Yuyutsu,

There is one paramount universal edict, that 'Thou shalt not kill', which is held not to include the killing of beasts, but is held by many to have come from God, is supported by every faith of Man and is held to refer to the killing of humans - with the only exception being when in defence of the life of another human, and only if killing is necessary in that defence. This is embraced in law, conscience, morality and faith in all civilised societies. Any deviation from this law of Man and God is illegal, immoral, and a mortal sin.

In war, killing is held to be permitted when in defence of life against a brutal aggressor - whether that defence is of one individual or of society at large. This is imperfect, and war should always be a last resort, and killing as limited as possible.

In society in peacetime some exceptions are deemed necessary, as in the execution of convicted murderers (though even this is not permitted in some quarters), and in respect of the abortion of certain pregnancies in certain circumstances - though this area is troubled indeed. Though each individual must be held to his own conscience when it comes to abortion (and some would argue that they will answer to God), morality, law and conscience may allow an abortion to be held to be in defence of life in the case of significant genetic, physical and mental defect in an unborn foetus. Some may argue that defence of life may also apply when a pregnancy is unwanted, when there is reason to believe that it would not be in the best interests of a foetus to be allowed to go full term, though this is somewhat conjectural. It is also highly conjectural when it comes to a pregnancy which is just untimely, unwanted or inconvenient. In this, the law is somewhat in dispute, but would almost certainly not be in accordance with the highest level of morality or the law of God. However, God is compassion, and is forgiving of our weaknesses.

Yuyutsu,

No-one can know when a soul may enter the life of an unborn child, and it is my belief that the soul represents the presence and the will of God. It is also my belief that whilst a soul may select an embryo or foetus as a worldly host, that embryo or foetus is the product solely of the biological parents. Hence, a baby does not select its parents, but rather God or a soul itself selects a suitable host.

In Man's and God's law, infanticide will always be immoral, illegal and a mortal sin, without exception, as entry to society will occur automatically at birth, needing no further introduction, and all must accordingly be held to the law of the society in which they reside, and hopefully to God's law. This surely is God's will, as surely as God resides in the life of every child even as it draws breath for the first time.

May God be with you and give you guidance.

Dear Saltpetre,

From you I would expect something more intelligent than blindly citing the current western-civilisation credo. If you were born a few centuries earlier you would also include in your thesis the "divine right of kings" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings), but apparently that section fell out of grace.

Collusion between church and state is not new, where clergy seeking worldly convenience compromise religion.

Ideas such as that one who just took a breath is essentially different than what s/he was a minute before in the womb, or that one occupying a human body has more rights than one occupying say a dolphin body, are arbitrarily conjured by men for their convenience, not by God.

Social norms are not divine.
Shaping God according to the desires of people and kings - no thanks!

Saltpetre, thank-you for your balanced reply to Yuyutsu.

Yabby, perhaps you should read the sources you quote more carefully and less selectively. The Institute for Works of Religion relates to the Vatican in its secular capacity as a state. It is a non-profit institute, whose "surplus is used for religious and charitable purposes". Your article also states "that Pope Benedict XVI had issued an Apostolic Letter that established the Financial Information Authority as an independent agency to oversee the monetary and commercial activities of all Vatican-related institutions, including the Vatican bank. It will monitor all Vatican financial operations and make sure they meet international norms against money-laundering and the financing of terrorism."

I don't understand youre reference to 300 chances to have a baby, and I don't think you're in a position to judge whether or not I live sustainably or to make the accusation that I "do harm". You know nothing about my lifestyle. Given that most western countries are struggling to replace their population, I also reject your insinuations about over-population. I do not advocate an open-border policy, so I cannot see how limiting population growth here or in the West generally is going to alleviate over-population elsewhere (if it does indeed exist). My attitude to problems such as these is to attempt to create solutions, not to kill off the people experiencing the problem.

Lol Mishka, so finally by 2010, the old pope sets up an "independant"
authority to make sure there is no money laundering or terrorism
being financed by the Vatican Bank. Did you check which cardinal
heads this authority?

The fact remains that there is vast wealth tucked away in all sorts
of Catholic coffers and its not being spent to feed the starving
babies. But its easy for them to pontificate to the flock.

The human population keeps growing at around 250'000 per day. The
population explosion of the last 100 years is on the back of cheap
and abundant oil. What will you do, when it starts to run out?

If any of us were living sustainably, we would not be plundering
the world's ocean of fish to the point of sending species extinct,
we would not be wiping other species out as our species keeps growing
in numbers.

There is a simple solution. Give women a choice about how many
children that they actually want to have. Yet in places like the
Phillipines, women who have had 5,6,7,8 children, plead to have
a tubal litigation. The Catholic Church controls the hospitals and
denies them this option. The Catholic Cardinals do their utmost to
deny people access to Govt funded family planning. Where is your
conscience about the hunger, suffering and misery that the Catholic
Church is enforcing on these poor people?

Yabby,

Who's plundering the oceans?
It wouldn't be highly industrialised countries would it?

Who's contributing the greatest to the extinction of species? Industrialisation has only ever benefitted humankind. It's "for" us and "against" nature. It's a continually developing mechanism for keeping nature at bay.

Yuyutsu,

For all your posturing and criticism of humanist thought, you fail to perceive that man as he has developed, is the product of an evolutionary chain from his beginnings as a ranging plains hunter. His brain had to develop to the extent it has in order for him to survive in competition with true carnivores. He is a primate whose ancestors came down from the trees to hunt protein.

Your brain can conceive the entity of "God" because of its advanced form. Whether it's a case of God shaping our minds, or our minds shaping God - we are the physical, psychological, behavioural and social products of our particular evolutionary path.