with strangers in Martin Place are an extreme minority, almost an oddity in the Muslim population.
It's very easy to throw Monis under the bus because he was an outsider, a Shi'ite and a known troublemaker, the Sunni Sheikhs don't lose any face among their congregations by condemning him and getting brownie points from the government.
You'll remember though that the Islamic associations in Victoria either refused to comment on the Numan Haider case or refused to condemn him, that's because he was the real thing, a genuine Sunni Jihadi with an unbreakable commitment to Islam who became a martyr for the cause.

Dear lego,

Susionline did not 'flee the arena', it is thread on a virtual discussion site which she left primarily because discussion with people like you, those who get their jollies using terms like 'Susioncrack' and personalising the issue by making inane statements like “allow Susioncrack's husband to beat her with a dirty big stick”, are evidently not interested in civil discourse.

Why is it that people like you seem to get all hairy chested and go after the more gentle participants on this forum? If Susionline had been having a decent go at you then I might understand by she hadn't even mentioned you before your post. You just ripped right on in there then clapped your little hands when you thought you had chalked up a win.

But you aren't a winner are you. Instead these are the actions of a loser.

Well you can keep spewing out your bilious nonsense for all you are worth but instead of wanting to bonk James and others on the head with your little sand bucket how about heading over this way.

Christianity Lego a peacefull religion, I do not think so, havn't you heard of the God given saviour George Bush, why transpose a Dreamtime to Christianity, is Christianity the be all and end all of religions, Abbott & co, peacefull I do not think so when he cannot wait to join his friend Obama to create WW3, torture in jails, but shut mouths by our Government, the Christian religion is no better than any other at killing, raping, torturing etc, but if you read the Murdoch press the Western & Chriistian religion is so squeaky clean, read other media other than that media site,to read some truth for a change. Suseonline is a breath of fresh air with her writings.

LOL, SteeleRedux, the 1950's White Knight who believes that women should be rescued from themselves.

Susie, SteeleRedux and Ojnab and other 'regressives'have shown time and time again that they either deliberatlely misrepresent Chrsit and His teaching or are just totally ignorant. What chance then have they of assessing the 'religion of peace'. Strange how they all support the death cult of killing the unborn. Failure to acknowledge the corruption in one's own heart leads to all sort of irrational conclusions. That is simply why they defend the indefensible.

Ojnab,

That is wild stuff.

Not so sure that cracked bell(e) Susioncrack (that is funny) would be in lockstep with you when you disrespect Obama.

Although the authoritarian Leftists like Susioncrack ;) are probably tired of him because his promised magic spells to have everyone on welfare or as a government employee (same thing, some say) has rung hollow and he has gone lame.

Dear Steelredux.

I have been on OLO for about four years now, and generally speaking, the two opposing sides of our debates consist of international socialists, and free market nationalists. The international socialists are renowned for thinking that they are the font of all that is good and holy, and they think that they are intellectually superior to their opponents. They constantly talk down to us as if we were naughty children who do not know right from wrong, and constantly label us racists, bigots, and moral reprobates.

I don't mind them acting that way, and unlike you, I don't whine about it. I just return fire and give as good as I get. This is very entertaining to our readers. Plain outright abuse is not entertaining at all, but a bit of clever repartee' can be very amusing.

Look, I will make a deal with you. When your trendy lefty mates stop pretending that they are the keepers of the gate for all human virtue, I will stop sticking pins in their inflated egos. But they are not going to do that. Their entire motivation is to come on these sites and display their presumed moral and intellectual superiority to the Great Unwashed.

I was once a trendy lefty myself because like so many young people, I had been conditioned by my education and by popular culture to think that the socialist internationalist worldview was the preserve of educated and intelligent people. And just like Susie, I wanted to think that I was intelligent, so I simply parroted the slogans of the peer group I aspired to join. But fortunately, I was smart enough to see the contradictions in their arguments and to understand that the trendy lefty viewpoint is intellectually bankrupt. The weakest link in the chain of vanity that trendies like yourself have is this opinion that you are the smart ones. You can bet that I am going to use sarcasm, irony, and wit to keep sawing away at that link.

You people may be smart, but you are not thinking smart.

That's the most long-winded excuse for having no manners I've read, Lego. You're right tho', you can be very amusing.

"Susie, SteeleRedux and Ojnab and other 'regressives'have shown time and time again that they either deliberatlely misrepresent Chrsit and His teaching or are just totally ignorant..."

Well...Guffaw!...we won't see any better example of the pot calling the kettle black than that comment from runner.

As a person who purports to represent Christ, he comes across on this forum as the antithesis of any such morality. his posts are usually full of judgmental derision...and I don't think he can claim "ignorance".

.......

Luciferase,

"That's the most long-winded excuse for having no manners I've read, Lego. You're right tho', you can be very amusing."

Lol!....Spot on!

Yes, Lego, you are very entertaining, and I agree with you wholeheartedly in all you say.

Susieoncrack - gentle? Are you kidding? Every time I try and read her posts she is full of aggro and makes me feel unwell. She is one sick puppy. Actually, I think a rottweiler is more appropriate.

What is it with these females always coming to the rescue for each other? Like a tribe.

Along comes Ojnab, the loopy conspiracy theorist Arjay's lapdog out to break her own bad grammar record with a whopping 100 word sentence that made no sense whatsoever. Give it a break, no one is being convinced by your delusions?

LEGO

Yes, I mainly read the Forum on the posts that I think that you're most likely to contribute to, firstly, because I find you a voice of reason in a whole babble of inanity, but also because I find you immensely amusing.

Your take-off from the "What have the Romans ever done for us?" skit from "The Life of Brian" about a month ago made my whole day, and I still chuckle thinking about it.

Yes, we in the West have made a serious mistake by opening our borders to an influx from adherents of the "Religion of Peace". Islam has a lot in common with Fascism, or the Italian Mafia, in that it's all nice and cuddly until you question their morality, or try to leave. It's now increasingly likely that we'll have a European "Civil" war in the near future, as the Swedes, Dutch, or English try to get rid of Islam.

One can perhaps understand how Mohammed (S.O.H.G) gathered a following 1400 years ago, but followers today are either ignorant of what a monster he was; approve of his vile actions - and therefore also of ISIS; or are frightened, understandably so, of speaking out.

Personally, I would place Mohammed well above Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan, etc, in any list of inhuman monsters.

Oh the lovely Poirot

did not think it would be long before you come spitting your venom.

I wish you all a very Merry Christmas or Christmyth, and look forward to all OLO writers in 2015 with their viewpoints, it is always interesting and challenging, even if we do not agree on all subjects.

When Christians do the wrong thing they are undermining the teachings of their founder; when Muslims do the wrong thing they are upholding the teachings of their founder.

Going back a few days ago Poirot in defence of Monis the victim rather than monis the terrorist says: On his website, Monis spouted the rhetoric of global jihad. He called for Muslims to fight the “terrorism of America and its allies including Australia.”

WTF do you want as proof Poirot? The man was Islamic, it doesn't matter if he was a nut case because anyone who decides to blow themselves up is a nutcase. What does matter is he was purposely carrying out his version of a terror attack. Do you think the people inside weren't fearing for their lives as they were forced to hold the Islamic flag in the window. Do you think even one of those people was thinking "Oh, were are okay, this guy isn't a real Muslim?"

He declared his act was for IS, he made political demands, he held hostages and threatened to kill them, and did kill. That is terrorism.

Why on earth do you and those like you insist this wasn't a terrorist act? If this isn't, then you will probably be making the same pathetic excuses when/if something worse happens. What is in this for you, that you feel such a need to argue some political correct BS rather than accept the facts on this issue? You couldn't be more wrong.

ConservativeHippie,

"Going back a few days ago Poirot in defence of Monis the victim rather than monis the terrorist says: On his website, Monis spouted the rhetoric of global jihad. He called for Muslims to fight the “terrorism of America and its allies including Australia.”

I didn't say that...it was embedded in an article I was quoting...and you left out the following..." But the attention seeker was likely exploiting outsized panic over ISIS for attention."

That is the general consensus, even from the NSW police - that he was opportunistically attaching himself to any and every movement in an effort to promote himself.

And my point was not that this wasn't terror. It was that it wasn't part of an organised operation by IS or others. You can rattle on as much as you like. This nutter wasn't an IS operative.

As horrendous as it was, his terror was delivered on behalf of himself and his delusions.

...and so is your narrative, Poirot.

Dearest LEGO

On this Holy Night (+ 5 sleeps) is not only your true self
(not the Banjo Retard)

- but Larry the Cable Guy - "Politically Correct" Christmas Story http://youtu.be/eidz4JD7F80

But this Holy Night stars Monis the mercifully Dead Terrorist http://youtu.be/Q0vZnwtvgLw

And Susie is real nice - I should know :)

Pete

Poirot,

"And my point was not that this wasn't terror. It was that it wasn't part of an organised operation by IS or others. You can rattle on as much as you like. This nutter wasn't an IS operative"

How do you know?

Oooooh looky, Steelredux. Poirot is being abusive and calling runner "ignorant."

Show how morally superior and fair minded you are, Steelredux, by giving Poirot a kick up the Kyber Pass.

"....Poirot is being abusive and calling runner "ignorant."

Hmmm....how does that translate from this:

"....and I don't think he can claim "ignorance"."

But I think I'll leave ya to it....more often than not it's like playtime in primary school on this forum - no wonder I've been spending time elsewhere.

Just as a point of interest, can anyone tell me why there is continual reference in the media and elsewhere to Muslim Clerics, when Islam does not have clerics?

'But I think I'll leave ya to it....more often than not it's like playtime in primary school on this forum - no wonder I've been spending time elsewhere.'

So typical of the left when their group think ideology is exposed for what it is. Pick up my bat and go home. And to think they have the deception to think its intellectual superiority. Please give me a break. Keep dreaming.

Dear Lego,

You wrote;

“I just return fire and give as good as I get.”

But this wasn't a case of returning fire was it, Suseonline had not even addressed you in the thread. You just chose to go boots in right from the get go but now are trying the typical sandpit bully refrain of 'But Sir she started it'.

She hadn't.

And pray tell what part of your deluded brain thinks 'Susioncrack' and “allow Susioncrack's husband to beat her with a dirty big stick” is “bit of clever repartee”?

So very typical of yet another bullying refrain 'But Sir it was just a pinch not a punch'.

You were right about one thing - “Plain outright abuse is not entertaining at all”, how about refraining from it then.

Steele: “Plain outright abuse is not entertaining at all”, how about refraining from it then."
Vain hope my friend. People like Lego, Runner, Hasbeen and their ilk (and you will recognise them) take a vicarious pleasure in their bile filled ignorant rants. Dare to disagree and you risk being labelled from their limited choice of derogatory epithets. Some at least try to engage with the issues and discuss them without personal abuse, which like you I find singularly unfunny.

I wish you, suseonline, poirot and similarly minded thinkers the very best for the festive season.

@SteeleRedux, Sunday, 21 December 2014 4:58:07 PM

LOL, SteeleRedux employing the 'Drama Queen" ploy, claiming to be offended in order to ignore his opponent's prior arguments.

SteeleRedux,

There is no way that you can play the victim as well as some of OLO's leftist womyn who flip seemlessly between persecutor and victim.

They are shameless in sledging with ad hominen personal attacks on opponents and flipping to claim personal offence themselves, getting themselves entirely bent out of shape because someone has had the temerity to challenge their opinions and odd world view (to be diplomatic).

A deliberate ploy, but so needy nonetheless, especially where they plead for others to lock-step with them. Them against the world. LOL

Heh, heh, do carry on.

James you realise that to live among Muslims old White racists like me would only have to learn the proper religious obeisances and prayers, make a few tweaks to our diet and take a brief holiday in Saudi Arabia at some point.
You'd lose every single thing you hold dear, your values, your achievements, your politics, your art, your music, your fine wines and spirits, your gay pride, your Jewish TV shows and movies, your Feminism....

My "There is no way that you can play the victim as well as some of OLO's leftist womyn who flip seemlessly between persecutor and victim."

should be,

"There is no way that you can play the victim as well as some of OLO's leftist womyn who flip SEAMLESSLY between persecutor and victim."

Ms Gillard certainly still claims to be victim of naivety. She is demanding an apology. Emily's listers certainly have the hide of a rhinosceros. How to be perpetually the victim no matter how disgusting the behaviour.

What of the two men accompanying Monis, and dressed like him, on his way to the cafe? I'm awaiting something to turn up on this, but nothing so far. He was in a relationship so I'm also awaiting something regarding the interrogation of his partner.

Understandably, this 'insane lone-wolf' narrative is authority grooming and calming the general population's response. The vast majority of Australian's are sensible enough not to see all Muslims as extremists, but also sensible enough to know we've just been jihaded by some who are.

The narrative relies heavily upon the actual event as evidence for insanity, but this was not a prior medical diagnosis. Some who encountered him did not find him to be deranged as much as intensely and tenaciously focused, demonstrable by his High Court challenge to the ruling on his poison letters, which opened flaws in our legal system and is discussed well here: https://theconversation.com/man-haron-moniss-poison-letters-split-the-high-court-and-laid-bare-a-flaw-in-the-system-35557
I would venture that medically, even after hypothetical conviction for his sexual misdemeanors and role in his wife's death, his sanity would not come into question. I would venture that an insanity plea on those charges would not be accepted by a court, whatever his prior form around town.

The insane lone-wolf narrative has no clothes. He was not insane, he was not alone.

At some point we will have to bite the bullet and look with complete honesty at this. We need moderate Muslims to have a formal commitment to rooting out the problem, and not just joining in outrage and hand-wringing with each atrocity, actual or thwarted. I think it should be now, while the iron is freshly hot and the sentiment is there.

seems like another 'lone wolf'shooting innocent police in new york.

Runner, don’t forget the guy recently killed in France, attacking the police while yelling AllahuAkbar, which translated into English from the Amish Dutch, means “I hate hawaiian bars” or something like that. It can’t be anything to do with the religion of peace. Yes, the New York killer was a Muslim and left a message quoting the Quran. How surprising.

The so-called sheik might be a fake, but he isn’t alone. The “I’ll ride with you” is exposed as the child of the imagination of a liberal, multiculturalist young woman who sees Australia as racist and violent.

That campaign was based upon a phoney, made up event, as follows: “Confession time. In my Facebook status, I editorialised. She wasn’t sitting next to me. She was a bit away, towards the other end of the carriage…. She might not even be Muslim or she could have just been warm!”
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/how-illridewithyou-began-with-rachael-jacobs-experience-on-a-brisbane-train-20141216-128205.html

So the whole episode was imagined to make Muslims seem to be victims of hate and racism was made up, and Australians to be violent racists, and this even before the real victims were buried.

Being true is less important than pushing the “standard narrative” that the West in general is full of evil people that persecute all non-Whites or something. This narrative is promoted by government, clergy, the media, academia and of course, by minorities particularly Muslims, as well as foolish people that buy into that narrative without reflecting on simple facts.

Reminds me of the Rigoberta Menchu hoax. When she was exposed was a liar, her supporters invented the idea of “narrative truth”, which means that although most of the facts in her story were false (not ‘historical truth’) those things maybe happened to someone else, or could have happened. The same with the false rape stories in the US last week. Any accusation against whites, or males or Western cultures must be true!!

Luc, I didn’t know about the two men, but the guy’s Facebook, with its hate and violence, had 63,000 “likes”. What does that say about Muslims or stupid Australians?

Kactuz, since when has the truth mattered to the Left?
Julia's Empowered Writing Seminar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXJS9YyhBqM

Julia Horowitz is an assistant managing editor at The Cavalier Daily, the University of Virginia’s student newspaper. She claims that - 'to let fact checking define the narrative would be a huge mistake

Thanks Jay,

I've got to use that: " ....'to let fact checking define the narrative would be a huge mistake."

Brilliant ! I've been typing up thousands of pages of old documents, Protector's letters, missionary's journal, reports, etc., in relation to Aboriginal policy in South Australia - what I found was that:

* there was only one full-time employee of the 'Aborigines Department' (in fact, from 1837 right through to the 1930s) - i.e. the Protector;

* that there was no 'herding of people onto Missions';

* that [big surprise for me!] there was no driving of people from their lands, quite the contrary, and

* that there was no removal of countless thousands of children from families.

Next time I'm in a discussion with a defender of all those myths, I'll try to be helpful and pass that one on :)

' .... 'to let fact checking define the narrative would be a huge mistake.' Story trumps facts. Ideology trumps reality. Beauty !

Joe

Another 'nutter' in France driving his car (probably bought on welfare) into 11 people while calling AllahuAkbar. Not enough money spent on mental health in France I take it.

My word Runner a man of the Bible does not preach love and forgiveness, thank goodness I am an Atheist where I do practise the above.
One must ask the question why is all this happening at present, do the Muslim community feel not wanted by the Western society, do the Muslim community want to control the world by devious means, does the Western society want to control the rich oil fields which Muslims control at present, does the Western society want to control the world by creating unrest in many parts of the world.
Australia is fast becoming a police controlled country, any demonstration will involve the complete arm of the law, what you may write here could be interpreted as sinister, we all are being watched, perhaps love and forgiveness no longer exists between human beings, do we care about the unemployed and poverty that is everywhere now, are we too believing in the lies told by the media and Governments which in turn creates hatred, that being what they want. There is much more unrest behind what people are doing, this will become worse as poverty spreads its wings, but do not worry you will be put in your place by the police and soldiers, so as you will be kept at the level of poverty where you belong.

Onjab, why have the Muslims been feuding and killing each other ever since Muhammad died? For nearly 1500 years they been at each other, do you really think that's all the influence of the evil West?

As expected http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/three-arrested-in-lakemba-brawl/story-e6frfku9-1227165159354
The government needs to pull the platform out from under these extremists, which strengthens with each atrocity (and expected atrocity, if that's what Abbott is trying to tell us today in his strange way).

Pretending we haven't been jihaded clearly hasn't worked. Accepting that we have, and opening negotiation over a formal pledge by (all) churches to upholding secular democracy by acting against followers who don't, is the only way to defuse the issue in Australia.

Perhaps the Christian churches wouldn't go with this notion? Runner?