Simon Cowan,

Thank you for this excellent and informative post. I agree with you. Nuclear powered submarines seem to me to make sense for Australia. Here are muy reasons – mostly the same as yours.

Firstly. I understand the US Virgina Class submarines never need refuelling (in fact they can’t be refuelled). They run for a life time (33 years) on their initial fuel load. . They cost $2 billion each. Cheaper than the Australian ‘Son of Collins’ idea that many people advocate.

They could be maintained by the US if we allowed the US to have a submarine base in Australia.

Importantly, it seems to me to be nuts to embark on another program with diesel powered subs. The Australian, Son of Collins would be entering the water from about 2030 and the 12th would be expected to last until about 2070 to 2080. What potential enemy would still be operating diesel subs by then?

Diesel subs be next to useless compared with any threat by the time they begin service. They have to keep coming to the surface to get refuelled – and be easily detected from space and sunk by the enemy.

Australian diesels have to keep getting towed back to base to get repaired. What a joke.

As an ex-SA person I believe that State has come to expect favours from Canberra. In the case of River Murray water upstream users (where the rain actually falls) have to cut back so SA people can enjoy their paddle steamers and pelicans. Holden has to be subsidised indefinitely and new whizzbang defence projects have to be dreamt up to keep contractors like ASC in work.

However what SA does have is an ordinate fraction of the world's easily mined uranium. They should exploit that to the max if necessary by re-purposing the ASC to work on reactors, most likely part-assembled. The skill base is waiting to be used. If successful the ASC could apply their expertise to the whole of Australia. The figure of $36bn (same as the NBN) has been bandied about for the Collins replacement which is way more than enough to kick start the ASC in a new direction. Forget subs for a few years.

Submarines are a vital element in Australia's defence, far more important than jets (increasingly redundant due to drones), surface ships and soldiers. If we spend money on nothing else, we should have an effective submarine deterrent.

It is criminal that our Collins class subs are so ineffective. This proposal to lease nuclear subs from the US, provided it is true that the US would agree to lease them, offers a legitimate, cost-effective solution

Taswegian,

I wouldn't let ASC near managing anything, let alone nuclear power plants. Would we want our first nuclear power plants to run over budget and schedule like the ships they try to build. or to have the reliability of the Collins class Subs. ASC knows nothing about building civil nuclear power plants. They can't even build the things they were set up to do.

ASC is an ex government organisation. The government culture is deeply entrenched. That cannot be changed. Give them a diminishing role in future subs and leave it at that. When we do get to build nuclear power plants they need to be project managed by the best organisation we can get - and that should be determined from public tender open to the world.

Just in case some don't remember, the Collins class sub was another of those brilliant Labor decisions. To build more diesel subs would be another bad joke.

It really is time to admit that the South Australian experiment, that of trying to live there, was a failure, & shut the whole shebang down.

If we were to stop wasting money & water on South Oz, & money on Tasmania, the rest of the country could be quite prosperous.

Perhaps as Tasy is an island we could excise it from Oz propper, & use it as a camp for boat people. The existing population could be warders, just as they were when the place was first settled.

If we want to run any subs successfully, we have to move them to NSW, or Qld. Subs are a volunteer arm of the navy, & they will never get enough crew, of suitable quality to move to Perth.

Just like Darwin, the blokes might not mind, but their ladies won't have it. It's too expensive, & too far from mum.

The defense force sent my youngest daughters bloke to Darwin. In the 12 months they have been there, he has been off doing courses & such for 7 months. Young ladies do not like living alone, particularly in places like Darwin.

He has the choice of resigning, getting a posting now, rather than when this one finishes, or become a bachelor. After spending hundreds of thousands of our money, training this bloke, they will probably loose him.

I see no value in preparing endlessly for types of wars which probably won't happen - eg wars where a handfull of conventional Aussie subs can conceivably make a difference.

If Australia has a spare $40B or so, which I doubt, then why are submarines even on the list, let alone at the top of it?

Last Saturday, the Foreign Minister announced a $100M program to assist our near neighbours to eliminate malaria. This is one quarter of one percent of the envisaged $40B.

Imagine what could be achieved to foster good will and peace amongst our near neighbours over time with, say, one tenth of our current military budget. Against this, consider that these subs are actually intended to be used against our near neighbours... being diesel powered, they could never project force much beyond the third line of breakers at Manly, for they will run out of fuel and supplies. So, our neighbours must be the targets. Is Australia's mooted Asian language program going to be the language of attack submarines and warfare?

Imagine the lasting value that could be obtained from improvements to education and democracy in PNG, Timor Leste, Vanuatu, the Solomons, Fiji... and for much less than any imagined $40B folly with submersible targets.

By the way, lest there is confusion. I certainly do not advocate handouts or cargo cult approaches. I have in mind skill transfer and targetted financial support. The malaria program is an excellent example. Eradication on our doorstep will go a long way towards preventing its spread southwards through the Top End. Projects such as these will last far longer and bring greaster harmony and peace than any bunch of sub's couple of decades.