A well written article explaining the background behinds ADIZs and the balancing acts regional countries need to perform regarding China's claim to an East China Sea ADIZ.

The author avoids parochial-ideological asides like its "China's fault...America's fault ...or especially Abbott/Bishop's fault"

In the realist world there is international recognition that might has its privileges - with the aim of achieving stability and avoidance of war. Might explains why the five most militarily powerful countries are the five permanent members (P5) of the UN Security Council. They were appointed the P5 in 1944-45 and then in the mid 1960s appointed the only 5 countries legally permitted to possess nuclear weapons.

The US has its national ADIZ and its widely recognized Monroe Doctrine privilege of controlling major security matters in North, Central and South America.

Where this is going is that China is an emerging super-power with an expanding sphere. Put another way China's might has its sphere of influence privileges. China's main problem is that major powers Japan, the US and Russia are also in/near to China's South China Sea and East China Sea sphere.

As the author's article suggests avoidance of conflict in the region between these powers is a major international interest.

Pete
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/

The China-haters and the Yank-apologists will soon cluster around this thread like swarming bees.

Yeah, the Cavemen and Flat Earthers will be in their element apportioning all the blame to China and none of the blame to the Yanks and their conga-line of mindless, brain-dead supporters.

Australian politicians, Israeli and Yank-apologists to a man and women, will attack the Chinese while they take their money! Hypocrisy is a common trait of both Australians and Americans as is profound stupidity.

When will the Abbott Government decide to build a land-bridge to the U.S. is what I want to know? Who wants Australian beaches when U.S. beaches and Wall-to-Wall MacDonalds beckon?

Better still, when will Canberra under Pope Abbott and Mother Superior Bishop start a feasibility study on towing Australia to America's West Coast?

Australians and Yanks are blood-brothers. Both of our countries were bloodbaths and the citizens of both still involve themselves in killing anyone who gets in their capitalist road!

David,

And the issues are, in this case ?

Which country has made the moves ?

Which country seems most likely to de-stabilise sensitive situations in the East China Sea ?

And in the South China Sea, come to think of it ?

But feel free to kick your dog, that can be fun too.

Joe

One can only speculate on why Phillip Coggin wants to muddy the water in China's favour? There are hundreds of border disputes all around the world Gibraltar, Prussia, Romania, the Falklands, but nobody in their right mind is willing to push the issue because it will mean war.

There were even border disputes between some of the smaller nations over islands in the South China Sea but none of these nations wanted a war with each other so none of them pushed the issue. Then along comes China which now claims almost all of the islands in the SCS, even those right off the coastlines of Vietnam and the Philippines.

Western pseudo intellectuals may cry "no blood for oil" but the Chinese are a lot more sensible than that. In a world of diminishing resources it is critical for any advanced society to ensure it's economic survival by grabbing as much resource laden territory as it can. China is now in the situation which faced Germany and Japan in which it was a latecomer to the idea of economic and territorial expansion. Like Germany and Japan, it is now flexing its military muscles and is trying to bully its smaller neighbours into stealing seabed territory it knows that it does not own.

China is not interested in negotiating with its smaller neighbours an equitable division of territory in the SCS. Nor is it interested in taking its claim to an international court which settles territorial claims because it knows that it would lose.

So the Chinese are using force to claim the entire SCS and Phillip Coggin can see nothing wrong with that. All he an do is make excuses.

The Yanks have just closed down car manufacturing in Australia, no ifs or buts. Holden and Ford are gone. The economic impact will be profound.

China is angered that Australia is supporting the U.S. in its Asian pivot (which is aimed at restricting China's growth) and is also supporting Japan over the disputed Islands. If China decides to stop buying minerals from Australia in retaliation we will be up the creek without a paddle.

Could I suggest that all the Yank-apologists and the China-knockers put their brains into gear just for once and think about the negative messages that they are sending to China.

Why are we biting the hands that feed us?

"Yank-apologists and the China-knockers"

David, don't you realise that you are exactly the same as the people you criticise, with just the "Yank" and the "China" swapped around? Anyone who takes such a one-sided view of geo-political realities is clearly ignorant of how the world actually works.

The linked forum is great for a grown-up discussion of these issues.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/geo-strategic-issues/chinese-air-defence-identification-zone-east-china-sea-12877/

"I'm not very knowledgable in this field, so I don't usually comment on these subjects," says Stezza on another thread.

Amen to that! You're not knowledgeable in this field either. And you can't spell!

Best if you stick to medical things.

David,

Isn't abuse fun ?!

So what are the issues here ? Which country is pushing the envelope ? Did I miss something ? Has Japan declared an exclusion zone around the disputed islands ?

Do the heirs to the Manchu Empire really have 'sphere of influences privileges', in the modern world ? Aren't all countries of equal standing ?

Or has imperialism suddenly become good, since after all, it's one of yours ?

Cheers,

Joe

Ouch you got me! What a wit you have. Remind me what your expertise is in?

Why don't you read through the forum I linked, you never know you may find yourself edumacated! Warning, people actually discuss facts and issues, just like Joe is trying to get you to do. Can you handle that?

Australia got by with China's enmity before DavidG and we can do it again. They are acting just like Imperial Japan prior to WW2 but at least in that time we were not as stupid as we are today by letting hundreds of thousands of Chinese citizens immigrate into our country to stab us in the back if hostilities arise.

Lego, Chinese people have been emigrating to other countries for centuries. When and where have they been involved in stabbing in the back the citizens of the countries they have emigrated to?

Your pathetic xenophobia matches that of other mindless minions like Loudmouth and Steeza. None of you can get your tiny minds around the fact that the U.S. is the major enemy of the world, not China!

To avoid the approaching nuclear holocaust, which will be initiated by the U.S., requires people with minds that work and have an awareness of duplicitous American geo-political strategies and propaganda.

The world must reject American imperialism and its attempt to control the world. China must be allowed to grow because, with Russia, it's all that stands between us and American Fascism.

A world run by America would be hell on Earth: people kept in cages, people being tortured and rendered, millions being spied upon and killed, vast destruction, the rule of the Oligarchs, etc.

The struggle for human rights and freedoms has begun again. America is the enemy!

Wake up.

David,

Thank you for mentioning human rights and freedoms.

It's not really the issue here, but are you suggesting that China would offer a better deal on those precious achievements than the US ?

China 'must be allowed to grow' ?! Who is stopping it ? Or do you mean that it has some sort of fascist right to find 'lebensraum', to invade other countries' territory ?

You really are an apologist for fascism, my friend.

Joe

"Argue not with fools, frauds, and fanatics. Seek instead better companions!"

I'm sorry, Joe. I don't have the time or the inclination to argue with you. There would be no point. Your mind, clearly, is set in concrete.

And besides, I have more important things to do.

Cheers.

Common sense 1, David 0 :)

What a shame that the Cavemen/Flat Earthers can't see that the ADIZ issue has two components.

One is the issue of counterclaims about who owns some god-forsaken Islands in the China Sea. This is a minor issue.

The other has to do with the continuance of U.S. attempts to turn every local world conflict into an issue which might allow it to drop nuclear bombs on one of its so-called enemies and show just how powerful it is (or how stupid it is depending on how you look at it).

Australians, typically, always look at the minor issues and concentrate on them. That's because America is seen to be close to Godliness, Jesus on the Cross, Superman, Mickey Mouse, John Wayne, Marylin Monroe and Batman. What it does and what it is really doing just doesn't matter to American-apologists. They don't even know what imperialism is!

How come most Australians can't see the truth about the U.S. Perhaps they are members of a Cargo Cult and they expect the U.S. to deliver bigtime!

More likely, perhaps, they are just dumb!

A nuclear war is coming despite the attempts of the mindless to hope otherwise. The evidence abounds and no amount of head burying in sand behaviour or distribution of red herrings will change it.

Shooting the messenger is the action of fools. If you can't or won't help to stop the approaching holocaust, GET OUT OF THE BlOODY WAY!

Hi again David,

Nice to see you're back.

I suppose if a country doesn't want to start a dispute, or raise tensions, then they don't. Simple as that.

Ummmm ...... but who has unilaterally declared an exclusion zone ? Who has raised the temperature of this situation ? Which country has simply backed up its allies, as required by its long-standing alliance commitments ?

So which country kicked this off ? Which country has been waving a big stick in the East China Sea over 'god-forsaken islands' in the East China Sea and the South China Sea, islands with two advantages to whoever controls them: potential oil and gas underneath them, AND the chance to unilaterally declare 200-mile exclusion zones around them, effectively giving the claimant control over vast portions of those seas ?

Is the US claiming either of these rights ? Or, let's see, is ............ China ? Against all their neighbors ? From Japan and South Korea down to Vietnam, Brunei and the Philippines ? Not a bad day's work in antagonising.

Take your time, David :)

Joe

Prior to WW2, there were intelligent people who were warning about the militarization of Germany and what it portended.

And at the same time, there were also a large group, shall we call them 'appeasers' who poured scorn on the messengers who gave warning about the imperial ambitions of Germany and its bonkers leader, Hitler.

Move the scenario forward a number of decades and, in 2013 we find we have another nation which has been growing its military, not for a few years, but since 1945.

At first, it was thought that the U.S. was one of us. But as decades slipped by, and the U.S spent more and more money on its military, the more intelligent among us began to be worried by the growth of the American War Machine and its apparent love of war.

At first, we rejected the thought that the U.S. might be up to some mischief. Then we wondered if the U.S. had decided to takeover where Germany had left off.

Those who can write and think, began to ask questions? Why did the U.S. need such a huge army? Why was it spending more money than it had? Why was it always initiating wars then, after occupation, why didn't it leave? Why did it need nearly a thousand military bases? Why was it attacking nations that has large oil reserves? Why was it using attack drones all over the world and killing thousands of civilians? Why did it refuse to be bound by the ICC or count casualties?

Continued:

The 'Appeasers in Germany' were replaced by the 'Stupids'! The 'Stupids' refuse to think about the criminal actions of the U.S. and what motivates them, and they continuously whitewash America no matter what it does?

Kill 20 - 30 million people, no problem. Torture people and render them, no problem! Keep people in cages without trial, so what's new? Use chemical and radio-active weapons, how fantastic! Finance despots and Crooked Kings and terrorist groups, no issue! Applaud while the U.S. tried to squeeze the life out of China and Russia which could lead to a nuclear war!

Yeah, the 'Stupids' are profoundly stupid! And they often have loud-mouths.

In Europe, the 'Appeasers' were shown to be fools. The 'Stupids' will suffer the same fate.

But it will be too late to punish them because our world will be uninhabitable!

Them's the breaks, I guess!

Thanks Stupids!

Yes, David, you are completely correct: before the War there were powers, who felt aggrieved by the West, by the US and Britain in particular, and who scorned democracy, and who rapidly militarised, amidst a barrage of propaganda that they had been done wrong but their day was coming.

Sounds familiar ?

And there were those who sought to appease them. Looked in a mirror lately, David ?

And all they needed was some trumped-up provocation and they were away.

Hmmmm, I wonder if, anywhere in the East China and the South China Seas, there could possibly be grounds for such a provocation ?

Any ideas, David ?

Washington Drives the World Toward War

Paul Craig Roberts

Washington has had the US at war for 12 years: Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, Pakistan, Yemen, and almost Syria, which could still happen, with Iran waiting in the wings. These wars have been expensive in terms of money, prestige, and deaths and injuries of both US soldiers and the attacked civilian populations. None of these wars appears to have any compelling reason or justifiable explanation. The wars have been important to the profits of the military/security complex. The wars have provided cover for the construction of a Stasi police state in America, and the wars have served Israel’s interest by removing obstacles to Israel’s annexation of the entire West Bank and southern Lebanon.

As costly and destructive as these wars have been, they are far below the level of a world war, much less a world war against nuclear armed opponents.

The fatal war for humanity is the war with Russia and China toward which Washington is driving the US and Washington’s NATO and Asian puppet states. There are a number of factors contributing to Washington’s drive toward the final war, but the overarching one is the doctrine of American exceptionalism.

According to this self-righteous doctrine, America is the indispensable country. What this means is that the US has been chosen by history to establish the hegemony of secular “democratic capitalism” over the world. The primacy of this goal places the US government above traditional morality and above all law, both its own and international.

Thus, no one in the US government has been held accountable for unprovoked aggression against other countries and for attacking civilian populations, unambiguous war crimes under international law and the Nuremberg standard. Neither has anyone in the US government been held accountable for torture, a prohibited crime under US law and the Geneva Conventions. Neither has anyone been held accountable for numerous violations of constitutional rights--spying without warrants, warrantless searches, violations of habeas corpus, murder of citizens without due process, denial of legal representation, conviction on secret evidence. The list is long.

Continued:

American citizens seem to have little, if any, influence on their government or even awareness of its intentions. Moreover, there is no organized opposition behind which Americans could rally to stop Washington’s drive toward world war. Hope, if there is any, would seem to lie with Washington’s European and Asian puppets. What interests do these governments have in putting the existence of their countries at risk for no other purpose than to help Washington acquire hegemony over the world? Cannot they realize that Washington’s game is a death-dealing one for them?

Holy mackerel!

<<Washington Drives the World Toward War>>

<<Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, Pakistan, Yemen, and almost Syria, which could still happen, with Iran waiting in the wings>>

<<the wars have served Israel’s interest>>

<<The fatal war for humanity is the war with Russia and China toward which Washington is driving the US and Washington’s NATO and Asian puppet states>>

When I read David's --fire and brimstone eternal damnation --posts (sermons?)I can't help thinking about those Jehovah Witness brochures which predict the apocalypse and the coming final war between the forces of darkness and the forces of light.

The only real difference is David and the Jehovah Witness differ on which side Satan is leading.

Hi David,

So ...... because the US has done wrong, therefore others can too ?

Is that your best shot ?

Joe
www.firstsources.info

By David Armstrong

Harper's Magazine, 0017789X, Oct 2002, Vol. 305, Issue 1829

"Few writers are more ambitious than the writers of government policy papers, and few policy papers are more ambitious than Dick Cheney’s masterwork. It has taken several forms over the last decade and is in fact the product of several ghostwriters (notably Paul Wolfowitz and Colin Powell), but Cheney has been consistent in his dedication to the ideas in the documents that bear his name, and he has maintained a close association with the ideologues behind them. Let us, therefore, call Cheney the author, and this series of documents the Plan.

The Plan was published in unclassified form most recently under the title of Defense Strategy for the 1990s, (pdf) as Cheney ended his term as secretary of defense under the elder George Bush in early 1993, but it is, like “Leaves of Grass,” a perpetually evolving work. This June it was a presidential lecture in the form of a commencement address at West Point, and in July it was leaked to the press as yet another Defense Planning Guidance (this time under the pen name of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld). It will take its ultimate form, though, as America’s new national security strategy – and Cheney et al. will experience what few writers have even dared dream: their words will become our reality.

The Plan is for the United States to rule the world. The overt theme is unilateralism, but it is ultimately a story of domination. It calls for the United States to maintain its overwhelming military superiority and prevent new rivals from rising up to challenge it on the world stage. It calls for dominion over friends and enemies alike. It says not that the United States must be more powerful, or most powerful, but that it must be absolutely powerful."

PS. Of course, intellectual luminaries like Loudmouth will quarrel with this view by an American but I'll go with the experts, not the uninformed chatters!

Hi David,

Not that it's relevant to this topic, but just to bring you up to speed:

* George Bush is no longer President.

* Cheney is no longer Vice-President.

* the US is far weaker now than it appeared to be in 2003.

* Other countries are far stronger now than they were in 2003.

Now, on that basis, is there any chance you might respond to the topic ?

Or have you been moving towards it, by preparing the rhetorical ground for support for an alternative imperialism which, in your view, has the right to replace the US as the major imperialist power ?

Just trying to get a hold on your thinking :)

Joe
www.firstsources.info

"The only winner in the islets dispute is the Chinese navy, which by now has overwhelming and unquestioning domestic support for naval modernization and fleet expansion. Tokyo’s confrontational attitude has resurrected painful memories of past atrocities and imperialist arrogance during the two modern wars against China. It is just a matter time before an aging and less agile Japan slips badly, and the Chinese forces move in – hopefully for no more than those tiny outcrops.

The strategic pivot policy promises only costly military spending and humiliating setbacks ahead. Japanese policymakers should accept a world court judgment, if only to prevent future losses of legitimate national territory, which is more vulnerable than any military strategist is ready to admit in public. The long-term interests of Japan and the US are better served by a maritime security treaty and resource partnership with China and Russia, not a self-defeating rivalry against these East Asian powers.

If a strategic retreat is not implemented sooner than later, the Senkaku-Diaoyu dispute could rapidly escalate into the last battle of the Pacific War and the first shots fired in World War III. Diplomacy, as the art of compromise, is needed more than ever to prevent the unthinkable."

Yoichi Shimatsu, a Hong Kong-based journalist, is former editor of the Japan Times Weekly in Tokyo . His article is well worth reading (especially by American Apologists and those who can't think laterally) and is featured on GlobalResearch.ca

It really does seem that you are actually arguing for Chinese imperialism. Your mindset is shared by many of the ultra nationalist pro-war PLA members, who is able to interpret history anyway they want to justify an expansionist imperial policy, all somehow to fault of every other country they decide to attack.

"A more troubling example of irredentism can be seen in an article which appeared on the website of the Chinese news agency Zhongguo Xinwenshe (Chinese, English translation here) in July this year. Entitled ‘Revealing the Six Wars China Must Fight in the Coming 50 Years’ , the article is another manifestation of the hyper-nationalist attitude seen within some parts of the PLA. However, that an article of this nature was carried by a PRC national news agency suggests that it was approved at a very high level.

The six ‘inevitable’ wars suggested in the article’s title are presented in the chronological order in which they will take place:

The war to unify Taiwan (2020–2025)
The war to recover the various islands of the South China Sea (2025–2030)
The war to recover southern Tibet (2035–2040)
The war to recover Diaoyutai and the Ryukyus (2040–2045)
The war to unify Outer Mongolia (2045–2050)
The war to recover the territory seized by Russia (2055–2060)"

http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/chinas-six-wars-in-the-next-50-years/

THIS IS COPIED FROM THE SIDEBAR ON MY BLOG.

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So there are two David G.s, one (hidden beneath all the rhetoric) peace-loving, the other an apologist for Chinese imperialism, 'lebensraum', the right to rule others because it is big ?

The first, hidden, David G. can write: 'It is for folk who are genuinely involved in the search for truth, people who, if they could, would like to completely change the world and get rid of the current motley collection of Predators and Parasites and Warlords who run it to advantage themselves' - and leave off the ending: '... including the Chinese.' How are they so different from other imperialisms, including the former Japanese version, with its similar push for 'lebensraum' ? Or the US or British ? They all have their apologists, who think they have the right to rule.

The other is a perfect example of the appeasement of power. As Stezza points out, the Chinese take a long view of their ultimate control of most of Asia and the Pacific. Personally, I think they will hurry up that time-table, with friends like David G. - and they'd better because their demographic time-bomb is going to hit long before that agenda can be enforced. By 2050, their population will be comparatively very old and getting older, and will be starting to decline.

Be careful of what horses you back, David :)

Joe

Dear Joe,
if you could answer the following it would help me to help you!

a. How many fairies do you have at the bottom of your garden?
ans: 1.
ans: 10.
ans: I can't count past ten.

b. When you talk to God does he say to you:
ans: Your Highness.
ans: tries hard but just doesn't get it!
ans: We don't want no Loud-mouths in our heavenly choir!

c. When a female wolf-whistles you do you?
ans: put on deodorant?
ans: blow your nose?
ans: engage in self-indulgence?

d. When you hear the word 'Obama' do you:
ans: put boot-polish on your pride and joy?
ans: Sing 'Old Man River'?
ans: look up 'enhancement' in the Yellow Pages?

e. When you hear the word 'America' do you?
ans: curse God because he didn't make you an American?
ans: curse Australia because it hasn't joined the American Union?
ans: feel like going to the nearest MacDonalds to pig out?

f. When you hear the world 'war' do you feel?
ans: excited?
ans: depressed?
ans: show me the wonderful photograph of Hiroshima again!

g. When you hear the song: If I Ruled The World do you feel?
ans: antipathy?
ans: bilious?
ans: Like Hitler?

I await your revelations. Think carefully. I have had some training in psychology.

Your friend.