Dear George,

Original sin, the fall, Satan's revolt against God and substitutionary atonement are ideas that entered Christianity from non-Jewish sources. In the Jewish interpretation the guilt of Adam and Eve died with them. It was not transmitted further. The serpent was a tempter sent by God but had nothing to do with Satan. Religions change. Old ideas are abandoned, and new ones adopted. In Catholicism encyclicals state new doctrines. In Judaism change comes through consensus. There is a current discussion among rabbinical authorities on whether mistreated animals can be considered kosher. The people's sins in early Judaism could be put upon a scapegoat, but that idea was abandoned. A person is now considered responsible for his or her own sins. Sins against God can be forgiven by penitence, prayer and charity. Sins against one's fellow creatures can be forgiven by trying to compensate for it and then asking the person wronged for forgiveness. If that doesn't work it is then up to God to decide. The fall is a Platonic idea coming from the degeneration of the ideal forms and entered Christianity through the Neoplatonic philosophers. The conflict between good and evil as separate independent forces comes from Zoroastrianism.

Judaism maintains that within each person is a yetzer hara, a spirit of Evil, and a yetzer hatov, a spirit of Good. Either may dominate at different times, but good and evil come from within not from without. There is no devil or external evil spirit.

There is a tendency to see other religions in terms of the one you are most familiar with. I think Stark has done that.

so much..of what david observed..in the last post is as i believe
but lets egsamim..<<..the guilt of Adam and Eve died with them.>>

the..church i think..holds eve..guilty...of some sort of sin
but this too..is easy refuted..recall..the serphant did ask..*eve..DID GOD FORBID..and that is key

eves reply..SHOULD have read
no..my..husband/brother/father..etc[ie ADAM..did]
cause i was but a rib..at the time..GOD FORBID ADAM*

further..under the mosaic laws..
a father..can forgive HIS daughters..foolishness
a husband..can forgive his wifes..foolishness

ditto..
a brother..forgive a sister..their foolishness

and adam was all of them*
thus eve is forgiven..[forgivable]]..by many ways
thus no origonal..*sin

david is correct..<<It was not transmitted further.>>

The serpent..*had nothing to do with Satan

further..god made adam..of clay..[think goyam]
angels are made of fire/flame

further..[re the ichin/..feminine aspect]
god sought an equal..thus made herself the goyam[adam]

but he wanted what the beasts have
ie a..MATE*..sogod in her wisdom..gave him..his sister

thinkof adam=Xy
eve =XX..

if you double up..on the god gene[X]
you soon see why..*god ditched the y..and gave eve the GIFT..of co-creation*

jesus cant die..*FOR our sin
cause god sees not the sin..

[he knows the sin..was never really real]

in time we all..growup..
not needing any..scapegoat..to blame
or beg others..to save them..from what?

we are eternal..spirits..
[life/living energy accumulators..if you will

[now recall..the LAW..of energy consevation..
*energy cant be created..NOR destroyed*

you got it..[E}
more of the same..will be a given..

david again..<<..Sins against one's fellow creatures..can be forgiven by trying to compensate for it..>>..

please read chapter 22
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf
Chapter XXI In the Third Division. A Library in Hell ................................................................... 132
Chapter XXII A “Hospital” in Hell ................................................................................................ 134

Dear david f,

Of course, there are ideas that entered Christianity from other than Jewish sources (especially when it comes to systematized theologies). Thanks for reminding me of that. I really did not know that the idea of Satan as the fallen angel, did not come from Judaism.

Rereading the part from Stark that I pasted here, I think the mistake - of seeking Satan as the opposite of God even in Christianity (I know of Zoroastrianism even less than what I know about Judaism where it differs from Christianity) - was mine, rather than his. Nevertheless, elsewhere he claims "Satan is a fallen angel who rules Hell and tempts people to sin" as part of Judaism. Thanks to you I found "In Judaism "satan" is not a sentient being but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara – that exists in every person and tempts us to do wrong." (http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/jewishbeliefsatan.htm), which is more or less what you wrote.

Galileo (or was it Bacon) spoke of two books “written by God”, that of Scripture and that of Nature. Regretfully - I mean for me - only one of them is “written in the language of mathematics”, as put so aptly by Galileo.

.

Dear David, George and One Under God,

.

It is not surprising that the duality observed in nature has become engraved in our human sub-conscious and we have projected it into our concept of the so-called supernatural.

Even Newton attests to its existence in his third law of motion: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The very need of a “supernatural” seemingly corresponds to the necessity to create a counterpart to fulfil the role of complement or opponent to our “natural” environment.

.

Dear George,

There are differences between eastern and western Christianity regarding evil. Orthodox Christianity, less dualistic than Catholicism or Protestantism, accepts the existence of a devil but also sees evil as internal. Solzhenitsyn, an Orthodox Christian, expressed this idea in “The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956”

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

The above is not too different from the yetzer hara and the yetzer hatov. Solzhenitsyn was rejecting Marxism which saw the class struggle as an expression of the opposition of the good proletariat against the evil capitalist.

The idea of original sin, redemption and Eden occur in the Marxist historical narrative. Marx had Jewish ancestry but was a Christian by education and outlook even though he later rejected religion. Capitalism was the original sin which took humanity from the Edenic bliss of primitive communism to the period of the class struggle. Mankind would be redeemed through the advent of advanced communism and the millennial fantasy of the classless society.

Joachim of Fiore, a Calabrian abbot, proposed a three stage period of history, the Edenic period of the father, the period of struggle of the son and the millennial period of the Holy Ghost. Hegel was influenced by Joachim, and Marx, as a left Hegelian, gave the ideas his own twist. The right Hegelians became German nationalists, some of whom later became Nazis. The phrase, the Third Reich, that of Hitler, was coined in 1923, by an early Nazi anticipating a Nazi takeover. Both Nazism and Marxism had millennial aspects.

The Joachite three stage theory of history is a common European theme. Kaiser and tsar both are forms of Caesar. Imperial Germany and tsarist Russia saw themselves as the Third Rome.

Dear Banjo,

Duality is not observed in nature. Human perceptions give nature a duality.

Banjo<<..The very need..of a “supernatural”..seemingly corresponds to the necessity..to create a counterpart..to fulfill the role of complement or opponent..to our “natural” environment..>>..

i would suggest..that super/nature..is only..by our naming..for that unseen[that material sensory..without obvious visual/physical causation]

lest we forget..in the beginning..god created..the heavens
[the now unseen]..and the..earth....that when god sayeth..LET THERE BE LIGHT..that the light*..only reveals that..*able to be seen/heard/felt/imagined..

*but that not falsifiable..
[the great unseen.].got labeled super/..naturally

and thus davids..<<..Duality is not observed in nature.>>

plus that..<<..Human perceptions give nature a duality.>>..yet again..hit right to the mark

look at the beast..
it wants to play..so it plays
it feels hungry..thus looks for food

it dosnt plan..for murder
though its primitive lust thoughts
yet attract the beastly spirit..so loving its life force..shed blood

i wont get into the why of it
but anyhow..the officer covered that

thankfully..i can disagree..<<.,."satan".is not a sentient being>>

quite correct off course
yet we see him clearly..reflected..by those claiming to serve him[his own]..just as much as the christ..can be seen as he walks with his own[not anactualbeing[as such]..but a fixated faith,,makes it appear so[if only to them]

recall..nuthin will be hid*den..*
[i think..*hid was a god at some stage]

satan..thus is slightly more than..<<..a metaphor for the evil inclination>>..

but only by fine defintion

yet again correct..<<..the yetzer hara..that exists in every person and tempts us to do wrong.">>..plus..the good angel

ie our higher/lesser natures
is vital..[the beasts..dont got two..!
like we..the caretakers of the least[beast],have]

made in his image..
we thus learn more..of the ONLY one's duality..called IAM
except the collective..we*..are his opposite/opposing
___
ME
---
_*__
WE
--

=i am is being
with..[in]..us..[all]