Oh dear, Stalin? Pol Pot? Sorry Jonathon, it is Ben Gurion and Begin who belong with those criminals, not the BDS movement to stop them.

Perhaps you haven't heard but there are many excellent actual Israeli jews writing about the illegal forced ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and many of us in the world are quite capable of reading them without the hasbara brigade using propaganda on us.

Thank you for clarifying, Arjay,

<<Yuyutsu,Who are the elites? They are the people that President Dwight Eisenhower warned us about in 1961.He referred to them as the Military Industrial Complex.>>

I'm relieved to find that none of my family or friends in Israel work in the military industrial complex, hence they aren't "elites". Some Australians that I know, however, do work in the military industries, building weapons to defend Australia, so I suppose I better be careful and keep distance!

I did however once known someone, a poor and simple man, who was a carpenter in the Israeli military industries (and it was after 1961) - does this mean that he was a member of the elite?
(fortunately I don't recall ever being bitten by him, or I could be infected too...)

<<It was never just the Jews or the Germans but always the elites who preach Zionism or Nazism.>>

Well some of my friends tend to be Zionists in their views, however they don't preach it, so I suppose you are correct!

<<I prefer Banking Military Industrial Complex since this system of allowing private banks to create money from nothing and loan it back to us and our Govts as debt,makes us the hard workers their absolute slaves.They are the elites by virtue of theft from us.Our own Govts are complicit via taxation to pay for this unnecessary debt.>>

I take your point, but our own government is paying for so many unnecessary things that this is a drop in the ocean.

Thanks heaven I no longer have any bankers in my family, but should any of my friends find a job as a teller, I would immediately recognize them as a dangerous "elite".

One final question: is chocolate-making part of the Banking-Military-Industrial-Complex?

Arjay:

“Zionism like Nazism is an elitist view of the world”

Zionism is not “an elitist view of the world”. It’s a nationalist movement for settling Jews in Israel. In contrast, Nazism considers the Aryan race as superior to all others, so it is indeed an elitist view.

Marilyn:

Regarding your “ethnic cleansing” argument: Please look at the number of Arab citizens in Israel today, compared with 1948. Does this look like ethnic cleansing to you? This huge growth in the number of Israeli Arabs must mean the Israelis are hopeless at Ethnic Cleansing.

You might find a much better example for ethnic cleansing if you look at the Jewish population in Arab countries from 1948 to today, where numbers dropped by a factor of 100

Stan1:

“…[the BDS] is a powerful response to the apartheid, ethnic cleansing and brutality of Israel in their country and in the Occupied Palestinian Territories…”

Apartheid? Please do give us some examples, I think you might be confused about what ‘Apartheid’ actually means. Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews, unlike the South African blacks who had their rights severely curtailed.

Ethnic cleansing? The growth in the Arab Israeli population goes against this argument, I’m afraid. See my response to Marilyn above.

“Israel with the 4th largest defense force in the world…”

4th largest? With a total population (including Arabs) of less than 8 million? A quick search revealed this data: http://www.globalfirepower.com/

Yuyutsu:

“Left is the West Bank and it is a shameful and sad affair that later Israeli governments reneged on their promise to return it for peace”

I don’t know why you say this. The West Bank was occupied by Jordan prior to 1967. The Jordanians did not want it back following the peace accord with Israel. The West Bank and Gaza Strip were offered to the Palestinians by Israel in the Camp David accords in exchange for peace, but the Palestinians rejected the offer, just as they rejected so many offers throughout the 20th century. Both sides of Israeli politics still support the 2-state solution today.

An interesting article (opinion piece) from Haaretz newspaper regarding Netanyau and Obama and the implications of Obama’s second term for Israel:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/obama-ii-and-israel-the-faultlines-are-starting-to-show-1.477638

It pretty much outlines what many believe and have been saying, here and elsewhere.

Scribbler,

Thanks for the feedback. I now have a better understanding of your view, notwithstanding my disagreement with it.

You mention those who "advocate that Israel maintain control of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (by any means, it seems to me)..."

May I ask, are the Jews the only people who are not allowed to win a war including the spoils of war (i.e. territory). If Israel is not to be singled out amongst the nations, please advise where are the demonstrations condemning the Communists who to this day occupy South Vietnam? And where are the protests demanding the United States return lands west of the Mississippi seized from their southern neigbour?

You make reference to the guilt Israel should exhibit over its"annexation of land following the Six Day War and subsequent settlement of that land". Why did nobody ask the Soviet Union to unfurl its guilt over enslaving the Baltic states and Eastern Europe? I don't recall ANYONE asking Al-Assad Sr. about the guilt he 'had' over gassing his own countrymen. And has anyone pointed out to the mullahs in Iran and the rump of the Ba'athist party in Iraq the guilt they should display for the over 1,000,000 slaughtered in the Iran-Iraq War?

Hmmm?

Seems like some but not all nations are inoculated against ever been asked about guilt.

To split hairs, I do agree with your point that there were sources citing Israel as the aggressor in 1967. i just don't hold those sources as creditable.

Dear Avw,

The West Bank was in Arab hands before 1967 and should return to Arab hands (or at least be out of Israeli hands) as soon as reasonable security considerations (and only those!) allow it. At the time there was no Palestinian-national movement, hence no Arab considered themselves "Palestinian", now they do, but it shouldn't be Israel's problem - let the Arabs sort their internal divisions among themselves.

Offers were indeed made by two Israeli PMs, but firstly they were not complete and would keep some areas in Israeli hands, especially in Jerusalem, which is the main sting. Secondly, suppose the offers were accepted, could they actually be followed? Given the Jewish settlements in the West Bank, that would have taken Israel into a civil war, causing every Israeli PM to quickly turn back.

Israeli governments, especially since the 1992 "hoops" policy, have deliberately encouraged the settlements for the purpose of never being able to return that land, even if the PM (Yitzhak Shamir at that time) wanted to return them in a peace deal (as the 3 designers of the "hoops" policy believed).

<<Both sides of Israeli politics still support the 2-state solution today.>>

For Netanyahu that is an obvious lip-service, which he never truly meant. Even Labor's new leader, Shelley Yehimovitz, believes that East Jerusalem and the major settlement blocks must remain in Israeli hands. In any case, they have tied themselves up in such a way that even if they wanted - they couldn't!

Yes, they would agree to a tiny and highly fractured Palestinian state, big deal which would not have solved any problem, neither Palestinian nor Israeli.

As Israel is unable to rid itself of the West Bank, I pray that the rest of the world will help her, forcibly as needed, to relieve itself from that curse.