This author is delusional! The numbers have now stopped and we have a mechanism to prevent them increasing again until the Labour idiots get back in. Then the labour lawyers and social workers will be back making the really big quid again.
Australia is doing it's bit in taking in refugees although I think our choice needs to be reduced. That is code for saying no more muslims of course. To bring in people who have not only nothing in common with us but are diametrically opposed to all we hold dear is plain stupid.
Toby should check out Europe. The refugees land in Italy but will move to where there is the best pay off i.e. Holland, UK and Germany. Europe could certainly learn from our foresight.

Toby is of course quite correct in highlighting the enormous expense involved in keeping out the illegal aliens. When you consider that machine gun bullets only cost 10 cents each, and a few bursts on a boat or two would stop the whole show dead, it is obvious that the government should look to cheaper ways to implement its excellent policy of preventing the illegals from entering the country.

I suppose the $10bn spent by Labor in 4 years (nearly 3x as much) shows that not only is the coalition policy saving lives, but costing the taxpayer a whole bundle less.

plerdsus: Toby is of course quite correct in highlighting the enormous expense involved in keeping out the illegal aliens.

SM: I suppose the $10bn spent by Labor in 4 years (nearly 3x as much) shows that not only is the coalition policy saving lives, but costing the taxpayer a whole bundle less.

Why is Australia involved in the Detention/Refugee Camp Business. It's not our responsibility. It is the responsibility of the UNCHR to provide for Refugees. The UNCHR should provide the Accommodation, Food, Medical & anything else to the UNCHR standards. Nothing to do with Australia until they have been granted a Visa.

JBowyer: To bring in people who have not only nothing in common with us but are diametrically opposed to all we hold dear is plain stupid. Europe could certainly learn from our foresight.

Well said. I agree.

"Stopping the boats is irrelevant!" If we are discussing the costs of processing asylum seekers then that has to be the most inane comment of all time.
Reducing the number of asylum seekers is the easiest and most effective way of reducing costs.
As for the security issues of having unprocessed applicants in the community, well just ask the British how that has worked out. They seemed to have lost hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers who have disappeared into the general community, probably never to be found.
And the "inhumane" conditions in processing camps offshore would be Utopia to those millions of refugees stranded in tent cities in the African deserts. Not to mention the conditions some Australian Aboriginals have to endure in remote areas.
We are currently experiencing the most efficient border controls we have had in many years. Naturally there are those who wish to destroy that.

Toby,
I suggest you carefully read the Koran.
It is the basis of a society with a basic building block of an alpha male dominated grouping-- similar to what is found in herds of kangaroos, cattle, wild goats, sheep, prides of lions etc.
It establishes a culture which cannot, and never, for long, has, existed, in peace,side by side with a society based on the nuclear family established by institutionalised monogamy.
An alpha male based society ( 4 wives and numerous non- muslim concubines (if finances extend that far) automatically involves numerous disadvantaged males without access to the civilising effect of women as equals or women at all other than through violence or up there in heaven, if you are silly enough to believe that life after death nonsense.

We are entitled to preserve our society against a belief system inconsistent with the progress of the human race.

Can you name on invention or innovation , from steam engine through
rockets to Mars, the internet, and computers which has been produced other than by a person brought to the maximum of their potential under the nuclear family culture ( not religion) inherent in the Judeo- Christian tradition ?

Toby time to grow up mate.

If these people ever were refugees they would be jumping for joy at being "saved".

To have someone give them safe haven, cater to their every need, & do it in a tropical paradise would be a dream to every genuine refugee on earth.

If you are too dumb to be able to see they totally invalidate their claim to be in fear of their life, when they bitch about being given safe haven, that is your problem, not ours.

Really time to open your eyes & take a look at the real world.

Oh but it does, if it means keeping intending Isil "operatives" (Men, women and boys) forever out of this country!
One recalls however, the men who brought down the twin towers, arrived by air, with impeccable paper work; were clean shaven, suit wearing, smiling affable men, and butter wouldn't melt in their mouths.
That said, we should have thermal imaging cameras at all entry points, as the most credible assisted means, to arrive at the real facts, as opposed to some of the fairy tales, we are asked to accept from intending refugees/asylum seekers/criminal gang members/war criminals?
When people tell porkies, even lie detector beating psychopaths, certain areas of the brain always light up! ALWAYS!
And if you include CAFR, formerly undetectable, tiny little micro facial movements, also inform about credibility; and therefore, ought to also be included.
And given a very high failure rate, automatic repatriation! No if buts or maybes!
Which by the way, just has to be vastly less costly, than housing many many sometimes very disingenuous people, for multiple years, as our virtual, if entirely uninvited guests.
I don't like my very own rallies arriving uninvited, let alone complete strangers, with mouths chock full of clever invention!
That said, the real and inherent problem here, I believe, seems to be an extremely recalcitrant and very power hungry/blame shifting minister?
Rhrosty.

Old Man,

Without the concept of ZERO, which is apparently Hindu in origin, none of the achievements that you mention would have been attainable; I'll grant you steam engines and boilers 'cause they're simple but the other things require some mathematics.

The off-shore processing of refugees and denying them refuge is expensive, inhumane and contrary to our international obligations under the refugee convention.

We say we are cruel because we want to stop deaths at sea. Why did a coroner's report into the SEIV 358, where over 100 people drowned, find authorities failed to respond to the many calls for help. Why didn't we immediately go to their aid?

What do we know about these tropical utopia's we send them to? Not much as they are veiled in secrecy. We know they are places where a healthy young man can die from a simple cut to the foot. Where men can be killed and shot and stabbed and can not be guaranteed it will not happen again. We know that there are shortages of clean water. We know children aren't being educated. We know a 3 y o child had epileptic seizures when her medication was confiscated. Reports of women being asked for sexual favours to gain access to showers which are limited due to water shortages. People including children making suicide attempts. People being referred to by number, not name. There is more, but those are instances I can remember off the top of my head. To say they are living in a paradise seems a bit far fetched. Even if they were shacked up at a 5 star hotel, they would still not be free and still have no certainty about their future - which is a form of cruelty most of us could not bear without going insane.

We have reports of Tamil refugees who have been tortured on their return to Sri Lanka - Nails removed, beatings, electric shocks.

We know refugees have burnt themselves alive rather than be deported.

We are a nation, built on supposedly Christian values. We have a duty to assess these people and if they are fleeing persecution, we should let them in and allow them to start living their lives again in peace. To return them to their persecutors is beyond awful - it is a disgrace.

Dear BJelly,

Some of what you wrote is touching and I agree.

We are certainly responsible for our cruel actions and should be ashamed.

But we should not be responsible for the acts of nature.

If people choose to sail the oceans in un-seaworthy boats, then it's not our responsibility if they drown.

I also do not agree that "We are a nation"; that we as a group have any active duty towards others; or that government had a right in the first place to take up obligations in our name. But while governments are not obliged to do anything, no government has a right to prevent those of us who are Christians from helping refugees in our individual capacity or within voluntary groups (including churches).

This whole problem stems from the government's obsession with "sovereignty". Earth has only one sovereign - which is God!

Hi Yuyustu

"we should not be responsible for the acts of nature."
Do you take precautions in case of floods or storms? Would you call the SES for help if your house was damaged? If they thought like you they would not volunteer, after all they have families they could be protecting rather than going out in the wind and rain to help complete strangers.

"If people choose to sail the oceans in un-seaworthy boats, then it's not our responsibility if they drown."
It is if we know they are in trouble and do nothing to help them - maybe it is just me, but it seems kind of mean to choose to ignore people's cries for help when they are drowning when we are able to save them. We do this for all sorts of people more foolish than asylum seekers - there are lots of people who get into trouble at sea and there is a legal duty to save them. To do otherwise is simply barbaric.

"I also do not agree that "We are a nation"; that we as a group have any active duty towards others; or that government had a right in the first place to take up obligations in our name."

Wow that is harsh! Do you ever need to call on police, firies or ambos? I presume you pay taxes so you deserve the care and concern of public servants and others who will come to your aid if ever you need it. I think we are more than individuals, we are communal, and we choose to live in groups, and because of technology we can live in very large groups called nation-states. We can act individually, but sometimes we need to act as a group or nation to get things done.

I think that everyone is precious. We should do everything in our power to save lives - even those of strangers.

Yuyustu

"we should not be responsible for the acts of nature" Thus there is no need for the government to enforce seatbelts in cars, supervise planning to prevent floods etc

Of course the government needs to take action to prevent people drowning. It has done so spectacularly.

Toby,
I suggest you carefully look into history.
Granted this is a cut and paste but let us start by the name of our mathematics, "arabic"
Algebra (from Arabic al-jebr meaning "reunion of broken parts"[1]) is one of the broad parts of mathematics, together with number theory, geometry and analysis. In its most general form algebra is the study of symbols and the rules for manipulating symbols and is a unifying thread of all of mathematics. As such, it includes everything from elementary equation solving to the study of abstractions such as groups, rings, and fields. The more basic parts of algebra are called elementary algebra, the more abstract parts are called abstract algebra or modern algebra. Elementary algebra is essential for any study of mathematics, science, or engineering, as well as such applications as medicine and economics. Abstract algebra is a major area in advanced mathematics, studied primarily by professional mathematicians. Much early work in algebra, as the Arabic origin of its name suggests, was done in the Near East, by such mathematicians as Omar Khayyam (1048-1131).
The roots of Islamic science drew primarily upon Arab, Persian, Indian and Greek learning. The extent of Islamic scientific achievement is not as yet fully understood, but it is extremely vast.
These achievements encompass a wide range of subject areas; most notably
Mathematics
Astronomy
Medicine
Other notable areas, and specialized subjects, of scientific inquiry include
Physics
Alchemy and chemistry
Cosmology
Ophthalmology
Geography and cartography
Sociology
Psychology
It is a pity they could not get their theocracy under control as their existence and preservation of knowledge did more to get the western world moving in the direction of reason and scientific advancement then did the cutthroats that ran the christian churches. you would have to read some pretty fat books and have an attitude that is not based on race or nationality but on achievement before you would notice that.

The Arab Golden Period was from 1000 to 1300 from there it's been all down hill. The Mullars took over around 1300 & discouraged all learning. They also had a book burning. The period of Destruction seems to happen around 300 years after the start of a new movement. It also seems to last around 1000 year so Islam has a few years to go before their enlightenment. They initially built on the knowledge of the Greeks & Romans for most things, but Algebra comes from India.

While they are in their most dangerous period they should be shunned by the rest of Humanity, including us. Any Islamists in the West Must be returned to the Middle East, for Humanities safety.

Dear Bjelly,

There is absolutely nothing wrong if you, in combination with others that share your beliefs, form a life-saving force to help people in distress - in fact, God bless you for that. However, you are not obliged to do it and the fact that though not obliged you do it anyway, allows the goodness of your heart to shine!

If OTOH you only save others because that is the law, then you are not a good person, but a common coward.

You are most welcome to save the lives of strangers, but you better do it wisely and in this particular case you should ask yourself whether this particular line-of-action of patrolling near the shores of Indonesia indeed saves lives - or causes even more deaths by drowning: had the refugees known that nobody is going to rescue them, then they wouldn't go out to sea in the first place in leaky boats, so more lives would be saved, as well as preventing the horrors that are now occurring in offshore detention.

The nation-state is illegitimate because it is a non-voluntary body. Yes, humans are communal, but it should be our own choice as to which community(s), big or small, we wish to belong to. It is wrong to force us to be members of a particular community for no other reason than we happen to live in a particular location. Even if I happen to generally favour the community around me, it would be immoral for me to participate or cooperate with it so long as I know that it forces itself on others against their will.

Dear SM,

The government has every right to say: "Look, if you don't wear a seatbelt, then you won't receive free medical assistance if you are injured in a road-accident" and "If you build your house too close to the river, then don't expect us to come and help if it's flooded". What it has absolutely no right, is to lock you up in jail should you choose to ignore their advice.

Toby O'Brian has written a dishonest article in which he justifies his humanitarian ideals in terms of economics, which he knows to be false. If you present an argument which any impartial observer can see is dishonest, Toby, you destroy your credibility straight away.

You know that the costs of keeping illegal immigrants on Pacific islands is far less than having the entire third world arrive on Australia's doorstep and demand directions to the closest Centrelink office. But for some reason, you pretend otherwise. You reject the idea that your first allegiance is supposed to be towards the welfare of your own people.

Whenever somebody writes a deliberately false argument, then I presume that they have other agendas, usually their own self interest.

Who's people do you identify with, Toby, and what is your self interest?

With an Irish name, perhaps you don't see yourself as an Australian anyway and have no allegiance to Australia and it's people? Perhaps you see yourself more as a Catholic? Is your first allegiance to your religion? Do you see going into bat for generally superstitious third worlder's as a way of getting converts to your paedophile protecting religion? Perhaps you think you will make it into heaven if you stick up for third worlder's? Perhaps you are a lawyer touting for business? A Labor politician seeking the ethnic vote? A trendy lefty displaying his presumed moral superiority over the detested bogans and bourgiouse?

Whatever. But if you refuse to acknowledge the damage to your own community that would ensue from the unrestricted immigration of millions of impoverished third worlder's, then your motive seems suspect. You seem to be a person who put his religions self interest, his afterlife's self interest, his party's self interest, his professions self interest, or his his self esteem, over that of the collective welfare of the Australian people.

Dear LEGO,

<<having the entire third world arrive on Australia's doorstep and demand directions to the closest Centrelink office>>

The author never mentioned that option, nor would I.

Who said that not being physically stopped from reaching the physical shores of the continent Australia is equivalent to being accepted into the Australian society and all its benefits?

Alternately, they could all come if they want, but be treated as animals, roaming the outback, either making a frugal subsistence or dying of hunger and thirst; or good people of Australia could give them food and shelter - not the taxpayer, perhaps O'brien himself; perhaps people would adopt them as pets; or they could perhaps be used as farm-animals, given food and shelter for a day's hard-labour, then slaughtered and eaten when they can no longer work.

Under these conditions, plus the risk of drowning during the long ocean-journey, it's unlikely that the entire third world would still want to come.

The problem is not the refugees - the problem is that Australia have signed all these stupid international treaties which prevent it from acting either rationally or humanely. It is both irrational and inhumane to treat people worse than animals: at least treat them like you would treat an animal.

Hi Yuyutsu.

I could not make head nor tail of your last post. I think you were speaking tongue in cheek, but I never know with you. Every time I get into a discussion with you, you always try to turn the discussion into one about "spirituality", or something.

I don't believe in God's, ghosts, angels, fairies, Santa Claus, leprechauns, banshees, saints, son's of God's, mothers of Gods, brother-in laws of Gods, cousins of Gods, or anything else. If you wish to pray to the telegraph pole that sits on my street corner because you think it will somehow give you eternal life, please go right ahead. But don't that lay that superstitious crap on me. I am just not interested.

Walk down to the beach. Pick up a handful of sand. Pick out one grain of sand and put it between two of your fingers. A grain of sand is probably the smallest thing that you can see or feel. The Earth to the universe, equates to that grain of sand to every grain of sand that exists on planet Earth. I don't think some big daddy created every grain of sand on Earth out of nothing, just so he could judge the the virtues and sins of billions of microscopic life forms that exist on that one grain of sand.

Dear LEGO,

Actually, all I wrote in my last post is that refugees should not be treated worse than animals.

(yes, I could have provided a spiritual rationale to justify this idea, but I avoided it to save you the trouble, considering it unnecessary, especially if you agree with my statement anyway for your own reasons, whatever they are)

So do you or do you not agree that we should treat human refugees who aim for Australia at least as well as we treat animals?

moslems human? I didn't know that.

Legitimate refugees are running from
tribal, territorial, warfare.

They are being driven off and from their land
and dispossed of territory they need for survival.
This renders them impoverished and in danger of extinction.

In light of the above facts do we want to set the
stage for the same ethnic cleansing and civil wars
here, by bringing in so many opposing tribes.

100 million new human beings are being added to the total human population of planet Earth every year and almost all of that increase comes from dysfunctional third world countries which are becoming more dysfunctional as their populations increase. I am sorry that most humans have not figured out what the north European protestant people have figured out, that ever increasing populations will eventually destroy our planet and perhaps even human civilisation through war, pestilence and plague. If not for immigration and 'refugees", all North European Protestant countries would have negative population growths.

I think that the people who can not get their populations under control, because their religion or cultural values forbid it, should stay in their own counties and breed until the penny drops. Not just say "we want to live with those smart white people" and come here whether we want them to or not. Especially since too many of them become crime, welfare and terrorism problems for us.

What exactly is a refugee? Only last week, my local newspaper reported that one of 10,000 "immigration consultants" had been closed down and prosecuted for advising potential immigrants to claim that they were homosexuals facing persection, or if they were Muslims, claim that they were Christians from an Islamic country facing persecution. What the other 9,999 ones are telling their clients, God only knows.

Get it through your head that the entire third world, all 4.5 billion of them, can claim that they are "refugees" of one sort or another and they way our laws are written, the onus is on us to prove they are not. That costs around 1 million a person to investigate their claims. No wonder the public service likes "refugees", they are a cash cow for the public service. Simply transferring the over population problem with all of it's baggage of dysfuntionality from the third world to my country is not going to solve the problem. But it sure as hell is going to destroy my society.

"....efugees should not be treated worse than animals."

Does that mean that they can be treated the same as animals?

The same as animals that are a feral pest?

Dear Is Mise,

<<The same as animals that are a feral pest?>>

Those who actually behave like feral pests can be treated like feral pests. Most however do not and you may not automatically assume that everyone is a feral pest only because they arrive by boat without a visa - even more so when there are Australians who are happy and capable to take them as pets or as livestock and be responsible to ensure that they do no harm to the community.

Feral pests are not locked up and tortured. Every precaution is taken to ensure that they die as quickly and painlessly as possible, according to the best practices of the RSPCA.

(note however, that at this particular time it is justified to lock boat-arrivals up for 21 days in quarantine, minus the time they've already been isolated at sea, in order to protect the community from Ebola: this however applies just as well to people arriving by plane with a visa)

Regardless, even when people behave like feral pests, when possible I would try humane options first, such as giving them boats to continue their journey elsewhere.

The best way to control feral pests is to prevent life forms known to create environmental mayhem and social problems from to getting into Australia.

Yuyutsu wants to live forever, and she thinks that being nice to anybody who wants to barge into Australia will get her brownie points with some Big Daddy in Heaven. Who cares what problems it causes Australia? This life is only a veil of teas where the virtuous are separated from the philistines. It will be pie in the sky when Yuyutsu dies.

I hope you don't end up in the Muslim heaven, Yuyutsu. The US Marines have killed off so many Jihadis that Allah is running out of virgins. He might have a job for you in heaven that will last he next thousand million, billion, trillion, skillion, quadrillion years that you may find rather distasteful.

Dear LEGO,

<<and she thinks that being nice to anybody who wants to barge into Australia will get her brownie points>>

You call treating someone like an animal "being nice"? How would you like being treated like that yourself?

<<I hope you don't end up in the Muslim heaven, Yuyutsu.>>

Thank you, LEGO, much appreciated!

In fact, I do not wish to end up in any heaven - for my view of heaven, see http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15820#274189

>>> "Isn't heaven nothing but a larger-scale temptation and isn't hell nothing but a larger-scale place of purification? Then shouldn't we all say that hell is better than heaven?!" <<<

I have, Yuyutsu.

My mother and I waited 6 years for a Housing Commision flat after being assessed as "most in need". The HC assessor found us living in a room rented from pensioners, and I as an 11 year old boy slept in the same single bed as my mother. And yes, I know what it is like to be bitten by bedbugs. We moved into a Housing Commission flat with a total ownership of one TV set, a folding card table, and an ironing board.

We slept on the concrete floor rolled up in blankets.

The couple across the landing from us was a British couple which had immigrated from Britain that was quite well off. They had waited two years for a Housing Commision flat.

I will never forget my mother's face when she found that out and she said "The damned government thinks more about foreigners than they do their own people!" And that is the charge I level at you, Yuyutsu. You have compassion for everybody but your own people. As far as I am concerned, in Australia, Australians come first.

While ever we have deserving poor in this country who have it in them to stand on their own feet with a little help, then they should be at the head of the queue. You will be happy to know that there was a happy ending. My mother was an usherette, a waitress in milk bars, a cook on remote sheep stations (where she was treated like dirt), and a machinist in a clothing factory making costumes for TV shows. She was so smart and she worked so hard that she eventually became an executive (wardrobe Mistress) for Channel 10.

It taught me that poverty and a lack of brains are linked. Smart people who through misfortune may find themselves at the bottom of society, but who work hard, are upwardly mobile. Dumb people are poor mostly because they are dumb and lazy. Everything I saw about my fellow tenants in my Housing commission complex of 84 units confirmed that premise.

Dear LEGO,

Thank you for your life story.

However, this is not relevant to what I wrote, because I made it clear that those who arrive by boat without a visa should not be accepted into Australian society, which includes that they will not receive any public housing or other public assistance. You had four walls, a concrete floor and blankets - they wouldn't even have this (unless good people donate to them of their own) and they could well freeze to death in the cold of desert nights in the outback. You had bedbugs and they could well have spiders and snakes and dingoes, not to mention mosquitoes and whatever else crawls and flies in there. Yet, you are cruel enough to deny them even that, which costs you nothing.

LEGO: We moved into a Housing Commission flat with a total ownership of one TV set, a folding card table, and an ironing board.

Sounds like when I got married. We moved into a flat, Fridge & stove. Luckily I used my Army Camp stretcher & a borrowed one, some blankets & sheets borrowed from the Q Store. No TV or Radio. We lived like that for a month until I came off leave.

Don't whinge to me mate, sounds like you had it good.

Most people when they moved into a new house didn't have lawns, tables & chairs, curtains, cupboards or a fridge. New houses did come with a stove though in the 60's. Just think, three bedrooms & bathroom, one toilet down the back. No garage for the car, most people didn't have a car anyway.

You, You got a Council Flat?, Luxury, luxury. We 'ad 'ole in road. Apologies to Monty.

Wrong, Yuyutsu.

"The Australian" newspapaer reported that the Australian government had purchased 746 houses within Australia and had used them to house some of the 40,000 "refugees" that poured into Australia under the incompetent Rudd Labor government. They had also given these queue jumpers $15,000 dollars per family to purchase furniture and electronic equipment like microwave ovens and washing machines.

What my mother and I experienced is being repeated again with this new wave of foreign imports. The damned government, and people like you, Jayb, and Toby O'Brian, think more about foreigners than you do your own people. As an Australian who's grandfather was wounded at Gallipoli and then wounded again at Beersheeba, and who's father fought in Greece, Crete and Syria during world war 2, who uncles were in Bomber command or who were Tobruk rats, I am incensed that Australians who's families fought for this country are given the rough end of the pineapple every time by people like yourself.

We now have the totally absurd situation of the sons of "refugees" in Australia going back to the very lands they claim they escaped from to fight for the very people they claimed had oppressed their families, or engaging in very serious violent crime against the very society that gave them succour.

Get it through your impervious mind that almost everybody is loyal to their own race, culture and religion. To allow in people from hostile cultures with diametrically opposed values to our own, is to destroy the very society you live in. But you support this idea because you want to go to heaven and you think that being nice to everybody will get you a ticket. Jayb and Tony O'Bian probably think that supporting foreigners over their own people's welfare is some sort of fashion statement that marks them indelibly with the stamp of the oh, so ferking smart intellectual. All of you are selling out your own people for your own self interest. There is a very unpleasant noun used in the English language for people who do that sort of thing.

Dear LEGO,

<<Wrong, Yuyutsu.>>

Yes, but what is wrong is not what I am proposing here, that refugees should have the same privileges as animals: what was wrong was that the Australian government of the time gave those refugees housing and furniture at the tax-payer's expense, choosing to be nice to a foreign organisation, the "United Nations". It was not within my power to stop them, nor did I even knew about it. Apparently a majority of Australians voted for them, so apparently a majority of Australians were effectively pissing over the memory of your grandfather... Perhaps as you recollect that, you may want to reconsider your loyalty to these people, whether these still are 'your own people', whether you still want to be called 'Australian'.

At no time did I state that I support Foreigners before Australians. Calm down, you down. You'll do a pooffle valve. Have a snickers, you're not you when you're angry.