A far better article than the teacher-bashing rubbish that Jonathan Ariel has previously written (http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5745, http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5669). It just goes to show that there is hope for us all.

I had never heard of the Max Brenner chocolate shops until the BDS mob came along, so I emailed a friend and we both went and had a coffee at one. The best thing people can do in response to the BDSers is to find their local Max Brenner store and patronise it.

What a bunch of nut jobs.

In what world do they think, even if their motivations for the protest were coherent, and whether one agrees with them or not, that boycotting a cafe in Parramatta somehow helps Palestinians in Gaza.

Looooony tunes.

Having said that I think it's not really about race as the author concedes they are a bunch of incoherent anti capitalists and only a small minority of Muslims and the odd skin head, so put your Jew sympathy card back in your pocket. Jeez I wish there was an expiry date on those cards.

http://www.studentsforpalestine.org/?p=320

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=199315

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2847334.html

There are some good articles on the Max Brenner protests and the groups involved. This isn’t one of them.

The problem Israel faces is that it has, for decades, enjoyed the luxury of western support, and has abused this by operating covertly, by engaging in war and annexing territories, by building and resettling same territories, by having access to nuclear weapons yet refusing to sign the NPT, by denying many of its Arab/Palestinian citizens equal rights and by interfering repeatedly in international political spheres (eg, US election).

Sadly, this support - by people who are, quite frankly, fed up with their own country’s ongoing interference, increasing red tape and over-abused political correctness - is waning. Most notably, despite Bibi’s attempts, the US is entering another 4-year term under Obama, who is no friend of Netanyahu.

People are sick of hearing Israel cry foul while it repeatedly refuses to take responsibility for its actions, its Zionism and its reported oppression of Palestinians. People are sick of Israel and its people demanding apologies for what they continually cite as anti-Semitic movements, while they themselves make no such apologies for their actions. They are sick of Israel thumbing its nose at the UN when it suits them, yet using the UN for its own political gambits (Netanyahu’s exploding bomb). Frankly, they are just fed up with having to kowtow to every demand by Zionists without receiving any concession in return.

If Israel wants (nay, demands) the respect of the world, then it needs to operate as part of that world, not as a separate and self-perceived superior entity. Then, and only then, will everyone (including any protesters) be suitably content that Israel is indeed working for peace and for a solution to its own-made crisis in the ME.

Israel can no longer obfuscate its own record of human rights abuse by pointing the finger at surrounding Arab nations and their various conflicts and saying, “But look what they do to each other!” That argument will no longer wash and any protest (no matter how ill-conceived) by legitimate groups is lawful.

Hey, I thought 'The Singer' was the main source of deceptive Israeli propaganda on OLO!

I don't know that I can handle two sources. I mean, I'm only human after all.

Besides, I thought I lived in Australia, well, at least the American version of it!

Congratulations Jonathan on your bold and incisive article that finally gets to the heart of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It is so easy to blame the other side when your team loses the plot and your game suffers. And onlookers are quick to join in the blame game without understanding what is really happening.

In many ways the Arab nations are their own worst enemy and their leaders have done little to improve the lot of their people, being more focused on attacking the tiny independent State of Israel.

This latest Sydney protest against Max Brenner is just one more example of the negative power of groupthink. It is said, 'There is nothing new under the sun', and whenever crowds with nothing better to do meet in protest, they rarely understand what they are really protesting against. Go back to the 1930s and examine the groupthink of Hitler's followers. Or go back even further and hear the crowds who shouted 'Crucify Him' without understanding what they were really doing... Truly little has changed.

>>The problem Israel faces is that it has, for decades, enjoyed the luxury of western support, and has abused this by operating covertly, by engaging in war and annexing territories, by building and resettling same territories, by having access to nuclear weapons yet refusing to sign the NPT, by denying many of its Arab/Palestinian citizens equal rights and by interfering repeatedly in international political spheres (eg, US election).<<

But all will be well if you go and stand outside some cafe with a bunch of hippies and wave a placard. That will definitely help solve the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

Cheers,

Tony

This is just a diatribe, full of utterly hysterical abuse. In fact it is so bad that it was impossible to get to the end of the article. But, for the writer's future reference, “Australian Workers Union boss Paul Howes said he found their behaviour "mimicked those of Nazi thugs". When it comes to thuggish behaviour I don't think I would be quoting Paul Howes! The issues here are no doubt complicated but it helps no one when every criticism of Israel is immediately met with this sort of nonsense. The On-line Opinion is really going down hill.

Here we go again, the usual sophistry that equates criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. If those admittedly dopey protesters can't distinguish the nation state of israel from the Jewish community neither can the author, apparently. It's an old propaganda ploy to accuse critics of Israel of anti-Semitism.

"And just as they did in September, these protesters will repackage their anti-Semitism as the allegedly less pungent fume of "anti-Zionism". But just who are they kidding?"

Zionism is a colonialist ideology and as any other ideology it's fair game .

David G

Where is all the "balancing" pro-Palestinian propaganda?

Dear Scribbler,

A good and measured reply, made more so by the fact you refrained from falling into the language that so permeates the author's piece.

Those against the BDS actions are so intent on peppering their responses with 'Jews', 'Jewish businesses', 'Jew-hatred', 'hate', 'anti-Semitism', and 'Jew-baiting'.

I hate what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinian people. They stand condemned by most of the world and by International law including the Geneva convention. They are more than deserving of sanction and if it were virtually any other country instead of Israel there would be universal support. I do not hate Jewish people.

What Mister Ariel is doing is despicably libelling my fellow Australians, who being aware of the plight of the Palestinian people are prepared to act to sanction an Israeli owned business operating in our country, as Jew haters.

That libel needs to be confronted whenever it is deployed. For me personally the fact that the Strauss Group is Israeli might not have precluded me from having a coffee in one of their shops, but the hate filled slander from the likes of Mr Ariel directed at those who are on the whole concerned and caring Australians now ensures my patronage will be withheld.

That this action will ensure I am now labelled as an anti-Semitic by those who inhabit his world should inform most reasonable people just how pernicious, dangerous, and fraught his message is.

But I further condemn Mr Ariel for his casual deployment of terms such as 'Jew-hatred', 'anti-Semitism', and 'Jew-baiting'. These phrases rightly have great power to evoke emotional responses yet his disrespectful use only serves to devalue the power that an unfortunate and horrendous history has served to bestow upon them.

For this act alone he should be ashamed.

"Balancing" pro-Palestinian propaganda?"

I did read something along those lines five or six years ago but nothing since, Mac!

We live in a pro-Israeli world as far as propaganda goes. I try to balance things up a bit on my blog but it's only a drop in a very large, very polluted ocean and truth seems to be whatever the MSM and America says it is!

Just checked and verified that the Strauss group operates all from within Israel-proper, NOT from the occupied territories.

Enjoy your ice-cream!

Yuyutsu, you use the term 'Israel-proper'.

'Israel proper' includes parts of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, etc, plus all of what used to be the Palestinian Territories.

It's just that Israel hasn't got around to taking these other parts yet but, after it gets rid of the Palestinians, it will!

Poor bastards, the Palestinians.

It would appear from this hysterical outpouring of hasbara that the BDS movement is having some success! This type of peaceful protest (Boycott Divestments Sanctions) contributed to the end of apartheid in South Africa and informed opinion suggests that it is a powerful response to the apartheid, ethnic cleansing and brutality of Israel in their country and in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

It seems necessary again to refute the anti-Semitic slurs in the article by pointing out that criticism of Israel because of its barbaric actions is not a criticism of Jews. I am a member of an excellent Jewish organisation which successfully reveals the excesses of Israel's policies and practices.

"Little country" Israel with the 4th largest defense force in the world, with $3,000,000,000 aid a year from the USA, and with its arsenal of nuclear weapons, may soon have to change its arrogant response to world opinion and start treating its 1.5 m "Arab citizens" and its neighbours with respect. It may soon have to stop bombing the hell out of people in the name of "security". I have just watched the film on Utube about Israel's Operation Cast Lead showing the destruction of Gaza and the dropping of phosphorous bombs on civilians including children. Until this sort of behaviour stops I will continue to boycott anything that comes out of Israel, encourage family, friends and others to do the same, and demonstrate outside the businesses of Israeli Companies such as Seacret cosmetics.

Could we please leave "right wingers" out of this, we have absolutely no stake in this issue, I've never heard of "Skinheads" attending the BDS protests and the people who do attend are styled after the Marxist thugs of 1920's Germany rather than the SA. (yes we really do have neo Antifa and neo Spartacists in our community and in far greater numbers than any Neo Fascist elements)

It's got nothing to do with hating jews, the hyperbole of Ariel is ridiculous.

It's got to do with boycotting businesses built in the west bank on Palestinian land and the BDS is supported by tens of millions all around the world including many jews.

Dear Marilyn,

<<It's got to do with boycotting businesses built in the west bank on Palestinian land and the BDS is supported by tens of millions all around the world including many jews.>>

And myself.

But as mentioned above, Strauss does NOT operate from the west bank, and to the best of my knowledge, neither Max Brenner.

---
(unless you take the view of my learned colleague, David G., who believes that the whole of Israel is in the west bank, and he does have a technical point for except for the Golan heights, themselves subject to BDS, Israel lies on the west bank of the Jordan river)

>>It's got to do with boycotting businesses built in the west bank on Palestinian land<<

Has anybody told BDS that the business they're actually planning to boycott is built in the Westfield at Paramatta? The proposed boycott has no chance of influencing Israeli government policy and no chance of bringing down a huge company like Strauss: it's just pissing into the wind while Palestinians and Israelis continue to kill one another. God I hate hippies.

Cheers,

Tony

>>It's got to do with boycotting businesses built in the west bank on Palestinian land<<

BDS applies to all companies who profit from the occupation and support a Zionist approach to Israel/Palestine.

It's Symbolic Tony.

People from the rest of the world may not know much about what goes on in the rest of Australia, but events in Parramatta are always closely watched by the movers and shakers of the world, and the Parramatta branch of any company is always the Flagship!

Houellebecq,

LOL

[Deleted. Abusive.]

As Israel has no borders and continues to steal Palestine what is Israel proper?

Dear Holleq,

Seemed to work in the other 'flagship' site Philadelphia.

After a dozen activists did a mock dance to the tune of Gaga's Telephone in front of a section selling Strauss goods the company took down references on its English website to its support of a notorious Israeli unit.

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=195963

Here is one a victim of the particular brigade.

“The soldiers then explained how while Iman was lying wounded about 70 m from the Israeli guard post, the commander fired two bullets at her head from close range. They also stated that the commander returned to her body again, put his weapon on the automatic setting, and emptied his entire magazine into her body, disregarding their objections over the walkie-talkie. One of the soldiers said:
"We couldn't believe what he had done. Our hearts ached for her. Just a 13-year-old girl ... How do you spray a girl from close range? He was hot for a long time to take out terrorists and shot the girl to relieve pressure."”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_Darweesh_Al_Hams

The commander in question was later acquitted and promoted.

This is a letter posted on Antony Loewenstien's website setting out a writer's reasons for boycotting Brenner products.
http://antonyloewenstein.com/2009/02/03/decision-to-boycott-max-brenner-products/

If it means walking a bit further to the next coffee shop I don't think it is a big ask.

Dear Marilyn,

<<As Israel has no borders and continues to steal Palestine what is Israel proper?>>

This term commonly refers to the the area of Israel before the 1967 war.

There are those who dispute Israel's right to hold onto that area as well, who dispute Israel's right to exist in the first place - I do not agree with them, but the UN and the vast majority of its members, as well as the Israeli peace movement, agree that there is no dispute about Israel's pre-1967 borders being Israel's true and rightful borders.

Immediately after the 1967 war, the Israeli government (of the day) declared that the territories taken are NOT Israel proper and will be returned in a peace agreement with the Arab nations. Indeed, Sinai was returned to Egypt while the Gaza strip was evacuated (although Egypt is unwilling to take it back). The Golan Heights will be returned as well once there is peace with Syria.

Left is the West Bank and it is a shameful and sad affair that later Israeli governments reneged on their promise to return it for peace and ordered the border (called the "green line") to be erased from all school-maps.

It is up to the rest of the world to tell and pressure Israel to withdraw to its own territory. Indiscriminately pressuring a Paramatta outlet, unguilty of the 1967 occupation, can only achieve the opposite effect, sending the wrong message to the government of Israel, Lit. "The world hates you unconditionally, no matter what you do or don't, so better take as much land as you can, it can't get any worse anyway...".

Dear Csteele,

The loss of good chocolate is all yours, but OTOH some walking is good for your health!

The Golany brigade are indeed a wild lot, relative to Israel's other brigades, a concentrate of kids with excess of adrenalin - mind you, such kids exist everywhere and unpleasant to come about here in Australia too (give them guns and no one can be safe 2km round night-clubs). There's however no indication that chocolate exacerbates their behaviour.

What does it matter where an Israeli company is located, whether it's in 'Israel or the Occupied Territories', it's a still a beneficiary of the Zionist regime.

>>Dear Holleq,

Seemed to work in the other 'flagship' site Philadelphia.

After a dozen activists did a mock dance to the tune of Gaga's Telephone in front of a section selling Strauss goods the company took down references on its English website to its support of a notorious Israeli unit.<<

See Houellebecq? These protests are more than just symbolic: one in Philadelphia was so successful the company stopped publicly acknowledging that it sends chocolate to Israeli soldiers. Who can argue with meaningful results like that?

This boycott in Paramatta will probably bring about the end of the Israel-Palestine conflict by Christmas time.

Cheers,

Tony

The usual apologists for islam are out in force with their usual anti-jewish propoganda.

csteele, AGW cherry-picker extraordinaire, cherry-picks the disquieting case of Iman Darweesh Al Hams to stigmatise all of Israel but doesn't have the wit to appreciate that islam regularly uses female suicide bombers, systemically oppresses and brutalises women as a cultural principle, is fundamentally anti-democratic, and has no human rights to speak of.

There will always be cases in relatively open and democratic societies where mavericks commit heinous acts but having said that the military commander was aquitted; this is to be compared with the islamic societies such as Palestine where heinous acts are endorsed and sponsored by such nations as SA and before his timely end, the monster Saddam.

In the context of this article I can't support the Max Brenner outlets against the idiot protestors because I don't drink coffee but next time I am near one and the ferrals are present I shall make my disgust at them known.

ho ho ho..OOOH dear

lest we forget

The killing of 10 million Christians
by the Jewish Bolsheviks under Joseph Stalin 1932-1933 in Ukraine.

These events are also known as Holodomor.
http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/holodomor-the-ukrainian-holocaust-of-1933/

and making obama angry is dumb

So who would have an interest in getting rid of Petraeus?

Here’s where the Eric Cantor connection comes in. The tip by an anonymous “FBI employee” that wound up in Cantor’s office two weeks ago came through Rep. David Reichert, Republican of Washington state, who has a friend who knows the whistleblower.

Cantor then spoke to the whistleblower directly,
who put him in touch with FBI Director Mueller.
http://mycatbirdseat.com/2012/11/a-covert-affair-petraeus-caught-in-the-honeypot/

An Israeli rabbi has given his blessing to female agents of Israel's foreign secret service, Mossad, who may be required to have sex with the enemy in so-called "honey-pot" missions against terrorists.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/israeli-rabbi-honey-pot-sex-is-kosher-for-female-mossad-agents-1.317288

you have to feel sorry for the father

Paula Broadwell's father Paul Krantz gave the New York Daily News a strange, cryptic quote this afternoon outside his home in Bismarck, N.D.

“This is about something else entirely,
and the truth will come out,” he told the Daily News.
http://www.businessinsider.com/paula-broadwell-father-paul-krantz-2012-11

Scribbler, you make some claims that really are biased.

You say that Israel “ by engaging in war and annexing territories, by building and resettling same territories, by having access to nuclear weapons yet refusing to sign the NPT, by denying many of its Arab/Palestinian citizens equal rights and by interfering repeatedly in international political spheres (eg, US election)”.

If by "engaging in war" you mean participating and living to fight another day, the "yes" you are right. Last I read, in the Arab media, it was the Arabs who started the wars not the Jews.

As for settling territories, was there a sovereign state of Palestine onto whose soil the Israelis “settled”? The Israelis occupied lands that previously Egypt and Jordan occupied. Pretty simple stuff really.

As to the threat from Israel for not signing the NPT, please note that it assures the Taiwanese not a jot that the Motherland has signed the NPT. Neither do Saudi Arabians sleep peacefully in their palaces in the knowledge that the Islamic Republic of Iran has signed up to the NPT.

Signing means nothing. A track record is what counts. Are you equally hostile to India – the world’s largest democracy – buying Australian uranium but not signing up to the NPT?

You say that “Israel can no longer obfuscate its own record of human rights abuse”. You are kidding me mate. You want to hear about abuses of human rights” Try Egypt’s discrimination against Christian or how Muslims have cleansed Bethlehem of Christians.

David G.

If by “propaganda” you mean offering facts and not fiction then yes I am guilty.

Elizann

Thanks for the feedback.

I know how many people will not allow the facts to get in the way of their opinions, when the latter is often far more seductive.

I was there myself. Initially hostile to Wikileaks but the more I looked into Julian Assange the more I thought his cause (or at least many aspects of it) had merits. Open to the facts, I revised my views.

I hope the same will happen with some readers whose opinions conflict with reality.

Mac

You ask” Where is all the "balancing" pro-Palestinian propaganda?”

May I direct you to the Fairfax press.

Marilyn

You voice legitimacy for BDS by stating its worldwide support in the millions. I bet Josef Stalin, V. I. Lenin and Pol Pot had even MORE support for their causes. But does that make it right?

Houellebecq

I find myself agreeing with Scribbler when he notes LOL to your posting of 3pm.

It is not the Jews Jonathon but the Zionists that are on the nose.In 2009 we had Jews at our 911 truth movement convention ie http://ae911truth.org/ It was never just the Jews or the Germans but always the elites who preach Zionism or Nazism.

I was so far saving my 4th&last post for today, but following Arjay's post, like the crow that was praised for his beautiful voice I must now open my mouth to sing and let the cheese fall:

Dear Arjay,

You truly raised my curiosities:

Who the hell are those "elites"?
Do all of them preach Zionism or Nazism?
Are they always bad?
Are there any under my bed (because it rhymes)?
How can I tell whether or not I (and those I love) am one of them?

Thanks in advance!

Dear Mac,

Ordinary Israelis are not beneficiaries of the Zionist regime: they pay highly for it, not only in taxes, not only in being conscripted to protect it, but also in blood, and smear too, well sometime also in chocolate...

Dear Tony,

Thanks for the fun and for bringing in some proportion!

See you tomorrow, or the day after.

Jonathan J Ariel,

First I should acknowledge the fact that you're prepared to engage with commenters on this subject, it's appreciated.

"As for settling territories, was there a sovereign state of Palestine onto whose soil the Israelis “settled”? The Israelis occupied lands that previously Egypt and Jordan occupied. Pretty simple stuff really."

More sophistry, the question is not whether any Palestinian state existed but whether or not people were living in the area, whether they were called "Egyptians", "Syrians", "Palestinians" or "Smurfs" is irrelevant--another version of the morally bankrupt "Terra Nullius" doctrine. The Palestinians just haven't "disappeared" as expected.

There were no "Israelis" to "occupy" lands at the initial stages of the invasion, that's begging the question.

The tragic and deeply regrettable fact that some of the Palestinian "representatives" and supporters are psychopaths and religious fanatics doesn't invalidate the human rights of the mass of the people. Old cynics like me might suspect that the more extreme Zionist elements in Israel find Hamas and Hezbollah very useful indeed.

Yuyutsu,Who are the elites? They are the people that President Dwight Eisenhower warned us about in 1961.He referred to them as the Military Industrial Complex.

I prefer Banking Military Industrial Complex since this system of allowing private banks to create money from nothing and loan it back to us and our Govts as debt,makes us the hard workers their absolute slaves.They are the elites by virtue of theft from us.Our own Govts are complicit via taxation to pay for this unnecessary debt.

Arjay,
Zionism can't be equated with National Socialism, no matter which way you look at it, in the first place Zionism encompasses a range of viewpoints and political tendencies.
Theodor Herzl wrote about the case for Zionism in relation to anti Semitism, the subject at hand, Jews will never be free from Anti Semitism except in a Jewish state because as he observed in "The Jewish State" Anti Semitism is caused by Semitism in the sense that every action will have an opposite and equal reaction and the longer anti Semitism is held at bay the more fierce will be the inevitable outbreak of violence against a Jewish minority.

Jay of Melbourne,Zionism like Nazism is an elitist view of the world.Both philosophies view themselves as some sort of chosen people who are born to rule.There are elements within China,India and Japan who think exactly the same way.

It is not defined by race,religion,country alone.It exists in the psyche of all humanity driven by our own insecurities.

An email I received- It is meant to be humorous, but It addresses Muslim intolerance for the society around it. However it applies equally to all religions, Jews, Christian the Amish etc

Tolerance:-

I am truly perplexed that so many of my friends are against another mosque being built in Brisbane.

I think it should be the goal of every Australian to be tolerant.

Thus the Mosque should be allowed, in an effort to promote tolerance.

That is why I also propose that two nightclubs be opened next door to the mosque, thereby promoting tolerance from within the mosque.

We could call one of the clubs, which would be gay, "The Turban Cowboy ", and the other a topless bar called "You Mecca Me Hot."

Next door should be a butcher's shop that specializes in pork, and adjacent to that an open-pit barbeque pork restaurant, called "Iraq o'
Ribs."

Across the street there could be a lingerie store called "Victoria Keeps Nothing Secret ", with sexy mannequins in the window modelling the goods.

Next door to the lingerie shop there would be room for an adult sex toy shop, "Koranal Knowledge ", its name in flashing neon lights, and on the other side a liquor store called "Morehammered."

All of this would encourage the Muslims to demonstrate the tolerance they demand of us, so the mosque problem would be solved.

If you agree with promoting tolerance, and think this is a good plan,
please pass it on...

if we had taken the signes more serriously
maybe there wouldnt have been a christ'el [lol]..nacht

"For months now the struggle against Germany is waged by each Jewish community, at each conference, in all our syndicates, and by each Jew all over the world. There is reason to believe that our part in this struggle has general value.

We will trigger a spiritual and material war of all the world against Germany's ambitions to become once again a great nation, to recover lost territories and colonies.

But our Jewish interests demand the complete destruction of Germany. Collectively and individually, the German nation is a threat to us Jews." -- Vladimir Jabotinsky (founder of the Jewish terrorist group, Irgun Zvai Leumi) in Mascha Rjetsch, January, 1934 (also quoted in "Histoire de l'Arme'e Allemande"by Jacques Benoist--Mechin, Vol. IV, p. 303).

im seeing the same things
[as i watch the moon shade the face of the sun
its like a great lump got bitten off it from this vieuw

a sign?
what would the father think..who living is not a son of god?

get over it..grow up
anyhow backl to watch the eclips..in lue of this pox of lips.

Jonathan,

Thanks for your comments. I do not consider my ‘claims’ (I prefer the word ‘opinions’) to be biased. There are any number of reported incidents of discrimination and abuse by Israel and its government, by international and Israeli sources.

Please do not confuse my remonstrations against the nationalist right-wing Likud party, which has pretty much ruled and influenced Israel since the late seventies, with anti-semitism or even anti-Zionism. I do not oppose the existence of the state of Israel. I do not hate, or even dislike, the Jewish people. In fact, I have many friends who are Jewish, some of them Israeli.

What I am opposed to is the usurpation of the ideal of Zionism by nationalists, or Revisionist Zionism, which advocates that Israel maintain control of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (by any means, it seems to me) and continues to adopt a hard-line approach in the Israeli-Arab conflict. I am opposed to this philosophy because it precludes a peaceful resolution to the current conflict.

Like many supporters of Israel’s hard-line nationalism, you ask me to confirm whether “a sovereign state of Palestine onto whose soil the Israelis “settled”?” Yet, in all the historical accounts, even by Israel itself, the land in dispute is always referred to as Palestine, and the people living there as Palestinians. To recognize and call ‘Palestine’ by its name is, to all intents and purposes, realizing it as an entity, no matter which government of the day ruled over it. By answering your own question with the statement: “The Israelis occupied lands that previously Egypt and Jordan occupied. Pretty simple stuff really” in no way dissolves Israel’s guilt over annexation of land following the Six Day War and subsequent settlement of that land. Nor, I might add, do calls for Jordan to re-enter the fray and help deal with the ‘Palestinian problem’. Israel has made its bed, and now it must lie in it.

And, for the record, some very creditable sources cite Israel as the aggressor in 1966-67.

(cont’)

I do agree with your statements regarding signing of the NPT being virtually worthless. However, Israel seeks constantly to remind us that it is the only western cog in the middle-eastern wheel. Yet it refuses to join with other western nations and sign the NPT. More than that, it rails against Iranian nuclear proliferation, urging the US to wage yet another, expensive war on its behalf.

To me, Jonathan, Israel (under the governance and control of the Likud Party) behaves very much like a spoilt child who wants to have his cake and eat it too. It displays the utmost hypocrisy in its dealings on the international stage – demanding recognition, aid and support yet accusing any who question the methods of its governance of anti-semitism and idealogical interference. There are increasing calls for Israel’s accountability, not least by notable Israelis and Jewish people and how anyone can justify the machinations of the current Israeli government is beyond me.

Cherful,
Love the suggestions for shops located around the Mosque. What a great idea. In fact I think most of these stores should be chain stores also located around the Synagogues and Catholic churches.

May-be we could also add gay marriage venues and abortion clinics.
Let's promote tolerance throughout the comunity.

November 13, 2012 "Information Clearing House" -The 2005 call by more than 170 Palestinian organizations, both within Palestine and without, to boycott Israeli products and services, divest from companies that support and sustain Israel and sanction the Israeli state and its agencies is one of the most important and potentially one of the most effective strategies to end the injustices perpetrated against the Palestinian people as a result of the creation of a Zionist state and by Zionist actions even before.

Oh dear, Stalin? Pol Pot? Sorry Jonathon, it is Ben Gurion and Begin who belong with those criminals, not the BDS movement to stop them.

Perhaps you haven't heard but there are many excellent actual Israeli jews writing about the illegal forced ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and many of us in the world are quite capable of reading them without the hasbara brigade using propaganda on us.

Thank you for clarifying, Arjay,

<<Yuyutsu,Who are the elites? They are the people that President Dwight Eisenhower warned us about in 1961.He referred to them as the Military Industrial Complex.>>

I'm relieved to find that none of my family or friends in Israel work in the military industrial complex, hence they aren't "elites". Some Australians that I know, however, do work in the military industries, building weapons to defend Australia, so I suppose I better be careful and keep distance!

I did however once known someone, a poor and simple man, who was a carpenter in the Israeli military industries (and it was after 1961) - does this mean that he was a member of the elite?
(fortunately I don't recall ever being bitten by him, or I could be infected too...)

<<It was never just the Jews or the Germans but always the elites who preach Zionism or Nazism.>>

Well some of my friends tend to be Zionists in their views, however they don't preach it, so I suppose you are correct!

<<I prefer Banking Military Industrial Complex since this system of allowing private banks to create money from nothing and loan it back to us and our Govts as debt,makes us the hard workers their absolute slaves.They are the elites by virtue of theft from us.Our own Govts are complicit via taxation to pay for this unnecessary debt.>>

I take your point, but our own government is paying for so many unnecessary things that this is a drop in the ocean.

Thanks heaven I no longer have any bankers in my family, but should any of my friends find a job as a teller, I would immediately recognize them as a dangerous "elite".

One final question: is chocolate-making part of the Banking-Military-Industrial-Complex?

Arjay:

“Zionism like Nazism is an elitist view of the world”

Zionism is not “an elitist view of the world”. It’s a nationalist movement for settling Jews in Israel. In contrast, Nazism considers the Aryan race as superior to all others, so it is indeed an elitist view.

Marilyn:

Regarding your “ethnic cleansing” argument: Please look at the number of Arab citizens in Israel today, compared with 1948. Does this look like ethnic cleansing to you? This huge growth in the number of Israeli Arabs must mean the Israelis are hopeless at Ethnic Cleansing.

You might find a much better example for ethnic cleansing if you look at the Jewish population in Arab countries from 1948 to today, where numbers dropped by a factor of 100

Stan1:

“…[the BDS] is a powerful response to the apartheid, ethnic cleansing and brutality of Israel in their country and in the Occupied Palestinian Territories…”

Apartheid? Please do give us some examples, I think you might be confused about what ‘Apartheid’ actually means. Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews, unlike the South African blacks who had their rights severely curtailed.

Ethnic cleansing? The growth in the Arab Israeli population goes against this argument, I’m afraid. See my response to Marilyn above.

“Israel with the 4th largest defense force in the world…”

4th largest? With a total population (including Arabs) of less than 8 million? A quick search revealed this data: http://www.globalfirepower.com/

Yuyutsu:

“Left is the West Bank and it is a shameful and sad affair that later Israeli governments reneged on their promise to return it for peace”

I don’t know why you say this. The West Bank was occupied by Jordan prior to 1967. The Jordanians did not want it back following the peace accord with Israel. The West Bank and Gaza Strip were offered to the Palestinians by Israel in the Camp David accords in exchange for peace, but the Palestinians rejected the offer, just as they rejected so many offers throughout the 20th century. Both sides of Israeli politics still support the 2-state solution today.

An interesting article (opinion piece) from Haaretz newspaper regarding Netanyau and Obama and the implications of Obama’s second term for Israel:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/obama-ii-and-israel-the-faultlines-are-starting-to-show-1.477638

It pretty much outlines what many believe and have been saying, here and elsewhere.

Scribbler,

Thanks for the feedback. I now have a better understanding of your view, notwithstanding my disagreement with it.

You mention those who "advocate that Israel maintain control of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (by any means, it seems to me)..."

May I ask, are the Jews the only people who are not allowed to win a war including the spoils of war (i.e. territory). If Israel is not to be singled out amongst the nations, please advise where are the demonstrations condemning the Communists who to this day occupy South Vietnam? And where are the protests demanding the United States return lands west of the Mississippi seized from their southern neigbour?

You make reference to the guilt Israel should exhibit over its"annexation of land following the Six Day War and subsequent settlement of that land". Why did nobody ask the Soviet Union to unfurl its guilt over enslaving the Baltic states and Eastern Europe? I don't recall ANYONE asking Al-Assad Sr. about the guilt he 'had' over gassing his own countrymen. And has anyone pointed out to the mullahs in Iran and the rump of the Ba'athist party in Iraq the guilt they should display for the over 1,000,000 slaughtered in the Iran-Iraq War?

Hmmm?

Seems like some but not all nations are inoculated against ever been asked about guilt.

To split hairs, I do agree with your point that there were sources citing Israel as the aggressor in 1967. i just don't hold those sources as creditable.

Dear Avw,

The West Bank was in Arab hands before 1967 and should return to Arab hands (or at least be out of Israeli hands) as soon as reasonable security considerations (and only those!) allow it. At the time there was no Palestinian-national movement, hence no Arab considered themselves "Palestinian", now they do, but it shouldn't be Israel's problem - let the Arabs sort their internal divisions among themselves.

Offers were indeed made by two Israeli PMs, but firstly they were not complete and would keep some areas in Israeli hands, especially in Jerusalem, which is the main sting. Secondly, suppose the offers were accepted, could they actually be followed? Given the Jewish settlements in the West Bank, that would have taken Israel into a civil war, causing every Israeli PM to quickly turn back.

Israeli governments, especially since the 1992 "hoops" policy, have deliberately encouraged the settlements for the purpose of never being able to return that land, even if the PM (Yitzhak Shamir at that time) wanted to return them in a peace deal (as the 3 designers of the "hoops" policy believed).

<<Both sides of Israeli politics still support the 2-state solution today.>>

For Netanyahu that is an obvious lip-service, which he never truly meant. Even Labor's new leader, Shelley Yehimovitz, believes that East Jerusalem and the major settlement blocks must remain in Israeli hands. In any case, they have tied themselves up in such a way that even if they wanted - they couldn't!

Yes, they would agree to a tiny and highly fractured Palestinian state, big deal which would not have solved any problem, neither Palestinian nor Israeli.

As Israel is unable to rid itself of the West Bank, I pray that the rest of the world will help her, forcibly as needed, to relieve itself from that curse.

Dear Yuyutsu:

The offer made to the Palestinians in 2000 included well over 90% of what the Palestinian asked for, including areas in east Jerusalem. Arafat refused the offer point blank; he did not even bother to come up with a counter proposal, choosing to renew the intifada instead.
It is quite possible that any withdrawal from the West Bank would have been difficult for the Israeli government to execute, but the Palestinians were not interested at all in pursuing this proposal so I guess we'll never know.

Different Israeli governments have different policies, just as different Australian governments have different policies on various issues. But it was a Likud government that returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in exchange for peace, evacuating settlements in the process. The idea of evacuating settlements is not so far-fetched, even for a Likud-led government.

While it is possible that Netanyahu’s personal opinion is not in favour of a 2-state solution, it is the stated policy of his government. It is also the preference of the majority of Israelis, as various polls have shown. A government that goes against the wishes of its citizens will eventually be ousted.

isn't it obvious that the Israeli Government, by settling the occupied Palestinian Territories, has made it unrealistic to be able to negotiate an equitable two-state solution?

The alternative, which could be realistic, would be to have an Israeli state which was multi-theocratic, multi-cultural and truly democratic, where all citizens could concentrate on making a few shekels, paying the rent, having some leisure time with the family, stop paying huge taxes to support a militaristic stance, --and be happy?

Jonathan,

Thanks for your reply. It is interesting to note your examples of other nations who have waged war, annexed and occupied territories. But let me ask you this: why on earth would you want Israel to be added to, or included in, that list of despotic nations or idealogies?

Again, it seems, a case of pointing the finger and saying: “But they did it! Why can’t we?” The answer is simple – because history proves, time and again, that it is wrong. I can’t imagine why anyone who is purportedly proud of his nation would wish for their country to be counted amongst the very worst in terms of human rights. But, hey, it’s your choice.

While appearing to have a adopted a more softened approach to a 2-state solution since the Likud Party 1999 Charter, which stated (among other things): "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs.", it is assumed by many (including those who know him well) that Netanyahu is simply treading the line between appearing to appease international demands and those of his own party.

In 2009, he outlined his conditions for the eventual creation of a Palestinian state, including total demilitarization – no army or airspace. Unrealistic and hypocritical (as Israel cites its own array of military arsenal as key to its survival in a ‘hostile’ area, so how it expects the newly created Palestine to survive is anyone’s guess) and by imposing such conditions he and his party are deliberating blocking advancement of any peaceful solution.

But, surprisingly, Netanyahu is not the worst.

http://www.worldlikud.com/

In particular, I refer you to the article of 29/7/12 entitled “For Knesset’s Danny Danon, unapologetic Israeli nationalism is key to political success”

Scary stuff.

The slaughter of children in Gaza tells us it must be election season in Israel. The previous wholesale killings kicked off six weeks before the 2009 elections with Cast Lead.

Now preparations are being made for fresh 'ballot stimulated' incursions into Gaza.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/secret-israeli-plan-to-topple-abbas/story-fnd134gw-1226517023094

A warning about the above link. In it you will see the shrouded body of an 11 month old baby and a wounded child being rushed to hospital.

After a year of relative peace with only spasmotic clashes and no rockets being fired the fuse was again lit in July. Minor tit for tat then continued but we again saw an escalation three weeks ago. Israeli soldiers crossed the border into Gaza, were fired upon, the IDF responded with airstrikes which in turn were met with rocket fire into Israel.

“Israeli and Palestinian officials told AFP that an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire would go into effect at midnight (2200 GMT). The agreement was aimed at ending an eruption of bloodshed which began on Monday morning when two militants were killed in twin air strikes on north Gaza which were launched as armed groups fired at Israeli troops who had crossed the border.”
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012%5C10%5C26%5Cstory_26-10-2012_pg4_4

Now with the killing of a senior Hamas leader Israel again prepares a ground assault on Gaza.

The fear of course is this round of election cycle killings might be even more horrific.

“Ahead of the Israeli elections next January, a merger between the parties of the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and the foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, has been announced. They are to contest the elections on a joint list, intending to become the largest bloc in the Knesset.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/04/europe-impose-sanctions-israel-palestinians?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

The article notes; “Among the obvious outcomes of this new coalition is the fact that Likud has become more extremist, and Lieberman more influential and more dangerous.”.

What will these two be capable of?

Sanctioning a few Israeli businesses in Australia does seem fairly insignificant but ultimately better than doing nothing. Perhaps if every Max Brenner shingle evoked the images of dead and wounded children it might have a greater impact.

Avw,there can be no denying that elements within the Zionist movement believe that they are the chosen people born to rule this planet.Why does the term "Goyim" exist?

Non Jews viewed by some Zionists are no better than pigs to be exploited.A very racist view also held by Hitler.

csteele says:

"Perhaps if every Max Brenner shingle evoked the images of dead and wounded children it might have a greater impact."

And what images should every mosque invoke?

Arjay, No one is denying that there are such people in the Zionist movement, as well as liars, embezzlers, and whatever else. But guess what: such people exist in every country, in any large movement. When corrupt ministers are exposed in a previous NSW state government, does this mean all citizens of NSW (having elected that government) must also be corrupt? If there are some paedophiles in the Catholic Church, does this mean the entire Catholic Church, as well as all Catholics (who follow the church), are also paedophiles?

As for the term Goyim, it means any non-Jews, just as the term Barbarians (in its original, not modern meaning) was used to describe any non-Greeks. It does not imply superiority or inferiority, being chosen or otherwise.

Now here’s an interesting case study:

There has recently been two articles on OLO that were in many respects mirror-images.The first was from Ismail Salami, titled “Argo: from Hollywoodism to Iranophobia” , which bemoaned the criticism of Iran/Iranians implied in a recent film. The second, the above article by Jonathan Ariel, which bemoaned the boycotting and picketing of individuals and businesses identified as Jewish. What is puzzling --and surely worthy of the investigations of a nobel laureate -- is the different reaction of posters to each article.

In the first instance there was a prevailing measure of sympathy expressed for the position of the author. Even the few who challenged the authors take, did not give the "Iranian govt/system is the incarnate of evil” response. And in the end, thanks to the insight of posters like Poirot a consensus was arrived that, anything (and everything) untoward that happened in Iran was all the fault of the US of A.

In reading the responses to the second article I really thought I was on the streets of Pamplona in July, there was so much bull-dust being tossed around. Israel was equated with Nazi Germany. And there were reams of scribble that assured us that if only Israel would give the west bank we’d all love Jews and thereafter everyone would beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks…and the wolf and the lamb will feed together yadda yadda yadda .Poor ole CSteele even came out of exile -- and after updating his social register with the venues and dates of the protests --gave us a executive summary of his anti-Jewish readings for the last six months.

And here’s a further puzzle, if Zionism is the drive to establish an exclusive Jewish state. What is the name for the drive to establish an exclusive Islamic state?

We already have the demonizing term(s) Zionist/ Zionism to describe the former,but we seem to have no similarly loaded term for the latter.Which is somewhat ironic given we have only one of the former but dozens of the latter.

The word you are looking for SPQR is "Islamist".

Well, it's Friday. I believe the protest was scheduled for yesterday. Right about now I imagine the two sides will be hammering out a peace deal.

Cheers,

Tony

good point tony
i must say you guys are going full bore
http://xrepublic.tv/node/1012

anyhow the feeling is he was on the way TO a peace meeting..
only too clever really..
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-palestinians-israel-deception-idUKBRE8AE16620121115

Israel is NOT like the Western nations.
http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2012/11/15/alan-hart-excuse-while-i-vomit/

It is a brutal occupying power, and the cause of the incoming rockets is its occupation and on-going colonization and ethnic cleansing of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, and its blockade of the Gaza Strip. That plus the fact that Israel’s leaders have no interest in peace on terms the Palestinians could accept.

its sad you cant see through the spin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRP7tOI-eIM

http://www.redressonline.com/2012/11/israels-goebbels-at-work-over-gaza-provocation/

all life comes from god the life giver
NOT LIFE TAKER*..by their works wil we know who they serve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU

till you look at the facts
its only to easy to serve TWO MASTER'$
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

When BBC ignores Israeli murder of its own cameraman’s baby,
what hope for other Palestinians?

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/when-bbc-ignores-israeli-murder-its-own-cameramans-baby-what-hope-other


In a new low for the BBC’s objectively pro-Israel coverage, the British state broadcaster seems to be doing its best to downplay the murder by Israel of family members of one of its own cameramen.

The 11-month-old son of BBC Arabic’s picture editor Jihad Misharawi was killed in Israeli tank shelling last night, along with his sister-in-law, according to BBC journalists on Twitter, and one report online (which didn’t even name him).

BBC gives Israeli ambassador free rein: Israel’s justification for latest assault on Gaza goes unchallenged on flagship “Today” programme

http://www.redressonline.com/2012/11/bbc-gives-israeli-ambassador-free-rein/


BBC gives Israeli ambassador free rein: Israel’s justification for latest assault on Gaza goes unchallenged on flagship “Today” programme

The ideology of hatred and its role in politics

http://www.redressonline.com/2012/11/the-ideology-of-hatred-and-its-role-in-politics/


Niza Yanay explains hatred as an ideology and explores the role of this ideology in Israel and elsewhere. Interviewed by Neve Gordon, she explains the relationship between hatred and political friendship.

a propaganda mouthpiece for the Israeli state and the tactics it uses to dehumanize the Palestinian people and distort the truth.
http://www.redressonline.com/2012/11/british-neocon-blog-exposes-itself-as-israeli-mouthpiece/

so what?
why give a damm
This consistent support of Israel, no matter what it does,
makes it crystal clear that neither the US nor the UK are ever going to be capable of being "honest brokers" toward a just and lasting peace in the Middle East.
http://rt.com/news/international-reaction-gaza-assault-736/

war..what is it good for?
The attack’s timing is under question with a looming Israeli election, as is the precision of airstrikes which kill civilians.

http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-strike-election-758/

i would have been just as harsh on the natzies
the more you push ..the more we must resist

its the biased reporting..the spin is in.
http://new-agenda2012.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/israeli-airstrikes-on-gaza.html

Goyim's blood translates into political power.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/pillar-of-biblical-cloud.html
In order to win the Israeli election, Benjamin Netanyahu feels the need to present the Israeli voter..with a substantial pile of Palestinian corpses.

just as we thought 'star-wars'
..was allways jewish star/war offense system
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=261602

even as israel admits..the lie
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/1114/Is-Hamas-responsible-for-Gaza-rocket-fire-Not-exactly/%28page%29/2

Dear SPQR,

You wrote;

“Poor ole CSteele even came out of exile -- and after updating his social register with the venues and dates of the protests --gave us a executive summary of his anti-Jewish readings for the last six months.”

Calling me anti-jewish is like me calling you an apologist for baby killers, all completely baseless, nasty rhetoric and puts you back in the pack of flippant, shallow trollers like cohenite and his ilk. The thing is I don't really believe you belong there. You have the ability to put some thought into your posts and as I assume a non-Jew I'm a little puzzled why you take the position on this issue that you do.

Perhaps you referring to my links as anti-jewish? Though I think the Herald Sun might argue with you on that one.

Be that as it may your post discussed the equivalency between the responses to two articles therefore in that vein I'm hoping you might be willing to explore equivalences in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

If Israeli troops cross the border into Gaza are the people living there permitted to respond to force with force?

If the Israeli air-force fires missiles and their ground forces deploy long range mortars and tank rounds into Gaza are the people living there permitted to respond with missiles of their own?

Is a severe sanction regime and blockade on another state and act of war?

One of the reasons given for the targeted slaying of the Hamas leader was because he was implicated in the capture of Gilad Shalit who was later returned alive. Are all the IDF personnel who have been involved in capturing Palestinian prisoners or in the horrendous slaughter during Operation Cast Lead also be legitimate targets for assassination by Hamas?

Do you think it is a complete coincidence that the current Israeli leadership have taken a more aggressive approach to the situation as an election looms?

These question must be addressed if anybody hopes to rise above the typical Pavlovian responses much of our media employ.

What do you think?

for those..wondering about the huge blogger presence

The IDF Blog now has atrocious gamification badges with points and rewards for sharing the content to social media. For example, if you visit the site 10 times, you get the "Consistent" badge.

http://readwrite.com/2012/11/15/unbelievable-the-idf-has-gamified-its-war-blog

If you search the blog multiple times, you're promoted to "Research Officer." Yes, Israel has gamified war. This is absolutely horrendous.

other reasons

http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2012/11/16/is-israel-escalating-war-on-gaza-to-foil-us-iran-deal/
http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2012/11/16/chief-rabbi-i-think-it-has-got-to-do-with-iran-actually/

War In Gaza: Why Now?

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/11/war-in-gaza-why-now.html

On November 14, Hamas military commander Ahmed Jabari was murdered in a Israeli missile attack. In a bitter irony, barely a few hours before the attack, Hamas received the draft proposal of a permanent truce agreement with Israel.

“Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip.”(Haaretz, November 15, 2012)

The targeted assassination of Ahmed Jabari was followed by an extensive bombing campaign under Operation Pillar of Cloud. The latter consists of a carefully planned military endeavor.

i would have called it operation pile on the mist*
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-won-t-halt-gaza-operation-until-hamas-begs-for-truce-say-officials.premium-1.478175#.UKV2o5RW6Hg.twitter

Palestinian fighters have downed an Israeli warplane flying over the Gaza Strip
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/11/16/272691/israeli-f16-jet-shot-down-in-gaza/
as retaliatory rocket attacks from the enclave
read largest prison in the world ever known..
continue to sound alarms across Israel.
http://www.jeff-goodall.com/?p=9783

least we forget to watch the real prize
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/11/15/272399/asiasat-takes-iranian-channels-off-air/

Inciting war crimes:
Israel minister says force Gaza population into Egypt, cut off water, electricity

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/inciting-war-crimes-israel-minister-says-force-gaza-population-egypt-cut-water


An Israeli minister has called for the army to bomb Gaza until the population flees en masse into Egypt’s Sinai peninsula, and for water and electricity supplies to be cut, a clear case of incitement to war crimes.

Gaza assault 'aggression against humanity': Morsi
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/gaza-assault-aggression-against-humanity-morsi-125626321.html

Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi on Friday branded an Israeli assault on the Gaza Strip in which 23 Palestinians have been killed as a "blatant aggression against humanity," the official MENA news agency said.

"Egypt will not leave Gaza on its own, and what is happening is a blatant aggression against humanity," he said, as his prime minister, Hisham Qandil, visited Gaza vowing to boost efforts to secure a truce to end the bloodletting

rocket attack on Jerusalem as pressure mounts on Netanyahu to launch ground invasion

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-launches-rocket-attack-on-jerusalem-as-pressure-mounts-on-netanyahu-to-launch-ground-invasion-8322593.html


Tanks - which usually lead Israeli incursions - along with troops were reported to be gathering near the Gaza border.

The rockets fired at Jerusalem and other Israeli cities, including the commercial capital Tel Aviv, followed a ratcheting up of strikes on Gaza by the Israeli military.

Sources said that more than 600 targets in the Palestinian enclave had been hit by last night, up from 225 on Thursday evening.

yet again
go to the cause
Killed Hamas Leader
Was In Midst Of Negotiating Long-Term Truce With Israel

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aa8_1353021916

Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel,
which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip.

This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since then maintained a relationship with Hamas leaders

more signs
no reporters allowed in
http://uruknet.com/?p=m92672&hd=&size=1&l=e

rewrite histry as we go
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/brief-truce-quickly-collapses-as-egypts-pm-visits-gaza/2012/11/16/a10d523a-2fd9-11e2-ac4a-33b8b41fb531_story.html

what are you fighting for?
look at the timming..
http://uruknet.com/?p=m92680&hd=&size=1&l=e

How outrageous that in a democracy protestors should be allowed to stand outside a business waving banners and shouting. We all know from the news from the great democracy of Israel over the last couple of days that the more appropriate action would have been to make a preemptive rocket strike of assassination and slaughter of children.

SPQR,

I'd agree with csteele, you usually present a coherent argument, however here you're defending the indefensible so we have to expect ad hominem attacks, don't we?

The Zionists are throwing a tantrum because there's an election in the near future and they're afraid the US might be losing interest, a short little war will get everyone's attention.

This is another stage in a long war that was planned in the late 19th century and started in the mid 20th century and will continue until the Palestinians "disappear" off the map.

Hi CSteele,

<<What do you think?>>
Firstly, let me correct your impressions of Cohenite. There are few posters on OLO as perceptive and as courageous as Cohenite. He has great ability to dissect issues and, unlike some others, he doesn’t let how big the placards one side are carrying or how loud they are shouting cloud his judgment.

CSteele, you are sophisticated enough to know that the roots of the current conflict in Gaza go much deeper than a question of * who was the last one to hit who*. And, if you disentangle yourself from the fine detail in Gaza and take a longer perspective you will see some amazing patterns. The same gripes being aired by the Islamic side in Gaza echo pretty near word for word the gripes of the Islamic side everywhere else:
In southern Thailand
In southern Philippines
In northern Nigeria
And, yes, even in the western suburbs of Sydney.

Is it just that everyone is picking on these guys because they are Islamic – or, could there just possibly be something else at play here?

And here’s another thing to think about, while you’re up late at night, with Sherlock Holmes spy-glass in hand, perusing your latest Hamas RSS feed, for juicy quotes. During the Iranian revolution the left sided with the Ayatollahs. But when the Ayatollahs got control they dispensed with their leftist allies–so choose your f(r)iends well.
...............................

Mac,
It pains me to be on opposing sides to you. As I consider you along with Cohenite to be one of the better posters on OLO.

Rest assured I am not defending Zionism. I am more questioning blind acceptance of Hamas & co. And (just between you and me) CSteele has a tendency to always lean the same way.

SPQR,

cohenite is as partisan as the rest of us on this forum.

He's particularly dismissive of any view or any poster who argues in opposition to his own views. He's not above claiming they're idiots or nitwits when it suits him.....nothing particularly standout in that respect.

.........

I do have a problem witnessing Israel pummeling and slaughtering with seeming impunity in Gaza. It's the worst of human barbarity and brutality on display - looks like it's going to happen again.

'The oldest hatred is back.'

Maybe, but this article written with all the usual propaganda innaccuracies is evidence of a much newer hatred.

‘...of just whose side they are on in the war between liberal democracies and the tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist forces which rail against us’

Firstly

I am a member of the Western Liberal Democracies.
I rail against the Israeli Government’s treatment of the Palestinians.

I’m deeply offended. I’m not a Jewish Israeli and my system of Government is secular and non-militarist with laws based in peace and forgiveness. It is not at all similar to the Israeli non-secular militarist government with laws based in vengeance.

Middle Eastern people are not railing against us.

We are not part of Jonathan’s ‘us’.

As an aside, every member of the Israeli cabinet is trained to kill their neighbours. Is that a common trait with Western Liberal Democracies?

To suggest we Western Liberal Democracies are aligned with Israel against ‘tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist forces’ is deeply offensive. While the Israeli’s are not seeking peace, and their actions are evidence, we in the Western Liberal Democracies actively prompt peace and understanding. It is a fundamental of our way of life.

This article promotes and encourages us in Australia, by way of deception, to hate all middle eastern people who are seen by Jewish people as the enemies of the Israeli Jews.

Thirdly

All Palestinians are not Arabs. Nor are all Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanonese, Iraqis and Iranians. Some Israelis are Arabs. They are all semetic peoples of different cultural backgrounds many of whom historically have adopted the religion of the Saudi Arabians.
The only true Arabs are Saudi Arabians.
The Arab culture is the basis of the Saudi religion of Islam. It spread throughout the mid east by conquest and trade. Essentially most groups who adopted Islam retained their own cultural identity adopting, to varying degrees, some of the Arabic traditions and they do so until this day.
The region adopted the language of the Arabs, usually for commercial reasons, just as much of the world has adopted English.

During the latter part of the 20th Century the pan-Arab movement, started and carried on by Nasser and the other Ba’athist Socialist dictatorships gained a momentum. That idea is now being overthrown in the greatly mis-named Arab Spring.

Jonathan shares his hate of some non-Jewish people with us by attempting to align all non-Jewish Middle Easterners as Muslims and Arabs and wrongly claiming they are all tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist.

Jonathan attempts to align us weatern liberal democrates with hateful land stealing, vengence seeking, repressive, non-secular militarist warmongers who train their children to kill their neighbours.

That is hate speech.

Jonathan vilifies using innaccuracies and generalities in his assignimg of negative and hateful attributes to diverse groups in his comments about us western liberal democrates and the great diversities of middle easterners.

This while this article should be never be censored an apology should be forced from it's author and the consequences of vilification and hate speech should be highlighted by the management of Online Opinion.

An acknowledgement by Jonathan of the innaccuracies he hatefully promotes should be at the very least of a requirement.

On Line Opinion should highlight it's disclaimer that the views expressed by Jonathan are not necessarily the views of On Line Opinion.

SPQR,

There are two main Zionist propaganda themes that are employed by Ariel and others.

(1) The West is still in a 1500 year long existential struggle with Islam and that brave little Israel is on the front line defending us from the Islamic hordes. As far as I understand, you agree in principle with that argument, I don't.

(2) Jews are the eternal victims of oppression and of course, criticism of the policies of the nation state of Israel are anti-Semitic, it's axiomatic that Jews always have the moral high ground, it's also monumentally arrogant. Moslems have taken a leaf from that book and invented "Islamophobia".

I certainly have no sympathy for Islam or Islamism, but this is a human rights issue. Hamas is not "the Palestinians" as the racist Israeli " Settler" carpetbaggers don't represent all Israelis. My concern for the Palestinians or the Iranians doesn't imply any sympathy for Hamas or the psychopaths who govern Iran.

I agree with Poirot we're all guilty of overstating the case.

Dear Poirot and Mac,

I think you have just had your legs pulled.

Dear SPQR,

Lol. Very droll my friend but nice imagery. It is exactly what cohenite does, goes and stands beside the guy with the biggest placard and tries to learn the slogans and talk the talk. It is a little cringe-worthy watching him constantly playing catchup with the more substantial climate sceptics though he is getting better.

Now he is attempting the same with the Palestinian issue but with entertaining missteps galore. This was a recent pearler from him on another thread;

“Israel recognises a Palestininian state; this is not reciprocated.”

Of course if he had been following the issue in any reasonable fashion he would have known the last thing Israel wants is to have Palestine recognised as a state. They have fought tooth and nail even to deny them observer status at the UN and were absolutely livid when UNESCO admitted them to that organisation.

Don't worry, in a few months time cohenite will be far more polished and we won't be able to pick him from the real version.

As to peoples 'griping' don't you think those in northern Nigeria have similar gripes to those in southern Sudan, or Coptic Christians in Egypt. Minority religious groups face similar challenges the world over irrespective of creed.

To your remark about Iran, as I said in another thread the “Kohomeini regime was several orders more brutal even than the Shah's infamous SAVAK”. It is depressing thinking what the Persian peoples might have made of their democracy if it had no been taken away from them. It would have been a very different country as they are a very cultured race.

Dear OUG,

Thank you for your links. It will be interesting to one day hear the full story about the assassination.

Oh dear; csteele being patronising and condescending; what a surprise. Such attributes are often the veneer used by the ignorant or ideologically bound; csteele is an alarmist and like all religious devotees, for belief in AGW is religious, he is querulous at best when his mantras are shown to be risible and a reflection of his intellectual defects.

Israel is no saint; but it is fighting for its existence; it is outnumbered and outgunned; it is beyond dispute that Iran wants Israel gone and prosecutes that objective through the vile Hezbollah, Hamas and Jihad generally.

In fact there is no nation in the middle east which supports Israel's right to exist; as noted Israel is a democracy with, despite some intrinsic religious fundamentalists who, quite frankly share many of the misogynistic and oppressive qualities of islam, an egalitarian, Western social structure.

What repels me is that the supporters of Palestinians ignore the inherent oppressiveness of islam in that culture, the predation of Palestinians by other Islamic nations and the aggression towards Israel by successive Palestinian 'governments'

In short I think the opponents of Israel are hypocrites and basically betrayers of Western values.

So Poirot, ordered your burqa yet?

under one god, your links are garbage; hearsay and agitprop.

cohenite

'In short I think the opponents of Israel are hypocrites and basically betrayers of Western values'

I oppose the actions of Israel.

Like to be specific and show me exactly how I am betraying traditional western liberal democratic values?

"Like to be specific and show me exactly how I am betraying traditional western liberal democratic values?"

Do you support israel's right to exist, and therein Western values?

Do you support Islamic values?

"So Poirot, ordered your burqa yet?"

No actually....I've had word that there's a worldwide shortage of dark and dense material......

Apparently, at the moment it's all been stockpiled in a small dilapidated closet situated somewhere in the depths of cohenite's mind.

facts speak for themselves

ISRAEL & PALESTINE:
THE MAPS TELL THE TRUE STORY

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html

The truth is that far from being the poor victim..it likes to portray itself as,.Israel is in fact the most aggressive and belligerent nation in the region,..having invaded pretty much everyone it shares a border with.

The following maps
show just who..'is wiping who/off of the map!'

How Israel shattered Gaza truce
leading to escalating death and tragedy:..a timeline

http://uruknet.com/?p=m92683&hd=&size=1&l=e


3 Israelis were killed as a result of rocket fire from Gaza.

This came after Israel..had killed 13 Palestinians,..including 3 children and a woman,and injured 115,..including 26 children and 25 women since yesterday, 14 November.

This will be presented by Israel,and sympathetic or careless world media..,as another justification for Israel's attacks on Gaza to stop rocket fire...

But this narrative is false.

Where there was..*..calm and an effective truce,..Israel chose to shatter it,..bringing about the current deadly escalation.

In general,..Palestinians fired rockets,or attacked the Israeli army, as a response to Israeli attacks,seeking to avoid escalation and publicly embracing a truce.

The Israeli hasbara..(propaganda machine) has been working feverishly around the clock to manipulate world opinion..toward the idea of Israel as the victim here,..which it is absolutely not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA&feature=colike

This was completely politically motivated by Netanyahu's desire to retain power in the next Israeli elections.. happening on the 22nd of January of next year.

The big question.. however,after the Israeli government's initial smearing of Iran as the real culprit,is how intensely will Netanyahu be willing to escalate the conflict,

and does he want to be in a shooting war with Iran..by the time the elections happen,so that the Israeli voters will feel compelled*..to stay loyal to him,..to see the conflict through?

Time will resolve that mystery,but Netanyahu has about 60 days in which to accomplish what he wants to militarily before the next election.

I frankly would not bet against a massive,and rapid*,
escalation of hostilities in the region,..>>and perhaps beyond.

freelunch settlers[who dont serve..in the forces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvjJ6CY4wso

so who/what..ya dying to die for?

we have 7 weeks to armogeddon
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4306834,00.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

the media is corrupted/core-ruptable*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xatMfqa_C0&feature=youtu.be

hammas rockets is the lie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOtNAhgtKmU&feature=youtu.be

we are watching the last gasp of the serphants
bringing mankind back to the stone age
http://uruknet.com/?p=m92705&hd=&size=1&l=e

listen to the voices of the reasoning?..behind this
These were some of the calls from a group of Israelis demonstrating in favor of Israel's attack on Gaza in the streets of Tel Aviv last night.
http://uruknet.com/?p=m92710&hd=&size=1&l=e

yes there are voices of reason
In Tel Aviv, across the road, another group of Israelis protested against the assault. "We came here to say that we must end this war immediately," Knesset member Dov Khenin of the communist Hadash party told the anti-war crowd, "every additional drop of blood is needless."

and they are correct..
but the silence from our brothers..

One might have imagined that the grand-children of Holocaust survivors, and other Israeli citizens, would become the poster children for social justice and human rights.

Unfortunately, in the 21st century, Israel has devolved into a wretchedly apartheid theocracy with nuclear weapons, which does not bode well for either Israel, or the world, in terms of peace.

and they alone can save gods living creation

PCBS: “More Than 7000 Palestinians
Killed By Israeli Fire In 10 Years”
http://www.imemc.org/article/61229

great way to the new century..lol


The PCBS said that 7342 Palestinians were killed in the period between September 29, 2000 and December 31, 2010.

the corperate state mate[usa,...feeds this hate the tools

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/gaza-holocaust-made-in-usa-the-latest-from-the-pen-of-carlos-latuff/

control the people..we just want land cash
http://rense.com/general95/targeting-civilians.html

its sick..sic*..
how they chose names..from the fiction of the two books
http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/11/israel-names-its-attack-on-gaza-after-biblical-war-story/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+loonwatch+%28loonwatch.com%29

“Pillar of Cloud,”..a Biblical reference
to the form God adopted in order to protect the Children of Israel and strike terror into the heart of Egyptians.!*!

If you speak English,..it would prefer you to use the less fanatical “Pillar of Defense.”...but they miss completly..the iron dome cancels faith in god....let alone the messiah
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3337&start=45

Still and all, if it’s all about exposing bad behavior, I’m perplexed.

You see, just a few short months ago on a thread titled “ Islamic riot” much of the same gang of bad behavior busters had a perfect opportunity to voice criticism of some truly bad behaviour. For those who have forgotten it was the incident which involved children holding signs calling for all those who insulted the prophet to be beheaded and, men smashing police officers over the head with placard poles.

At the time our bad behavior busters were very subdued, so much so that I seriously thought they had overdone it with their Chamomile tea that morning.

After much prodding and poking Poirot offered this incisive criticism (of the rioters?):

“I was inclined to conclude right from the moment I saw it that it was an instance of hysterical
social media hype,designed to inflame feelings toward Muslims.”
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 10 October 2012 11:25:51 AM

(Aaaah! it was all the fault of those (non Muslims) on social media!)

And then, she retreated to her favoured position of:
“No wonder there is a loss of respect in our society - a very ugly thread indeed.
Posted by bonmot, Tuesday, 16 October 2012 4:33:43 PM”

“I agree with bonmot - at least he had the sense not to get sucked into it.
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 16 October 2012 6:13:42 PM”

And here’s that other vocal advocate of exposing bad behavior, citizen Steele, delivering a stinging attack on the rioters:

“Yet when one looks at the history of the 20th century with Christians delivering the Holocaust and the genocidal mass slaughter in the Yugoslav conflict which was well into the later half of that period, all within 'modern' Europe, then any objective analysis hardly puts Islam at the head of the pack on the violence score.

I consider both Christianity and Islam as the bastard children of Judaism with all the insecurities implicit in that relationship. I think there was a very real fear dictating the movement of European Jewry after WW2 and their ultimate infliction on the Palestinians, you tell me who they feared the most in making that decision.”
Posted by csteele, Sunday, 16 September 2012 7:02:40 PM"

(he still had to bring to Jews into somewhere!)

So why are those timid bunch now sooo front and centre on this thread –has some mischievous person substituted their Chamomile tea with a batch of Viagra ?

Wow, SPQR....you've certainly plumbed the depths with that one.

How did it go?

"After much prodding and poking Poirot offered this incisive criticism (of the rioters?)"

I'm afraid dear man that your ilk of poster does himself a disservice when he's attempting to be oh-so-clever. Let's have a look at the real impetus for that comment and perhaps other posters on this thread will glean just how disingenuous you are...

Here's a comment by Jayb relating an email he "received from a mate":

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5377&page=0#147456

It relates to a shopping centre which his mate had maintained was owned by a Muslim who refuse to grant permission for ANZAC badges to be sold on the premises. I thought it was typical online incendiary fodder - and when Jayb contacted the centre management he found the the story was a total fiction.

Therefore my response as in:

"I was inclined right from the moment I saw it that it was an instance of hysterical social media hype, designed to inflame feelings toward Muslims."

So pulling a comment out of a thread totally devoid of its context is a low act indeed.

...any respect I had of you, SPQR (and I did have some), just evaporated.

SPQR,

Just for your information, here's Jayb's comment about the Mt Warren Shopping Centre and his reporting that the information in the email from his mate was in Jayb's words, "crap":

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5377&page=0#147498

You'll note that my (notorious:) response is directly underneath Jayb's revelation, and ended with my observation that such mischievous rhetoric was "not helpful to broader dialogue".

more sell/out..by media
[to quote..the bible'..the stars of media/sharon must fall

some media prop-up/dander
http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/iran-admits-pulling-strings-on-gaza-crisis/

Common sense applies here.
Why would Iran..do such a stupid thing?

just MEdia/following orders..!..like spqr?
dear per-plexed..spqr..play the victim card..its allright to hate if your the victim...right?

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/israel-pulls-out-the-victim-card-in-jerusalem/

FEAR..mission accomplished..as far as Bibi is concerned
…at least temporarily..until the truth is exposed.

'It's got to do with Iran':
Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks'..unguarded comments about Gaza conflict

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/9682414/Its-got-to-do-with-Iran-Chief-Rabbi-Lord-Sacks-unguarded-comments-about-Gaza-conflict.html


The Chief Rabbi..had been asked by presenter Evans Davis for his reaction to the situation in Gaza..immediately after delivering the daily"Thought for the Day "...on Radio 4's Today.

He initially responded:\.."I think it's got to do with Iran, actually",..before being told he was live on air.

He quickly responded
by making a plea for peace saying:.."A continued prayer for peace is needed,..not only in Gaza..but the whole region".

thats why its..*allways scripted


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/11/three_israelis_killed_by_hamas_rockets_as_idf_hits_dozens_of_gaza_targets.html

Britain's Chief Rabbi was off on his timing, but absolutely dead right about the meaning of this escalation in Gaza.

Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu has about 60 days before the Israeli elections to start a war against Iran, a war which the US will welcome and ultimately support militarily, because Iran refuses to sell its oil exclusively in US dollars.

He believes that being in a war against Iran at the time of the elections will cement his victory, because historically, voters don't want to switch leadership in times of war.

I would strongly suggest that he be very careful about what he wishes for here, in light of the reality that leadership in nuclear-armed Russia and China have gone on record, stating that should Iran be attacked, they will come to its defense militarily.

Iranian missile lie crumbles...Israeli TV
now saying long range missiles are HAMAS-built M-75 rockets.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/air-raid-sirens-wail-in-jerusalem-for-first-time/


Israeli TV says Hamas..is saying it fired M-75 missiles on Jerusalem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fajr-5

those not serving the god of life
serve the corpusss of death
http://original.antiwar.com/christian-stork/2012/11/16/big-brother-kill-lists-and-secrecy-what-to-expect-from-obamas-second-term/

the pill/or of c-loud*..
squeeky wheeler dealers getting the grease
but heck if you own it..its yours to do with as you will
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100189995/jews-still-running-the-world-implies-the-guardian/

prop/up-danger..Report:..
Rockets Fired from Egypt*..Hit Israel

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/report-rockets-fired-egypt-hit-israel_663502.html


Two major..Israeli newspapers ...lol
are reporting..that rockets fired..>>from Egypt have hit Israel.

"Terrorists..in the Sinai Peninsula..launched rockets
into Israel Friday night,"reports the Jerusalem Post..."The rockets fell*..near..an Israeli village..on the southern border,..causing some damage,..but no injuries."

The Israeli/Haaretz reports,.l."Rockets fired..from direction of Egypt..toward Eshkol..Regional Council."FALLinLINE?.

no damage was reported,in connection..with the rocket-fire..from Egypt...SO WHY>>..?..Earlier today,..the Egyptian prime minister visited Gaza..to express solidarity with the Palestinians there..recall.."pillar_of_the_cloud"

Translation:..Israeli agents-provacateurs*..
at the porous..Sinai/Israeli border..lobbed rockets in Israel's direction..as an excuse..*for Israel to invade the Sinai,..and chomp off..some Egyptian hand/land.

the lie..obominations..selling their souls.

Palestinian Figure:..Israeli Attack/on Gaza
Initiated with US..Green Light
http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9107119978

A prominent..Palestinian*..figure..condemned the Zionist regime's continued raids on the Gaza Strip,..and underlined..that Israel dared to attack the Palestinians..>>..only after it received the US green light.


Israeli military..LOL
confirms..rocket..lol..fired from Gaza..strikes outside Jerusalem

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/brief-truce-quickly-collapses-as-egypts-pm-visits-gaza/2012/11/16/a10d523a-2fd9-11e2-ac4a-33b8b41fb531_story.html

"Hamas,..the Islamist group that governs Gaza,
launched a Qassam rocket..toward Jerusalem...WE*..The Israeli military..confirmed a missile/strike..outside the ancient Jewish capital;

there was no details..of the precise location
or whether anyone was injured."NOTE:..THIS QUOTE HAS ALREADY BEEN DELETED..FROM THE ONLINE WASHINGTON POST ARTICLE..(although it is being quoted..all over the net)...

And..with good reason.*

The Qassam rocket..only has a range of 7.5 miles...And it is 40 miles from Gaza to Jerusalem...So what I am starting to think is that Israel..is firing most of the long range rockets..>>to bolster the case that Iran..is involved.

Again,..the common*sense rule applies.!*!

Why would anyone in Gaza..fire an unguided rocket*
into Jerusalem..knowing that if they hit a Christian shrine
that the world's Christians..*would instantly be enraged into supporting Israel's war agenda?

Certainly Israel has a strong motive..to rocket attack Christian shrines,..but would Muslims aim at their own Al Aqsa./.Mosque and Dome of the Rock?

IT DONT MAKE SENSE*

UPDATE:..Israel is now saying the rockets
"from Gaza" have..(as usual)..hit empty fields.[iron dome..gets less that half..of the pipebombs..but 6 times the EMBEDDED HARD*press.

UPDATE/2:..Israel reported..lol..the latest missile*..suposedly..from Gaza..fell into the Mediterrainian...

Still no comment on why so many
are getting past..their very expensive Iron/Dome..WAR*system.
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/16/israeli_negotiator_hamas_commander_was_assassinated?

inbedding?
http://thisiszionism.blogspot.com/2012/11/jane-harman-and-israeli-spying.html

So Poirot, some urban myth about Islamic suppression of ANZACs is revealed to be a myth and therefore islam is vindicated and its critics confirmed as rednecks? Is that what you mean?

I think you have been given the benefit of the doubt for long enough; your belief in AGW is akin to a fashion statement and more to do with sanctimonious egotism rather than any intellectual analysis of the facts.

But as insidious as AGW belief is tolerance of islamic activism is beyond the pale; it is especially incomprehensible when it is done by women who are in every islamic country preyed upon and treated as no better than property.

To this extent Israel is a red herring, no more than a lightening rod for a self-indulgent loathing of Western culture.

Tell us Poirot, what are the good points of islam?

'Do you support israel's right to exist, and therein Western values?

Do you support Islamic values?'

Wtf do either of these have to do with me betraying western values?

As I said, I oppose the actions of Israel.

Now why can't you specifically and exactly show how I am betraying traditional western liberal democratic values?

Careful in case you indulge in hate speech.

Mind your own business, cohenite.

I was responding to SPQR's erroneous assumptions concerning my comment to Jayb.

He helicoptered in to the Islamic Riot thread and extracted a comment of mine and then dropped it, completely out of context, into this thread to score a few points....enough said.

Poirot says:

"Mind your own business, cohenite."

You're a princess sweetheart; as I say you've got nothing to offer, but stick around, you're very amusing.

julianut says:

"As I said, I oppose the actions of Israel."

And how do you distinguish those actions from its right to exist; is the cause of the threats to Israel Israel's actions or because islam objects to its very existence; is not Israel a microcosm of the West/islam conflict and isn't this objection to Israel's actions merely a specific form of the general complaint against the West; that is, the West's hostility towards islam is the reason for islamic terrorism against the West

Under one god

The map you provided earlier today is completely irrelevant. The Arabs rejected the UN partition and initiated a war to try and destroy Israel at its infancy. They lost that war, and cannot now go back and claim the same borders again.

“Where there was..*..calm and an effective truce,..Israel chose to shatter it,..bringing about the current deadly escalation”

Are you serious? What Hamas call “calm” is a moderate reduction in the number of rockets fired into Israel, not a cessation. Is this a truce? No country can put up with daily rockets fired into its territories, certainly not for years and years. I’m really surprised the Israelis have been so patient, I’m sure any other country would have eliminated this threat long ago.

As for the myth that the escalation was due to the upcoming elections in Israel – actually Netanyahu was doing quite well in the polls, he did not need to take this risk, which could backfire against him spectacularly.

Regarding the mighty Israeli Hasbara machine, let’s look at videos exposing some Hamas propaganda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvaUmIB87-M&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pgQLGYb9Xfo

The first shows how injured civilians are faked for the cameras. The second shows a faked funeral.
Who is engaging in deception?

“Palestinians fired rockets,or attacked the Israeli army, as a response to Israeli attacks,seeking to avoid escalation and publicly embracing a truce”

Have a look at this video message from the peace-seeking Hamas to the citizens of Israel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_5y3GKudcg&feature=player_detailpage

The message? “We miss the suicide bombings. Very peaceful indeed.

Dear cohenite,

Geez mate, you have managed to drop AGW into at least half the posts you have made on this thread. If you are going to adopt a new cause celebre then you are going to have to learn to separate the two.

Further you are going to have to hurry up making your way through the playbook. Claiming the Israelis are 'out gunned' is something even they dropped decades ago after the world learned they had an arsenel of hundreds of nuclear weapons.

SPQR is a big wrap for you and your heightened level of perceptiveness, we wouldn't want to disappoint so please catch up son.

Dear SPQR,

I am genuinely interested in hearing your answers to my earlier questions;

If Israeli troops cross the border into Gaza are the people living there permitted to respond to force with force?

If the Israeli air-force fires missiles and their ground forces deploy long range mortars and tank rounds into Gaza are the people living there permitted to respond with missiles of their own?

It might allow us to lift the conversation above the sniping of the cohenites of this world.

Dear Poirot,

Here is a clip from Cenk of The Young Turks. I don't always agree with him but it is a pretty good take on the situation. I found the clip of the distraught father utterly heartbreaking. There have been more deaths of children since. Thoroughly distressing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4&feature=share&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

Sorry to jump in, but I just find this question so funny and divorced from reality:

<<If Israeli troops cross the border into Gaza are the people living there permitted to respond to force with force?>>

or

<<are the people living there permitted to respond with missiles of their own?>>

Who is there to permit or deny?
Is there a traffic policeman standing in the sky, waving his arms in the direction bullets and missiles can go, then periodically blows his whistle and changes directions?

This is a war. If your brain, nerves and arm muscles are still intact, then they permit you to shoot. Once broken, they do not permit you to shoot. Simple as that.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I think your traffic warden might've been called God by some, though he does seem to be doing a lousy job at the moment.

To clarify, why are actions by one party deemed to be terrorist acts while similar or more deadly acts by the other party deemed justifiable?

To the victims on either side they all would be seen as acts of terrorism but to those of us observing from a distance what is a reasonable response by one to aggression by another?

avw..yes thankyou..for forcing me to fact check
in doing so i seemed to recall mossad poisening of arrafat
or more specificlly..his exumation to confirm it..
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/poisoned-arafat-body-dug-article-1.1203884

https://www.google.com/search:hl=en&tbo=d&spell=1&q=arafat+poisoning&sa=X&ei=_VapUOX3EqqziQfiwYBo&ved=0CC4QvwUoAA

this isnt going to help your boy..nuttyyahoo..with his high opinon polling bling

egsactly at the wrong timming..!*!
much like children overboard..for the howard coward

anyhow
as you helped me to see
let me help you to see

see how the letter of balfore..
is a weak excuse for a coloniser to gift away its theft..

never the less conceeding the inevitable..agreement is for a two state solution..and this dont suit a influential few..running their 4th reicke..

its allmost as if they forget it was zionist capoes
who chose who fed the furnace..mostsad the mossad.

a few who installed arrafat..
[as in set up the stooge..as much as they been medling..in this mess from the git go..

[for what..?..so racists can make insane claims..
steal/kill hide facts..<<murder at will..

to oppress the natives
[ie the true semites..not the blue eyed northern jews
[the actual zionist's..but let get back to the intiial event..arrafats murder..by mossad..[the real cause..!*!

cause i trust your statement..re leading the polls..
i had to face the truth..its time you did as well!

you serve the life takers,..ie not the lifegiver*
by their deeds will we know them..the majority want peace..but a select elite dont..thus will stop at nuthin...till nuthin is left..

the worse thing is..they will go plunder somewhere else
leaving only the dead behind in the irradiated mess..
so holy to so many..yet what land is not gods...
[ie who is not gods chosen..
where is not gods lands.?

anyhow thanks for the push..
not the putche*
https://www.google.com/searchq=arafat+poisoning&hl=en&tbo=u&source=univ&tbm=nws&sa=X&ei=_VapUOX3EqqziQfiwYBo&ved=0CDMQqAI

https://www.google.com/search?q=arrafat+poisening&shva=1

look into the box..see who what your defending.
bless you for the nudge.

Don't 'dear' me csteele; your decorous mask is like your arguments, phony and hypocritical.

Typical is your comment about Israel's nuclear arsenal; Israel has declared it would not be the first country to "introduce" nuclear weapons to the Middle East.

That aside in conventional weapons are you saying Israel is superior to the massed islamic enemies around them?

And I ask you the same question I asked the julianut, not because I think you have anything worthwhile to offer but because I think this is the crux of the issue:

"And how do you distinguish those actions from its right to exist; is the cause of the threats to Israel Israel's actions or because islam objects to its very existence; is not Israel a microcosm of the West/islam conflict and isn't this objection to Israel's actions merely a specific form of the general complaint against the West; that is, the West's hostility towards islam is the reason for islamic terrorism against the West?"

leave aside irrelivance..of the map
or forget..the fact..>>stolen land cannot gainsay EVER a clean title

god gave it..men took it away
god hasnt regifted it..now resist the true god of life..not death

now men think..lol..they can sing-up godly vengance..
the pillar..lol..the cloud..its all just so clear..once facts are faced!

you wrote..""The Arabs..rejected..the UN partition""

just as they would reject anyother faulse claim
>>i own your house..you going to let me..?..lol

double standards old fiend*

""and initiated..a war to try and destroy Israel..at its infancy.""

i thought israel went way back..to when god gave it to you
but lets look at the ugly infant..by how it has matured..into a godless state of eternal war/murder mass delusion.

""They lost that war,and cannot now..go back..and claim the same borders again.""

yeah i think the two state solution was being..*too nice.
i feel stuff the whole con..and give all equal rights..
if you claim egsemption from service thats treason..[like them land stealers..stealing land as they go..the untouchable religious nutters..ruining the one good[god]'s..holy land.

""What Hamas call “calm”..is a moderate reduction in the number of rockets fired into Israel,not a cessation...Is this a truce?""

mate the few want war
if you cant accept..this is as good as it gets..your deluding

you are outnumberd..and short of terroising your neighbours..back into the stone age repeatedly..you only risk the lot by trying to get yet more..and you can kill till the end of time..it wont make them accept your racist spin....your latest patsie..mossad/'approved leader'

""No country can put up..with daily rockets fired into its territories,""

look at it this way..iron_dome was doing its job
but then nutty_yaho got frightend..[see arrafat link..
http://www.euronews.com/2012/11/13/was-arafat-poisoned-his-grave-is-sealed-off-ahead-of-exhumation/
now you just going to make the rightfull owner..GOD{of life/living} angry

and what of god?
look what you do..to his beloved holy lands

""I’m sure any other country""..lol
""would have eliminated this threat long ago.""

yes BUT..they outnumberd the natives
they lived in the past..face the reality..>>as it is today
we know who..we know why..we cannot forgive..unless you forget.

anyhow..look at the timming
http://www.euronews.com/2012/11/13/was-arafat-poisoned-his-grave-is-sealed-off-ahead-of-exhumation/

thanks for leading me to..A more likely..*truth.

"The nationalist not only
does not disapprove of atrocities..committed by his own side,..
but he has a remarkable capacity..for not even hearing about them."--George Orwell,1903--1950

few there are who can face vile
let alone expose it
http://xrepublic.tv/node/1042

ongoing media coverups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXpmzHNFxlE

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/how-israels-iron-dome-intercepts-incoming-rockets-gaza-conflict-1C7127842
200 missiles at $40,000 each is $800,000.

I wonder who will get stuck with that bill?..same same[us tax payers
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/cost_of_israel.html#.UKlJhLXl49U.twitter
who is respons-able?
http://www.redressonline.com/2012/11/why-gaza-must-suffer-again/

accountable?
http://xrepublic.tv/node/1050
Leaked document of 5000 Israeli Officials
with their email addresses: http://bit.ly/UAepwL

more background

http://mycatbirdseat.com/2012/11/does-anyone-seriously-think-its-about-rockets/

http://www.activistpost.com/2012/11/straight-talk-on-gaza.html

Racist Israeli Rabbi Calls For Genocide
and Extermination of Palestinians

http://21stcenturywire.com/2012/11/18/racist-israeli-rabbi-calls-for-genocide-and-the-extermination-of-palestinians/


In light of what is currently going down in Gaza – state terror and repression on the part of Israel against it’s occupied native peoples in Palestine, it’s safe to say that this type of rhetoric is pretty rotten,..*and revealing.
http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/israhell-on-earth-full-version/

more destractions
http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9107120140
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/11/the-real-reason-for-the-assault-in-gaza.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E21MdXe3BOQ

funny how we alone seem to have caugfht the arrafat exumation..as prime cause..this time...[the poll lead was a great help.

but back to 'the war..without end'
http://www.newsforage.com/2012/11/israel-dep-pm-yishai-we-must-blow-gaza.html

fake geography
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-officials-use-fake-graphic-justify-bombing-gaza-hospitals

god bless amateurs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RYXdoipaqnY#!

yes attack the messenger
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/idf-targets-and-defends-attacking-journalists-in-gaza.html

http://xrepublic.tv/node/1045

i rekon if ya got balls..stacked/the game rigged..prove it..go in
if israel wishes to become the worlds joke..just stop thinking and get on with it...were sick of hearing 'it'.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9686058/Gaza-William-Hague-warns-that-ground-invasion-would-damage-Israel.html

latest reports
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/latest-reports-on-gaza-massacre/

the score board
http://imgur.com/OAmn2

the real terrosist destroy infastructure
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/11/17/israel-thinks-any-palestinian-infrastructure-that-can-be-connected-to-hamas-is-terrorist/

how the 1% wage war on the 99%
http://www.examiner.com/article/war-word-origin-is-confusion-how-1-wage-war-on-99-how-to-end-war

its not going to end while you respond to stones by bombing
its like a kids slaps you..so you genocide his family..expecting what?

more of the same..its insane..
an adult needs to step in..take your toys away from you..before you generationally shame thyselves..even further
http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/tears-of-gaza-the-war-they-dont-show-you/

let the corpse [agorafat}..be dug up..you know what mossad dun
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/13/world/meast/west-bank-arafat/index.html

let the chips fall where they may.
[give next year to god..its about time he got some respect..its time he was recognised..stop despoiling ..ans act like a groanup.

forget following orders from satanists
do it for god...2013..the year of god..peace at last

the right to defend..not offend.

one under god:

I guess your secret sources have already conducted the examination of Arafat’s body, concluding beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was poisoned? The rest of us are still in the dark about the results. You seem to know a lot more about this than anyone else, are you sure you were not involved in this alleged poisoning? Please do share with us your findings.

Even if it is found that Arafat was poisoned, he had plenty of enemies other than the Israelis. But I guess you have conducted your own detective work to conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that Israel was responsible.

And why do you bring up Balfour? The UN resolution was voted on in 1947. Poor old Balfour was long dead by then. The resolution was passed by the majority of the UN general assembly. This is not a ‘false claim’, unless you also claim that the entire UN organisation is illegal. How can this be a theft of anyone’s country, let alone where no country actually existed?

“the few want war if you cant accept..this is as good as it gets”

Rubbish. No country would be willing put up with daily attacks “because it’s as good as it gets”.

“look into the box..see who what your defending”

This is exactly your problem, you only look inside the box, choosing to believe the propaganda of terrorists and fanatics. You serve the cause of those who cannot wait to resume the suicide bombings, those who are proud to be the real life-takers. I suggest you try looking outside the box as well, to see the complete picture. You might change your opinion then. But I guess it’s too much to ask for.

Just a hint – try to be less poetic and more factual in your posts, it will make your posts shorter and much easier to understand. It might even make you realise that your argument lacks substance. Also, repeating the reference to the same link 3 or 4 times does not make it any more valid.

avw..read it..and weep
please..*learn to do..due diligence
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/whatkilledarafat/2012/07/20127383653774794.html

A nine-month investigation..by Al Jazeera has revealed
Arafat was in good health..until he suddenly fell ill on October 12, 2004.

More importantly,..tests reveal that Arafat’s final personal belongings..his clothes,..his toothbrush,.kaffiyeh..contained abnormal levels of polonium,..>>>a rare,..highly radioactive element...

Those personal effects,..which were analyzed..at the Institut de Radiophysique/in Lausanne,Switzerland,..were variously stained with Arafat’s blood,sweat,saliva and urine.

The tests/carried out on those samples..suggested..that there was a high level of polonium..inside his body..when he died.

“I can confirm to you..that we measured..an unexplained elevated amount of unsupported polonium-210*..in the belongings of Mr.Arafat..that contained stains..of biological fluids,”{the director of the institute.}

The findings..have led Suha Arafat,his widow,..to ask the Palestinian Authority..to exhume her late husband’s body..from its grave in Ramallah.

*If tests..show that Arafat’s/bones..contain high levels..of polonium,..it would be more..*conclusive proof..that he was poisoned,doctors say.

""We have very substantial,..very important results.”
Unsupported_polonium..''

[continued/link..

ie..from israel..nuke facilities..
[i dont think semite/arabs
are allowed..a nuclear reacter..do you?..

so who else?

look at your mossad..my friend..and the nutty_yahoo.

by the way..is sharon/still on life support?..
dont that indictate someone has it..as a failsafe?..

evacuate the dead leader..let the chips fall as they will
but we know*..a bomb will devistate it/obliterate it unseen

aint total control great!

better too many links,..that to miss one..
LET THEM..go test arrafat..thats what this is all about.

[now im sure...so watch..how in a puff of smoke..
the the pillar..of a mushroom cloud obsures..the proof..by accident..lol of course.

my advisers..are only my spirit guides
if i need know..they nudge..or get others to...
but if you like think..what you will.

look lets play nice..for H_M..
you know..him..*G_D..the childish game..is over..

let really try
before israel gets trampled..or drowns in irrradiated/blood..

your grownup..tell your masters to grow up...
and i will use my guides advice..for looking for ways of healing...im so over wanting to be knowing this stuff..too.

try a new thing..serving thy brother..be a comforter
make gods land for the holy..not as a base for ongoing genocide.

how..can you not feel shame?..
done..IN YOUR NAME*

My dear cohenite,

If you come on to this thread and within your first dozen words label me Jewishness then proceed to be totally inane with your comments you will be seen as a jumped up little twerp and be treated as such.

I am happy to push the reset button any time you like. We have done it before and can do it again.

In that spirit I will address your question.

You wrote;

"And how do you distinguish those actions from its right to exist; is the cause of the threats to Israel Israel's actions or because Islam objects to its very existence; is not Israel a microcosm of the West/Islam conflict and isn't this objection to Israel's actions merely a specific form of the general complaint against the West; that is, the West's hostility towards Islam is the reason for Islamic terrorism against the West?"

Because I find the following version to be more demonstrably true.

"And how do you distinguish those actions from its right to exist; is the cause of the threats to Gaza Gaza's actions or because Israel objects to its very existence; is not Gaza a microcosm of the Israel/Palestinian conflict and isn't this objection to Gaza's actions merely a specific form of the general complaint against the Palestinians; that is, the Palestine's hostility towards Israel is the reason for Israeli terrorism against Gaza?"

To Jonathan J. Ariel,

The BDS movement is not anti-Jewish. It targets the Israeli state and businesses that either profit from or support Israel's human rights violations against the Palestinians. It does not target businesses on the grounds that they are owned by Jews. Max Brenner is targeted because it provides gift baskets to Israeli military personnel. The BDS movement did not link Jews collectively to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. You did. Thus, it is you, and not the BDS movement, who is promoting anti-Semitism.

To AVW,

Contrary to your claim, Israel's Palestinian Arab citizens do not have the same rights as Jewish Israeli citizens. They are systematically discriminated against. Here are some links about it:

http://www.arabhra.org/HRA/SecondaryArticles/SecondaryArticlePage.aspx?SecondaryArticle=1499

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/08/01/israel-halt-demolitions-bedouin-homes-negev

http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/03/30/map-0

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/03/30/israel-end-systematic-bias-against-bedouin

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/08/10/israel-budget-discriminates-against-children-arab-citizens

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/08/11/israel-budget-discriminates-against-arab-citizens

http://www.adalah.org/eng/backgroundhistory.php

http://www.assoc40.org/en/

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101

http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/0/d16a879d21467cfbc1256e6300355d65/$FILE/G0411812.pdf

http://www.nif.org/issue-areas/israeli-arabs/

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154463.htm

http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/

And here is Israeli peace and human rights group Gush Shalom's description of that offer from Ehud Barak at Camp David.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/downloads/baraks_offers

To Cohenite,

Contrary to your claim that, "[I]n fact there is no nation in the middle east which supports Israel's right to exist", at the least, Turkey, Jordan, and Egypt support Israel's right to exist.
Also, regarding your argument that, "The Arabs rejected the UN partition and initiated a war to try and destroy Israel at its infancy", according to Avi Schlaim's book "Collusion Across The Jordan", the Zionist leadership only accepted the UN Partition Plan as a stepping stone to getting all of Palestine, which they succeeded with in 1967, and that Irgun Zvai Leumi commander - and future Israeli Prime Minister - Menachem Begin criticised the acceptance of the UN Partition Plan because it did not give all of Palestine to the Jews.
Also, regarding your argument that there was no such country as Palestine, so what? There were already people living there, with farms, houses, schools, businesses, etc.

What does this mean:

"If you come on to this thread and within your first dozen words label me Jewishness"

"Jewishness"?

And why are you talking about Gaza? Gaza is controlled by Hamas which does not recognise Israel while the bulk of the Palestinian territorities are controlled by Fatah; Hamas and Fatah are at each other's throats; who is Israel supposed to deal with?

You cannot argue equivalence between Israel and the Palestinians or any islamic nation because because islam is a fundamentalist religion which is the antithesis of Western individual rights based democracies.

One only has to look at who supports and has supported the Palestinians; Syria and Egypt, both basketcases where the Arab spring has been revealed to be an opportunity for the fundamentalists to take over, and Iran through its proxies.

None of these 'nations' want an Israel state.

Your attempt to reverse my question is therefore ridiculous.

I maintain those who argue against Israel argue against the West and should be treated as such.

Yeah right fungas; we'll see how Morsi regards Israel in the coming months; Turkey's new islamist government has severely downgraded ties with Israel and who cares what Jordon does.

So, you agree with the Brenner protest stupidity because they give chocolate to the Israeli troops; the Greens give succour to Hamas and Hezbella; are you going to protest against them too?

The wider issue is an aggressively expanding primitive religion, islam, which regards Western democracy as anathema to its theology.

I am still waiting for some of the defenders of the protests against Brenner to express their attitude about islam.

You go first fungas.

Dear cohenite,

That my friend was an errant autocorrection. The word of course is anti-jewish which you could have found by examining your first dozen words. There is a general agreement that these things should be ignored like I did when you misspelt Palestinian.

Hamas doesn't want an Israeli state and Israel doesn't want a Palestinian one. Perfectly equivalent in most people's book.

12 members of the one Gazian family slaughtered in their house today. A marvelous example of Western values at play?

cohenite, if you seriously believe that Israel = the good guys, and Palestinians = the bad guys, just because the majority of Palestinians are Muslims, then I do not see how your input can in any way constructive.

By the way, cohenite, how do "the Greens give succour to Hamas and" Hezbollah?

And regarding the Max Brenner protests, my point was not about whether or not there is anything wrong with giving gift baskets to Israeli military personnel. My point was that the protests are about Max Brenner giving gift baskets to Israeli military personnel, and not, despite what Jonathan J. Ariel claims, because the business's owners are Jewish.

Hey Fungus,

You said that I am wrong to brand the BDS movement as anti-Semitic.

You’re kidding me, mate.

Please, don’t just take my word for it. Take the word of someone else. The word of an academic.

Not a conservative, but a far left, pro-Arab, Professor in the Department of Linguistics & Philosophy at MIT, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Noam Chomsky, himself pointed out just how anti-Semitic the BDS is.

The world famous friend of Arabs everywhere and arguably a gentleman who isn't very popular in Israel mouthed those words.

Watch the video of a interview with Chomsky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5hY-gffV0M

While it takes time to warm up and lasts about 14 minutes, it's well worth listening to, all the way to the end.

Chomsky is appalled by the BDS, who he reminds us, are nothing other than Jew haters.

Lee Rhiannon, BDS advocate, is a supporter of Hamas.

Israel are neither good nor bad; they are the primary target of islamic expansionism; people who do not understand that are either stupid or quislings.

And what does this mean:

"my point was not about whether or not there is anything wrong with giving gift baskets to Israeli military personnel. My point was that the protests are about Max Brenner giving gift baskets to Israeli military personnel."

So, you don't care that MB gives chocolate to "Israeli military personnel" but you support the BDS protest based on MB giving chocolate to "Israeli military personnel".

Clear as mud.

"errant autocorrection" says csteele.

Jewishness=anti-jewish

A Fruedian slip more like it.

csteele and fungus are pathetic; neither will admit to being islamic supporters, or deny it.

Can you please provide a source for your claim that Lee Rhiannon is a supporter of Hamas?

"Israel are neither good nor bad; they are the primary target of islamic expansionism; people who do not understand that are either stupid or quislings."

Actually, it is Israel that is being expansionist.

My point about the Max Brenner protests was what the protest is, and isn't, about. One can agree or disagree with the protest, or with the BDS movement generally, but should still be able to make the distinction between targeting the state of Israel and companies complicit in Israel's actions, and targeting Jews. Jonathan J. Ariel obviously cannot. Also, the BDS charter says that people and organisations can pick and choose what they wish to target. That is, somebody might not see a problem with sending gift baskets to Israeli military personnel, and therefore not target Max Brenner, but might have a problem with Caterpillar exporting bulldozers to Israel, and therefore target Caterpillar. Thus, it is possible for somebody to support BDS and not agree with the Max Brenner protests.

One under god:

You don’t seem to understand the difference between fact and suspicion. Nothing is known for certain yet – that is why they want to examine the body. Are you proposing to pre-empt their investigation? Or do you already have the results of this test even before they carry it out? Can you please refer me to your secret source?

“Unsupported_polonium.. ie..from israel..nuke facilities..”

Your assumption that this alleged nuclear substance could only have come from an Israeli nuclear reactor is naïve in the extreme. Have you ever heard of other countries with nuclear facilities? Countries like Pakistan? India? North Korea? The US? Russia? England? China? France? Possibly Iran? Yasser Arafat’s career as a mass terrorist spanned many decades. He accumulated a lot of enemies, even among the Palestinians themselves as he siphoned billions of dollars from the Palestinian public purse into his own accounts (embezzlement was another one of his fine qualities). If he was indeed poisoned, there is no shortage of potential candidates who might have been involved.

Also, read the following sentence towards the end of the article you kindly provided (perhaps you were too tired or felt too triumphant to read it all the way to the end):

“A conclusive finding that Arafat was poisoned with polonium would not, of course, explain who killed him”

It's a good idea to read an article thoroughly before relying on it to support your theories.

Regarding your allegation blaming Netanyahu for the supposed poisoning, had you done your due diligence properly, you would have known not only how to spell Netanyahu’s name properly, but also the fact that in 2004, the year of Arafat’s death, Netanyahu was a relatively junior minister in the Israeli cabinet, definitely out of favour with the prime minister. He was not in a position to make decisions about poisoning anyone.

I also note that you have not addressed my post refuting your allegation of land theft, I would be interested to know whether you now agree with me or you have some further evidence to provide in support of your allegation.

Fungus:

While Israeli law might not be perfect, it is a long way from the panicked cry of apartheid that is so often heard from the extreme left. It is far, far ahead of the laws in Arab Middle Eastern countries, yet no one seems to complain of apartheid there. I find this astonishing

The facts are:
Israeli Arabs can be and are elected to parliament.
They can practice the same professions as Israeli Jews.
They can use the same public transport, visit the same shopping malls.
Israeli Arabs, and even Palestinian Arabs, can take the government to the Supreme Court if they so wish.
Apartheid? I don’t think so.

Regarding your other link to Gush Shalom, an outlet of the radical left in Israel, you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t take it too seriously. I do not waste your time by providing extreme views of the radical right, so please don’t waste mine. The fact is that President Clinton, Dennis Ross, as well as Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia, who was also involved in the Camp David talks, all placed the blame for failing to reach an agreement squarely with Arafat and the Palestinians - not with Barak and his generous offer. I don’t think these men would have done so without a good reason.

My dear cohenite you really are a child.

To others,

I echo Mr Ariel's call for people to watch the video of Chomsky.

As one would suspect his take on Chomsky's position is misleading and deceitful.

On the aims of the BDS movement which include “Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall; Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194” Chomsky says “all of these things are the right things to do”.

What he argues though is that to pick solely on Israel for its sins without targeting the US invites the charge of anti-Semitism since “Every Israeli crime traces back to the US”. Further it is “A gift to Israeli hard-liners” and “It will be used as a weapon to discredit the entire movement.” just as Mr Ariel attempts to do here.

Chomsky cites two conditions that should be met when deciding if a BDS action is justified; is it helpful rather than harmful to the victims and is it educational? Looking to end arms sales to Israel certainly qualifies in his book as does boycotting “corporations acting in the occupied territories”.

So do non-violent actions against the Max Brenner outlets in Australia met that standard? I would argue that by so fulsomely supporting the Israeli brigade who will no doubt soon be in action against the Gazian population the company opens itself up to be justifiably targeted. Further the actions certainly have raised awareness of the issue in Australia thus are educational.

So Chomsky's message is by all means do BDS actions against Israel but do not target it alone and make sure they are the right kind.

To best see his point one only needs to ask whether the Israel government's action of boycotting Chomsky from speaking at any Israeli universities is helpful or harmful to Israel.

Dear Csteele,

<<To the victims on either side they all would be seen as acts of terrorism but to those of us observing from a distance what is a reasonable response by one to aggression by another?>>

I doubt the victims have time or wits to think or care about terrorism and similar couch-definitions. They see and hear rockets as rockets, bullets as bullets, and their only concern is what can be done to avoid being hit by the next round.

Can there be any other reasonable response?

Rhiannon and Hamas:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/hamas-will-never-achieve-a-palestinian-state-while-killing-israeli-civilians-20121119-29m58.html

Your defence of BDS on the basis of a distinction between Israeli government and its people is grotesque; as I have noted, unlike every other islamic country around them, Israel is a democracy; it's government is its people.

And any reasonable person's definition of hell would be to be a non-muslim in any of the islamist nations; being a muslim would only be slightly better.

As I say, fungus you and the condescending csteele, fan of the parasite Chomsky, argue for a system, islam, which is barbaric, oppressive and a blight on humanity. To argue for equal rights for islam is to support a denial of rights for not only everyone else but also the wretched inhabitants of islamist countries.

Basically you and the likes of csteele are the problem, not Israel.

avw..thankyou for nudging my advisers
regardling proof..thats in process..and being prevented..by this latest genocide..[see previous links]

lets realise the hand that deliverd..the poisen..
was likely those who had the most to gain..and as arrafat by that stage was willing to sign anything put before him..that didnt fit their adgenda

two states mate wont work

my thinking is..the assasination of the latest 'leader'
[yet again ready to sign anything for peace..may be involved..so cleaning that loose end..seems vital..so more dead..when god says live.

but say it wasnt him..no doudt we will find mossad put pressure*..on the hand..but we want who gave the order..and that goes right to the core..of this ongoing gore.

see how thousands..have been under direct israel control
that israel need only threaten..'nearest/dearest'..to get things they want done..to be done...

and thats how why and what was..was done.

as for the map issue..its not relivant
more relivant is imbedding..ie media in bed with the agressor..distorts the news ..CONTROLS THE PROPAGANDA..its treason

[im able at a glance to see media from israel..from that from palistein..the israel will show 3 or 4 acters making hysterical..a hole in a wall or the dirt..or some other little media spin.

vision will show a hole two feet wide..
or kids in govt paid for 'safe rooms'..laughing

we will also see a conned reporter beating up the little things[fluff pieces..as much as we DONT get..to see the injury of 6 reporters in the war zone...or hear of the 25 dead just last night..

but im sick of finding the info
besides which..many have been made mute..

but im angry about the pro murder spin
i need fact..linkable to a sources..specific facts..from specific sources..i need your links..gotta join the dots..feed my need to know

we see the sin/spin..from both sides..but what is telling is the visioning..and differences..of one protected..the other abandoned

masive holes in the ground..destroyed buildings[plaistein]..
no safe rooms..just wholesale foreign invader colonising state and the destruction of the assets of the neighbouring state..[that isnt really any state at all..has no control..is infact in a gulage..]

much like a prison..its the capoes
getting the cheese..just like in natzie germany.

the palistein visioning will show wholesale destruction...
yet be overytalked with pinpoint..targeted..ie deliberated
of but a fraction of the damage..

israel embedded media..report every hole in the wall/floor..road or car..[that still looks like a car/road not a pile of aid turned into rubble

funny aside from the last op[bombing back to the stone age
all that improved rebulding now sees the modernised yet again being destroyed..so it will be modetnised yet again..as war costs..sends tha invader state broke.

the media has been conned..and its the clever spin..
that is the real sin.

lest we forget the campdavid..lol peacetalks was two points
israel only followed through with one..but in light of the pillar of the cloud historic..that seems shaky now too

i feel lets give proofs..[sure my proofs will be taken down
but you know how i love links..please put some up.

[it will help all..sort the spin from the error.
[my guides say sin..but i moderate their input...cause there but for chance am i..

[never say you cant/wont/wouldnt do the same

..till you walked a mile in their shoes...
or felt the real fear[every twenty minutes..not just for the camera of the inbedded media..for todays fluff piece...

till those wanting peace..not pieces..start boycotting the grownup in this..[ie israel..these murders will go on..

till god says enough...or the media grows a pair and finds its own facts.

anyhow im still trusting next year a lasting peace
as we give 2013 to god..[life love loving logic grace mercy light]..

willingly or unwillingly.
sinj while you can.

To cohenite:

Actually, I did not separate the state of Israel from its people. I separated the state of Israel from the Jewish people. There are many Jews in many countries including Israel who are opposed to the way Israel treats the Palestinians. This website proves it.

http://www.angelfire.com/co4/intl-islamic-res/gateway/Jewish.html

For the record, I do separate the state of Israel from its people. Just because a government is democratically-elected it does not mean that all of the citizens support that government, or all of that government's actions. I do not believe every single American supports everything Barack Obama does, or every single Australian supports everything Julia Gillard does.

I read that article you posted a link to. Not anywhere in that article does Henderson say that Rhiannon supports Hamas. He says Rhiannon will attend a rally opposing Israel's actions in Gaza. Just because one opposes Israel's actions in Gaza that does not mean that one supports Hamas. It is possible to oppose Hamas and still oppose Israel's actions in Gaza

To Avw:

My point was not about whether Israel within the 1967 Green Line is an apartheid state. My point was that Israel's Palestinian Arab citizens are not treated as equal to Jews under Israel law, and are systematically discriminated agaist. And regarding the question of whether or not it fits the definition of "apartheid", the Israeli writer Uri Davis argues that it does, and that Israel gets away with it by not having its apartheid as visible as South Africa's was. That is, the situation is how you described - public facilities are not racially segregated as they were in apartheid South Africa. Also, the situation in the Occupied Territories definitely fits the definition of "apartheid".

(Continued below.)

(continued from above.)

Regarding what you said about Gush Shalom, here is Gush Shalom's stated aims, taken from its website:

"The primary aim of Gush Shalom is to influence Israeli public opinion and lead it towards peace and reconciliation with the Palestinian people, based on the following principles:

"Putting an end to the occupation,

"Accepting the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent and sovereign State of Palestine in all the territories occupied by Israel in 1967[*],

"Reinstating the pre-1967 "Green Line" as the border between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine (with possible minor exchanges of territories agreed between the parties); the border will be open for the free movement of people and goods, subject to mutual agreement.

"Establishing Jerusalem as the capital of the two states, with East Jerusalem (including the Haram al-Sharif) serving as the capital of Palestine and West Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) serving as the capital of Israel. The city is to be united on the physical and municipal level, based on mutual agreement.

"Recognizing in principle the Right of Return of the Palestinian refugees, allowing each refugee to choose freely between compensation and repatriation to Palestine and Israel, and fixing by mutual agreement the number of refugees who will be able to return to Israel in annual quotas, without undermining the foundations of Israel.

"Safeguarding the security of both Israel and Palestine by mutual agreement and guarantees.

"Striving for overall peace between Israel and all Arab countries and the creation of a regional union.

[*] This refers specifically to all the parts of former Mandatory Palestine occupied by the Israeli army in 1967 - not to parts of Syria or Egypt."

It hardly seems extreme to me.
Also, after the failed 2000 Camp David peace talks, the PLO and Israel had the Taba talks, but Israel withdrew from them.

To Jonathan J. Ariel:

I watched that interview with Chomsky that you posted a link to. For my response, please refer to csteele's answer. She took the words straight out of my mouth.

To csteele:

You wrote, "My dear cohenite you really are a child."
Please do not insult children.

fungus agrees with csteele that I am a child; children believe in fairy tales and lie; I do neither; some homework:

Rhiannon supports Hamas because she opposes Israeli defence against rocket attacks; this is self-evident to anyone other than a one-eyed bigot; if fungus thinks Rhiannon is not supportive of Hamas then let him produce a condemnation of Hamas from Rhiannon.

Fungus says:

"My point was that Israel's Palestinian Arab citizens are not treated as equal to Jews under Israel law, and are systematically discriminated agaist"

That is a lie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_on_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#Treatment_of_Jews_in_Arab-ruled_societies_and_vice-versa

"Arab and other minorities are given freedom of religion, culture and political organization. Several Arab political parties have elected parliament members in the Knesset."

Where do reciprocal rights occur in islamic nations?

fungus believes in fairy tales because he believes islamic nations will honour any undertaking to support the right of Israel to exist; I direct fungus to the concepts of Al-taqiyya and Kitman. I direct fungus to the persistent action of islamic nations to threaten Israel and the West.

fungus and csteele are not children but their childish lack of reality about islam is a threat to the rest of us.

fungus:

“My point was not about whether Israel within the 1967 Green Line is an apartheid state. My point was that Israel's Palestinian Arab citizens are not treated as equal to Jews under Israel law”

That is absolutely correct. But… that’s how it should be isn’t it? Contrary to what you are stating, Palestinian Arabs, unlike Israeli Arabs, are NOT citizens of Israel and are therefore not entitled to get the same treatment under law. This difference in treatment between citizens and non-citizens exists in every country that I’m aware of. Are we all guilty of apartheid?

“regarding the question of whether or not it fits the definition of "apartheid", the Israeli writer Uri Davis argues that it does…”

And there are many more writers who argue that it does not.

As for Gush Shalom: their stated support for the right of entry of Palestinian Arabs into Israel is a very extreme position indeed. This will spell the end of the state of Israel and will never be accepted by any Israeli government (regardless of any quota imposed). Gush Shalom is rightly described by the mainstream Israeli media as extreme and radical, the 'lunatic fringe' of Israeli society.
The rest of their stated aims are nothing but window-dressing to mask their extreme views. These ‘aims’ have already been supported to some degree by various Israeli governments in the past.

yeah i know..we got a peace deal..but
if we think its over...tell em..their dreaming..

anyhow first a laugh..[then a cry..
then some spin..dont ask why.

interview on Fox/News
http://plus.google.com/102686188005488451760/posts/QbgsbWMcGvL
with Robert De Niro..as the guest...
The host asked Robert..about events related to Gaza.

Robert replied:
“Why..do we blame Israel..or the Israelis for what they do?”

The host was shocked/*not to expectation..of his script
because he knows that De Niro..is always declaring his sympathy with Palestine.

De Niro looked at the host
and saw his confusion.....…so he continued:

“Ok let me explain,..if you were bitten by a mad infected dog,
who will you blame? the dog or its owner? Definitely the owner,

so, all the blame is on the USA
Government’s shoulders for adopting and supporting a state like Israel”

ok not much of a laugh
so lets cry..

J-wish Ritual Murder: A burnt Palestinian infant
her last breath: WARNING, GRAPHIC!

Who would Jesus bomb?
Ask your Christian/Zionist friends...
http://youtu.be/UJVDZsw8csc

UPDATE: YouTube has taken down this video for violating the rule against disgusting content (that makes Israel look bad).

UPDATE 2: You can download copies of the video here.

Quicktime (9 Meg)
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/J-wish%20Ritual%20Murder%20%20A%20burnt%20Palestinian%20infant%20taking%20her%20last%20breath%20%20WARNING,%20GRAPHIC!%20-%20YouTube.mov
AVI (4.2 Meg)
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/J-wish%20Ritual%20Murder%20%20A%20burnt%20Palestinian%20infant%20taking%20her%20last%20breath%20%20WARNING,%20GRAPHIC!%20-%20YouTube.avi
Flash Video (2.8 Meg)
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/J-wish%20Ritual%20Murder%20%20A%20burnt%20Palestinian%20infant%20taking%20her%20last%20breath%20%20WARNING,%20GRAPHIC!%20-%20YouTube.flv

boycotting..is better than this...none of its anywhere near funny.

newsweak's most influential rabbi says
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/11/21/prominent-american-rabbi-slams-latuff-as-almost-worse-than-anti-semitic/

Israel’s Shortsighted Assassination

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html


Passing messages between the two sides,I was able to learn firsthand that Mr. Jabari wasn’t just interested in a long-term cease-fire;

he was also the person responsible for enforcing previous cease-fire understandings brokered by the Egyptian intelligence agency.

Mr. Jabari enforced those cease-fires
only after confirming that Israel was prepared to stop its attacks on Gaza.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html

On the morning that he was killed, Mr. Jabari received a draft proposal for an extended cease-fire with Israel, including mechanisms that would verify intentions and ensure compliance.

this draft was agreed upon by me
and Hamas’s deputy foreign minister, Mr. Hamad, when we met last week in Egypt.

The goal was!..
to move beyond the patterns of the past.
we now know its just classic redirection
\
continues

proof..nuthing changes but the faces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThO_1L5oDEU

https://vimeo.com/54031923
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9obbRoJQ4BM

lest we forget
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-j3iQeE06c&feature=related

why the ceasefire wont work
http://news.antiwar.com/2012/11/20/israeli-fm-scolds-un-chief-for-arguing-against-invasion-of-gaza/
http://original.antiwar.com/porter/2012/11/20/news-media-misled-by-iaea-data-on-sensitive-iranian-stockpile/

fake bombs
http://www.timesofisrael.com/fake-bomb-discovered-on-jerusalem-light-rail/

the dummies guide to the middle east machinations[histry]
http://www.tomatobubble.com/middle_east.html

http://beforeitsnews.com/middle-east/2012/11/evidence-that-operation-pillar-of-cloud-was-with-washingtons-close-liaison-senior-us-military-officials-were-in-israel-with-idf-counterparts-before-gaza-attack-2446046.html

Israel has agents provocateurs inside Palestine who can be counted on to carry out acts of violence when Israel needs one. I guess these six were sloppy...or?..redflag to propup dander/anger.[yep war is hell.

warning graphic..
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/406851/20121120/gaza-idf-executed-spy-hamas-israel.htm

DESIGNED TO SHOCK/awe..by who?
http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/11/israel-perpetrator-or-self-proclaimed-victim/?

more morals of war..
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-hijacks-palestinian-tv-channel-propaganda-depicting-hamas-leaders-rats



I disagree with the claim that the anti-war protesters in Israel represent a minority. Look how tight the camera is on this "rent a ruckus" pro-war crowd, a tactic media use to conceal the size of the crowd when it is too small.

This feels like a staged event to support Netanyahu. But their expressed sentiments open a window into the mindset of Netanyahu and his followers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=iPWi6x8HshM
The above translation has been confirmed as accurate.

on a different matter altogether..jfk..lies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYmombA4WwE

if you think oswald dun it..google autopsy photo's
see how the bullit EXITED..at the bacvk[driver shot him]
but heck the same sort of lies and spin..go look at his body..back of head blown off..not killed from behind..such is the power of spin..

lets find the power of boycott
take the boys toys away from them
children shouldnt play with guns.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/dangertopeace.php

nutty yahoo's 2001 prophecy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rRBb6L2eY40

war crime?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra3ENTFeF-4
war crimes?
http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/israel-must-be-tried-for-war-crimes-over-gaza-1.1107712?

proxey wars?
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rudy-giuliani-on-violence-in-gaza-without-a-doubt-a-proxy-war-by-iran/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+mediaite%2FClHj+%28Mediaite%29

yep white phospherous[again
http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/gazaunderattack-breaking-white-phosphorus-used-on-gaza/

pilliar of hypocrazey
http://xrepublic.tv/node/1092

To cohenite,

Israel has the right to defend its citizens against attack. Just like the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against attack (and occupation). But with rights come responsibilities. There are laws of war. Unfortunately both Hamas and Israel have consistently violated them. Thus, it is possible to support the right to defence while opposing particular military actions.

Regarding your claims about Lee Rhiannon, I looked all around the Internet for Lee Rhiannon's position on the recent violence between Israel and Gaza. I couldn't find any. The only source you have provided is Gerard Henderson's column, in which he writes "it is reported" that Rhiannon will speak at a particular rally. So we do not even know if she will, and if she does, what she will say.

Regarding the treatment of Israel's Arab citizens, the only source you provided to argue that "is a lie" that they are discriminated against in Israel is the "Israeli views" section on the Wikipeda entry for "Views on the Arab-Israeli Conflict". :/ I repeat: the "Israeli views" section of the Wikipedia entry for "Views on the Arab-Israeli Conflict". How about looking at the Wikipedia entry for "Israeli Arabs", or looking at some of the links I posted earlier?

To Avw,

You have missed my point.
By referring to "Israel's Palestinian Arab citizens" I was referring to the Israeli Arabs. They are still considered to be Palestinians as well as being Israelis.

Regarding Gush Shalom's support for the Palestinian right of return, I typed the words "Palestinian right of return feasability" into the Yahoo! search engine. Thankfully Yahoo! corrected my misspelling of "feasibility", and I found these links:

http://www.amazon.com/Palestinian-Refugees-Return-Eastern-Studies/dp/0745317766#reader_0745317766

http://al-awda.org/facts.html

http://electronicintifada.net/content/palestinian-right-return-feasible/5608

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/research/papers/abusitta.htm

Regarding your claim that Gush Shalom's other positions have already been taken by various Israeli governments, I would like to see some evidence of that.

Fungus, I find you disingenuous; any attempt at equivalence between Israel and its surrounding islamic countries, especially the vile Hamas, is unreasonable.

In any event this sums up my attitude towards the greens and Hamas:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_giving_the_greens_a_rocket/

And just think we're getting 2000 of these types in a week courtesy of this government led by our esteemed PM.

To cohenite:

This recent press release from the Greens calls out both Israel and Hamas for violence against civilians.

http://greens.org.au/content/australia-should-call-gaza-ceasefire-immediately

Regarding that Andrew Bolt article you posted a link to, the fact that Hamas has rockets does not mean that there is no Israeli blockade of Gaza. Here are some links to information about the Israeli blockae of Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle+east-10520844

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/report/palestine-report-260609.htm

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Ocha_opt_Gaza_impact_of_two_years_of_blockade_August_2009_english.pdf

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/11/23/roy/sctFniw6Wn2n9nTdxZ91RJ/story.html?s_campaign=sm_tw