'Once a couple set themselves up together, they want to appear successful at that particular enterprise. If they really don't get on, they weigh up the pros and cons and decide whether the pretence is worth the torture of staying together.'

Too true Poirot. But I look at it also as an aversion to calling the loss on an investment. Once you invest x amount of years in something, you're more likely to try to ride out the bumps in the hope things will get better. That's the whole basis of marriage isn't it better or worse? That's what saltptre was getting at that that idea is anathema to "you're worth it". Commitment, compromise? What the hell do I know I suppose I'm not even married.

They stay in in the hope prices will rise again. They don't want to accrue the loss. Then there's the devil you know of course.

'Maybe some women find the best access to power is from within the confines of the married or partnered state, whereas outside independence wouldn't offer them the same mechanisms for forthright action and influence.'

I think also, being sexist of course, that many women by nurture or nature really are more into their kids than some career, and the money from the provider allows them to have their cake and eat it, with the sacrifice that they lose a bit of financial independence. Now if you're determined to stick at it, or these days if the courts will protect the cake for you, you might as will keep eating like there is no tomorrow.

I'm sure there are some dreadfully abusive patriarchs out there, but as I said it's not my experience and I cant see it as the norm that the feminist likes to extrapolate to.

What are your thoughts on the extrapolation from rape to insults and 'making me feel bad'?

A guy in a bad relationship is a wimp, a woman in a bad relationship is a victim of the patriarchy seems to be the summation of it all.

'I don't buy your attempt to justify feminist position on domestic violence with statistics about fatalities'

Oh, dear! I most humbly apologise for letting silly things like dead women get in the way of your hard fought right to be as prejudicial and closed minded as you think is your right as a member of the privileged gender that is responsible for the overwhelming majority of the raping and bashing that creates all those inconvenient statistics.

'the feminist influence upon the debates about domestic violence has painted every woman as a saintly victim and every man as an evil abuser '

The statistics - the credible ones, that is, not the pathetic faux methodologies cooked up by self-serving MRA 'studies' posing as research - show over and over and over again that gender violence results in women ending up killed, raped or seriously injured to an overwhelmingly disproportionate degree, compared to men.

'what you have to understand is that all of us men are programmed to be warriors, to be competitive, to want to succeed, with out such drives there would be no progress no technology and no society'

And where is all that programming coming from? A toxic society that breeds in men from the cradle that they are the privileged gender because they have the brute-strength advantage over women. One that leaves boys with little option but to play along in this destructively competitive endgame or be deemed - heaven forbid - unmanly.

And where has all that self-centred, egotistical warriordom got us? Endless war. Global imperialism. Financial ruin. Environmental destruction. Imminent annihilation of the species. Nice one, guys. Take a bow.

At least you noble warrior alpha males can take comfort from the fact that, when you finally destroy the world, you'll be taking women with you.

Nice one, Killarney,

All the men on this thread have been thoughtful and reasonable in their responses - and in return you come on here spitting venom.

What do you want from men when you can't even discuss the issues without resort to odious, sarcastic and derogatory rhetoric?

I think it might be instructive to examine your own attitude for clues as to why some men feel that women aren't the sugar and spice they're made out to be.

'Maybe some women find the best access to power is from within the confines of the married or partnered state, whereas outside independence wouldn't offer them the same mechanisms for forthright action and influence.’

And maybe some women see that for the snivelling, manipulative drivel it is. Maybe some women actually demand their right to independence and security on their own terms. Just because some women like the pretend power that comes from pussy-whipping a man whose gender privilege has given him the means to achieve the power the patriarchy denies her, that doesn’t go for the rest of us.

Women can't win, can they? If they settle for back-seat power tethered to an alpha male's every whim, they're cunning bitches. If they assert their right to follow their own path and challenge the restrictions that society puts on them, they're evil feminists.

Either way, it's the men who win, because it's the men who make the rules - at least for now. They know they've had it too sweet for too long. And they're terrified of losing it.

'All the men on this thread have been thoughtful and reasonable in their responses'

Good Lord. If you honestly believe that, Poirot, then I feel even more sorry for you than I already did. Or haven't you noticed that all those 'thoughtful and reasonable' men have made it virtually impossible for women to freely participate on this forum, unless they share your unending capacity to grovel to the perennial male ego.

I don't think you'd know a misogynist if one fell on you.

Killarney,

"I don't think you'd know a misogynist if one fell on you."

Hey, hey, you reckon?

But I certainly recognise a vinegar-sour misandrist when she swaggers on-board, all guns blazing in the direction of anyone who happens to possess a penis.

It's all a bit sad really - and the greatest shame is that your attitude and style does "nothing" for your cause.

Here is someone who is worthy of my respect as a defender of women - and of environment - and of sustainability...because it's all connected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandana_Shiva

If you could garner even one iota of this woman's wisdom and graciousness in defence of the women of this world, you might be able to climb out of the pit which you inhabit.