I think slight correction is due, grateful.

In reading your question, "How do you treat the evidence?, I had apparently missed the all important "the" in that question, and subsequently, had responded as if you were bringing my treatment of evidence in general into question. I would be embarrassed about this blunder had it not been for the fact that, in making such a mistake, I was being generous by giving you more credit than you were actually due.

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that the teachings and tenets of Islam are not evidence for it. They are simply claims, and unsubstantiated claims at that. Whether or not we are "perfectly human" is not evidence of anything.

To think that the doctrine of your faith is also evidence for it is painfully circular.

Amazingly, you don't seem to understand what evidence is. Nor, therefore, would I expect that you could possibly appreciate the extent of evidence that would be required to demonstrate such a grand claim as the existence of a god. Forget anecdotal and testimonial evidence, we'd be talking a large and objectively determinable set of facts that only align with your belief.

Dear Grateful,

Late to this thread, I have just read your posts and thoroughly enjoyed reading how you bravely defend Islam - and if this isn't Islam but Gratefulism, so much the better because nobody can follow the exact same religious path anyway: strictly speaking, the only Muslim ever to live was Prophet Muhammad, peace-be-upon-him.

The so-called "problem of evil" doesn't exist, but only arise from improper use of language:

Yes, people have difficulty with pain and suffering, but that doesn't make pain evil, nor is pleasure necessarily good.
Only God is truly good [Mark 10:18] and there is no need or reason for God to conduct the world on the basis of the prejudices of humans.

Islam, as it is commonly understood (but please correct me if I'm wrong), is superior than atheism because it takes a longer-term approach, beyond the constraints of one's current life-time.

Yet, Islam still seems (to lay people like myself) to base its theology on longer-term reward-and-punishment, where reward for doing good corresponds to the human concept of pleasure and punishment for doing evil corresponds to the human concept of pain and suffering.

While that is quantitatively better then atheism, I fail to see the qualitative advantage:

Isn't heaven nothing but a larger-scale temptation and isn't hell nothing but a larger-scale place of purification? Then shouldn't we all say that hell is better than heaven?!

Eagerly awaiting your answers.

Under One Mullah,

This is in response to the parts of your post that I could translate:

1)<< but lets examine....One shouldn't imprison..or starve slaves...
nor workers/nor beasts..nor...servants/nor...parents..
nor*god..nor..your children/your-old..infirm..nor imbecile..
nor..beast..THAT>>YE DID,..to/the..least/was done..to the most
[got..it*now...?..[indeed..DO NOT>>ABUSE*..ANY BODY]
not/even criminals..imf-fidels..nor/the godless..bwankers..or the soft-dic>>

No. You haven't "got it" --the sacred writings of Islam say nothing like that. That's more like Deepak Chopra or Shirley MacLaine.

2) <<..<<."If a slave marries..without the permission/of his master,
his marriage is null and void."..[ABU DAWUD'S HADITH #2074]>>
OK..THERE YOU GO..recall..great*full..SAYING..to you
you SHALL..not*say SLAVE.>>

NO. It does not follow that because there were SOME --SOME --standards on how one should treat slaves that slavery didn't exist, or that other inhuman treatments were not meted out to slaves.

Next you will be inferring that because Islam talks of all humans being brothers or sisters there was no concept of infidel or dhimmi.

3) <<.Outlawing other places of worship is Ok..killing infidels is OK...the ,media told me so*>>

One question: how many legal churches are there is Saudi Arabia?

Read your posts is like piecing together one of those ancient scrolls which has fragmented and from which a lot of the segments appear to be missing. I've studied Mandarin, Japanese and Thai but none of them come close to your level of indecipherable.So unless you can communicate in something resembling standard English I am going to ignore your posts --I haven't got that much time to spend on translation.

_______________________________

Grateful appears to have gone to ground. The comments on this thread being too challenging to/for his cherished beliefs.

Yuyutsu,

I don’t know if you’ve been reading my comments on this thread (your comments to grateful would be pretty meaningless and clumsy if you hadn’t), but if you have, then this is a gross misrepresentation and oversimplification of what I have been saying:

<<The so-called "problem of evil" doesn't exist ... Yes, people have difficulty with pain and suffering, but that doesn't make pain evil, nor is pleasure necessarily good.>>

This does nothing to get grateful around the problem of evil; nor does it prove that the problem of evil doesn’t exist.

<<Only God is truly good [Mark 10:18] and there is no need or reason for God to conduct the world on the basis of the prejudices of humans.>>

And this simply commits the same logical fallacies, holds the same double standards, and displays the same cognitive dissonance as grateful’s comments do when he excuses his god for doing and allowing that which he would never do or allow himself.

Dear AJ Philips,

<<This does nothing to get grateful around the problem of evil;>>

I am not a Muslim and I sincerely want to learn about the Muslim view over this question - shall we allow Grateful to explain it in his/her way rather than mine?

<<nor does it prove that the problem of evil doesn’t exist>>

Obviously it was not my intention to prove anything, only to ask a question - "what makes your pleasures good and your pains evil?"

If you ask for my personal view, the artificial "problem of evil" only arises from the Abrahamic expectation for God to do the bidding of humans (who were "made in his image") and operate according to their feeble standards, likes and dislikes.

<<And this simply commits the same logical fallacies>>

That could only be a fallacy had God been doing anything, but as I mentioned already on various other threads, God does not exist hence He doesn't 'do' anything. While the naive notion of God existing and doing things is often useful, helping many people to come closer to Him, it does not represent objective reality.

<<holds the same double standards>>

I see nothing wrong about holding separate standards for men and for God.
In fact, not caring about political-correctness, I see nothing wrong even about holding separate standards for different men of different abilities.
So long as you believe (or otherwise perceive) that pain is evil, you should not inflict pain on others.

<<and displays the same cognitive dissonance>>

That's the healthiest cognitive dissonance I know. Why should we believe that our pleasures are good and our pains are evil? We have been indoctrinated like that by our genes as well as by our early education by parents who themselves were indoctrinated by their genes. Without some healthy dissonance, how will we ever escape this cult?

runner..said..<<..Isn't heaven nothing but..a larger-scale temptation and..
isn't hell nothing..but a larger-scale..place of purification?>>

its..never..going to/be that simple.

hell..is where we go..to do..those things church..and state
say we cant do..[say..]..those deadly sins..that are the deal- breaker..to giving love/grace/mercy[light]..to other..

[even those rejecting the light]
hells..or earthly..false perceptions..of what the were taught..we desired..[instead of the light/truth/love/grace mercy..etc].

<<Then shouldn't we all say..that hell is better..than heaven?!>>

yes..at the mid..levels..there isnt much difference
[where..the obvious*....sins have been left behind..yet..we..not ready..to forgive or believe...or stop doing those more 'unique'..yet kinky 'barely-sins'..like we think.[in the next life..to think..it is to do it]

<<This is in response[edited]:

1)edited..[indeed..DO NOT>>ABUSE*..ANY BODY]
not/even criminals..imf-infidels..nor/the godless..banker-canker's..or the soft-dic>>..

QUOTE..<<the sacred writings of Islam..say nothing like that.>>

SORRY>..MY BROTHER..but..MAHMOUD..[pbuh]..WAS the LAST*..messanger
BUT..that dont mean the..others teachings..are..to be forgotten.

if YOU ask me about/slaves..i reply you about slaves.

BUT..that dont ignore..OTHER forms OF servitude..
[like a debt-slave..or forced labor..by the state..[or a slave to/alcohol..or a SLAVE to sex..OR a slave..to anything..that removes..freewill.]

2)<<."If a slave marries..without the permission/.EDITED>>

MY..reply..<<OK..THERE YOU GO..
recall..grateful..SAYING..to you..you SHALL..not*say SLAVE.>>

YOU..<<NO...It does not follow that..because there were SOME..>>

see previous posts my beloved brother
there still..are MILLIONS briton alone..has tens/of THOUSANDS

YOU<<--SOME --standards on how one should treat slaves that slavery didn't exist, or that other inhuman treatments were not meted out to slaves...>>

yes then..the captain..RULED..over his ship..hard[to preserve the cargo]/../BUT today..we ARE all..under maritime law..and still DEBT slaves..and DRUGGIE serfs get punished]..only now we are many..ADDICTED thus enslaved..by govt

evil..isnt a problem..the poor have nothing
only the rich need fear evil

AJ/said<<.grateful’s comments do...excuses his god for doing and allowing..that which he would never do or allow himself.>>

yes..he is right..[its that..golden..rule
an..unsatisfied stomach..deafens the minds ear

give them what they LOVE wanting
and they get sick..of it..only then will..they YEARN..for better

but then..left them..have their fun*
let the kids sort themselves out..daddy KNOWS..
its all.going to turn out better..that way*..but first
we must learn the difference..between gods house and this dunny..
that..some materialists THINK..is hell on earth..[or rather soon will]

if we dont..get*..our chrissy present*
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15786&page=0#274098