AJ Philips "giving them control over their own reproductive organs"

Abortion laws are giving them control over another body altogether.
An embryo/foetus isn't *her* organs.

If they were genuinely taking "control" they would take every precaution to avoid being pregnant.
There is only one way to get pregnant, and a million ways not to.

"But the potential results of withholding information on how an abortion can be accessed certainly can be [an illness]."

How is information being withheld?

Why go to Joe Blow M.D. when there's an abortion clinic in the Yellow Pages (see Pregnancy Termination Services)?

<<Nose jobs? Sex change? Skin lightening? Fetish amputation?>>

"There is no time limit on any of these, so they're irrelevant to my argument."

Oh, but what if the amputee fetishist is *suicidal*?
Surely a doctor's "duty of care" means he couldn't turn away the sick freak.

"How are you gauging necessity?"

Whether the person is "physically ill" and needs "medical treatment", that's how.
That's what doctors are supposed to figure out.
Either a physical surgery *needs* to be done, or it doesn't.

Your own movement uses the term "choice".
That implies something that's not *necessary*.

Suseonline "It should only be their business if they are the father."

Well Joe Blow M.D. isn't the father either.
Why should it be his business?

And I suppose members of the community should only be concerned about rape if someone they know is raped, or only concerned about theft if their own property is stolen.

What kind of society do you want?
One where people are only concerned about harm to themselves/relatives, but indifferent to harm to strangers?

Girl next door was robbed, raped and murdered?
Yes officer, I saw and heard the whole thing, but it's "not my business", I'm not her father!

Don't be ridiculous Shockadelic, you are getting a bit hysterical there.

Rape and murder are against the law, where abortion is not.
So that analogy does not compute.

Whatever you think, a fetus IS a part of the woman's body because it is attached by the umbilical cord, and cannot exist alone before 20 weeks gestation.
Obviously the Doctor does have a say about the woman's pregnancy, but I thought that was a given?

You all need to get over the fact that you can't force a woman to carry on with a pregnancy she doesn't want, no matter how much you may hate not having that control...

@Yuyustu. Animals kill and eat each other. Saprophitic plants devour their hosts, humans aren't supposed to act that way. What your thinking does is release us to forget our duties towards the animals.

@Suseonline, you need to get over the fact that humans grow inside women's bodies. A real woman would advance the idea that society simply has to face this simple fact. Look what we're made to revolve around today. I mean really think what you're told to put at the centre of your life.

I'm completely incredulous that you would side with whoever is telling you that fact your own flesh and blood isn't as important as .... I dunno labouring in some crummy cubicle for some amoral transnational and bigger flat screen Tv? well what? what is worth taking your daughter's life?

Has everyone gone completely mad?

Can you forgive those who say you simply have to turn off your TV? or whatever has turned into a feticidal maniac? Of all the wondeful, goodly things you could be putting intellect in service to - you've chosen the plutocracy? You put your faith in them?

Has everyone gone completely mad?

We're human for goodness' sake. 2013 years after His birth there is still no other way to retain it.

Dear Suse,

I fail to understand your reluctance against professional honesty: What could possibly be wrong with a tradesperson advertising clearly and honestly "I provide service A but I don't provide service B"?

I am not suggesting anything about who should provide this service or another - that should be up to each individual professional to choose and their reason(s) are no business of mine or anyone but themselves. All I say is that I wish all professionals to be honest and upfront about what they do and what they don't.

You don't even have to be a doctor in order to assist others with issues other than physical disorders, but in traditional settings it was common to expect this of doctors. You are not even required to believe in gods in order to provide spiritual assistance, but common sense tells that those doctors who believe are more likely to be motivated and attempt to provide spiritual help to their patients while those who do not, are more likely to concentrate their efforts on the physical body. So why not provide a small sign on the door to prevent the confusion?

Dear Martin,

<<Animals kill and eat each other. Saprophitic plants devour their hosts, humans aren't supposed to act that way.>>

True - yet they do.

And go unpunished by the law.

<<What your thinking does is release us to forget our duties towards the animals.>>

Care to explain how?

Personally, I don't believe that you have a duty towards animals as such or towards humans for that matter: what you have is a moral duty to God and for your own spiritual welfare, to abstain from murder.

Yuyitsu, if someone needs to have their 'spirit' seen to, they should go and see a priest , minister, rabbi or whoever.

Doctors deal with the physical and mental problems that humans face, and thus do not need to disclose whether they believe in gods or not.
It shouldn't make any difference, and is no one else's business what they believe,

Martin, so because I believe women should have a choice about abortion I am not a 'real' woman? How quaint.

Maybe because you are willing to consider forcing women to go through with pregnancies they don't want means you aren't a real man?

Dear Suse,

In many traditional societies, a doctor is considered a holistic one-stop establishment for a rounded treatment of most problems - physical, mental, emotional and spiritual (still, a doctor usually wouldn't fix your car or pay off your mortgage). Few doctors still provide spiritual support even today and have patients that come for that. Other patients who no longer expect a doctor to provide spiritual help, still expect them to at least take into consideration the adverse spiritual side-effects of their treatments.

On the other hand, the Australian government now wants doctors to also provide certain social services as a social-worker would.

So we identify at least three different services, along with a variety of professionals who are able and willing to provide different subsets of these services:

You could have a doctor that treats only the physical body and ignores the spiritual and social side-effects; You could have a priest that treats only the spirit and ignores the physical and social side-effects; You could have a social-worker that treats only social conditions; You could have a Rabbi that also helps with social situations; You could have a doctor who also provides social services; You could have a doctor who also provides spiritual services; and you may be able to find a person who is able and willing to do all three.

You may have a car-mechanic who only does mechanical work; a car-electrician who only does electrical work; or a person who does both.

You may have a masseuse who provides only remedial-massage services; a prostitute who provides only sexual services; or a person who does both.

So all I say is, tick the boxes and let it be known to the public which services you provide and which you don't - no combination is right or wrong, so just be honest about it.

Naturally, you don't need to disclose what you believe in (though you could if you want) - only what services you provide.