@Pericles.

Has the word been exiled from philosophy now? I hadn't heard. And what of the poor 'ol mathematicians after Godel?

It is still the subject of considerable debate, Martin Ibn Warriq, as you are undoubtedly aware.

>>@Pericles. Has the word been exiled from philosophy now? I hadn't heard.<<

The problem with "proofs" of God, is that there are none that do not begin with the premise that God exists. In other words, the existence of God cannot be derived independently of the presumption of God.

"One general criticism of ontological arguments which have appeared hitherto is this: none of them is persuasive, i.e., none of them provides those who do not already accept the conclusion that God exists—and who are reasonable, reflective, well-informed, etc.—with either a pro tanto reason or an all-things-considered reason to accept that conclusion." (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/

>>And what of the poor 'ol mathematicians after Godel?<<

Ah yes. Gödel.

The man who said "But I am convinced of the afterlife, independently of any theology. It is possible today to perceive, by pure reasoning that the existence of the afterlife is entirely consistent with known facts."

With logic like that, who could remain unconvinced?

Do you believe in an afterlife, Martin Ibn Warriq? Seriously?

*but I would rather my dogma than your dogma that says that the state and people of goodwill should allow parents to kill their own children in the name of freedom of religion.*

Ah, good old Catholic semantics at work once again.

How many "children" are put to death in Australia each year?

They will talk of children, or infants, or little ones, or any
other language thinkable, in order to push emotional buttons.

Fact is that most abortions are carried out before 12 weeks
and involve a foetus, which is little more then a human organism.

If the Catholic Church really cared about the "little ones", they
would start flogging off some of their huge real estate holdings
and start feeding those starving to death around the world.

But of course pontification is so easy to do.

Yabby,

Methinks you are too rash. I wonder how many of those starving masses, or their parents at least, are Christians, let alone Catholics? Or, have possibly been truly cajoled or influenced inordinately by any Christian doctrine into increasing or staunchly maintaining their rate of propagation? Broad brushes may smear widely, but will lack clarity and definition, let alone reveal truth.

Also, you do Mishka a disservice in your apparent misinterpretation of her response to Yuyutsu, who himself seems to have fallen into some sort of malaise. Yuyutsu is very religious, but I would suggest that he has been sadly misled somewhere along the line.

As the question of abortion is truly one of conscience, it falls to those poor unfortunates having to make such a devastating decision (at least in good conscience one would hope that it would always be a devastating decision), to reconcile their own conscience and their own soul with the responsibility of such a decision. Surely in the end result, due care, even abstinence, would be a wiser course; but then all are not wise, at least not all of the time. Many a slip, and such may possibly be excused; but the careless and unthinking should rightly be stigmatised. No perfect world, but one should always hope, and perhaps if possible act, for improvement. Maybe the threat of a 6 month course of intensive religious instruction in morality might prove an effective deterrent to sloppy habits? Blame should always be placed where it rightly belongs.

Yabby, I refer you to my post of 2/12 at 9:56:37 AM in which I said "I would like to point out that child can mean 'son or daughter'. It refers to the relationship of the foetus to the mother and Mishka Gora's usage is therefore quite correct, whether it is for an embryo, foetus, or infant. It is the child of the mother and father, regardless of its development."

Yabby, you are the one twisting semantics and peddling propaganda.

We are all human organisms. An organism is "any living structure, such as a plant, animal, fungus or bacterium, capable of growth and reproduction". (Chambers Dictionary) A foetus is not "little more than a human organism". It IS a human organism, as are you and I.

I spoke of children, because that term encompasses the various stages of development of which Yuyutsu was speaking. He referred to children both prior to and after birth. He made the claim that parents should be able to kill their children without state interference. What else am I supposed to call them?! They weren't created in a test tube via genetic engineering. Even an embryo has parents and is therefore a child.

As for the Catholic Church, there are many things I criticise about it - anyone who knows me well can attest to that - but allow me to point out two errors in your reasoning. 1) Dogma cannot be judged by other aspects of the Church. I can believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church without approving of every little thing that its representatives do. They are human, after all, sinners like me. Some may be guilty of hypocrisy, but I prefer to think of them as merely people who fall short of an ideal. It is good to have an ideal even if one fails to live up to it. 2) The Church does not have huge real estate holdings. Here in Australia, it is regularly closing and selling off parishes due to low numbers, and low numbers mean low income. In France, all churches built prior to 1908 using taxpayer funds are owned by the state, which means almost all Catholic churches in France are state-owned - and just as well because their upkeep is enormous. And even if the Church were wallowing in wealth, as you seem to think, I think you will find that Catholic charities and aid groups make one of the highest contributions to feeding the hungry, and so forth.