The Kuala Lumpur Wars Crimes Tribumal found Bush, Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld guilty of wars crimes in 2012.They now have to be careful which countries they travel or risk jail. American exceptionalism is coming to an end.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/kuala-lumpur-war-crimes-tribunal-bush-convicted-in-absentia-it-s-official-george-w-bush-is-a-war-criminal/30839

John Howard recently said that the intelligence he got on Iraq was flawed. Could that not be said about most of the intelligence we get to justify these wars ? Howard is looking very worried.

Our elite oligarchs are getting desperate. The hegemony of US $ is the one thing that props up this power, the other is the war machine. Russia and China could easily destroy the US $ but is will eventual collapse under the weight of its own money printing.

Our leaders need more censorship to cover up their crimes and thus we see reduction of our personal freedoms under the ruse of saving us from the terrorists.

"Our leaders need more censorship to cover up their crimes and thus we see reduction of our personal freedoms under the ruse of saving us from the terrorists."

Assuming you mean our Australian leaders, since you don't recognise the validity of the USA, what exactly are those crimes? Perhaps the censorship is to help the security forces do their job without the media telegraphing every move before they make it.

Do you not agree that the Muslim kid who paraded through a shopping mall with an ISIS flag and who later tried to kill to policemen was a terrorist or at least 'the enemy within'?

Who's side are you on? Please don't give us some lame anarchist drivel as a reply.

" Perhaps the censorship is to help the security forces do their job without the media telegraphing every move before they make it."

Yup....I'm sure they held the same view in the GDR....pesky free media - who needs it!

Love this - "Who's side are you on?"

How about open and free democracy (or at least what we "had" that approached it)

"National security gags on media force us to trust state will do no wrong"

http://theconversation.com/national-security-gags-on-media-force-us-to-trust-state-will-do-no-wrong-32103

"The relevant law emerges from the National Security Legislation Amendment Bill (No.1) 2014. This amends the ASIO Act 1979 by adding a new section 35P (amongst others) to extend existing state and federal prohibitions on the disclosure of information regarding policing for anti-terrorist purposes.

The amendment imposes substantial jail terms (five years) for anyone who discloses information relating to a “special intelligence operation” (SIO). That penalty doubles if there is evidence that the disclosure would endanger the health or safety of any person or prejudice the effective conduct of an SIO. The Senate accepted a Palmer United Party amendment that means anyone who publicly names an ASIO agent could be jailed for up to a decade, a ten-fold increase in the existing penalty.

There is no “public interest” defence. There is no defence that a journalist was not aware that an SIO was even in progress."

"What is different about the latest legislation is that the silence “blanket” now applies across Australia without the need for a court order."

"History of abuses makes case for transparency"

"One could simply trust governments to do their job, and tell naysayers to desist. But we need to remember that, when officials are confident that they are not under scrutiny, it is not unfair (nor un-Australian) to suspect that some will exercise their power inappropriately. And to determine whether that has occurred we need transparency, not a wall of silence.

Governmental zeal, however justified by the pressures of the day, must be kept in check by the curiosity of a free press."

Which side am I on? I'm on the side of those who believe that humans can be better than a rabble of warring, brutal, greedy barbarians and killers.

Yeah, look I admit it! I don't applaud the nations of the world that make weapons of war and engage in war as if it was no more than a game.

I don't applaud the U.S., Britain, Australia, and France and I don't applaud the war-like Muslims either except when they fight against Western Imperialism!

War is a sickness which afflicts the human race although some racial groups are more affected by it than others. Americans seem to be genetically programmed to love war and killing and themselves, and tell themselves they are 'exceptional' as if that excuses their barbaric behavior over centuries.

The world has been commandeered by a barbaric horde centred in Washington. They have succeeded in convincing most people in the world that war is necessary. For them it is because it fills their Capitalist Coffers and those of their Capitalist Allies.

The world is approaching a tipping point, one that involves nuclear war. The U.S. will use nukes if it feels that such a move will ensure its complete military and economic domination of the world. Such is its madness!

That's why I'm on the side of peace and I hate the warmongers with a passion especially those who pretend to be standing up for human rights while, surreptitiously, they takeover the world.

Don't worry Binoy, the general public will know pretty soon, when ASIO come to get dissidents like you, & lock you up.

Actually what we will know, when they don't bother with noisy dissidents like you, but continue to let you waffle on with your deluded garbage, is that even minor little twits are quite safe mouthing their inane rubbish.

Obviously you don't believe your own propaganda, or you would not be broadcasting it so widely, for fear of the response you claim.

the further a society goes from truth the more repulsive it becomes to it. Binoy and his abc luvvies are in denial at best.

Hasbeen,

"Don't worry Binoy, the general public will know pretty soon, when ASIO come to get dissidents like you, & lock you up."

Lol!...in favour of Stasi-like measures are you?

(I'm sure the moderator doesn't approve of posters belligerently denigrating article contributors - what do you reckon, Hasbeen?)

Sorry Poirot, I'm one of those unfortunate people who can't see bull droppings. I see straight through it, & call it for what it is.

Perhaps that is why we disagree on most things.

Hasbeen I think you are using the wrong protocol to communicate
anything to Poirot.

My goodness there is some rubbish being promulgated here !
If you want to hide don't stand in an open flat paddock.
Go into a thick forest where the wood cannot be seen for the trees.

It seems to me that most of those carrying on about big brother looking
for their xmas emails to granny just have no idea what they are waffling about.
These data bases are so huge that to find anything you have to know what you are looking for.

Even if you go looking for "bomb" you might well get 100,000s of hits.
I will bet quids that those who are complaining today will carry on about how incompetent
the security people are if a bomb went off on their train or plane.
"Look they missed the bomb !"

This important thread (after the first few comments) has been highjacked by a group of loonies who should be banned from OLO!

OLO has the potential to become a premier forum but, alas, all too often, the loonies rule!

DavidG, the stupid comments you often see are often from paid trolls who surf the net excreting dis-information and ad hominem. Best to ignore them.

I've heard this from two sources. Apparently Germany and France have boots on the ground in the Ukraine fighting the present Ukrainian Govt ie siding with the Russian rebels. Germany has 3000 businesses trading with Russia and Europe does not want to go to the economic toilet to save the USA. If this is true, NATO is finished and US hegemony is coming to an end.

In my not so humble opinion Scot Ludlum and the Greens have done more to take away the personal responsibility and human rights of Australians than anybody else. Seeing his quote at the top of this article is food for apoplexy. As for the main article, it is mostly undiluted rubbish. We are in a war and survival is more important than being politically correct in a nanny state with no real future. Biony would most likely find a great deal of difficulty publishing his views if he were employed by a university in an Islamic nation.

Hello everyone,
Arjay - I heard somewhere that Germany wants to join BRICS

I for one don't like being treated like a criminal and this is precisely how these laws treat all of us - as potential criminals. At the same time as the government wants to know all what we are doing, they are becoming more secretive about what they do.

These new laws will allow ASIO to spy on all of us, but with minimal oversight, and journalists will be reluctant to report potential wrongdoing as the government refused to include the "public interest" as a defense.

Do not fall for the line that "If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide" This is naive in the extreme. Does no one remember the open letters of brave Israeli military who refused to spy on non-terror suspects in Palestine? They reported that private information such as health issues, financial issues, infidelity etc were used to blackmail individuals to become informers etc.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/israeli-intelligence-reservists-refuse-serve-palestinian-territories

Note that even the Israelis who have experienced far more terrorism than we have, do not allow blanket surveillance of their citizens.

We have laws to punish those who would do us harm. Our security agencies must be able to investigate suspects, but not at the expense of the freedoms our forebears fought and died for.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. These surveillance powers do not belong in a free and democratic society.

"...We are in a war and survival is more important than being politically correct in a nanny state with no real future..."

No we're bloody not...we are sticking our bibs in to assist the US in the MIddle-East - and Abbott has used (and blown out of all proportion) the threat to this country domestically by terrorism.

With the aid of the media (who appear to have shot themselves in the foot on this one) we're being somehow led to believe the ISIL insurgency is somehow equivalent to WWII - and we're all in mortal danger.

Shifty govts often use such confected threat to dilute the freedoms of its citizens. They rely on panicking the populace, and the simple but gullible belief of the people that their govt will act in their best interests.

Most govts will.

Some govts don't.

Do you reckon this new Mspy surveillance product, for the whole family and your employer, should be legal or illegal?

Summarised here http://youtu.be/SWEAY41EPQs

Capabilities are:

"Mspy is an absolutely undetectable and user-friendly tablet and mobile phone tracking software solution that allows you to access the target device's text messages, call history, e-mails, GPS location and more from any web browser. mSpy comes with a cross-platform functionality that allows the software to run on different types of devices such as Android, iPhone, BlackBerry, Symbian and Windows Mobile.

The software allows the user to execute the following operations:

• Track all SMS
• Record calls
• Track emails
• Monitor all Skype conversations
• Track WhatsApp
• Monitor GPS locations
• Record browsing history
• Access the Address Book
• Access all multimedia files
• Remotely record conversations around the target device
• View call history
• .. and much more"

Maybe new security or privacy legislation should ban its commercial use in Australia?

Archair, welcome to the site. At least some people have the courage to speak the truth. It is indeed strange that we will have more oppressive laws than Israel when we have such a peaceful country

Yes I've heard from several including James Rickards that Germany is siding with the BRICS. This will be a big game changer if it comes to full realisation. The BRICS is made up of over 100 countries and now have their own Development Bank which eventually will back its currency with gold. China is thought to have 4500 tons of gold and Russia about 2000 tons. Many doubt the USA has any.We have almost none, yet are the 3rd largest producer on the planet.

Our pollies just do as they are told and roll over on command. This legislation will be rubber stamped by Labor in the Senate.

The Western psychopathic Oligarchs are in panic mode and this makes them very dangerous,both to us and themselves. War is now their only tool of winning as our economies have been destroyed by money printing and derivative gambling.

Such programs as mSpy have been around for yonks.
What do you think hackers have been up to all this time.
If you are so worried about this and a multitude of such
programs change to Linux and be done with it !

I must find my Guy Faukes mask !

David G, gee are you volunteering to commit suicide along
with other loonies ?

Hello everyone,
Thanks for the welcome Arjay.
I think I know more about global geopolitical issues and things in the US than I do about what goes on here.
Watching too much http://www.infowars.com/ will do that even though I dont always agree with everything Alex Jones says.
He only takes you so far and I wanted an Australian perspective which is why I joined this site.
I also like the John B. Wells program called Caravan to Midnight.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=caravan+to+midnight
Yes war is the US's only tool of winning now, but I'm not sure they are even trying to do that anymore.
I don't know how poking the Russian bear with a stick will help the Military Industrial Complex if it comes to a nuclear war.
And from what I understand the globalists are planning to implode the US economy in a controlled collapse under the Cloward and Piven strategy.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=obamas+cloward+and+piven+strategy
Hi Bazz,
I need a Guy Faulks mask myself. Lol.
If you think mSpy is bad then you should look up the NSA's PRISM which Ed Snowden revealed.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=prism+nsa
In regards to your comment to David G. I want to say something.
QUOTE>>David G, gee are you volunteering to commit suicide along with other loonies ?<<
Im not sure if you thought David went to far in one of his comments and made himself a target.
I know I did with my very first post yesterday saying the US is a terrorist organisation by its own definition because it trained, arms and funded ISIS.
My point is this - I decided some time ago that I would not censor myself that much anymore, because that is exactly what they want us to do.
If we allow ourselves to fear repercussions by not speaking out and saying what we really think and feel then the globalists manipulating this world will win.
You can't submit a comment to a news site these days without it being reviewed.
It seems they only want to accept comments that fit their narrative.
Well thats my thoughts anyway and good to meet you both.
- Scott

Armchair you have the basic perceptions of this grand deception correct. I just don't like Alex Jones' alarmist style. I like people like Dr Paul Craig Roberts http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/ or Prof Michel Chossodovsky of Global Research http://www.globalresearch.ca/

Our humanity is at the cross roads of evil totalitarian fascism or the dawn of a new Renaissance. We don't have much time left and had better choose wisely.

Armchair Critic,
Arjay is our resident conspiracy theorist and I am the resident Peak Oil Realist.

As for the others I will leave you to draw your own conclusions.
One exception Poirot has passed the Turing Test.
Requires careful input and has consistent output.

BJ,

'I for one don't like being treated like a criminal and this is precisely how these laws treat all of us - as potential criminals.'

Welcome to multicultural Australia. Isn't the intrusion into every aspect of our lives a small price to pay for the ' cultural enrichment' we receive?

'Note that even the Israelis who have experienced far more terrorism than we have, do not allow blanket surveillance of their citizens.'

Palestinians are not Israeli citizens. They control every single part of Palestinians lives. A couple of Israelis may have refused to participate in blackmailing Palestinians through spying etc but I haven't heard any credible evidence that Israel has agreed not to. I mean, if they are happy to raze Gaza to the ground and kill thousands of civilians, it seems hard to believe they wouldn't spy on innocent civilians.

Plus the Israelis aren't as stupid as we are. They focus on the threats. For example, they would spend a lot less energy checking Jews and Christians on airplanes because Jews and Christians haven't actually blown any planes up. There is only one religion where it is acceptable to chop off peoples heads and put the videos on youtube.

We have no chance of defeating terrorism because we are too frightened and too dishonest to even identify the threat.

Sure glad we got this multicultural thing happening though. I love all the food we get now. Who could complain?

[Deleted for abuse.]

[Deleted for abuse.]

Hi ConservativeHippie

Don't worry about the odd cretin crawling on this thread.

With a name like Albie :-)

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.

Hi Plantagenet,
even that subversive rag, The Women's Weekly has a story on NSA surveillance. The story mentioned Facebook's Messenger application which allows the software to access the phone's camera and microphone even when the owner isn't using the device. "smartphone(s) can be used to record your daily conversations and most intimate moments"(yuck), and also said that people should be wary of free apps as they can also provide the app owners with personal information such as recording voice calls and SMS messages, plus contacts lists.

Smartphones are basically mobile surveillance gadgets. The metadata they provide can show where you have been, who you have called and who is on your contacts list. A former NSA boss, Gen Michael Hayden stated that "we kill people based on metadata" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdQiz0Vavmc Maybe he was joking - I hope so!

Smartphones are so seductive, but they are pretty scary when you find out how much info governments and companies can find out about you without you even knowing! It sure gives me the creeps, and more than a bit of that Big Brother feeling from Orwell's 1984.

Even knowing what has been openly admitted by NSA etc, it is still hard to believe the massive scale of snooping on all of us. Maybe that is why we have let this happen without even so much of a murmur. We kind of knew/guessed but didn't really know about it until it was too late. Can you remember what a fuss Australian's made about the Australia card? That was nothing

rehctub,

"If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear."

Oh yes....those weasel words have been well hackneyed.

Here you go...

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/george-brandis-has-silently-swept-away-your-freedoms-20140929-10nev6.html

"Late Thursday night the Senate passed the National Security Amendment Bill (No.1) 2014 giving unlimited power to spies and secret police...."

"LAWS PASSED IN HASTE BY PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T READ THEM

Many Senators clearly hadn't read the 128 pages of major legal changes in the NSA Bill.

Hansard reveals PUP Senator Glenn Lazarus supported the Bill at the second reading, the day before the vote, without referring to any of its sections.

"I love Australia," the former football star chirped. "I love our freedom. I along with all Australians feel that our great country must be protected."

He was not alone. Liberal Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells used her second-reading speech to blather about how great multiculturalism is. She gave the statistics for how many Muslims live in Australia. Then she said it was not about religion anyway.

Labor was missing in action having already agreed to support the Bill."

Etc....

Hi Dane,

yes I love living in our multicultural society. I have friends who are Muslim, and I used to live near a Mosque, and I am saddened by the lack of tolerance and acceptance of ordinary law abiding Muslims that is becoming common place these days.

If a Muslim or any other person commits a crime they should face the full force of the law. Sometimes I think we are acting like terrorists have special powers or something the way we are giving away our rights and liberties left right and centre! If someone does the crime they should do the time and I have no problem with throwing away the key if they commit acts of terror and mass murder. But I am cynical about the ramping up of fear and distrust in our community by the MSM and the government, when we should be using calm heads to sort out any problems.

However I do have issues about living in an authoritarian quasi democracy which says it has the right to spy on me in order to keep me "safe".

Yes we can all be safe if we live in a bubble, or a gilded cage, but who wants that? Life is unpredictable and dangerous at times - that is what makes it worth living. Give me liberty! Being watched is the opposite of being free.

Regarding the Israeli military - I should have written Israeli military personnel - of course the Israeli military are coming down on these 43 brave whistleblowers who reported on the mass surveillance of ordinary Palestinians, like a tonne of bricks.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.615674

Ordinary people who speak the truth should not be afraid of their government, but this is exactly what is happening.

BJelly,

I understand your point. But my point was that this new terror threat and concomitant intrusive surveillance is brought to you by the cult of multiculturalism. We can hardly complain about terror threats and increased security when we were the ones who knowingly, willingly imported the threat.

We were the ones who destabilized existing regimes across the ME in the name of 'freedom' while pretending anything was better than a local tin-pot tyrant. It was like all we needed was one great big group hug to make the world better. Unfortunately, removing existing tyrants only created a power vacuum and chaos ensued. As any student of history will tell you, chaos is nearly always the worst possible outcome.

Maybe we should start teaching real history again rather than stuff like feminism, multiculturalism, GLBT Rights, Aboriginal rights etc (pick your bandwagon) that passes as history nowadays. No matter what the 'experts' tell us, none of what is happening to our societies was unpredictable. In fact, it was 100% predictable if not perhaps inevitable.

And before someone goes off on the not all Muslims are terrorists trope let me repeat another lesson from those of us who actually studied history. Terrorists cannot survive unless they enjoy widespread community support. Islamic terrorism is a Muslim problem. It is the Muslim community's responsibility to root it out.

Dane, I agree with you. We should teach real history again.
I was discussing the Islam problem with a relative and almost as
an aside I mentioned the defeat of the Moslems at the gates of Vienna
by the Austrians and the Poles.
She was astounded, she had never heard of that. She was a schoolteacher !
It seems it is just not in the curriculum.
She had known that the moslems invaded and occupied Spain as she
had been to the Alhambra.
The Serbs know the truth, they lost their homeland, Kosovo, to the Moslems thanks to the Islamic invasion.

I do not think that moslems will change as they believe the Koran has told them
that Mohommad was the last prophet and there will be no changes to the Koran at pain of death.

Dear Bazz,

<<I do not think that moslems will change as they believe the Koran has told them that Mohommad was the last prophet and there will be no changes to the Koran at pain of death.>>

Too bad that Mohommad himself never believed that he was the last prophet - but well, he never read the Koran!

Yuyutsu,

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying the Koran is not the word of God through his prophet Mohammed?

I have a suggestion for you. Why don't you put that on a sign and walk down Lakemba Street in Sydney?

It'll be a ball of laughs. You'll learn all about tolerance and respect multicultural style. Hey, you might even get a group hug out of it!

Let us know how it goes.

The whole thing about the "megadata" is that there is so much of it that an individual
can hide in plain sight. Unless the security services already have a reason
for you to be a "person of interest" they would never know you were there.
They will only be holding in the data that you sent an email to so & so.
They could list everyone you sent an email to and so work out your contacts.
It looks to me that is how the people raided in Sydney recently were tied together
and why most were not charged, but they had to be checked.

I do not believe they can hold the contents of the emails.
There is just not enough storage to hold all that data that can be afforded.
It would be overwhelmed by the kids photos being sent to grandma.

Hi Dane,

I think we'll have to agree to disagree re the role of multiculturalism, feminism, LGBT, Aboriginal rights etc, eroding our rights and liberties.

I think there is far more evidence to support the argument that it is the corrupting influence of corporate elites, and military-industrial complex, rather than minorities that have eroded our democracy.

I believe we are moving towards a fascist police state, where corporate rights usurp citizen's rights. Eg TPP agreement which will give more power to multinationals even at the expense of national sovereignty. These negotiations are being held in secret and we know very little about them. I could be wrong, but that is my best guess.

Those in power just set us off against each other so we are fearful and confused. Kind of handy when you want to protect and extend your power and influence, don't you think?

"Terrorists cannot survive unless they enjoy widespread community support. Islamic terrorism is a Muslim problem. It is the Muslim community's responsibility to root it out."

I don't believe this is true. I would argue terrorists like the Unabomber, Christians who kill doctors who perform abortions or bomb abortion clinics, The people like Timothy McVeigh who bombed the government building in Oklahoma which killed 168 people including children, did not enjoy widespread community support (these are the ones that came to my mind immediately, there are no doubt other examples). To suggest the opposite for Muslims seems a bit unfair.

Most people want to live their lives in peace, raise their children, and live a good life. Only nutjobs or power hungry psychopaths want to cause strife. Luckily they normally are few and far between, but when propaganda is used to incite fear and loathing, more of these creatures come out of the woodwork - on both sides - Muslim and non-Muslim

But like I said before, this is only storm and stress to keep us prols occupied while the big stuff is happening elsewhere - pretty nifty trick huh?

Dear Dane,

<< Are you saying the Koran is not the word of God through his prophet Mohammed?>>

Yes, I am, at least in part.

Read the Koran for yourself and tell me whether it is believable that God has said so - not all perhaps, but a substantial number of the verses.

So yes, I say that the words of Muhammad the prophet were heavily tampered with in that book as well as in its surrounding Hadiths.

<<Why don't you put that on a sign and walk down Lakemba Street in Sydney?>>

That would indeed be laughable if I went out the streets without evidence. This is a job for historians and forensic archaeologists to establish and prove that over a billion Muslims are missing on the true and peaceful message of Muhammad.

Yuyutsu,
If 1 billion Muslims believe Mohammed said something and are willing to die and kill for it, does it really matter what he actually said?

After you walk down Lakemba street telling Muslims how wrong they are, you might get onto families of people who have been 'slaughtered' with a machete and their head held up for TV. I'm sure they will feel much better.

BJelly,
The corporate influence is just another special interest like feminists, the GLBT movement, immigration advocates etc. In fact, it is corporate influences that have consistently advocated for higher immigration. This has been a disaster for social cohesion. The corporate world sees the country as an economy not a society. This has done enormous damage. As social cohesion disintegrates people withdraw into their own communities. Trust diminishes even more. People now are too scared to even let their children play on the streets. Society becomes ever more atomized. At least we have cheap labor.

As for the military industrial complex, I think you are confusing us with the US. If we can't even build submarines here (largely because of industrial relations laws introduced by Labor), then we could hardly have a military industrial complex. The US is quite different. I think it was Eisenhower who warned Americans of that in his 1961 speech. If only they could go back to that time!

Your other point is wrong, dangerous and morally repugnant. No Christan preachers or Churches advocate decapitating non-believers. Nor are Christians waging a sectarian war against other Christians. To equate the two is just silly. You probably also believe in chem trails and listen to the ABC?

Dear Dane,

<<If 1 billion Muslims believe Mohammed said something and are willing to die and kill for it, does it really matter what he actually said?>>

I sincerely hope so. While I hold no hope for those Muslims who are violent in nature, I do hope that finding the truth will help and give courage to the majority of those who love Mohammed, who are naturally peaceful, to stand up, be counted, and reject the violent cult that currently oppress them and the world.

Yuyutsu,
There's no law against being delusional, so if people like you are determined to see the world how they would like it to be rather than how it actually is, there's not really much anyone else can do about it.

Must be a great faculty to have though. See a 9yo hold up a severed head, gang rapes, mass grooming of under-aged girls, public stonings and beheadings and still somehow convince yourself Islam is the religion of peace.

Why don't you go to Syria and help those nasty IS people understand?

Dear Dane,

I didn't claim that "Islam is a religion of peace". In fact, I just wrote on a neighbouring board (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6579#197792) that Islam is a package, not a religion - and it's not peaceful either.

However, I do say that the purely-religious part WITHIN that package, is peaceful and yes, that stoning, beheading, rapes, etc. are not part of it.

I believe that the path for stopping the atrocities and suffering, mainly of Muslims, but also of others, goes through proving to the ordinary Muslim that the Koran and Hadith are NOT the words of Muhammad.

<<Why don't you go to Syria and help those nasty IS people understand?>>

First we need the proof. We need scientists, historians and archaeologists to dig all the evidence and make the case clear that the Koran and what Muhammad taught are two completely different things. Such a squad of scientists will be so much more effective than combat troops (not that the latter are not needed in the interim).

Also, going to Syria may be too late - it's the Muslim youth in Australia and the rest of the world who most need to hear the results of this research, so they don't go and join the terrorists in Syria and Iraq.

Dane,
I totally agree with you on the corrosive effects of corporate influence and how we are losing our sense of community.

I am not afraid of feminists, gays, lesbians, transgender, bisexuals, Aboriginals, Muslims, Jews, refugees and other minorities.
However, I am afraid of those who seek to take our freedoms away from us and who are doing their best to weaken our egalitarian democracy, and unfortunately they seem to be winning. I'm saddened to the core that all those young men who have defended our country in so many wars to keep us free have made their sacrifice in vain. They deserved better from us, and so do our descendents. We are not giving our children a better world than we inherited. And shame on all of us for that!

Yes the military industrial complex is American, but we are good and loyal servants of The US, and I believe the US government seems to be doing the bidding of the MIC. Obama prior to becoming President said he would increase transparency, bring the troops home and close Guantanamo, but since getting into power he has reversed his position (why?)

If Muslim preachers are breaking laws and inciting violence they should be charged and put in gaol. Do you think our security services are turning a blind eye to such things? I would be very surprised if they haven't infiltrated muslim groups - I know that is what they do to environmental and anti-war groups and the like.

Christians are capable of waging war between themselves - the IRA is a good example. I don't think the Catholic community felt that the IRA's terrorist attacks represented their beliefs in any way. The KKK (Protestants)killed and terrorized many Catholics. Anders Breivik bombed a building and then killed 69 people, mostly children in Norway not so long ago. There are other examples of Christian terrorism, but that will probably do.

We have laws against terrorism. Terrorists aren't superhuman, surely we can deal with terrorists of any stripe without losing our basic freedoms.

BJ,

'I am not afraid of feminists, gays, lesbians, transgender, bisexuals, Aboriginals, Muslims, Jews, refugees and other minorities.'

But it is exactly these groups that have eroded our freedoms. It is now actually illegal to hurt the feelings of these designated 'special' groups.

'We have laws against terrorism. Terrorists aren't superhuman, surely we can deal with terrorists of any stripe without losing our basic freedoms.'

Well, no. Refer to my previous post to Yoyo about people who are determined to see the world how they would like it to be rather than how it actually is.

Hi Dane,

I guess that is where we differ again, I don't want to hurt or insult feminists, gays, lesbians, transgender, bisexual, Muslims, Jews, Aboriginals etc. I would happily be friends with anyone from these groups. If I was to say anything negative to anyone from these groups it would be regarding themselves as individuals not as part of any particular group - so I am still be able to tell a jerk that they are a jerk, just not a (racial/sexual orientation slur)jerk. I have all the freedom I want or need as far as that goes.

How do these groups oppress me or limit my freedoms? How does gay marriage affect my marriage? If gay people want to settle down and have a family, that is great. Feminism has made my life better - I much prefer being in a marriage where marital r@pe is illegal - my mother and women of her generation did not have that basic protection - would the laws have changed without feminists?

But guess which group is not a hypothetical but a real and present danger to our privacy and freedoms? It isn't the Muslims or the feminists etc, it is our own government.

I am interested to see how Mr Brandis (and possibly Mr Morrison) use their new found powers of surveillance and censorship on groups they seem to see as "the enemy" their government certainly don't seem to have an issue slashing funding on scientists, pensioners, the disabled, students, the sick, refugees, environmentalists, Indigenous people, the unemployed,and other marginalized groups. These groups aren't likely to vote for them, so they can be targeted as "leaners". So much for "team Australia".

Do you think the government won't censor the media to protect those in powerful positions or to save them from "embarrassment"? Think it can't happen? Oh that's right it already did - we just don't know about it because the news has already started to be censored in this country.

An article of more importance than the silly waffle about burkas and security we've been subjected to. This is what should have generated debate and discussion for days. What a derail the burka issue was.

To all of you who think it is Okay that we have these laws, just remember the ALP was pretty Okay with them too and got them all passed. And they will get back in government again. Now you may think you've got the mob in power who are on 'your side', but it will not always be so. One day the others will be in government...

Then you guys will be the dissidents. The ABC, the only moderately independent broadcaster will be no more, the Murdoch papers will have folded, there will be nobody who will care about you as you languish in some gulag in Australia as trouble makers fomenting unrest. And the rest of us left wing freedom loving people can have our utopia!

Hey! I can see the silver lining! No wonder the ALP was keen to pass these laws.