Hi Grateful,

<<re: Salwa al Mutairi --and sex slaves>>

What this illustrates is that your New Age --liberal reading of the Quran is very much a minority position. In fact, I would go as far as to say that what you practice is not Islam but Gratefulism.

It also illustrates is the chameleonic nature of Islam. If is in a minority position like currently in Oz you'll most often hear/see espoused a soft version of Islam . But when it is in a dominant position then its leaders will suddenly wake-up that:
-- the sex slavery of infidels is OK
-- Outlawing other places of worship is Ok.
--and a little later in the piece, (not peace!), killing infidels is OK

I noted your cheerpicking effort
1) One shouldn't imprison or starve slaves
2)One shouldn't overworked slaves
3)And one should call them brother or daughter

BUT WHAT YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN IS WHERE ISLAM OUTLAWS SLAVERY!

Here's some teachings you overlooked:
1) "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty." [Quran:33:50]

Note the words "WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN AS BOOTY"!

2) "Narrated Kuraib:the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, 'Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?' He said, 'Have you really?' She replied in the affirmative. He said, 'You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles.'
[BUKHARI'S HADITH - Vol. 3-#765]

Here a woman frees a slave girl, but Muhammad says that she would have gotten more (heavenly) reward if she had given the slave one of her uncles, thus keeping the slave in slavery.

3) "Ibn Umar reported the prophet as saying: "If a slave marries without the permission of his master, his marriage is null and void." [ABU DAWUD'S HADITH #2074]

Cheers!

grateful,

If we’re going to have a productive discussion, then you’re really going to have keep track of where we’re at a lot better than this.

<<But your argument collapses as soon as one asks: What goals?>>

Um, the goals you mentioned:

"Sometimes struggles are exactly what we need in our lives. If Allah allowed us to go through our lives without any difficulties it would cripple us and we would never be able to fly!" (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15820#273955)

I assumed the bit about flying was in reference to becoming better people (hence the, “…tortures them as a method of helping them to grow as a person”, in my analogy). If not, then please clarify.

Either way, though, my argument still doesn’t collapse because (as I pointed out before, in not-so-many-words) by insisting that we cannot know the mind of Allah, you are committing the special pleading fallacy and are ‘having your cake and eating it too’ by simultaneously assuming that you can know his mind enough to attribute the good to him. You change your story when it suits you. That’s not how a rational mind works.

<<In other words, the validity of your statement that “an omnipotent and omniscient god should be able to devise a better system to achieve its GOALS” can not be evaluated until we know what you mean by the goals that God is supposed to be achieving.>>

Bzzzt!

Furthermore, you conveniently overlook my second point: that Allah could skip this infliction of evil upon us (or his apparent indifference to it) by just taking the ones he wants with him up to heaven now, and doing away with those he already knows won’t get there. Being omniscient, Allah already knows everything that’s going to happen anyway, so letting it play out is both pointless and cruel. And as I pointed out previously, if we’re going to be made perfect when we go to heaven anyway, then there is no point in any of the turning-into-butterflies that we do here on earth.

Continued…

…Continued

<<…lets consider what you mean when you say the “main reason" for your disbelief " is because there isn’t sufficient evidence to support the existence of a god.” … How do you treat the evidence?>>

I’ll get to your ‘exhibit A’ in a moment, but it’s worth pointing out here that even if you could bring into question my treatment of evidence, it still wouldn’t negate any lack of evidence on your behalf. This is a red herring.

<<Of course i didn’t say we are “perfectly imperfect”. I said we are “perfectly human”. You shamelessly change my wording to suit your own argument. This is dishonest.>>

Let’s go back a bit then, shall we.

We were talking about the imperfection of our world - which is meaningless in this context without reference to the imperfection of humans. Apparently understanding this, you reply by saying that there is no imperfection according to Islam because everything (imperfect as it is) is the way it was intended to be, and that we are “perfectly human“. (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15820#274012). In other words, nothing is imperfect because Allah wanted it to be imperfect, and humans are perfectly imperfect.By ignoring the context (ironically) and focusing only on what we had *literally* said, you have created a strawman argument. You quote-mined. Now THAT is dishonest.

<<The shallowness of your argument is also betrayed by your resort to childish Dawkinesque diatribe towards the end of your post … Let’s stick to rational, honest and mature discourse.>>

Until you can demonstrate why my final comments were a “diatribe” that was “childish” and something that I needed to “resort” to (implying vacuousness on my behalf), this is nothing but an ad hominem attack.

Let's get this straight, grateful: you claim to want rational, honest and mature discussion, yet so far, you are the only one who has resorted to dishonesty (by suggesting that I was sidestepping earlier, and now - ironically - accusing me of dishonesty) and an assortment of logical fallacies, including ‘goal post shifting’, ‘special pleading’, and now the ‘red herring’, the strawman, and the ad hominem.

Hmmm…

sap
your reply is here
aj..yours is there too

and the ass..you too
[its ten..hours..till..i can reply..any further..

..on..this thread
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15786#274128

of course..the lamb-island thread..remain available
[im..over explaining]..for now...[im..gutted][by the recent/ignorance's revealed..by good people..[mine..not yours]

then there is..the joy..threat
but their at earlier posts

im..not into new topic's..[even..though..i..know just saying that..there is one with my name onit]

last but by no means least..im not grateful*
but gratefull..know..im..grateful..too

bless you my other..[s]
looks like the great southlands..[nor the cyber realm]..dont get..the message

so im..going to.do..a jonah
[run away hide play old music/..LOUD*]
debating whether to..go walkabout..but im resisting the spirit/urgings

yours joshua*nine

anyhow..have a new LINK*..for you[..the inside scoop?]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15786&page=0#274098

anyhow..i..know you dont follow links
so..i will re-post..the EARLIER link..info*

enjoy..please write something..call..me mad...anything
i..notified govt..of this day...in....1996..[their ready..if you are!

but lets examine
<<..1)..One shouldn't imprison..or starve slaves>>

nor workers/nor beasts..nor...servants/nor...parents..
nor*god..nor..your children/your-old..infirm..nor imbecile..
nor..beast..THAT>>YE DID,..to/the..least/was done..to the most

[got..it*now...?..[indeed..DO NOT>>ABUSE*..ANY BODY]

not/even criminals..imf-fidels..nor/the godless..bwankers..or the soft-dic/press..THEY ALL*..have their uses..BUT ALL..*ARE sustained..to live..OF*..GOD HIMSELF..

GET THAT?
[that YOU..do/to..the least..ye do..to
him

..DO YOU HEAR ME..*debt-slave*
peasant..soon..to/be serf?

glory hound's?...you
slave..*to porn/sex booze/-drugs ego/race/creed/righteousness..godlessness?

<<..2)One shouldn't..[have[..overworked*slaves.>>be they..THY*wife..nor husband..[in..holy-day..or serving other
while..they feast/pray/play/pay..no child..nor debt slave..[nor hookers..nor blogger's..nor serfs

NO_ONE..not/even..each..other*

AM..I..being..CLEAR HEAR?

<<3)And one..should..*call them brother..or daughter>>

*HUGE_KEY*
read-on*..[cut from end

3)..<<."If a slave marries..without the permission/of his master,
his marriage is null and void."..[ABU DAWUD'S HADITH #2074]>>

OK..THERE YOU GO..recall..great*full..SAYING..to you
you SHALL..not*say SLAVE..[where did/that word.,come from?

Here's some..teachings you overlooked:
1) "Prophet,"{is one who..receives/revelation..
FROM outside sources..ie from herd-mind..[ego]..from demons
as much as angels..*SO MUCH DEPENDS..ON..y'OUR THOUGHTS..[more of the SAME thinking..shall come]

dowries=respecting,,the value..of the loss
a high dowry..indicates..YOU FEEL..they are worth..MORE*

[i feel your loss..and respect..the gift of myne[and thyne]..its old school/stuff..[we used to/do it/too]..but heck..i wouldnt give you two cents for,,far..too many..of you

[but..THANKFULLY;.to god your BEYOND values]

MANY XTIANS LOOT>>war booty."
at least the muslims..can find the CAUSE..of the error

<<[Quran:33:50]..Note the words.."WHOM GOD..HAS/GIVEN AS BOOTY"!>>

im..sure its an error/of men..[translation..SOME-how]..not the messenger

<2)..edited]..He said, 'You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl)..to one of your maternal uncles.'
[BUKHARI'S HADITH - Vol. 3-#765]..>>

ie gifted..the treasure..as booty..[in..lue of respectful dowry]
ass jesus would have said/it..its better TO SERVE OTHER*[not your self]..

but clearly..the MESS-ANGER..has been misheard..if you take him to/.say anything else..[islam..means peace/justice/grace/mercy]

hint hint
jesus told me..the same thing..yet..if your..being a jackass
or simply..serving the masters agenda..i call..a spade a spade..
not a brrr-other..[even..if..JESUS himself said..the SAME*..re the money/changing thieves

THE POOR you will have with/you*..ALWAYS*

BUT WHAT..YOU HAVEN'T..SHOWN IS..WHERE..present..[western/REALITY OUTLAWS SLAVERY...by works!

your being..enslaved..UNDER DEBT*/to..DEBT..as we speak

Cheers!
yushi-nine

Why We Are Afraid, A 1400 Year Secret, by Dr Bill Warner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y