The usual confused academic drivel surveying a terrain of thorough-going statist intervention into anything and everything and blaming “neo-liberalism” for any resulting poverty, complaining that the working class lack the fruits of development while assuming that employment is exploitative and the only thing that could bring about development - capitalism - is bad.

While I can admire Mandela for putting up with being imprisoned for 27 years for his principles, he didn't do it for "freedom" or "non-violence" as is commonly claimed. He stood for white political masters being changed to black political masters or at best, a situation in which race wouldn't matter to the composition of the class of political overlords living at the expense of their subjects and ordering them around. He still believed in the State exercising a legal monopoly of violence, and still believed that people's rights are whatever the political class says they are.

The reason he was so adored in the West and the rest of the world was because of white guilt over colonialism. It was ironical, and a bit disgusting, that at the time Idi Amin was clogging up Uganda's public water system with the dead bodies of his political opponents, and in the Central African Republic the leader was serving up his political opponents - baked!; and the situation in many other African countries was atrocious, the human rights abuses that the west and its media were obsessing about were South Africa's racially segregated football teams. This is the moral sickness of statism.

The ideal we should be aiming for is not a world in which a person of any race can rise to the position of chief parasite, but a world based on *real* freedom and non-violence, in which the function of the state is only to protect the freedom of person and property, not to be its chief violator.

I always take away a lot from Jardine's posts they cut through the crap and get to core issues

<<The reason he was so adored in the West and the rest of the world was because of white guilt over colonialism. It was ironical, and a bit disgusting, that at the time Idi Amin was clogging up Uganda's public water system with the dead bodies of his political opponents, and in the Central African Republic the leader was serving up his political opponents - baked!; and the situation in many other African countries was atrocious, the human rights abuses that the west and its media were obsessing about were South Africa's racially segregated football teams. This is the moral sickness of statism>>

Spot on! And most of the media and blogs and pollies are still suffering from that psychosis.

im..disapointed..i expected 3 pages at least..but one?

the only error..was you..like every-other
ignore the role of castro..and the peace condition..HE WANTED
demanded..to show good faith[ie the release..of nelson..BUT FOR FIDEL.castro..and his move/exit..from angolia..MANDELA would still have been..in jail
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Accord_(Angola)

While the hostilities in Angola continued, the parties met in June and August in New York and Geneva and finally all approved an outline agreement of Principles for a Peaceful Settlement in South Western Africa on 20 July[10]

During the negotiations the South Africans were asked for the release of Nelson Mandela as a sign of goodwill, which was denied.[6] Mandela remained in captivity until 2 February 1990 when the ANC African National Congress ban was lifted. A ceasefire was finally agreed upon on August 8, 1988.[11]

withdrawal was finalised in stages one month early on 25 May 1991

like so many..like HIM..GLOBALLY*
too many

[indeed SET THE PRISONERS FREE
is what mandela would say before those

who..'come to bury....entrap
[or embed]..all future mandelas'
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6132&page=0

ANYHOW..you were going..so well in summation

<<..The reality is that South Africa has witnessed the replacement of racial apartheid with what is increasingly referred to as class apartheid..>>

thats a huge point-
http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html

<<..systemic underdevelopment and segregation of the oppressed majority through structured economic, political, legal, and cultural practices">>

is SYMPTOMATIC..of whats been going on..GLOBALLY

>>..As Pretoria undertook measures*..to make big business happy,..>

DITT0..BUT..ITS BEING..done..OGLOBALY

it sort of finishes..here for..now
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6098#177707

or here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15664&page=0

who..knows..maybe here

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#176496

<<..such as cutting corporate tax rates
and restricting social spending,

SAME/same/shame*..

<<they oversaw an actual decline..in the incomes
of the average black African household.

<<Poverty intensified..as South Africa's
rich got richer..and the poor got poorer.

<<..Privatisation of services..led to rising water
and electricity prices, and increasing numbers of the nation's poorest being cut off..from these services altogether.

<<>.Millions of Africans..have been evicted/from their homes or land since 1994...Along with generally limited..lack of access to medical services,..South Africa's HIV crisis has also been..left to continue with little government intervention.

While the biggest scandal..in South Africa today is
ITS GLOBAL..and those doing..it..seem to..be coming home.,.to roost

or/see..their..future...
and..the/media..is..asleep..*
..perfect/timing..or red-flag?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6132#177812

The ANC after the SACP takeover was effectively a foreign force anyway,it's common knowledge that everything Mandela wrote was censored and edited by his White and Jewish Stalinist handlers who were guided by the Kremlin.
Mandela isn't really a darling of the Left anyway, he's regarded as a "fixer" for the colonial powers and a middle man for their aspirations in Africa. Yeah he's admired by your Blairs and Clintons and their followers but it's because he most accurately represents THEIR world view, not necessarily that of well informed South African people or the wider Western intellectual milieu.

If it wasn't for de Klerk, Mandella wouldn't have got a mention.

Mandella did nothing but that which any black politician would have done in the matter of apartheid; white governments would have put aside apartheid after a few hard-headed Boers went.

The worship of Mandella by both blacks and whites has been a massive piece of sentimental nonsense.

Black South Africans are no better off with Mandella; they are no better off now, and South Africa is a much poorer country than it was financially under white rule, after the big miners left the country.

One wrong doesn't cancel another.

While it is obviously wrong to serve your opponents baked, it is also wrong to rule by force over other people of distant lands against their will.

Similarly, while it is wrong for the state to interfere in our lives, it does not justify the greed of those who abuse their freedom to push capitalism. Nelson Mandela in his greatness, understood that it is not possible to change human nature by force, that of those two evils - socialism and capitalism, it is better to tolerate and forgive the latter because anything else would require violence.

While we should never allow government to curb capitalism by the violence of legislation, we should also expect it not to actively support and encourage it either.

Dear NeverTrustPoliticians,

While South-Africans are financially poorer following the departure of the big miners, they are now richer in spirit.

Come the inevitable global financial collapse, more South Africans will maintain their traditional rural crops while the West will be stuck in cities with diamonds they cannot eat.

Yuyutsu,

<<One wrong doesn't cancel another>>

And I don't think anyone on this thread was suggesting otherwise. The point being made was that many of our opinion leaders are narrowly one-eyed.

SPQR,
All the critical (ie objective) articles I've read over the weekend concur on one point: there's a White Western Mandela and an African Mandela, the Western Liberal version has been literally Whitewashed, clad in cloth of gold and set upon a pedestal, he bears no resemblance to the man at all. The White Mandela is really just another artifact of a White supremacist/ White Paternalist world view, the noble savage, the restive tribesman, the archetypal African proletarian protege of Liberal Jews and Whites.

listening..to alex jones
the question..front..of mind..is

is joe-biddon..going..to/the fun-er'al?
where 144.000..ascend...into..'heaven''..on..a zion-mushroom pillar/of cloud..

ascending..on..?the cloud
then..joe bidon..gets..emergency*powers..[under marshal law]
not obama..

but imagine..joe bidon..instead of obama
re what alex is saying [re obama]..here*
http://rss.infowars.com/20131208_Sun_Alex.mp3

with one stroke..all the witness against satan=dead
marshal law..and joe biddon..under war powers act/under marshal law

with nukes..plus israel/nukes
armogeddon..expect..something..so..why the secret..with japan?[plan/b?].
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/12/06/national/secrets-bill-poised-for-passage/#.UqMf0yflfzO

Dear Jay,

"Liberal Jews and Whites"

Does this exception mean that while practically all Whites are liberal, only a few Jews are; or does it mean perhaps that Jews are not white?

Another question:

Aren't liberal people those who believe in freedom? In that case, wouldn't they be in the very front of the struggle to stop apartheid?

A noble savage, or a restive tribesman sounds so much better and superior to me than a decadent/spoiled and technologically-dependent urban busy paper-shuffler.

Mandela was flawed. There is no doubt about that. Gandhi, for example, allowed his wife (Kasturba) to die of bronchial pneumonia in 1942 because his 'faith in the almighty' prevented him from allowing her to take antibiotics that would probably have saved her life. He was not so faithful a few weeks later when his own life was on the line with a malarial infection. He took quinine to save his life. So much for principles.

The Bretton Woods organizations and the institutions set up after the second European civil war (WWII), and heralding a new world order, were set up by the victors for the victors and were 'international' in name only. It is therefore unsurprising that the Structural Adjustment and GEAR programs in South Africa further impoverished and isolated the already economically disenfranchised. That is precisely what those programs were designed for, as evidenced by their total failure in other countries. In an interesting twist, the IMF and World Bank are now resisting the same austerity and capital market-driven reforms (tried and tested on several countries in the so-called Third World) on a Europe-wide scale to help Europe exit its economic and financial crises.

Flawed though he may have been, Mandela was principled, pragmatic and remarkably foresighted. He saw what was possible for his country's future but was pragmatic enough to understand that he would have to cut a deal with the devil to bring his dream to fruition. Cutting a deal with international capital (no friend of the ordinary South African) was the only way open to him to avoid bloodshed and a crisis of governance in South Africa, in the typical sort of unequal deal handed to former African colonies at 'independence'. It is the fact that he was able to combine principle and foresight, with hard-nosed pragmatism that set him apart from the likes of Gandhi and King. He did not have his head in the clouds.

"Government-imposed discrimination against black South Africans was instigated by white labor unions associated with various Marxist and communist movements. It was a pervasive system of government regulation, regimentation and control."
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/12/thomas-dilorenzo/south-african-apartheid/

Apartheid was just another form of national socialism - the opposite of free markets.

Notice how socialism always seems to be coming down on the side of monstrous, racist and anti-human regimes? Another example was Australia's White Australia Policy, driven by the unions and the Labor party.

Contrary to the socialists' opinions, the fact that socialism was behind apartheid, the White Australia Policy, Pol Pot, Mengistu, Saddam Hussein, Hilter, Stalin, Castro, Whitlam, Gillard and Rudd, is not some kind of strange coincidence.

Yuyutsu,
Correct some Jews are Liberals,so are some White people but no Jews are White, their homeland is Israel, not Europe.
The stories about the Mandela myth being created an manipulated by Jews and Whites to serve their own interests are all true, so is the assertion that the ANC after the SACP takeover was a foreign insurgent group.
A liberal is not someone who loves freedom,he's someone who believes that the purpose of government is to make everyone equal,you're thinking of Libertarians or Anarchists.Formal equality as mandated by Liberal governments comes from the use of force from the top down, such as Anti Discrimination laws. We call Liberalism "flatland" because it's a horizontal system, it seeks to bring everything to the same level (which has to be the lowest point) and incorporates diversity in a lateral fashion.
However, as you well know all attempts at formal equality are just words, things people say, like "closing the gap" and "Marriage equality", they're the product of magical thinking arising from ignorance and superstition and that's why all intelligent people are unable to take them seriously.

Dear Jay,

How confusing, because in the context of this thread, Jews were considered "white" under apartheid, or more accurately "European".
As the Jews and Afrikaaners hated each other bitterly, had the Afrikaaners even a clue that the Jews are not white, then surely they would have created a special class for them as well. But they didn't.

"the Mandela myth"

Why a myth? Do you not agree that he was a great man?

We already know that the 'Liberal' party are in fact socialists, especially their leader, but now you also say that Australia's Labor party are 'Liberals' because they try to make everyone equal?

Jews are not white, but orange,
Mandela was an NKVD officer,
Liberals oppose liberty,

Or as the song goes:

It's hot in winter and cold in summer,
a fox is stupid - a donkey wise,
a blind man looks - a deaf listens,
Milk looks black - the pallid crow sings beautiful melodies,
The rabbit is brave - frogs blow the horn,
Vegetarians eat sausage - Bolsheviks pray,
Fish sail on trees - cats lay eggs,
Elephants dance the Charleston,
Children love going to school,
This is not a song but a story,
- and the internet is ancient!

Redistribution of wealth is one of the great stumbling blocks faced by those who seek to dismantle regimes like Apartheid-era South Africa. The disempowered tend to desire what they once saw in the hands of the people who dominated them, and rightly so. From simple things like running water to more extravagant things - prestige cars, fancy appliances, wonderful foods ... and they (or at least SOME of them) did see these things in their roles as domestic servants, deliverymen, labourers, etc.

When the affluence once shared by 4 million people is distributed among 50 million, there isn't enough to go around. Unsurprisingly, white people employed by other white people cling onto their well-paid jobs, continue to send their children to good, high-fee schools and continue to live well. They can afford good healthcare, they can afford nutritious food and they can afford security for their homes. In a sense, they protect what they have. While some of the wealth may trickle down to the newly-empowered former underclass, the bulk of it stays in the same old hands. Legal barriers to the advancement of the black majority are replaced by economic barriers. While some services may end up going down the gurgler or forcing budget blowouts (e.g. having to share their healthcare facilities, or electricity, or water), others remain much the same.

With this in mind, I'm not surprised that 40% of white South Africans disagreed with the statement that the previous regime had wrongfully oppressed people of colour. Since the Rainbow Nation was born, their quality of life has decreased slightly and the quality of life of their black fellow-citizens has not improved much at all, despite the removal of the oppressive system.

About the only good thing I will say about Nelson Mandela was that he was the only black revolutionary leader who was smart enough to know that if South Africa followed every other black ruled government and chucked out the whites and Asians, the country would become a basket case.

It is funny when you realise that some people are still stupid enough to think that you can create a society with blacks and whites where everybody is equal and where there is no dividing line between black poverty and white and Asian prosperity. Sadly, the overwhelming majority of black people have very low intelligence which can easily be deduced by simply looking at how they behave.

South Africa is now one of the most dangerous places in the world for white people and the Boers are all trying to get into Australia. This should be encouraged as they are our own kith and kin and have no trouble integrating into Australian society and becoming productive members of our society. There are no South African or Rhodesian gangs running wild in our cities filling up our prisons and dole queues but plenty from other notorious ethnicities.

Let South Africa degenerate into barbarism again until some advanced society realises that it's land and resources would make a valuable addition to it's civilisation after AIDS kills off the blacks. South Africa has one of the worst proportions of AIDS infections in Africa because black South African men are just too dumb to wear condoms even though they are provided free by western do gooders.

There really are some nasty racists on this forum. I'm shocked at the number of you like Lego and Jay who seem to want to justify South African apartheid, and in Jay's case some sort of discrimination against Jews as well it would seem.

This was an article mostly about Mandela and economic governance but you guys have piled in to preach your gospels of hate.

Mandela wasn't perfect, but who is? He was, however, an inspirational leader, who demonstrated an extreme generosity of spirit. If someone else had been leading the majority party of black Africans at the time you might have seen South Africa turn into something like some of the African basket cases. As it is, it is still a major economy, unlike Zimbabwe, and is in a better position than most to develop quickly into a modern nation.

Because Mandela, fairly uniquely in my experience, was prepared to forgive, if not forget, and move on.

None of the revisionist sites that you are quoting can take that away from him.

There is no doubt that the white South African government would have fallen. The only question is how hard.

grayham/quote.."There is no doubt that the white South African government would have fallen...The only question is how hard."

good point..thing is everyone keeps missing
the DEMAND..of the sign..'of good faith'..[of releasing mandela
as a condition..of CUBA*..[backed by the might of the USSR..in cuba..leaving angolia]

IT WAS*..THE KEY 'domino''

BUT FOR FIDEL.castro..and his move/exit..from angolia..
MANDELA would still have been..in jail
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Accord_(Angola)

<<While the hostilities in Angola continued,
the parties met in June and August in New York and Geneva and finally all approved an..*outline/agreement*of Principles..for a Peaceful Settlement in South Western Africa on 20 July[10] A ceasefire was finally agreed upon on August 8, 1988.[11]

<<During the negotiations..the South Africans were asked.for the release of Nelson Mandela..as a sign of goodwill,..which was denied.>>

yeah right
look at the TIMMING*..timming=everything

<<.Mandela remained in captivity until 2 February 1990

<<when the ANC African National Congress ban was lifted.

<<withdrawal was finalised in stages one month early on 25 May 1991

where would we be..[comrade?]
mandela would..either still be in..jail
or be..what i think castro wanted..but mandela denied.

Interesting article.

The early nineties were certainly the time for neo-liberal fantasies, Fukuyama's essay, Russia was imagined as a future capitalist democracy and South Africa, without any democratic traditions whatsoever, was predicted to emerge as a functioning democracy.

Of course the apartheid regime had to be eliminated, that was a necessary condition for the emergence of democracy, but far from sufficient. There are ethnic and 'caste' tensions within the indigenous African community in South Africa and elsewhere in Africa and once the common enemy was overthrown these have emerged and there's the chilling spectre of Mugabe's Zimbabwe to contemplate. As to the Left mantra that only "White people are racists", I wouldn't fancy being a "European" farmer in a remote part of the country.

I am not "preaching a gospel of hate" at all, GrahamY. I am simply pointing out some unpleasant facts which people like yourself do not want to even think about.

Black majority rule is absolutely stupid. It presumes that that black people are as a group are just as intelligent as whites and Asians. Prior to Mandela, even tin pot African "President for Life" did the dumb thing and tossed out the Asians and whites, the very ones who were the most productive and who made these African countries economically viable.

Most of Africa is now an economic basket case, holding out the begging bowl to the rest of the world. Mandela was smart enough to figure out from every other African leader's mistake that chucking out he whites and Asians was ad dumb thing to do. I was better to squeeze them than drive them away.

But the blacks are squeezing them so hard that the Boers are getting out. From what I hear of South Africa today, it is on the way down, it is just taking longer to get there. Infrastructure, roads, railways and even sewage systems are breaking down or decaying. Crime is out of control and much of it is due to the criminal behaviour of black police. While South Africa is now the rape capitol of the world.

This author tries the old "blame the white guy" excuse for black social and economic failure. But who is he going to blame when all the whites and Asians flee overseas? I know that some blacks can be smart but collectively, their mean intelligence is far below that of whites and Asians and that is the problem. I am sick and tired of people like this author "preaching a gospel of hate" at white people and always blaming us for the dysfunctions of blacks.

lego/quote..<<..Black majority rule is absolutely stupid. It presumes that that black people are as a group are just as intelligent as whites and Asians.>>

oh..come-on..WE ALL..KNOW..the real/power
stands behind..the figurehead..tony..had expert advisers
and JUST/like every modern day leader..FOLLOWS THEIR ADVICE..implicitly.

thats how it works[except..then/of course you get..the likes/of
the thatcher/boy..gun-running to install/his figure head.

most are front guys that wised up
like mandela..[de clerk said no way..when..castro..
DEMANDED..his release as..a condition..to withdraw..from..angolia.

life is a stage..those in/the media..are only the actors

ENOUGH/allready

let/there be justice..for all
[L]-audible mandela[?]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mnHvgujwks8
FLASHBACK - Mandela slams Israel's Netanyahu at NAM summit

South African President Nelson Mandela on Wednesday condemned as ``narrow and chauvinistic'' the administration of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
http://southmovement.alphalink.com.au/southnews/NAM-re2-mandela.htm

Which may explain why so many media outlets
are trying to denigrate Mandela in the aftermath of his death.

Nelson Mandela Was On The U.S. Terrorist Watch List Until 2008
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/05/nelson-mandela-terrorist_n_4394392.html

Former South African President Nelson Mandela passed away Thursday evening at the age of 95. While he was revered by politicians today as a human rights icon, Mandela remained on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008, when then-President George W. Bush signed a bill removing Mandela from it.

Israeli forces attack protests
commemorating Mandela across West Bank

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=654814

Dozens of Palestinians were injured and one detained as Israeli forces opened fire to disperse protests against the Israeli occupation and commemorating Nelson Mandela's death across the West Bank on Friday afternoon.

Palestinians to Mandela:
Our Freedom Seems Possible Because You Reached Yours
http://www.commondreams.org/further/2013/12/06-0?

A moving open letter from Marwan Barghouthi, beloved Palestinian political prisoner, unifier and leader of the first and second Intifadas, now serving five life sentences in an Israeli prison, in honor of Nelson Mandela and his "capacity to defy oppression and apartheid, (and) choose justice over vengeance...(who) was "not only writing history, but contributing to the triumph of light over darkness." This, in contrast to a hypocritical U.S. complicit in support of today's apartheid over 20 disheartening years of keeping Palestinians occupied.

myth making?
http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/obama-falsely-asserts-he-is-mandela-follower/

soft press
http://bit.ly/19ppNnp
http://www.globalresearch.ca/fbi-investigated-anti-defamation-league-adl-for-espionage/5360458

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/extractive-world-order-plundering-planet-earth-seizing-resources-and-erasing-cultures/

At the expense of the majority of the world’s population and the natural environment, the Imperialist class has been operating almost universally at home and abroad—and in many instances; inciting regional conflicts on the basis of subsurface sectarian divides.

Conflicts to which there are no other reasons for involvement than the need to assert the influence necessary in order to maintain the steady conduit of material and economic inputs required to continually grow the empire.

As domestic resources dry up, more and more will the Imperialist class employ tactics meant to destabilize other areas rich in resources or in geo-political significance because in doing they open them up to neo-liberal forms of shock exploitation and extortion.

Humanitarian aid and the US government’s professed aim to uphold human rights standards around the world falls flat in the face in the examination of their tools for manipulation: modern warfare, genocide, economic sanctions, aid blockades, structural adjustment programs, privatization, the support of military dictatorships, indefinite detention, torture, right-wing coup d’états, paramilitaries, death squads and alliances with rogue apartheid nations and groups.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/making-a-killing-with-cancer-a-124-6-billion-dollar-industry/

Also in their toolkit is an agricultural and economic policy designed to transfer the majority of the world’s most fertile land and food resources into their fold—a connection not commonly viewed as resource extraction but functions in the same capacity.
http://www.hangthebankers.com/confirmed-obama-administration-lied-about-syria-to-try-start-ww3/

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/the-phony-pullout-from-afghanistan/

http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Pentagon%E2%80%99s_Map_of_Afghanistan%3A_An_Eldorado_of_Mineral_Wealth_and_Natural_Resources/31029/0/38/38/Y/M.html

http://investmentwatchblog.com/obama-implements-martial-law-before-collapse/

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/extractive-world-order-plundering-planet-earth-seizing-resources-and-erasing-cultures/

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=mandela+family+charade
brain dead since june
http://guardianlv.com/2013/12/nelson-mandela-family-finally-gives-up-charade-and-admits-mandela-dead/

, his family refused to turn off the life support machines hooked up to his body. Thus, the family could keep him artificially “alive.” Their motive? To settle a huge lawsuit against Mandela’s estate.

It was revealed that Mandela’s family was suing him for control of his estate and since it is impossible to sue a dead person, it seems Mandela had to be kept “alive” with machines until a resolution could be found for the lawsuit.

Thus far, there is no word on whether that lawsuit had been settled, but there are already many speculations in the press that this announcement today will begin the battles over the Mandela estate afresh.