Anyone who is against Labor's tax and spend has my support.

THE WAY I LOoK AT IT
collectively;..GOVT CAN DO THINGS CHEAPER THAN WE..
if things in life have a cost/govt can borrow it much cheaper
we borrow to buy homes..knowing innthe long run/its a debt free asset/revenue stream.

we live in an area/where all nation/states/have way too much debt
COMPARITIVLY..our debt/over the worth of asset/is near payed off[we were about to reap te dividend\

we were making the payments
in fact/under even the debt load/we near got
what looked/like..a balanced budget/and now we going to do that rubbish trip again/all for what/our debt load is fractions of the rest of the world..cause the libs sell the asset/suposedly to caim we cleared the debt/but in rality they firesaled the aset/to buy junk like yanki planes that kill pilots/and burn up on runways

get rid of war expeniture and we can cdouble their disabled pensions
instead of selling off the royal mint[owed 36/billions /yet going for a mere billion?..ITS TRUE WORTH IS BEYOND PRICE/SELLING IT IS HIGH TREASon/like treasoners sold telstra comm bank etc etc

the fed/cuts spending/gets a clear credit sheet
yet we owe tripple on the state debt sheet and the councils are broke
dont tak about only one level of debt.

look at the bigger picture
start re nationalising our looted assets/jaling criminal malfeasance/high treason/

u have my support David. The problem is that most Green/Lbour pollies would be unemployable if not for the public purse. Hopefully you want to get rid of the other taxpayer funded propoganda machine (abc).

Our pollies make a lot of noise about fighting for Australia but do the exact opposite in selling of assets like the Commonwealth Bank that can create money debt free for infrastructure.

Unless we have a party with policies for new Govt Banks, the debt will totally enslave us.

and it's spash pool thinkers/voters link runner and "shadow Mister" that got this guy into the Senate.

When the author talks about publec servants what he saying is doctors, nurses, teachers, policemen, firemen.

libertarians are like communist they don't let reality effect their thinking. Let's hope its an unimportant 6 years the NWS voters have given us.

DAVID..near..every point/..deserves reply/but posT..LIMITS/apply
so..over-time/...i will try to forumlate..4/u..you a proper reply.

i.T.s*..all about..*..the power of one/..now/u.
lets make/help/assist..*you the one/

first/2\see
we been lied to..big time

quote....<<..you only need..to stand..[ahmen]..at Canberra’s War Memorial..>>

NO/david...YOU NEED-TO FirST..WALK-UP..THE HILL..mountain..[BEHIND/IT]
then..EXPLAIN..WHAT YOU SEE..[with/higher-eyes]..FROM THE TOP/OF THE HILL..AS WELL[sorry../i\..didnt mean to yell]

<<>and look..down..in*to..Anzac Parade.>>

then/walk..be*hind..the memorials../realize\they are only stages*
like film-sets..weed ridden often fenced-in/but just expensive..'fronts'/facades...dead stainless steel-pebbles and cement/..cold dead..FACARDS.

i have looked..towards..the modest building/from/the tent\embassy fire/looking pastthe place/b..ob hawke broke down and cried/and past where king georges statue..[near the rose*gardens/now stands]

before..when you looked down/the steps..<<OF that was once our Parliament House..>>ONE SAW KING/as sovereign.why was he moved to the left..i[talk to the guards/late at night\they davd setthings right/as about that night..good friday..2002

anyhow/lets..try/2\restore/your VISION/LOOK DOWN
FROM THE MOUNTAIN[YOU ARE NOW]..the-SWING-KING/OVER/
SEE THAT..WAY..ON THE RIGHT..OF YOU/to the left..of you..DAMM HERE I AM YELLING..AGAIN[LOOK/LEFT\DOWN/THE-STAIR/TURN-RIGHT.

THIS..TELLS ME..GO BACK..*and
onto.new Parliament House.>>

SEE DAVID/THE TENT EMBASY..IS MOViNG..UP HILL
g20/day/DAZE..[see ya soon]

<<>.10 per cent..of GDP,>>

built sewers/built a national capital[
david/look arround\you/g..ovt paid/cash\..every-cent/penny*

anyhow with/just 10/per-cent\..isee other posts..govt bult telecommunications/built armies/fought wars[for king and cuntry/built dams/developed rail/paid off/state debts/plus/..so much more/we but high ways bridges/ports paid tolls...death dutiesimport-duties and rents

10%..<<with most of this..directed *to
*core government functions>>

BUT THENTHEM ASSETS TURNED INTO..INVESTMENTS/
TO STORE .THE THEFT OF VALUE/10 PERCENT compulsory super..

PLEASE/NOTE,,THAT/investment/
SEE/WHAT-THAT..10%..*never BUILT

compare/tHE FRUITS/of\GOVT=10 PERCENT/ROADS/SeWERS/PIPES/WIRE
the fruits/WITH\..*COMPULSORY SUPER..?
/bail-out/bail-ins..putting out fires
as too big to fail..gets bailed out/again..plus stealing public asset

ITS TIME TOO BIG dead corperate/leeches,,TO ..lol big-2-FAIL/'too big to tax?..its time/they\PAYED SOME RENT.[AND..THE LIVING MAXIMUM/taxation/mandated/AT\10 PERCENT..

ONLY/DUE\WHEN WERE DEAD

OF COURSE/TOO BIG..TO FAIL.DONT DIE
but ..its time/the\biggest paid/the duties..LONG/OVER\due
david

its time/CORPERATE/[INC/LTDS]..
TAX/MINIMISATION-TRUSTS\benificiaries/of GOVT TREASONS/to pay the rent

/the SEED\PRICE/FOR PEACE/..IS COMING HOME/*.
restore/the]true/face-values..BACK-INTO/COIN
BAIL/OUT\US..WITH..ONLY SALL-CHANGE-REMAINING.

lets begin with the common wealth bank and the fed/and issue our own money/via the lIVING/SO THE DEAD CORPErates only get acces to the govt teats/via..BAILING OUT THE LIVING[see my coin debasement thread]

If I want a new road or school I should get together with my neighbours and organise it? Stupid, simplistic article by an adherent to a stupid, simplistic political ideology.

Bravo David, you are a breath of fresh air. I only wish those desperate for change from the Laboral duopoloy had voted for your Liberal Democrat Party principles of freedom and responsibility instead of Clive Palmer. Certainly it seems they would have had more sensible policy ideas.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to change the name "public servants"? Servant is the old-fashioned word meaning employee. Public servants aren't servants of the public, they're servants of the State, and very much of what they do is actually a disservice to the public.

"Government employee" is not too good for them; or even our indigenous "gubba".

With you all the way Senator and sorry we could not put someone like you from Victoria too. You should make the point that what is given, can also be taken away. Public Service fabulous pensions that go up up and away! Stop that and let them join the rest of us in paying for it via our wonderful banks. Lets see ASIC do something about fraud when it is their money.

Presumably DL won't be using public roads on his way to and from Canberra.
And one hopes that DL isn't involved in a horrendous accident on the way to serve the public purpose. There'll be no referral to a hospital emergency service - alas, being funded by evil taxes. And if DL were to suffer permanent disability, well with the disability pension funded by more evil taxes and destined for the scrap heap, then it's every 'man' for himself.
If DL does manage to get to Canberra without any dependence whatsoever on public infrastructure and services funded by evil taxes, as a purist libertarian, one of DL's first tasks no doubt will be to knock on the head the PM's Biggles-type splurge on the F35s. After cruelling that purchase, he can start work on the comprehensive dismantling of the defense establishment.
Thence to the citizen militia.
Having given us all the right to bear arms, the swathe of victims of major bank fraud will be soon gunning for the bank CEOs and their henchmen. Add the law firms and the judiciary that protect them.
The top brass in Coles & Woolies, masters of predation, will naturally be fair game.
The law of the jungle. Bring it on I say.
And invest in prisons, privately owned of course, to ensure a healthy retirement nest egg. If your still alive by then of course.

I wish you will, and support some of your aspirations. But where did the 1.9 million public servants figure come from? A quick count shows 167k for the Cwth, 322k for NSW and 226k for Victoria … The Australian workforce is currently 11.6 million. Doesn’t seem likely to me.

Leyonhjelm is promoting a pipe dream which has absolutely no prospect of success unless preceded by legislation to wind back the legislation of 1942 and 72 years of history.

He was previously a member of both the ALP and the Liberal Party. This article demonstrates eloquently why he didn't and will not fit in with the major parties of either side of the aisle.

In 1927, his chosen base year, the States had their own income taxes. He has ignored the states taxes in his claim of 10% of GDP in 1927.

In 1927, the States' tax take was far greater than the federal one, but the States paid their own bills. In 1942, the Commonwealth legislated away the States' rights to income taxes, sales taxes, excises, company tax and more. Currently, States total taxation is of the order of 10% of the national total and the Commonwealth collects the rest.

So, in 1927, the ratio of the Commonwealth:State tax takes would have been about 10/90 and restricted to items such as defense and aged pensions.

Currently, the tax take is closer to 90:10, yet States are responsible constitutionally for at least half of the expenditure, including education, health and police, which are not Commonwealth responsibilities. The expenditure ratio is now close to 50/50, yet the Commonwealth controls the purse via Clause 96 grants to States. We now have wasteful duplication at Federal level of Ministers and Departments of Departments of Health and Education, etc. They would simply not exist, were it not for 1942 and the resulting vertical fiscal imbalance between Commonwealth and States.

Australia's vertical fiscal imbalance is said to be the largest in the world. Maybe this is Leyonhjelm's true target, but he did not say so.

Instead, he has proposed to unilaterally reduce Federal taxation to 10% of GDP, ie $150B. This is unrealistic madness, not worthy of consideration, yet the AFR published this article and OLO has followed them.

In closing, the original Parliament House was "temporary" and overcrowded.

HAVE THEY GIVEN YOU YOUR 'YOU CANT CHAnGE ANYTHING SPEACH?
they forget any LEVER NEEDS ITS FULCRUM..your it./WHEN THEY GIVE YOU THE 7000 PAGES/not all need be read/imdeed dont bother trying to untangle it till its second reading/cause that 7000 pages is where the fat cats get their cream.

you will notice the scum floats just a bit higher than cream
and often/we dont know the real cost/till the money is lost[or rather the debt gained/were borrowning money to buy junk planes?

called hanger orniments cause their spend most their lives being maintaned/they kill their pilots/cancel that one contract=billionS

THERE WE Pyed off the debt
now for every new law/I WANT 4 MORE OLD FLAW LAWS TO GO
YOU WANT A NEW DEPT/WHICH 4 WILL GO..[WRITE ALL DEALS INTO THE MArgins/and yes asio can be your best friend

we talk to you[any one talks to you
hoping you can fix things for them..well here is a simple policy
its the living or the dead/one cannot serve two masters/and currently the living are fully bund into dead corperate debt.

break up the too big to faIL
HOW CME INVESTERS GET TAX DEDUCTABILITY/BUT HOME OWNERS CANT
ITS AN INVESTMENT/INVESTERS TAKE RISKS/..if you loose..THATS YOUR BIG TROUBLE/NOT GOVTS/AS BUISNESS FAIL GOVT TAKES THEM OVER..damm caps

i will ignore you lest i get the blame for chasing you away
the best replies follow the auther response/..so im over it/the guy running the motering guy/i want him to run the public service[NOT PUBLIC SIN TAX REVENUE RAISING]..OH AND REVEAL THE TRUTH[SMOKERS COST 800 MILLION[MEDICAL COT]..NOT 32 BILLION[THATS HOW MUCH TAX WE PAY*..

There's nothing to "consider".
Taxation is compulsory.

Libertarianism, like all utopian ideologies, sounds good in theory, but is unworkable in reality and would result in all sorts of nasty unintended consequences.

Yes, we need less legislation/regulations, no duplication.

But we do need schools and hospitals.

When you pronounce an intent to cut these, you make most voters run away in fright.
Focus your attack on the trivial "fluff".

We once had a much less regulated, privatised society.

And most people never saw the inside of a classroom, died at the ripe old age of 36, and their children ate bread, porridge and more bread if they ate at all.

Meanwhile others lived in mansions with servants, wore velvet gowns with diamonds and drank champagne.
It was an all-or-nothing world.

Socialism, in purist form, also produced horrors never imagined before.

But the system that's evolved over the last century is neither libertarian or socialist, it is half-way between.
It is not perfect, but no system ever will be.

Perhaps we've gone too far toward the socialist end of the spectrum, but pure libertarianism would take us back to the slums and street urchins of Dickens.
No thanks.

DAVID..we here are here to help you/we work for free[openly]

anyhow here is a current topic/on the tax warming climate change thing
and its all crapp
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16430&page=13

to quote/leo

Here us what a top scientist says” Given that carbon dioxide is indeed a greenhouse gas (albeit a mild and diminishingly
effective one at currently increasing levels of atmospheric concentration), and that some
human-caused emissions accrue in the atmosphere, the question of dangerous warming was a good one to raise back in the late 1980s.

KEY BIT*..<< Since then, with the formation of the IPCC, and a parallel huge expansion of research and consultancy money into
climate studies, energy studies and climate policy, an intensive effort has been made to
identify and measure the human signature in the global temperature record at a cost that probably exceeds $100 billion. And, as Kevin Rudd might put it, “You know what?

**
No such signature has been able to be isolated and measured.”
That, of course, doesn’t mean that humans have no effect on global temperature, because we know that carbon dioxide is a mild greenhouse gas, and we can also measure the local temperature effects of human activity, which are both warming (from the urban heat island
effect) and cooling (due to other land-use change, including irrigation).

Sum these effects all over the world and obviously there must be a global signal; that we can’t identify and measure it indicates that the signal is so small that it is lost in the noise of natural climate variation.

Twenty-five years on, therefore, we have answered the question, “Are human carbon dioxide emissions causing dangerous global warming”, and the answer is “No”; but strangely that answer causes environmental activists and their supporters, including apparently many scientists, to develop the disease known as deaf ear."
http://www.familyfirst.org.au/files/Bob-Carter-A-Dozen-Global-Warming-Slogans.pdf
cont
Posted by Leo Lane, Sunday, 29 June 2014 11:38:49 PM
http://cecaust.com.au/main.asp?sub=global_warming&id=main.html

/or\here..your opening speech
2 HOUR 24 MINUte mark
http://rss.infowars.com/20140626_Thu_Alex.mp3

FOR CURRENT AFFAIR/ASK MIKE
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/podcast.php

ME
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6293&page=15
MY ADGENDAS
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=48
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6196&page=8
http://www.voltairenet.org/article178638.html

MY ANGER
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/enron-2-0-wall-street-wants-manipulate-state-energy-markets-just-like-manipulates-every-market.html
http://www.nature.com/news/publishers-withdraw-more-than-120-gibberish-papers-1.14763?WT.mc_id=TWT_NatureNews
http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/35385/Repudiate-the-Public-Debt-How-About-Corporate-Personhood-and-Monopoly-Central-Banking/
current projects
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6416&page=23
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16263&page=11
http://ctb.ku.edu/en/table-of-contents/advocacy/respond-to-counterattacks/respond-to-opposition/main
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3819?msg=welcome_stranger
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15961
http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/35385/Repudiate-the-Public-Debt-How-About-Corporate-Personhood-and-Monopoly-Central-Banking/

Leyonhjelm's one term - Bugger You, I'm OK philosophy again. He's really on the right wing of the Liberal Party.

Certainly Leyonhjelm's $200,000 per year pay should not go to him.

This is a Stupid, simplistic article. Things happen by portions - so options of keeping all one's money or giving all to Government can never exist. In the real world Leyonhjelm people give some of their income to Government and keep some.

We are a society, not a selfish blokes' club.

Nobody will a still functioning brain argues that we need to collect more tax.
Just not from those already carrying an unfair burden, but those who pay little or none, then have the hide to boast about it.
The solution is as plain as the nose on your face.
Massive reform and simplification, that eliminates tax compliance costs!
Costs which on average, rip around 7% from the bottom line, and if we're ever silly enough to introduce an ETS, 11%!
If we only had just one entirely unavoidable tax collecting all our revenue. The rate could be set around 18%, as a single, stand alone, unavoidable expenditure tax.
The unavoidable nature, would mean all avoiders, would finally pay a fair share, and only as a proportion of the actual business, done in this country.
If avoiders, which includes 95% of Australian corporations, now headquartered offshore, were forced to pay, the revenue base would double and triple, even more so, as the big, tax avoiding multinationals, found they could no longer avoid a fair share!
Meaning, as revenue receipts rose and rose, the general rate could come down and down, possibly as low as 5% marginally variable?
The effect of just one tax would be, a 30%+ improved bottom line for local business, and a 25% improvement in household disposables, making a 15% noncontributory super immediately available; but only as industry super, and only as indexed proscribed pensions, that would allow these retirement funds to grow and grow, along with economic benefit they would provide for us all, as the high tech manufacturing world, could be encouraged here, if we were only smart enough, to also couple the worlds cheapest tax, to the worlds cheapest energy!
Rhrosty.

The author of the article, Leyonhjelm, is not a member of the Liberal Party. The Liberal Party is the party that is governing Australia at the moment. The name of Leyonhjelm's party is the Liberal Democratic Party. The name was probably chosen to make careless voters believe they were voting for the Liberal Party. It is unfair to blame Leyonhjelm's nuttiness on the Liberal Party. Party names which might confuse voters should not be allowed.

David f
You say, "Party names which might confuse voters should not be allowed"

If so, I propose that the so-called "Liberal Party” be required to change its name. It's becoming less and less Liberal by the week.

Don
The data on public sector employment are from the ABS:
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6248.0.55.002/

I disagree with quite a lot that Leyonhjelm says, but it is a fresh perspective and internally consistent. But I’m always suspicious of yet another professional politician telling us he’s not just another professional politician. I’m waiting to see what he actually delivers.

@ David F:

If David's comment is in response to something I posted, then he has misread my words. Plantagenet didn't say that Leyonhjelme is a Liberal, either. He stated that the Senator i to the far right of the Libs.

Leyonhjelm was, however, formerly a member of the Libs but parted company with them. Earlier, he was a senior figure in the Labor Party.

I have not checked, but with hobbies such as his, he may well have also been a member of a Fishin' Shootin' and Rootin' Party at one stage.

My point was and remains that he has had a peripatetic political career, so it is not surprising to find that he has arrived with some half-baked policies. It is also not surprising to find that he has few supporters.

Regarding his true electorate, wasn't he in Block 1 of the NSW Senate paper, with less than 2/3rds of a quota? In which case, he truly represents the Donkeys.

And it shows.

In your dreams Chum.

David

So we have Shadow Minister, runner, Jardine K. Jardine, and JBowyer all lining up to give you their fulsome support mate. Wow! I'm just wondering how on earth you talked them around on your open door policy for immigration?

“The Government’s current approach to stopping them is expensive, vulnerable to developments in partner countries outside our control, and distracts the Navy from its primary purpose. Moreover, it lacks compassion and treats foreigners as something to be feared rather than as potential contributors to our society. There is a huge opportunity for mutual benefit for economic refugees and incumbent Australians. The solution is to open the front door and allow them legal entry upon payment of a fee.”

http://catallaxyfiles.com/2014/05/30/guest-post-david-leyonhjelm-open-the-front-door/comment-page-6/

Extraordinary! Congratulations.

Libertarianism is the cry of predators. Liberty for predators means tyranny for prey.

To avoid being prey, people coalesce to maintain a state with coercive powers. To avoid being prey of the state, people control it through democracy. Reality is partly but not fully described by this. Avoidance is incomplete because representative (i.e. far from democratic) government allows predators to operate through the state by corruption (funding political parties and indirectly suborning other instruments of the state such as through old boy networks and purchased think tanks and heavy investment in "news" media).

The misnamed "Liberal Democrats" seek not only to expose us all to untrammelled economic predation but also physical death and injury by sweeping away John Howard's curbs on every nutter who seeks an arsenal of deadly weapons.

The genie was let out of the bottle by the introduction of tickabox Senate voting allowing party apparatchiks to allocate preferences not on policy but on backroom negotiations not only with groups that might actually stand for something of national benefit but also with all kinds of freaks, hobgoblins and monsters who seek leveraged access to parliament unwanted by the voters.

The Senate farce urgently needs reform. Perhaps tickabox for the parties arranged preferentially between the parties only, followed by preferences below the line for as many other candidates as the voter wishes to include.

Even better would be to introduce democracy - binding citizen-initiated referenda to limit predation by the state

SteeleRedux

u r not telling that David Leyonhjelm is as deceitful as the Greens ? If so I definetly renege on my support. Have the Greens apologised yet to the families they enticed to their deaths on the sea?

Most of the "Liberal Democratic" Party policies http://www.ldp.org.au/index.php/policies are really feel good - more rights, pro-monied interests, less social responsibility.

The Commonwealth Bank and big power companies would love it.

Putting the "Liberal Democratic" Party policies together comes up with - pro-pot smoking bikies with guns - with reduced police involvement to handle them.

<I am the first politician elected to an Australian parliament on a purely libertarian platform,

<with a mission to lower taxes, remove regulation, and put an end to the nanny state.

Where would we be without taxes?

The hume highway would be a dirt track or maybe a toll way ( that is tax by the way).

The vast majority of our children would not be able to read or right (write). Unless their parents were wealthy.

We would not have the standard of health that we have today, and join many of the third world countries in infant mortality.

Remove 'regulations' so that protections are removed, just the other day a woman died after being electrocuted by product that did not meet Australian regulatory safety standards.

We only need to look at what has happened to power prices especially in Victoria, once prices have been deregulated.

We get price gouged by fuel companies, the big 4 banks and the super market chains.

The idea of a 'free market' is delusional dream or the promotor stands to make a huge amount of money out of selling the idea.

@ Emperor Julian:

No need to go straight to citizen referendums, although organisations such as Get Up are making it easier to gather the numbers to request one.

How about a very small change to Senate voting rules, as follows?

Voting above the line. Number each square from 1 to X, where X is, say, 6 minimum. Party-determined vote swaps will be ineffective because the system is simple enough for voters to determine their own preferences if they wish regardless of any party line.

Voting below the line will be by numbering, say, 12 or more squares. Again, there is no room for effective vote swaps, because voters will very simply make their own decisions, despite party How-To-Vote recommendations.

Formal BTL votes will be accepted. ATL will be counted if and only if no formal BTL vote has been cast.

The result will be fairer, simpler and much easier to count than at present.

There will be no need to proceed with current plans of the large parties to discard votes from parties/blocks with less than 3% share, because there will be vastly fewer single issue outfits standing. The LibDems and other loonies will cease to exist.

It's a bit rich, complaining that the liberal democrats is a misnomer, when the most conservative party in our history, consistently refers to itself as liberal!
The same party that hissed mining boom mark one, up against the wall as tax breaks for those who just didn't need them, and or vote buying pork barreling, and 70 billions and rising, worth of entitlements for the better off, that they now want to pay for, by taking the bread out of the mouths of babes!?
And if, repeat if the other party, was similarly courting very big business, at the expense of their former core constituents, then when has two wrongs ever made a right!
As for the states collecting tax, that's a recipe, for once again, states competing with each other, and even madder now than then, in a global market, that laughs at us, all the way to the bank.
What do you think patent pragmatists were actually referring to, when the quote was, we would become the poor white trash of Australia?
Our outstanding manufacturing growth, or our world beating aerospace industries?
We who once owned a bank, a telco, an airline, with the most enviable and trusted reputation, are now, all but extending a virtual begging bowl to Asia!?
Neither party is covered in glory, but rather shame, given the extent of privatization, and during mining booms, with income earnings, that now must be replaced or simply forgone.
I mean, just take all that we once owned, then add up all the current revenue, and then match that against aged pensions, i.e. And then ask yourself, why is any taxpayer being asked to put their hand in their pocket to pay for this!
Excellent management practices by various governments perhaps!?
Rhrosty.

If we the people actually owned a citizens initiated referendum, we could, i.e., reverse some of the really nutty conventions we signed, that lock up huge swaths of our economic zones, and the treasures that may lay there; oblige the states to vote themselves out of existence, and allow we the people, to pocket or re-prioritize, the seventy billions PA, this would save or release.
We could, return much more regional autonomy, and direct funding model, of all social service.
A measure that would liberate a further, 30%, of the current funding total, for more coal face funding; as opposed to simply padding the bank accounts of thousands of fee charging, middle men, money handling, make work in triplicate, state bureaucrats/politicians?
There is nothing the states actually do, that couldn't be done far better by councils and the federal govt, and a return to, unpaid voluntary regional boards. Asian pragmatists did just that, as they predicted, we would become the poor white trash of Asia!
We need to re-inculcate, the volunteer traditions, that served us so well, during the Great Depression, and the ultra pragmatic decisions that flowed from that, from people, really in touch, with all of a particular regions, most pressing problems!
Rhrosty.

I agree fully with everything that Rhrosty has written in his (second) post above, and I routinely place the Liberals last, even after all the other freaks[1]. That doesn't alter the fact that the term "Liberal Democrats" is a lie intended to fool people into associating it with the British Liberal Democrats (not they they're any oil painting either)

[1] I did once point out to my local Member, Michael Keenan, that if the Libs replaced Abbott with Turnbull I'd promote them to second last.

Rhrosty, for once I agree with your every word.

I didn't really intend advocate a return to State income taxes, but to point out that the author had ignored their existence at the start of his rant and thus had presented an apples Vs oranges comparison.

I do, however, see substantial room for reducing centralised control from Canberra of State responsibilities such as in education, health and infrastructure, provided that this does not result in repetition of the rail-guage issue.

States will occasionally still do stupid things, but none as stupid as maintaining the bureaucratic empires in Canberra which exist for no good reason but to get in the way of service delivery by the States.

Sorry, by "second" I meant Rhrosty's post at 4:57:23 PM

As a keen shooter and gun collector and a firm believer that everyone has the right to possess an adequate means of self defence, I none the less consider David Leyonhjelm to be a dangerous person, not because of the guns that he owns but because of some of his ideas and some of the causes that he espouses.

This bloke is only in the Federal senate because of the donkey vote, and a fair bit of fiddling with very minor party's,who he actually represents sounds to me like as per usual the Australian version of the discredited Tea Party,who are on the madder right wing than the present Govt.
Abolish the states fine by me they are a waste of money no great loss,hopefully at the next election I think we are stuck with him for 6 yrs he will retired by the voters,and I bet he grabs a pension and we will never hear from him again,to me Libertarian = creeping Fascism.

How much of the $20 billion allocated to new weapons systems this year will be wasted on agent commissions, jetsetting around the globe for the main players as well as the usual 5-star hotel accommodation and official banquets, and over- and under-the counter financial incentives and corporate taxbreaks for the arms manufacturers ... oh, and state of the art coffee machines.

And how much of the $60 million allocated to WWI celebr ... I mean ...commemorations will be going to cocktail parties at the Australian War Memorial and jetsetting our pollies and their families to Dawn Services in Turkey and hymn-fests at Westminster Abbey?

The whopping big flaw in an otherwise reasonable article is that this warrior against government waste is perfectly fine to allow the most wasteful of all our government departments - the Department of Defence and its subsidiaries like the Department of Veterans Affairs and AWM - to go on ripping off the taxpayer for all they're worth.

I don't know enough about David Leyonhjelm or the LDP to comment on them. Some of the points made in rebuttal have been worthwhile.

I can though agree with the direction of points that David makes and be concerned that some treat them as an all or nothing proposition. It is in my view a question of balance and that some view that the balance is too far in the governments direction.

I object to the level of social responsibility that is heaped on me via the tax system as a wage earner if I work extra hours to meet my own needs. I don't see that same "social responsibility" burden on those who's circumstances allow very different work life balance. We needs roads, hospitals, doctors, police etc but there should be a lot more fairness to how much obligation is placed on individuals. The current system takes no account of need, choice etc. It's just based on the arbitrary criteria of taxable income.

I have concerns for the future with the increasing reach of government both by way of ever increasing regulation and the power technology brings. We need checks and balances in place to limit governments abuse of that power and I really don't believe that it's only wrong doers who need have concerns about ubiquitous policing.

R0bert

EmperorJulian, remember there are freaks, hobgoblins and monsters out there in the voting public too.

Under democracy, they should have the right to form, donate to and vote for The Freak, Hobgoblin and Monster Party.

"binding citizen-initiated referenda to limit predation by the state"

Is that what is written on the ballot?
It'd need to be a bit less vague than "limit predation by the state".

In our "frivolous lawsuit" era, that could be construed to mean virtually anything the state does.

Another solution to the senate ballot is to simply not have preferences.

If you number above the line, it's stops at that group and goes no further.
Only below the line are transferred.

Seat allocation is based on total votes (above), then transfers (below), then largest remainder of above.
You may still get a Freak or two.

Rhrosty, you want to abolish the states, only to set up "regional autonomy".

You say tomayto, I say tomarto.
You're just replacing something with a variation of itself.

Are the "regional" social service needs so different in Coonabarabran compared to Hornsby?

People need schools and hospitals, but what significant difference would there need to be in those services?

The bureaucracy could be left in Canberra.
This is the computer age.
The garbage collection of the whole country can be organised on a single computer by a single clerk.

If there are any specific regional needs beyond the national one-size approach, where is the *community*?
Can't they fund those few minor deviations themselves?

David Leyonhjelm,

I congratulate you on being elected to the Senate. I support most of what you stand for. You speak well. I hope you can have an effect.

I have one suggestion. I'd urge you to drop your advocacy for reducing the restrictions on gun ownership. The vast majority of Australians do not want to go down this path (the American path of gun ownership rights). We just don't want it. Only a tiny minority of Australians would support your crusade on this issue. I realise it fits with your interpretation of libertarian principles, most of which I support, but not the bit on gun ownership. They infringe my rights to security. A person gets angry at me on the highway for overtaking him when I made a mistake and misjudged it, becomes enraged (road range) then shoots me.

You are not going to gain broad support on this and you'll expend most of your early political capital defending it, for no gain. Then you'll be unable to make progress on the important issues that you have raised here.

I hope you will be pragmatic and effective. I wish you well.

Don Aitkin,

>"But where did the 1.9 million public servants figure come from? A quick count shows 167k for the Cwth, 322k for NSW and 226k for Victoria … The Australian workforce is currently 11.6 million. Doesn’t seem likely to me."

Don, I include all hosp[ital staff, most community nurses and most academics as public servants, all paid out of the tax payers funds. That's just a start.

Shockadelic, if the FH&M Party scores enough actual votes, from FH&Ms knowing they're voting for it, then by all means it should get a seat. The Senate system is a lottery. One unknown - an outsider called Ricky Muir (keen on cars) made it on a 0.51% vote. The Senate is awash with these accidents. Reform is thankfully on the way - see http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/senate-voting-reform-to-finish-minor-parties/story-fn59niix-1226912357031?nk=ef5e6c1383813fa3511d95cbdfc64cfc

There was nothing about binding citizen-initiated referenda on any ballot. My final paragraph was as assertion that that such a system - known as democracy - would be an improvement on any tinkering with any representative voting systems. Real decisions on important specific issues by direct vote of the people. This right of the people is embedded in the constitutions of more than half the States of America and there is pressure (resisted of course by the global corporations which own the US politicians) to improve its accessibility and spread it to more States.

So David, with all the millions being spent on parliamentarians' pensions, you be the first to refuse this waste of taxpayers' money?

And you'd say that the incomes (derived from speculation) of the mega rich is best left in their pockets to further speculate on housing, land company takeovers creating oligopolies, gambling etc and push up house prices and rent for the rest of us? You'd say this is good for the economy and for the majority?

And I suppose David that you'd disagree with the notion that taxes are spent on providing services - both creating jobs and infrastructure - meaning more in the rest of the economy for businesses?

David Leyonhjelm

I generally support the drift of where you want the nation to go, my only exception is that government needs to be involved in infrastructure seeding development, regulations on core services and providing a nurturing environment for small businesses who do not have the resources to deal with the endless red tape that governments at all levels apply.

As for the new era in the senate it does look like a more representative senate with the greens vote down by 3.5% at the last election and Tasmania in specific turning on the tree huggers.

What you do need to understand is that the government went into the election with some very clear agenda items, sure you can question these, make some positive amendments but these must go through, you are not the government, you are part of it.

As for the overspend on coffee machines .... trivial amounts but yes the need a broad policy on coffee, many commercial organisations don't give you instant any more let alone high end machines. You can buy a pod machine for under $100 and let the staff buy their own pods, they require very little maintenance (pretty much throw them away when they fail).

As for the 16m grant sure question it, but if it helps create jobs that last and grow I am happy with that as opposed to about $200m to Holden / year for a declining workforce. I see government grants as seeding jobs not maintaining them.

"In my term in Parliament, I want to convince Australians to reconsider whether handing their money over to the government is better than keeping it themselves"

These guys have got a head start on you, David.

They believe that keeping the money themselves is far better than handing it over to the government...even after a $15 billion profit!

http://www.smh.com.au/business/glencore-tax-bill-on-15b-income-zip-zilch-zero-20140626-3awg0.html

And these fellas wouldn't dream of handing over their big bickies:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/budget-pain-not-for-millionaires-who-pay-no-tax-20140512-zr9o3.html

"The latest tax statistics show 75 ultra-high-earning Australians paid no tax at all in 2011-12. Zero. Zip.

Each earned more than $1 million from investments or wages. Between them they made $195 million, an average of $2.6 million each.

The fortunate 75 paid no income tax, no Medicare levy and no Medicare surcharge, even though 60 of them had private health insurance.

The reason? They managed to cut their combined taxable incomes to $82. That’s right, $1.10 each."

Society?...infrastructure?...collective enhancement of community?.....

Pfft!

Godzilla cannot be placed back in its cage - because it never was caged in the first place.

Godzilla by its nature is a monster, a predator, because it imposes itself on us involuntarily - ordering around everyone who happens to live in this continent. It is an illegitimate creature.

However, had Godzilla been voluntary, had its members (citizens) accepted it without coercion, then there would be nothing wrong in principle, for example, about it purchasing coffee machines for its bureaucracy.

Good point Poirot but if we had one sensible eight year old in the public service this would all be bought to a crashing halt. Tell the PS numpties there is no more money for their mothercare payments that so many people are incensed about the rest of us getting. Then watch schemes hatched and put in the next day to stop these rorts.
Do not tell me it is even hard. Mate you just arrest them, tell ASIC and if ASIC do not just order them off the directors chairs start on ASIC benefits. Our cosseted and grossly overpaid PS are the reason these blokes get these huge amounts.
Start with a nice reasonable ten per cent cut to all PS salaries but tell them that this will be for this week but if no money received then bigger cuts next week.

A new era in the Senate....

Ahem.....this should clarify everything.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/jun/26/first-dog-cartoon-newsenate?CMP=twt_gu

"First Dog on the Moon on ... the new Senate"

Lol!

Hi Poirot

Thanks for the highly informative Oz Guardian new Senate winners guide http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/jun/26/first-dog-cartoon-newsenate?CMP=twt_gu

And yes Brave Sir* Clive will be the most powerful man and politician in Australia for perhaps 3 years until the PUP Senate dominance declines.

I have it on good authority that Rupert's Press is expanding its broadsheets side-ways to accommodate Clive's svelte figure on the front page for the next 1,000 days.

* "Sir" Clive is a future thankyou from Tony for "Services to Politics" - a real Knighthood category in the rebooted Oz List of Social Betters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_knights_and_dames

Regards

Pete

On the public servant numbers issue. Clearly a lot of public sector employees are not employed under the various public service acts. Likewise many are engaged in front line activites rather than dreaming up endless regulation and red tape.

The overall numbers ar at http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6248.0.55.002/

ADF permanent employees are not included in those numbers, stats at http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1301.0~2012~Main%20Features~People~121 which seems to be around 80,560

I've not managed to find a breakdoen of numbers that are more relevant to this thread, the number employed in roles that provide services. The other factor that would be interesting is cost of service for pubic sector compared to equivalent services in the non-government area. IT departments, call centers and no doubt a range of other areas would have metrics somewhere that would be relevant to that aspect of the discussion but I have no idea what if any of it is available online.

R0bert

Peter Lang, Mr Road Rage doesn't need a gun to kill you.
He has a car.

He can ram yours off the road and keep ramming until your car is the size of an accordian (with you inside).

EmperorJulian, I can't read The Australian article. I'm not registered.

Any reform designed to "finish" minor parties, "finishes" democracy.

No doubt there will be arbitrary thresholds, onerous registration bureaucracy, etc.

This is purely the Tweedles maintaining their power, nothing to do with what's right, good, fair or "democratic".

"There was nothing about binding citizen-initiated referenda on any ballot."

A referendum *is* a ballot.

A ballot is a "secret vote" to make a decision. Any decision. Not just electing MPs.

If your family secretly vote on what flavour pizza to buy, they are having a "ballot".

My point was that "limiting predation" is too vague.
The question would need to be more specific.

I agree though, there should be a lot more direct, and a lot less "representative", democracy.

Good luck in your laudable endeavors, David. I spent 8 years as a state MP in WA and remain convinced that it's all about leadership. If the government of the day or the Minister is seen by public servants to be frugal and non-wasteful, then they will follow the example set by their superiors. However, you will find that the level of comfort and service provided to you and your colleagues in the Parliament building and in electorate offices is so high that you will have to work very hard changing basic attitudes and existing privileges to make any sort of difference.
But my experience is that change is possible if you are persistent. In my view, your targets should not be the public servants but their ministers. So ask 1000s of questions on notice to Ministers to get them to justify every expenditure that you're unhappy with and ask the difficult questions of Ministers during Estimates and in committees. And don't take no for an answer.
Lastly, don't believe much of what you are told in the first responses to your questions. Public servants see themselves as having a duty to protect their Ministers from criticism, so they will hide the truth (without telling direct lies, of course) as much as possible. It may take 3 or 4 or 5 sets of questions before you arrive at the truth.
Good luck.