SPQR & Onjab,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm humbled by them.

grateful,

<<On the one hand, [atheists] claim that their disbelief is evidence-based. On the other hand, they readily betray an ignorance of the beliefs thy are critical of.>>

The claim of theists that atheists reject as unsupported by the evidence, is the claim that a god or gods exist. Belief or disbelief of any other claims that follow this claim are either on hold until the original claim can be supported, or are rejected because they depend on the existence of that god being demonstrated.

If, on the other hand, you are suggesting that the evidence of your god's existence is hidden in the details of Islam or the Qur'an, or that it can be found cumulatively after having studied Islamic teachings in-depth, then either your supposedly omniscient and omnipotent god is somehow a lousy communicator, or he is not very interested in reaching so many of us anyway, in which case why should we bother?

<<AJ for example, is concerned not to disclose his own sources in regard to the teachings of Islam...>>

Oh, but I did. My source was you. It was your claim about the god of Islam that I was responding to. I have "sidestepped" nothing.

<<...and yet he is prepared to say the main reason for his disbelief is “because there isn’t sufficient evidence to support the existence of a god.”>>

It is not the job of atheists to run around looking for evidence of gods in the face of no prima facie evidence. Nor should they have to study every religion in-depth. Does your rejection of the other 4000 or so gods that you don't believe in result from having studied them all?

<<And what sort of evidence do atheist look for?>>

I don't know what evidence would convince me of the existence of a god. It would be arrogant of me to assume that I knew. What I do know, however, is that if a god did exist, then they'd know what it would take to convince me of their existence.

I feel a little bleak ...

Most here I suspect, recognise and admire the Dali Lama. He acts from the principles of a religion few here I would hazard believe.

Everald Compton is a good man endeavouring to achieve something worthy.

Fethullah Gullen is a good man endeavouring to achieve something worthy.

Does it matter what their religion is if they identify and assume the best parts of it?

We witness and criticise, as we should, truly ghastly representatives of religion. Conversely we should recognise good men of their faith, irrespective of whether we believe in any god.

Perhaps it would be better if religion was not mentioned, but "unfortunately" this is the credential both these good men fly. But it is also a necessary credential in their work for interfaith dialogue.

Whatever we think of religion, Interfaith dialogue is vitally important in today's world of contesting, even violently conflicting religious belief systems

AJ Philips, you write,

<<“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Your butterfly parable doesn’t work because it ignores the fact that an omnipotent and omniscient god should be able to devise a better system to achieve its GOALS, or could skip the suffering part altogether. It is the equivalent of excusing a parent who locks their child up under the stairs and tortures them as a method of helping them to grow as a person.>>

You are right in that the issue is not so much what Islam’s position is on an issue such as slavery but its existence. But your argument collapses as soon as one asks: What goals? What goals would you have God seeking?

In other words, the validity of your statement that “an omnipotent and omniscient god should be able to devise a better system to achieve its GOALS” can not be evaluated until we know what you mean by the goals that God is supposed to be achieving. In other words, we cannot discuss whether there is any better way ...a “better system” as you put it…, until we have a clear understanding of what the objective or purpose of our existence is supposed to be under the “God hypothesis”.

cont..
AJ,

While you ponder this question, lets consider what you mean when you say the “main reason" for your disbelief " is because there isn’t sufficient evidence to support the existence of a god.”

How do you treat the evidence? In response to my statement that “according to Islam, there is no imperfection, all is as it should. We are perfectly human”, you state:

<<This is a tautology and a paradox. It sounds poetic, but is essentially meaningless. In other words, we are ‘perfectly imperfect’. How can one possibly be ‘imperfectly imperfect’?>>

Of course i didn’t say we are “perfectly imperfect”. I said we are “perfectly human”. You shamelessly change my wording to suit your own argument. This is dishonest. So much for the impartial scientific approach of an atheist.

The shallowness of your argument is also betrayed by your resort to childish Dawkinesque diatribe towards the end of your post (or is it inspired by Sam Harris?). Yet, you evidently have your admirers, including your muck-raking mate SPQR for whom your approach is a noble example of atheist critique. Let’s stick to rational, honest and mature discourse.

i see no..reason..to/rethink..or repost..my reply..to..one..of the more thoughtful..atheists..[aj]..here..[plus..the ass...and/the sap][who/i..MUST..thank..specifically][their pushing..helped..me/re-think]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15786#274098

who..to/be fair..arnt,,dumb..only deceived
[im also pleased..that danielle..posted..a great post..at this thread

i especially..need to thank..the author..for the topic
and am gratefull..to..his namesake..[and foxie..[dearest]..of all]..i hope..your TWO..operation's..goes well..[my/belle]

it..is clear..that some..neurons..in my/brain..[thus gods brain]..
and gods brain..includes your 'brains'..collectively..we know everything..there is to/be known[both..in fiction..and reality]

now..none..of you/know..me..and at best we only know things about you..because..the opportunity..to communicate..but briefly..happen..as we went along our life path..like a smell/neuron..briefly..joining with a...taste neuron..[like lsd]

some..really believe..to know..the reason..for life=nothing..
this is because in/their role..of life..they didnt..live it[thus some know..the joys of parenting..[others the misery]

[why this is so..is because thats..not their reason..for being..[some parts of gods/brain..are simply there..for amusement..others there to think..yet others there run the heart..and nothing else..others to dream..somehow..i got the ..dirty end..of the stick.. [him most rejected/see issiah]

baring the grandchildren..[for example]..2..who love me true
the rest of the world[including my children..and life partner..have rejected..me..completely]..but i..know by my life..they too will reject..me..[in time]

for example..only last night..i was told off..by the eldest
for 'stealing'..'their;..food..[maybe..in total[over the last 6 months]..of 4 spoons..of butter..a cup..of milk..8packrets of crisps..and about 28 briskets/lollies/sweets

they have mortgaged..my house..[over spend credit they havnt got]and now..live here rent free..but do pay utilities/rates..yet individually..they are good nice people[but lately..they have been gossiping..about their father[to many people..plus..in laws..who/have never met,me]..[maybe even online..but especially each other/..but i have been too busy trying to save the world..to worry about it..for a second..

till..last night..when it became clear..[and the grandaughter neuron
connected but briefly..with the grandfather neuron]..and i saw the light][i say it now..because..in/time..it will inevitably come-out..because my story..my life..like yours..*is no secret..to spirit

collectively..we are god finding out about..god
that is what..this neuron..KNOWS..[not]..BECAUSE..it isnt a literate part of gods mind..that..NEEDS..to know..but others are]..but the others are too busy..gossiping..about what the other neurons are doing..

[now much of the gossip..is imagined]..and
god being omnipresent..has all this ILLUSORY junk..in front/of mind..too..[were i more clever..i could fictionalize/rationalize/instead of internalize..BUT the lies..run globally..[for god]

life..is just gods way..of sorting the good/use-full/living loving[light]..from the bad..[illusions/delusions hates/wasted effort..darkness..etc]..god..shall/make..pearl..from..even this miserable lie..f..

these atheist..parts of every brain..dont care about the 'big picture'..their there simply..to do their..'thing'..and that,,is it

[they dont reason..they simply do as..they know[thats all.THEIR ,meant..to know]

mere automons..they are simply..adjoining..neurons..not being.,..in their looop..its like any group..[of specialists]..each simply doing..what god created them to be.

so why waste any thought..on it
why waste emotion..on nuthinness..why fight wars on nothing..

im..so over..the lot..of it..[its]..only..knowing death has no fix
and..in fact would make things far worse..because of the many neurons..that all ready know..who would simply join me in complete deletion..[if that were possable]..fortuitously..it isnt gods will[none can escape..not even..by death

and thats what..it is that really frightens..EVEN..the most cl;ever of you[if you could be honest about it]..its thy greatness you fear

but..god sends me his comforting neurons
but if these are delusion//please TELL..ME the PROOF*
i know god is real..and you art god..pleasse PROOVE..god is my delusion

please PROVE..death..ends this hell
and i will bother you no longer..JUST PROVE GOD DONT EZIST..im gone..[in a second]..

this hell could end?..PLEASE PROVE IT??

please..i cant bear the pain/burden..any..longer
im sick..of the lies..JUST THE FACTS MAAM..just the F'ACTS.