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The Forum > Article Comments > Are men fools and clowns? Why media images of men matter > Comments

Are men fools and clowns? Why media images of men matter : Comments

By Peter West, published 8/9/2014

The publicity officer of the NSW Teachers Federation said that she wanted to live in a world without men. This may please many women, but it doesn't offer much to men.

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Those who watch TV, allowing ads to penetrate their own home, contaminating their own castle with that filth, ARE fools and clowns.

The author concludes with "Let's insist that advertisers present us with more positive images" - instead, let's insist that all advertisers are taken by the plague!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 8 September 2014 8:57:03 AM
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Oh for goodness sakes!
What a silly article.

If we can't laugh at each other, or at shows like The Simpsons, without thinking it is all some conspiracy to have a go at one gender or the other, then we will live in a very boring world.

Women are constantly portrayed in the media as air-headed bimbos, only useful for sex and as models for bikinis.

Maybe women would prefer to be seen as someone we could laugh at instead...
Posted by Suseonline, Monday, 8 September 2014 10:20:15 AM
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I am with Yuyutsu. You only have to look at some of the recent ads for beer, encourageing the usual beer drinking slobs to team with their mates and let there women languish.

Too much abuse of women is the result of this drinking culture.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 8 September 2014 11:14:00 AM
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after the atrocious performance of the emily's listers last Parliament I think many have woken up to the joke.
Posted by runner, Monday, 8 September 2014 11:25:34 AM
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If what is being said about men as a matter or course these days were to be said about women, you would be labelled a sexist; if about anyone of colour, a racist; if about Jews, an anti-Semite.
And the publicity officer of the NSW Teachers Federation says she wants to live in a world without men? And she gets to keep her job? Get a life...
Posted by halduell, Monday, 8 September 2014 11:27:46 AM
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What? She wants to live in a world without men?
A deserted Island perhaps? A Nunnery?
Should we pass the hat around to help with a one way ticket?
Bon voyage, God speed and good riddance!
We need this anti social, gender specific horse manure, like a hole in the head!
I mean, if it wasn't hard enough for the few remaining male teachers/male role models already!
[No, no, that's not how you play cricket luv, that's how you play pool! Well run though! Although I think you're supposed to run between the wickets, not around them! And no you're not supposed to rub the ball there! It's on the leg, not between them luv! A world without men? Oh! Okay? Just don't over-shine it then, okay?] And please pardon the intended levity.
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Monday, 8 September 2014 12:20:07 PM
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" And the publicity officer of the NSW Teachers Federation says she wants to live in a world without men? And she gets to keep her job?"

The NSW Teachers Federation's appointment of a misandrist as publicity officer, is a smack in the face for half its pupils -- namely boys -- and can hardly be regarded as being consistent with the process of educating young males to be respectful to women.
Posted by Raycom, Monday, 8 September 2014 12:21:10 PM
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The first two examples – the ‘get your hand of it’ campaign and the ‘don’t be a tosser’ campaign are not meant to belittle men and make them look stupid, they are meant to make men feel guilty.

Talking on your phone whilst driving and not putting your litter in the bin is equated to enjoying sexual pleasure on your own. The inference is that you should be equally ashamed of both behaviours. By projecting their own negative attitude to their own bodies onto all men these advertising companies and those who approve such campaigns are trying to induce guilt in men in order to make them change. Why not simply present good arguments as to why these behaviours are detrimental to society?

Men should stand up and refuse to be manipulated in this way. They should complain to these government agencies because they are wasting taxpayer funds trying to manipulate them rather than reason with them. Give a man a good reason to do something and he will likely oblige but if you are trying to manipulate him then it says more about your attitudes to human relationships than it does about anything else. When you try and maintain your attitudes at the expense of the taxpayer then you should be made to answer.

These campaigns have supposedly been very ‘successful’ but what value is there in manipulating and bullying people into change? Advertising companies who behave like this lack all credibility.
Posted by phanto, Monday, 8 September 2014 12:43:46 PM
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And here I am thinking that all forms of mass
media, from television soap operas to the
lyrics of popular songs still tend to emphasize
fairly tradional gender stereotypes.

Do media images matter? I'm not sure how seriously
anyone takes the images we see on our TV screens.
However, if we're going to talk about gender media images
we need to look at how both males
and females are portrayed.

To me, it is quite remarkable
how little the gender stereotypes have
changed in advertising over the past quarter century.

Women are typically portrayed
either as sex objects, in an attempt to market
various products to men, or as domesticated
housewives, in order to market home-maintenance
produtcs to women.

Market research has shown that one of the most
effective ways for advertisers to reach a male
audience is to associate a product, however
remotely, with a seductive or smiling female.

The sexuality of women is thus exploited by
having glamorous models being sent into
raptures by the odour of a particular after-shave.

Advertising directed at women, on the other hand, shows
females delighted beyond measure at the discovery of
a new instant soup, or thrilled into ecstasy by the
blinding whiteness of their wash.

In fact, the vast majority of TV ads that use women models
are for kitchen or bathroom products.

Men usually are the voice of authority on 80 percent of TV
commercials, including those directed at women. Yet
a barrage of advertisements still portray females as
simple-minded creatures, bickering endlessly over
which toothpaste or fabric softener is better.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 8 September 2014 1:25:44 PM
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There is some justified criticism of the NSW Teacher's Federation publicist here. I too wonder why she is considered fit for the job. Roughly half of all students are male, and in a world of enforced equity, roughly half of her union should be too.

Further, in comparing this article to the twin on the "conversation" I notice that the reference to this person is omitted, or hidden behind a paywall for "the Australian". Why has the author not attributed the quote properly and directly to the person in either case? I can well imagine editorial pressure omitted the quote at the "conversation", but do not think GY would object to a properly referenced quote however clearly it revealed the prejudices of the person quoted.

Rusty.
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Monday, 8 September 2014 1:30:14 PM
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Suse,
Show us a youtube video of a recent Australian TV advert that you think depicts it's female subjects as "airhead bimbos".
Pretty much all advertising is directed at women because they typically run the household, make something like 60% of the financial decisisions and do most of the shopping, so it would make no sense for companies to demean their target audience.
The typical advertisement goes something like "Smart women will buy this car because it's got five star safety features" or "An attentive mother will use this brand of disinfectant around the house, it's all positive reinforcement.
There are some ads which try to make mundane products trendy, tampon commercials for instance but the worst you could say is that they're frivolous, silliness is hardly demeaning.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 8 September 2014 1:31:33 PM
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I agree with suseonline, it's a very silly article. If men want to be represented in a better way, maybe they should start to change their behaviour.
Posted by Mollieme, Monday, 8 September 2014 3:05:57 PM
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JOM, did you read Foxy's post above?

How many stunning looking model-type women are on advertisements for selling cars, alcohol, mens toiletries, TV shows, insurance, and any number of others.
One doesn't need to look far at all.

Do you think these women are there to portray their bright intelligence?
Of course not!
They are there to say, if you buy this product, look what sort of 'hot chick' you can attract.

So the whining men who think the advertisers are being nasty to all the boys need to walk a mile in the girl's shoes, or else they can put in their complaints to the TV stations involved, just like everyone else has to.
Posted by Suseonline, Monday, 8 September 2014 3:24:15 PM
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Suseonline :
"So the whining men who think the advertisers are being nasty to all the boys need to walk a mile in the girl's shoes, or else they can put in their complaints to the TV stations involved, just like everyone else has to."

And the women who think that the men are just 'whining' should have better things to do than to than listen to them.
Posted by phanto, Monday, 8 September 2014 3:47:26 PM
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Suse,
So really, it's all in your mind.
Which ads in particular grind your gears, I can't think of one single ad for cars, alchohol or toiletries which could be seen as demeaning to women by a normal, well adjusted person.
I don't really agree with that aspect of this article either simply because there's almost no advertising directed solely at men on TV these days which leads me to conclude that you don't watch that much and don't know what you're talking about.
How many women buy all their husband's clothes, alchohol and toiletries for them? My wife and daughters buy all my clothes, I don't even ask for them, they just come back from the shopping centre with a bag of clothes and say "These were on special, try them on"
This article about advertising in the U.S is revealing, women pay for almost 80% of goods and services over there and the most effective way of marketing to women is word of mouth ie women make most of their purchasing decisions based on the advice of other women.
http://www.business2community.com/consumer-marketing/women-purchase-more-than-80-of-all-products-and-services-0188091
The author does make some good points about certain drama series, "House Husbands" is a pathetic piece of work which has had me howling at the screen "For eff's sake just kill yourselves already!".
That said there are some excellent male characters on TV, Craig McLachlan's portrayal of Lucien Blake in the Dr Blake Mysteries is outstanding and Stephen Curry, Shane Jacobsen and William McInnes in The Time Of Our Lives also deserve a mention.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 8 September 2014 4:14:38 PM
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Whilst I think advertising plays pretty heavily on the men as bumbling idiots stereotype there are plenty of other images in the media that don't portray men that way. Likewise the stereotypes used in advertising featuring women are not always ones women appreciate and there are plenty of portrayals to cover a variety of outlooks.

It is easy to pick the ones we don't like and ignore so that don't fit the complaint. A series of RACQ adds annoy me a lot for their portrayal of men but the images of women in them hardly flatter most women either http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJS58LzBhsw .

A little bit interested that Mollieme's sexist post has been ignored http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16657#292057 - not worth commenting on perhaps.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 8 September 2014 5:37:23 PM
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A selection of recent car adverts, they're all much the same these days:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63SOaMsElaQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NcHuGCZq-E
Lynx ads, the bane of Feminists world wide, what's the gender "power" dynamic in these skits?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=walLgxe1mcg
Bear in mind that most toiletries are purchased by women even if they're to be consumed by men so women obviously find these ads funny and tell their friends about the products.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 8 September 2014 6:10:18 PM
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What is more interesting is that the denizens of feminism who are always willing to trash-talk the huge majority of ordinary, respectable men are noticeable by their absence where feminism and political 'Progressivism' have led to great trauma and suffering.

See here, from the Rotherham thread,
Rotherham’s Collaborators
The helping professionals didn’t help; the caring professionals didn’t care
SEP15,2014,
Two weeks ago, the British press broke the news contained in Professor Alexis Jay’s “Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation in Rotherham.” Between 1997 and 2013, Jay estimated, 1,400 young girls in that Yorkshire town were exploited: gang-raped, trafficked to other cities, threatened, beaten, and forced to bring other girls into the network. The police did not respond to emergency calls from the girls and their families; fathers reported being threatened and even arrested for complaining. The victims and the authorities knew that “by far the majority of perpetrators” were “Asian,” meaning Pakistani/Kashmiri Muslims, who constitute about 3.7 percent of Rotherham’s population of 260,000.

Members of this group dominate the town’s taxi industry, and therefore had easy access to victims. The perpetrators were not merely pimps: They also dealt drugs and sold guns. Yet during the 17-year period she studied, Jay found, “councillors did not engage directly with the Pakistani-heritage community to discuss how best they could jointly address the issue.”..

The only ones who haven’t had much to say are the feminists; but given their dismissive attitude even to women of Muslim background like Ayaan Hirsi Ali who testify to their mistreatment by Muslim men in the name of Islam, one can’t expect them to show up to support women of English ethnicity or Christian heritage, especially from the working classes. Some feminists try to defuse the situation without actually criticizing the perpetrators, such as Suzanne Moore in the Guardian..>

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/rotherham-s-collaborators_804406.html?nopager=1

Acrually, it isn't 'interesting' how feminists sort their priorities. It is disgusting and they are shameless. They are superficial and trivial too.

Any wonder that young women see themselves as having nothing in common with the self-interested, materialist, carping feminist dinosaurs of the previous Millenium.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 8 September 2014 6:37:34 PM
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Careful there OTB, I started a thread on that very subject and got roundly abused for it, one must not question feminist orthodoxy since the very fact that you do demonstrates your (insert insult here), and it goes rapidly downhill from there, simply put it would appear that rational feminism is now an oxymoron.
Posted by G'dayBruce, Monday, 8 September 2014 7:59:41 PM
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Rusty Catheter makes a good point.

The most provocative sentence in this essay, the one about the NSW Teachers Federation publicity officer, is neither properly cited nor linked. Neither is the woman’s statement given any context. Was she responding to a leading question? Was she playing devil’s advocate? Was she quoting from someone else? Was she joking? Is the statement incomplete, i.e. is there a qualifying statement missing?

More importantly … did she even say it? I’ve searched online and cannot find any reference to the statement at all.

I work in publishing and I know that an indirect quote of this type, especially one so provocative, would never be allowed to pass without proper context and direct citation. This is the second time in the last few days that OLO has dropped the ball in terms of editorial integrity (the other being the 'Letter to a daughter' thread).

Lift your game, Graham.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 8 September 2014 8:58:08 PM
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On the beach

‘The only ones who haven’t had much to say are the feminists …’

Like this site that had nothing to say:

http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2014/08/addressing_the_root

And this one:

http://jezebel.com/new-details-emerge-in-case-of-horrifying-british-sex-ab-1629539480

And this one:

http://feministing.com/2014/09/02/daily-feminist-cheat-sheet-400/

And several more if you know where to look - that is, if you look up actual feminist sites and read what they say, as opposed to anti-feminist sites that say whatever they choose to say about what feminists say.

‘It is disgusting and [feminists] are shameless. They are superficial and trivial too.’

About as shameless, superficial and trivial as people who use forums like this as viral marketing tools to smear and discredit dissident and social justice groups they don’t like.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 8 September 2014 9:06:19 PM
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The political 'Progressives' aka Fabians aka International Socialists, with whom feminism is intertwined, are directed by a smug, privileged, educated middle class elite. All with their noses firmly planted in the trough of taxpayers' money.

Fat chance of them ever caring about anyone or anything outside of themselves and their own interests.

Feminists who can easily find misogyny in some fellow looking at his watch, and would pillory a dutiful husband and father for being wed and having a loving wife and family. Their vindictive jealousy makes them go after the wife and children too.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 8 September 2014 9:13:08 PM
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Case in point, a short of neighbours, shows a woman committing interpersonal violence against a male.

She slapped his face, after she sexual assaulted him.
Posted by Wolly B, Monday, 8 September 2014 9:15:01 PM
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Killarney, I too searched for this supposed quote from a publicity officer about The Teachers Federation spokeswoman.
If such a comment was really publicly made, it would be shouted from the rooftops of all media outlets for a start......so where is it?

These days, adverts are reported to the TV stations for very menial reasons, so if there was all these rampant anti-male adverts flooding our screens, wouldn't all the boys out there be madly reporting them?
If not, why not?

Or, is it only a few overly paranoid laddies who feel aggrieved?
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 12:28:01 AM
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Suseonline. If I were to walk a mile in your shoes? I'd be a mile further away and probably crippled for life. Boom boom.
As for objectifying women?
Can't beat nature and what am.
Men will always find attractive women attractive; that is why good looking gals feature so prominently in various deodorant ads and what have you.
[Moreover, nobody is twisting their arm!]
Not only do the products not work as intended, or like some sort of chick magnet, but rather have the opposite affect, with some very effeminate males being the ones with the twitchy noses.
( Oh la la la, I say darling, you smell divine.)
In fact these very products cover up the very pheromones we mere men need to attract a truly compatible baby making partner!
At the end of the day, those things that elicit a great big belly laugh, is what we all take notice of, and by definition, sell the most products.
As a father with two daughters, who I value more than my life!
I am first among equals for true equality, and completely demolished glass ceilings.
What I am not in favor of, is replacing the old boys club with a control freak feminazi one!
Life wasn't meant to be taken too seriously, nor I suggest, a patent control freak/nutter, who wants to live in a world without men?
If she is serious, how would she raise all the boys! Boom boom.
Cheers, Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 10:39:24 AM
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Yes I agree with what you are saying Rhosty.
I am absolutely not advocating for a world without men at all.

I just wish we could have more of a happy medium between a world according to pre 1960's old boys, and the more militant feminist groups.

As for the sexist adverts, maybe I am just upset there aren't more ads showcasing goodlooking young men ....like the 'Old Spice' ads :)

Cheers,
Suse.
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 2:26:36 PM
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Suse

‘I just wish we could have more of a happy medium between a world according to pre 1960's old boys, and the more militant feminist groups.’

Oh, for goodness sake! ‘Militant feminists’ do not exist. In fact, they've NEVER existed.

The ‘militant feminist’ trope has always been a ploy to marginalise feminist thought from mainstream discourse. This is typical of the psychological warfare used against all dissidents everywhere, right throughout history.

Why don’t you start looking more at the vicious behaviours and toxic outpourings of ANTI-feminist groups? They are far more threatening, combative and aggressive (i.e. 'militant') than even the most radical of feminists could ever hope to be.

Yet their behaviour is hardly ever even scrutinised by the mainstream, let alone condemned – as it should be.

Rhrosty

There is no definitive proof that men are biologically ‘wired’ to look at women.

There is, however, plenty of evidence that both men and women are culturally conditioned from the cradle to view women as objects to be looked at – a cultural syndrome that keeps women in a permanently inferior power position.

Unfortunately, those who have written about this have been conveniently maligned and demonised as ‘militant feminists’. This is necessary in order to ensure that hardly anyone will read or listen to what they have to say.

And thus, we can all continue perving at, lusting after and objectifying women to our hearts content - and exploit them to sell lots of stuff we don't need - oblivious to how toxic this behaviour is for both men and women.
Posted by Killarney, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 9:44:12 PM
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Killarney:
“There is, however, plenty of evidence that both men and women are culturally conditioned from the cradle to view women as objects to be looked at – a cultural syndrome that keeps women in a permanently inferior power position.”

Oh, for goodness sake!

Everything is an object – name one thing that is not an object. Everything that can be seen with a pair of eyes is an object to be looked at. We are not culturally conditioned to use our eyes it is perfectly natural and does not need conditioning. We look at things – thousands of things every day. Some things are more attractive to our eyes than other things. A beautiful woman is more attractive to look at than a child with a severed head in his grasp. We look simply because it is pleasurable to look.

The only thing we know about most of the people we see in any one day is how they look. We don’t have the time or inclination to stop and get to know people on any deeper level. Just because a man looks at a woman it does not follow that he has an inclination to know any more about her. It certainly does not mean he wants anymore intimacy. The only way you can say with certainty that he wants that is when he makes a move to create that.

Women might like to think they are being desired by every man that looks at them but unless you can prove that to be the case in regard to any particular man then you must be accused of distorting the truth for some revengeful agenda. Could you prove in a court that a man who looked at you wanted anything more than simply to look at you
Posted by phanto, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 10:42:16 PM
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LOL, Killarney the radical feminist directing gynocentric Suseonline.

Here, I will throw this article into the mix for opinions from both, and on just some of 'those' questions that have thrown radical feminists for decades, well back into the last Millenium. Vexed questions such as is a lesbian who undergoes gender reassignment surgery to become a man really a man and if so is s/he (?!, radfems might advise) a despicable turncoat to the cause? Can a man who becomes a women use the womens public toilets and so on.

"What Is a Woman?
The dispute between radical feminism and transgenderism.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

The feminists' argument could take a while, it has taken the best part of a century so far.

In Oz, there are government departments where lesbians who become men remain welcome in the womens toilets, but men who become women cannot and are relegated to the 'unisex' disabled toilets. The stance of the feminists apparently.

Who is paying for the feminist chin-wagging talk fests and feminist lobbying, that is the question that concerns taxpayers. There are priorities that go begging, such as hospital beds, for those taxes taken from the exasperated Aussie taxpayer.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 10:48:21 PM
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On the beach

Do you have to work hard at self-parody or were you just born that way?

I managed to get through about four paragraphs of that New Yorker article you linked to, before having to give up. I've come across lots of straw-feminist crap in my time but ... toilets and transsexuals? Oh, please.

It's just so obvious that the journalist was briefed to write yet another article about acrimonious disputes between infuriated feminists faced with all kinds of existential angst about their increasing irrelevance ... or something to that effect. As the well-worn MSM anti-feminist script goes.

And one cannot get more orthodox MSM than the New Yorker, can one?
Posted by Killarney, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 11:11:00 PM
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Killarney,

You are on the defensive, attacking the source. Those are real-life, practical examples and situations, unless you are dismissing transgender as 'straw-men' themselves.

Such simple questions, but as yet (and forever) the answers evade the radical feminists.

How many $millions of taxes expended on feminists and feminists' 'issues' over the decades?

The educated middle class elite who are the big swinging *bleeps* of feminism (*?! radfems to advise which is appropriate) can't even find any compassion for mothers breastfeeding, let alone recognise the very, very simple incontrovertible fact/practicality that most women go through (and choose to go through) a number of transitions in life outside of the careerist route approved of by feminists.

Can a lesbian who became a man and maybe even fathered a child (as reportedly some can do according to the spin in the media) be regarded as a man by radfems and is she a traitor to the cause?

Such simple questions affecting real people, yet you dismiss them as 'straw-men'.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 12:09:41 AM
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Killarney, you are extremely naive if you think there aren't some radical feminists out there, just as there are radical misogynists.

Surely even you have met them?

Personally, I can't stand either groups of people, as they seem to exist just to hate the opposite gender to themselves.

I met one only last week at a seminar on elder abuse.
The lecturer was discussing elderly people being violent to each other in a residential care setting. She stated that physical violence was well known in some care facilities.

When asked what the gender divide was between the violent residents, some woman in the room yelled out "Of course it is the men doing most of the hitting, because aren't all men controlling?".

For the record, the lecturer did not make any comment on that assertion.
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 12:23:29 AM
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Suse

I have two things to say about the incident you describe:

One, in forty years as a feminist, I have NEVER encountered ANY feminist make a nakedly man-hating comment like that, especially to a room full of people. If for no other reason, feminists know full well how much we as a society have been programmed to hate them, so they are very conscious of this.

However, I have encountered many, many, MANY people who distort and exaggerate innocuous and reasonable comments made by feminists out of all proportion, in order to make them seem man-hating, angry and combative. I have no proof, but methinks you might be doing the same. Either that or the woman you describe was definitely NOT a feminist – just a woman having a gripe.

Two, you don’t include the answer to the person’s question. What WAS the gender divide on elderly abuse? Or did everyone in the room shut up and pretend the question was never asked? (We don't want to get into all that gender stuff, do we? People will say we're feminists.)

And if you wish to trade anecdotes … Just a few nights ago, while out for a walk, I witnessed a woman being beaten by a young man on the front lawn of a house. The youth appeared to be her son.

So what does that anecdote say about men? Nothing. No more or less than your anecdote about the supposed ‘militant feminist’.
Posted by Killarney, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 8:21:59 PM
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On the beach

Of course I dismiss this garbage. Apart from the fact that toilets and transsexuals are completely out of place in a commentary about men in advertisements, this is just another instalment in your continuing agenda to turn every OLO gender thread in to a spruik-fest for anti-feminism.

And BTW … Why the need to keep on reminding people of how evil feminists are? Are you terrified that if you slacken off on your eternal vigilance, people actually might start noticing that they are real people who have something worthwhile to say?

Rhetorical question only. No answer required.
Posted by Killarney, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 8:27:28 PM
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Killarney, you weren't at the conference, so you have no idea what really happened.
She told everyone at her table she was a feminist, so I guess she was.

". What WAS the gender divide on elderly abuse? "
The lecturer didn't say, but I looked up the booklet on statistics she gave out to everyone later that evening. 66% of violent elderly nursing home residents were male.
They had violent encounters (including 3 deaths) with predominantly other elderly female residents in the 43 nursing homes in the study.

I already knew this though, having worked in Nursing Homes before. Demented male residents are often aggressive, while most female ones tend to be more sad.
Nursing homes are often considered microcosms of wider society, so we can certainly read something into that.

I have been involved in women's rights issues for 30 years, and my community nursing has taken me into many, many homes where I have witnessed good and bad feminists, as well as many good and bad men.

Maybe you have just been mixing with the same groups of feminists for 40 years, and haven't met the real men haters I have?
We will never get anywhere more in our quest with equality amongst the genders if we constantly lock horns with most men when you and I both know there are many good men in our community.
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 11:45:39 PM
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Suseonline, "Demented male residents are often aggressive"

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but maybe an observation and question from a layman might not hurt.

I know that Alzheimers may have different effects on women and men, and causes them to act very differently (to their past). From elders I do voluntary work with it is noticeable that men feel shame and frustration when care is offered, even where they are they are deserving of assistance and need it. Also, men are very frustrated, exasperated, by their own loss of independence and powers.

The women on the other hand while strongly independent too (that generation had a strong focus on doing for yourself), more easily accept care and adapt to limited movement and so on.

With both sexes the proviso is that no-one likes to be patronised and have their independence removed, so the decent thing (and it makes strong economic sense) is to maintain them for the longest time possible in their original home.

The other factor affecting a few men could be hardening of the arteries and consequent negative behaviour from alcohol abuse. However most who abused alcohol and drugs are not there in old age, or the number would be very few.

Suseonline, I have gone around the subject a bit. The only thing I am certain of is that the longer the stay in the family home the better, but government (and relatives!) are not always ensuring that happens. There is conflict at different levels of government, eg., high council rates and inadequate rebate.

Visiting any older person in his/her home is very different to seeing them in a retirement home. They are different people entirely, but especially men. It isn't just socialisation, I believe there are fundamental differences between the sexes as well and linked to survival of humankind. However, both sexes do better in the home they have lived in and raised their family.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 11 September 2014 1:35:32 AM
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Sorry Suseonline, the question was implied not asked. I was seeking your comments.

I did not comment on the elder abuse, however regrettably it is common.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 11 September 2014 1:44:20 AM
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All the men I know were raised at their mothers knee; and indeed, had their basic characters molded there!
And this applies to some of the most violent men in the world. In the Middle East and elsewhere.
There are now more women than men in Australia!
They are the majority as voters, bank account/share holders and property owners.
As the longest lived group they control more wealth than men.
And businesses where they are at least equally represented, seem to do better than where they are not!
In fact many see us and the US as matriarchies, where some women bleat about an inferior position.
And if true? Who's fault is it?
The inferior male, or those who have molded his character from the very cradle!?
And if women are underrepresented in parliament, who fault is that? The numerically inferior male voter, or the numerically superior female voter.
And why is it that when surveyed, most women claimed they preferred working under a male boss.
So whose fault is that. The men?
I've had it up to here with men being blamed for all the ills in the world, when its mothers who mostly mold the children.
As one well known Philosopher might have said, give me the boy from 1-7, and I'll give you the man!
There you have it. All the naturally aggressive men in the world took their earliest queues, mostly from the "butch" mothers of this world?
If Killarney wants to have a good long look at the principle reason some women get a less than fair deal from men, (controlled by the women in their life, from the cradle to the grave) I contend she needs only visit the nearest mirror?
Or failing that, take a three month course of testosterone, if only to finally understand some things from a completely normal man's viewpoint!
Just let us know first, so all we mere men can run for the hills/climb up on the roof and pull the ladder up after!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Thursday, 11 September 2014 10:04:27 AM
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Rhosty, no one is saying all the ills of the world are caused by men.
However, you have to face the fact that almost all violence is caused by men against other men and women.

Certainly they have been raised by their mothers, but it is a well known fact that if they are violent ( and not all men, or women, are violent) then they came from a home where a male was violent, and probably neglect from both parents.

A quick read through the paper each day brings us awful news of deaths by violence in our communities, especially this week. How many deaths are caused by women?

Now, no one is saying it is all the men's 'fault', because of course there are many reasons for this disparity in deaths from violence, but we need to face it together and work harder towards solutions.
To me, it appears that mental health problems are being left behind in a health system being constantly trimmed of resources.
Posted by Suseonline, Thursday, 11 September 2014 10:20:03 AM
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Suzeonline:
”How many deaths are caused by women?”

So because more women are killed by men being violent then it follows that men are the more violent gender? Is the measure based on the number of deaths or number of violent acts? It is possible that women cause more violent acts but men more violent deaths. That would make women the more violent gender would it not?

“you have to face the fact that almost all violence is caused by men against other men and women.”
This could only be deduced from the number of reported acts which are not necessarily a true indicator of the number of acts in total which might show a very different picture. Children are highly unlikely to report acts of violence perpetrated by either parent. If you include the number of violent acts by women against children you could quite possibly find that the greatest number of acts of violence are caused by women.

If you are going to draw the conclusions that you do then you have to – as you say – face the facts. You have to have accurate facts to face first of all. Selectively leaving out distinct possibilities that are not recorded is very spurious indeed when you are making such generalisations.
Posted by phanto, Thursday, 11 September 2014 1:05:06 PM
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Suse, Agree, children learn what they live, and ape example.
So, we see domestic violence the highest where it already the most common/seeming "normal" behavior.
Fortunately, intelligence is intervening, as are some mature men and role model women.
A sister reminds me of an obnoxious Killarney?
Extremely dictatorial, and able to go on and on til even a saint reacts negatively, and all too often over the most mundane issues?
Although I once waited with a loaded rifle, for the knuckle dragging Neanderthal who beat her up. I wasn't all that surprised when even her own son reacted by slapping her face.
She was quick enough with her own hands, when someone tried to defy her iron will!
Even a worm will turn if prodded enough times!
Dripping water will wear down the hardest rock, and a horse can be made to deal cards, if you stick a cattle prod up its exhaust pipe enough times!
It nearly always takes two to tango! Typically, battered women leave it far too late to leave!
I usually find a pro Isil/Hamas Killarney, unreasonable in the extreme.
A "typical domineering bitching bully," who invariably disagrees with everybody, even those agreeing with her; and whose comments are often like fighting a fire by dowsing it with petrol?
Cheers, Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Thursday, 11 September 2014 3:04:50 PM
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Phanto, isn't the ultimate violent act known as murder?
Ask any police or law enforcement personnel how many women murder other people?
Not many...

I stand by my ascertain that far more men murder people than women do.
That's just a fact.

Rhosty, "It nearly always takes two to tango! Typically, battered women leave it far too late to leave!"
I said the same thing when several men on this very forum asserted there were 'many' men out there in the community suffering physical violence at the hands of their female partners.
I was shouted down as not understanding of their situations.
What is the difference then?
Posted by Suseonline, Thursday, 11 September 2014 9:48:31 PM
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Suzeonline :
Phanto, isn't the ultimate violent act known as murder?
Ask any police or law enforcement personnel how many women murder other people?
Not many...

I stand by my ascertain that far more men murder people than women do.
That's just a fact.

So now it seems your argument is not that men are more violent than women but that men are more murderous than women which is an entirely different argument and has nothing to do with domestic violence which is the topic at hand.

The same principle applies as before. Women may attempt murder more than men. We do not have figures for attempted murders anymore than we have accurate figures for all acts of violence. The figures that you base your argument on may be true but it may mean that women are simply less successful than men are at achieving the desired result. This may well be because men are generally bigger and stronger than women. If women were bigger and stronger than men the results might be entirely different. You cannot blame men for being bigger and stronger it is a simple reality. No one ‘blames’ Usain Bolt because he can run faster than all the women in the world. You cannot judge murderousness by the results. Who attempts murder the more often would be a more reasonable query.
Posted by phanto, Thursday, 11 September 2014 10:34:48 PM
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Suse

You confirm by the leaflet you were given that men WERE the main perpetrators of elderly abuse in nursing homes – at a ratio of 2:1. And every study on violence confirms that it’s all about control.

So doesn't that confirm what the woman at the conference was saying? Why dismiss that woman as a ‘militant’ (i.e. ‘bad’) feminist for saying something about men that statistically turned out to be true?

I think that, while you are sympathetic to feminism, you have not yet learned to shake off your patriarchal conditioning to objectify and distrust other women and are thus more than willing to divide feminists into 'good' and 'bad' - when no such dichotomy exists
Posted by Killarney, Thursday, 11 September 2014 11:30:12 PM
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Rhrosty

If you look at my posting history on the gender threads, you will find that I am even more critical of women than men. Just check my posts above to Suse and OTB.

I have always maintained that the patriarchy is a system that BOTH men and women live under and that it has a toxic affect on both the male and female psyche.

‘… if only to finally understand some things from a completely normal man's viewpoint!’

I might ask you the same thing. Do you ever stop to think what it’s like to be a feminist? To be constantly told that you hate men, that you are greedy, spiteful, vengeful, anti-sex, anti-family, a troublemaker, an extremist, a baby killer?

Does it ever occur to you that feminists – even the so-called militant ones – are people and that they have feelings? And well over 90% of them (based on my own experience) are married with children or in long-term relationships.

Do you ever wonder why women become feminists? Again, based on my own experience, it’s because of an overwhelming sense of social justice. However, the patriarchy being what it is – a male-centric socio-political system – dictates that women can only become feminists for some male-centric reason, i.e. hating men.
Posted by Killarney, Thursday, 11 September 2014 11:57:47 PM
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Phanto, don't you consider the killing of women by their intimate partner (which is the way most fatal crimes against women in this country occur) as the ultimate domestic violence issue?
After all, an outcome of death is pretty violent, and it is certainly domestic if one is killed by one's intimate partner.

Killarney, my views on feminism and women's rights are just as important as yours, yet you seem to conclude that only your views are right?
How terribly patriarchal of you!

"If you look at my posting history on the gender threads, you will find that I am even more critical of women than men. Just check my posts above to Suse and OTB."

Well good on you for joining the old boys club in being more critical of women than men...you must be proud of yourself....
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 12 September 2014 1:10:00 AM
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Suseonline,

I am sorry that you did not respond to my thoughts regarding your assessment that "Demented male residents are often aggressive".

Alzheimers may have different effects on women and men, and causes them to act very differently (to their past). It would be quite erroneous then to rely on one's observed behaviour of some male dementia patients and then draw a conclusion that the personally observed incidents support a contention that men are violent (and potential murderers).

There are few men in elder care because they do not generally survive into old age as women do. That is not just men indulging in 'risky' behaviour as feminists believe and make men even more blameworthy for it (re-victimising the victims). It is a fact that men perform the lion's share of the dirty, disgusting and dangerous work to support society and their loved ones and that alone affects directly and indirectly can shorten their lifespans.

There is unrecognised cruel discrimination against elderly men in aged care that is designed for exclusively for women, and operated to suit women. The men are vastly outnumbered and the insensitivity to their needs is easily apparent to a visitor, but not so to the predominately women staffs who care for them, or to the other patients, women, who prefer entertainment and activities that suit them as women.

Even in the mundane but socially important shared meal table the patronising alienation of any male present is apparent.

Maybe one day someone might think that the elderly men in aged care have needs too, which ought be considered and reflected in the design and management of the facility. Doubtless after a life of providing for others many male elders would be stressed and affronted by the patronising dismissiveness towards them evidenced in aged care facilities and in health delivery generally.

It must be so obvious to those elderly gents that as men they are the disposable gender and the scolding mother's demand that they shed no tears and 'suck it up' when harmed is their inheritance and a burden to the grave.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 12 September 2014 3:46:15 AM
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Suzeonline:
don't you consider the killing of women by their intimate partner... as the ultimate domestic violence issue?

Not necessarily. I would think that there are children who would rather be dead than being beaten senseless by their mothers on regular occasions.

You seem to be suggesting that because men cause more damage when they inflict violence that they are the more violent gender. I always thought that the argument from advocates against men’s violence was about the numbers of violent acts that men commit in relation to the number committed by women. Their cry is that men are inherently more violent than women. They are blaming men for being more violent.

You seem to be saying that men are more violent because they cause more damage so do you agree that there could be more acts of violence carried out by women than men?

What is the purpose of advocates presenting statistics showing that men are more violent if the numbers are irrelevant? You are saying that the measure is the amount of damage done and not the numbers. Of course men will inflict more damage for the reasons I have already outlined – they have a distinct physical advantage. That is obvious but it does not prove that more men are violent than women.
Posted by phanto, Friday, 12 September 2014 9:42:48 AM
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OTB, I worked in nursing homes for 10 years, so I don't need to be told by you what goes on there and why. I already know.
It is a fact that dementia often causes aggression in elderly males, that's all I am saying.

Phanto, if you don't agree that men in our world carry out the bulk of physical violence and death against others, then you can carry on living in denial.
I have stated what I think several times now, and I am finished with this subject.
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 12 September 2014 10:25:52 AM
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Suzeonline:
Phanto, if you don't agree that men in our world carry out the bulk of physical violence and death against others, then you can carry on living in denial.

The classic put-down. It seems you are not averse to a bit of aggression and hurtfulness yourself. It is enough to simply say you disagree with me.
Posted by phanto, Friday, 12 September 2014 5:54:27 PM
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No Phanto, I don't just disagree with you, I know I am right.
That is not being aggressive.
See you on another thread.

Have a lovely weekend.
Cheers,
Suse.
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 12 September 2014 8:30:54 PM
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Suzeonline:

"That is not being aggressive."

Who are you trying to convince?
Posted by phanto, Saturday, 13 September 2014 9:22:06 AM
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Suseonline

I’ve been away for a few days, so haven’t been following OLO, and this thread appears to have run its course. However, just in case you are still lurking …

‘Killarney, my views on feminism and women's rights are just as important as yours, yet you seem to conclude that only your views are right?
How terribly patriarchal of you!’

Of course your views are just as important! And my views are not ‘right’, just open ended.

I wouldn’t make those comments if I didn’t respect your views. When feminism criticises the patriarchy, that criticism is not limited to men. Women are also brainwashed by patriarchal attitudes and it’s important for feminists to hold women to account.

I may be wrong in my observation that you are condemning the woman you referred to as a ‘militant feminist’ because, like so many women living under a patriarchy, we are brainwashed to objectify women as ‘good’ and ‘bad’. However, I threw my observations to you as a possible challenge to make you think.

No offence (or patronisation) intended.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 15 September 2014 9:55:56 PM
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