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The Forum > Article Comments > Pornography: Who’s sleeping with whom? > Comments

Pornography: Who’s sleeping with whom? : Comments

By Helen Pringle, published 8/9/2011

Locating the political, civic and equity impact of recent pornography debate.

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Perhaps Ammonite confuses the argument that 'the author is choosing an abusive sub-set of porn to represent all porn', with her own imagined argument that people 'dismiss the dark side of pornography'.

I would be happy if the author used the term 'Some Pornography', or even 'degrading and Violent Pornography'. Even 'Most pornography', though I would not agree with that. But it is plainly ridiculous to put all porn into the same basket.

This is the trouble with these debates. There is as many different genres of porn as there is genres of literature.

'those of us who are not directly involved in its production are made responsible for it, because our reality as ‘respectable’ and respected women is built on their ‘fake’ bodies.'

If this is true, then it is true of romance models, which cater to predominately female view of relationships and men. Men are no more obliged to replicate Mr Darcy than women are Jenna Jameson. Sex and the City, Home and Away etc. Most work on the premise of women manipulating men and each other for the prize bad boy in order to tame him.

'I do believe that filming sex acts where ANYONE, male, female, Straight or Gay, is demeaned is a retrograde mark on our society.'

Do you believe violent crime as depicted in movies is a retrograde mark on our society?

There are sites on the interwebs that feature men suffering all sorts of painful abuse to their genitals, being verbally humiliated, 'cuckolded', you name it. It is fantasy. As, if you have perused Nancy Friday's work, rape is a fantasy with a significant number of women. Sexual fantasy is complex.

I am interested if the author would have the same objections to porn if it was computer generated, or if the same subject matter appeared in text rather than video.

All in all I think it's intellectually lazy to lump all porn in together and to not even discuss the medium and why sex fantasy in film is more harmful than other fantasy or sex fantasy in other mediums.
Posted by Houellebecq, Thursday, 8 September 2011 1:51:52 PM
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"Pornography also affects even women who are not involved in its production. In fact, those of us who are not directly involved in its production are made responsible for it, because our reality as ‘respectable’ and respected women is built on their ‘fake’ bodies. So the central issue about pornography for a woman on the left like me is sexual subordination, and how to end it."

So let's ban all fashion and women's magazines because they are using women that aren't close to our reality.

What a lot of cr*p. This is the feminist thought police out again. Ban everything that might make someone think less of themselves. Ban movies, because not everyone can be a hero. Ban short skirts because many women feel inferior because they can't wear them.

Helen Pringle claims not to be for censorship, but then wants to apply the most onerous version possible.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 8 September 2011 2:20:46 PM
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For what it's worth I agree with Houellebecq and rObert. The problem with this article is that it's absolutist. It seems to be arguing against the concept of pornography by only objecting to a certain variety of it. But I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be possible to make pornography that doesn't degrade anyone.

Notwithstanding, I like the slant of this article. I appreciate the writer's efforts to declare herself and her views in such a comprehensive way. Intellectual honesty is such a rare commodity!
Posted by Sam Jandwich, Thursday, 8 September 2011 3:16:23 PM
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The author writes: "Pornography also affects even women who are not involved in its production. In fact, those of us who are not directly involved in its production are made responsible for it, because our reality as ‘respectable’ and respected women is built on their ‘fake’ bodies."

This is intellectually lazy codswallop and a fine example of why as long as the pornography debate is dominated by authors such as this it will get nowhere and achieve nothing other than derision and exasperated sighs.

Firstly, define "respectable" and "respected." Are you arguing that the only determinant of a woman's "respectability" is whether or not she performs in porn media? Because that is utterly ludicrous.

And what is your definition of a "respectable" woman in the first place? Because in my grandmother's time it meant women who wore gloves and hats when they went out the door and didn't smoke in public.

Really. We need a robust debate about certain kinds of extreme pornography. Nobody in their right minds advocates pornography that depicts degrading violent abuse of anybody. But if you aren't prepared to define what you consider pornographic in the first place then you don't have an argument, you're just pushing stereotypes and generalizations and it doesn't come much lazier than that.
Posted by briar rose, Thursday, 8 September 2011 3:17:22 PM
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'Nobody in their right minds advocates pornography that depicts degrading violent abuse of anybody.'

I'm actually not so sure Briar Rose. The human psyche being what it is, there seems to be men who enjoy the fantasy (Even the reality perhaps) of having a woman stand on their testicles, spit on them and uriniate on them, among other things.

I understand some sub-cultures in the gay community are into some quite violent sex too.

If such a fantasy is consentual, who decides it is degrading. And what if the degradation is essential to the fantasy or proclivaty? For all involved in the activity as actors and audience. Where is the harm?

One could argue the humiliated and degraded are the same gender as the targetted consumer in this case, but it's still humiliation and degradation and you cant be sure no women find it titillating or are consumers of it. In fact these men's humiliation/degredation sites don't seem to ever be entertained enough for a topic of investigation. Maybe it's because men are assumed in control even when tied up and painfully tortured, humiliated and verbally abused.

Not my cup of tea, but who decides these things. I have noticed a surge of CFNM (Clothed female naked man) sites, where many clothed women humiliate a vulnerable naked man with taunts. It's a tame form of sexual power-play, but who's to say someone cant categorise that as degradation.

People seem happy enough for fantasy in other mediums but not in film it seems to me. The author even says any concerns about the actors isn't integral to her objections, so that's why I ask what of computer generated fantasy or fantasy in other mediums. We very quickly and easily get into the territory of thought crime as soon as we change mediums.
Posted by Houellebecq, Thursday, 8 September 2011 3:49:00 PM
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If the fantasy is consensual, Houllie, I'd argue it isn't degrading. I take degrading to infer some kind of force, manipulation, persuasion to participate in something against one's wishes.

So in consensual situations its a fantasy of degradation, not the real thing.
Posted by briar rose, Thursday, 8 September 2011 4:58:19 PM
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