Suseonline "Rape and murder are against the law, where abortion is not.
So that analogy does not compute."

Actually, in NSW it's still technically illegal.
It's just that the law isn't enforced.

So why are rape and murder illegal?
Based on your nobody's-business-but-mine ethnical model, there shouldn't be *any* laws.

Rape and murder are illegal because the *community* (i.e. people as a group, not as individuals) want them to be.

"a fetus IS a part of the woman's body because it is attached by the umbilical cord"

It is inside her body.
It is not "part" of it, or her immune system wouldn't try to kill it.
It's "attachment" is temporary.

Conjoined twins are "attached" but often have their own internal organs and may be separated.
They are not "one" body simply because they're "attached".

"and cannot exist alone before 20 weeks gestation."

But it *will* exist alone.
Unlike her arms, legs, brain, lungs or any other "part of her body".

But isn't it was just a "clump of cells" until it's *born*, when it magically becomes a "person" that shouldn't be "murdered"?
So is it a "person" with "human rights" at 20 weeks now?

All sorts of parasites cannot live alone, and depend on your body for nourishment.
That doesn't make them "part of your body" just because they rely on it to survive.

"Obviously the Doctor does have a say about the woman's pregnancy"

But he can't "have a say" about her termination?
He *must* under this new law, if not providing the service himself, refer the woman to a doctor who will.

This is the new law we're discussing.
Where is the medical professional's "choice"?

"You all need to get over the fact that you can't force a woman to carry on with a pregnancy she doesn't want"

And you need to get over the fact that you are living in a "community/society", not a sole individual in some imaginary amoral anarcho-liberatarian void.

Shockadelic <"And you need to get over the fact that you are living in a "community/society", not a sole individual in some imaginary amoral anarcho-liberatarian void."

Oh dear me, you are certainly working yourself into a lather now.
I am certainly not a 'sole individual' though am I Shockadelic?

The majority of our society feel the same as I do on choice for women, otherwise wouldn't our Government and law officials be legally ruling abortion out altogether?

I am not an advocate for abortion at all, as I find the idea awful, personally.
However, I would never presume to decide that choice for another woman.

I wonder how, exactly, you would advocate physically stopping women from having abortions anyway?

Suseonline "The majority of our society feel the same as I do on choice for women"

Do they? That depends on the particular question you ask.
In some cases (rape, dangerous conditions) maybe.
But anytime-for-any-or-no-reason? I doubt it.

"otherwise wouldn't our Government and law officials be legally ruling abortion out altogether?"

Since when does the government do what the majority want? Ha!

They already have outlawed it in most places. Or made it supposedly difficult.
But as I said, the laws are not *enforced*.

"I am not an advocate for abortion at all"

Oh please. You never shut up about it.

"I wonder how, exactly, you would advocate physically stopping women from having abortions anyway?"

I wonder how you would stop people raping or murdering?
Obviously legal prohibition doesn't work, or our prisons would be empty.

You can't *stop* people breaking the law.
You can only punish those who do.

Dear Suse,

<<The majority of our society feel the same as I do on choice for women>>

So your position here is very precarious:

Today you happen to be lucky because the majority is on your side, so you and your friends have the freedom to abort your/their baby. Tomorrow the majority may not be on your side, so what then? will you or your friends be forced to carry the baby in your/their body for the whole term and go unwilling through the pains of birth just because society says so, oh dear!

It is time you understand that no society or majority should have power over your body and your life.

However, that requires on your side that you accept just the same that society/majority should also have no power over OTHER people's life, that just as nobody should be allowed to interfere with your choice to abort, nobody should be allowed to interfere with other people's choices, including with their conscientious and religious convictions.

Abortion is now, and always will be, freely available in Australia, so you guys need to come to terms with that fact.

Why not put all your considerable zeal into advocating for more contraception methods that will be easily and freely available so women ( and their men) wouldn't have to make such an awful choice?

It is easy for you guys to damn all women who do choose to consider abortion because you can be certain that will never have to be a choice you have to make about your bodies....
Maybe if we make male masturbation a criminal offence, given that it is a terrible waste of live sperm?

Dear Suse,

<<Abortion is now, and always will be, freely available in Australia, so you guys need to come to terms with that fact.>>

So the sun shall never set on the British Empire.

Oh by-the-way, Suse, did you know that my window is broken?
I was playing ball indoors when over-enthusiastically I hit the glass with a baseball bat. Yes of course, it's the fifth time it happened - so would you kindly send me a cheque or your bank details or your address where I can, as always, send you the repair bill?

<<Maybe if we make male masturbation a criminal offence, given that it is a terrible waste of live sperm?>>

Most men would indeed appreciate a cure, but criminalisation wouldn't work because males will continue to masturbate in jail. Castration is much more effective, or what about adding caustic soda to our water supplies? or just starve and work them hard - Nazi research demonstrated that sperm production was reduced in concentration camps, in some cases even eliminated altogether.

<<It is easy for you guys to damn all women who do choose to consider abortion>>

Yes, damning others is easy, but why should I want to do it?
99% of Australians murder on a regular basis, some even daily, although most of those prefer to do it indirectly by hiring a butcher as their hit-man.
If I wish to damn someone, should I not damn them first?

So although that's easy, I don't damn you or anyone for murdering animals, babies or sperm - kill as much as you please because what you do with your body is none of my business (besides, I understand that you only do it because yourself is a victim, still weak under the influence of your genes who push you to do it).

I only condemn those who try to enforce their will on others by the violence of legislation.