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The Forum > Article Comments > Men in trouble > Comments

Men in trouble : Comments

By Andee Jones, published 24/10/2014

It isn't just the Barry Spurrs of the world. The male of the species is in deep trouble and he doesn't seem to have the foggiest notion why.

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Lillian:
“Using ostracism to enforce cultural norms is not a minor matter. Humans are social animals and exclusion is extremely painful and, in some situations, can be fatal.”

Once again it escapes me how this relates to the comment I made which provoked it.
It’s an interesting topic, however, and I suspect I have a greater appreciation of the implications than you do. When I initially observed that “we are social animals,” above, I was pondering greater implications than you seem to appreciate. To begin with, here was the great lesson Marx failed to learn from Hegel, that his mythical proletariat was never going to spontaneously renounce its cultural identity, which goes deeper than ideology. Marx’s historical dialectic could only be sustained by a true populist uprising, confirmed in its commitment by gross and ongoing injustice—and not via an “awakening”. Capitalism proved just too agile and made sufficient concessions, post war, to put down the bulk of dissent. The demand for equality was bought off by the illusion of democracy. Democracy is the way the game’s played, but the decks are stacked and it’s democratic in name only.
What’s worse is the powers that be are now much wiser and realise the masses are no threat so long as a minimum standard, or rather a minimum percentage of the population, is maintained. In any case, any grumbling is quieted by the “manufacture of mass consent”. Ideology is a more sophisticated technology now than it’s ever been. So while I appreciate your concern at my pariah status—though I have no thoughts of suicide—I celebrate it. The worry is not that we are bereft without our peers and institutions, but that we are so dependent! Rather than confirming our social dependency, you should be mocking it. Our obsequiousness makes us incapable of reacting spontaneously; not to contingency, but to the ills generated and made invisible by the institutions we cleave to.
Posted by Squeers, Sunday, 2 November 2014 10:03:45 PM
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Poirot

‘Lost somewhere in the machinations of a masculine system, where women are required to reinvent themselves in male guise to be heard.’

Yes, but in the current system, what else can they really do? After millennia of being kept ‘barefoot and pregnant’, how can women turn around and create a female counterpoint to the Security Council, the General Assembly, the IMF, the World Bank, the Pentagon, Lockheed Martin etc?

Often you do have to work within the system to change the system. The women who become politicians and bankers and business movers and shakers are predisposed by personality and values to that kind of professional orientation. If they walk the walk, talk the talk and dress the dress, that’s because it’s required of anyone who enters those walks of life. Otherwise, they don’t remain there for long.

If you’ve got any concrete suggestions as to how women/feminists can overcome this ‘hypocrisy’, other than the work they are already doing, I’d be interested to know.

‘(I'll just add that I'm always entertained by your wit and eloquence on this forum - keep up the good work:)’

Yes, I always enjoy your posts, too, even when I don’t always agree with you. I’m happy to consider you a 'forum friend’.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 3 November 2014 4:26:58 AM
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squeers

'Our feminists are apparently happy for this global "violence" to go on, so long as they get their share.'

Oh, come one, squeers. That's not fair. (See my post to Poirot for further explanation.)

We live in a violent, capitalist, imperialist, male-centric, hegemonic system that is not going to change anytime soon. What are feminists supposed to do - go off and form some kind of pacifist, egalitarian, utopian commune? A lot of good that will do.

I exaggerate to make a point. But surely you get my drift.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 3 November 2014 4:44:17 AM
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Lillian

Re your comments about King Amanullah of Afghanistan, there are numerous historical examples of rulers and thinkers in those nations we now despise as misogynist (including Egypt, Turkey and Libya), who believed that women's rights were essential to an enlightened and functional society. In 17th century Vietnam, the Le dynasty introduced extensive reforms that ensured the rights of women and minorities, reforms that fell apart under later 'advanced' French colonialist rule.

The idea that enlightened democratic principles only apply to modern Western states is uninformed and misguided. History is full of attempts to defy male hegemony, but powerful global powers have a way of overturning them. Sure, imperialism banned some grotesque misogynist practices like 'Sati' (widows burning themselves alive on their husband's funeral pyre), but it also ensured that men dominated the societies it occupied and controlled.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 3 November 2014 5:16:22 AM
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Killarney,
in democracies women have the voting power to change the system overnight. your position does the opposite. Striving for equality within the system only bolsters it. The system is not going to change any time soon, but that's no reason to legitimise it. If feminists are going to invoke grand narratives like patriarchy, they need to theorise viable alternatives, otherwise they go the same way as other 'progressive' movements and are thrown a bone for their compliance--while the select few join the high table with the male elites.
Posted by Squeers, Monday, 3 November 2014 7:38:25 AM
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Hi Killarney,

"Often you do have to work within the system to change the system. The women who become politicians and bankers and business movers and shakers are predisposed by personality and values to that kind of professional orientation. If they walk the walk, talk the talk and dress the dress, that’s because it’s required of anyone who enters those walks of life. Otherwise, they don’t remain there for long."

Yes, but they're not really changing the system, are they.

They are perpetuating it.

"If you’ve got any concrete suggestions as to how women/feminists can overcome this ‘hypocrisy’, other than the work they are already doing, I’d be interested to know."

Well, this is where feminists have to step up and go the extra mile. If they are required to don the mask of the system, accommodate it, get inside it, etc, one would hope that by now they would have some concrete (and realistic) ideas of how to go about reshaping it - not just rendering routine maintenance to the contours it already has.

I have my doubts as to whether that's an attainable reality. As we've covered, the species is entwined and it marches on as one. However, constantly complaining about patriarchy when it's being perpetuated by a system embraced by feminists seems futile.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 3 November 2014 8:48:06 AM
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