Dear Divine_msn,

"If you die instead of or as well as the baby - no probs I guess."

I'm afraid that's just the beginning of legal probs for the midwife, or friend that helped, or husband that supported.

Can most women physically walk out in the midst of labor?

Even if they are not physically prevented there and then from walking out, they could still be charged as a result and be incarcerated for years in a higher-security prison for what you named "lack of due care". For every practical purpose, the choice "go voluntarily to a low-security prison - or we'll place you later in a high-security prison" is nothing but incarceration, perhaps even worse, because in a prison there is a limit to what guards are allowed to do with your body, whereas in hospital, the doctors may drug it and cut it against your will.

Obviously, no one expects you to support all women's decisions, some of which you may well dislike and consider irresponsible, but there's a long way from not-supporting to coercion.

Yuyitsu <"...whereas in hospital, the doctors may drug it and cut it against your will."

Gee, is that right?
Which hospital in Australia allows that to happen to pregnant women?

Unless it is a life-threatening situation, NO medical person can drug or cut you without permission in hospitals in this country Yuyitsu.
And even in life-threatening situations, they always try to get permission to operate or give medications to the woman from next-of-kin first.

If you had previously said to the Doctor/Midwife that you are not to be 'cut',or have any drugs, during your labour, and a life-threatening situation occurs involving you and/or your baby, would you or your relatives then be happy to accept one or two deaths?

No, of course not.

I am not saying there are never poor outcomes from some births in hospitals in Australia. But I do know we have one of the highest success rates in the world for positive labour outcomes and healthy mums and babies.

I am sorry you feel that way about hospitals Yuyitsu, and I hope you are never in a position to have to rely on the mainly dedicated medical staff in those hospitals to save your life one day.

Dear Suzeonline,

"But I do know we have one of the highest success rates in the world for positive labour outcomes and healthy mums and babies."

This is the crux of the matter. Here indeed you mentioned the three keywords:

"Success", "Positive" and "Healthy".

You may take the meaning of those words for granted, based on western culture and values, but for me these have a completely different meaning.

Success:

For you it means biological survival.
For me it means the ability to follow spiritual principles without falling into material temptations.

Positive:

For you it means the production of a live baby and a live mother.
For me it means a spiritually-uplifting experience for all involved.

Healthy:

For you it means physically healthy.
For me it means spiritually healthy.

Therefore, regarding "would you or your relatives then be happy to accept one or two deaths? No, of course not.", don't be so sure. If the birth was conducted in a sanctified manner and its results were renounced and left to God, then whatever the results, such a birth is a cause for celebration.

About the legal consequences, I think we need to research further, suppose a mother [goes to hospital but] refuses to be treated, would she be charged with "lack of due care"? Maybe someone here can provide us with a more informed legal advice.

Yuyustu, you crazy kid! What extraordinary experiences or stories have formed some of the opinion you express?

OK - your body, you have the right to choose. When there is another party involved, in this case a viable full term foetus or newborn child, the 'right' is not entirely yours. The State has an interest in the welfare of that child, a reasonable concept developed to protect against adults who fail to adequately provide or are hostile towards the child.

However, for example, if you were a birthing woman who chose to attempt natural delivery devoid of medical assistance - despite advice that your baby was transverse lie and unable to proceed AND you were able to tolerate the agony without begging to be taken to a nasty old hospital until inevitable death from obstructed labour - then you would have no problems. YOU ARE DEAD! Dead folk don't have a lot of troubles. Certainly can't be 'incarcerated'. Probably wouldn't be overly concerned with issues facing the 'Support Team' either.

In any case surely you rugged individualists would have a Plan B. Like in event of death, everyone clears off and when your bloated twisted remains are 'discovered' it's obvious you went through this alone .... or a nice deep hole and claims you left the area without giving a forwarding address ...

There you go - all worked out. No cuttin' or druggin', no coercion or imprisonment from me ... Just a bemused question: Are you for real?

Yuyutsu,

I take it you've never found yourself staring down the barrel in a situation where your unborn baby has suddenly been monitored as heart-stressed. Similarly, I suppose you've never looked on bewilderingly as all hell breaks out in the delivery room in an effort to prepare you for a hastily convened caesarian section.

I can assure you than when I awoke and was told I had a healthy baby boy, I felt most spiritually uplifted and relieved that I'd been in a hospital and had been attended by intuitive and professional nurses and doctors.

Please don't give me that guff about "sanctified manner" and "whatever the results, such a birth is cause for celebration"...there is only one result that could lead to celebration after any birth and that is "life".

Dear Divine_msn,

I must assume that you posted your last message before reading my reply to Suzeonline. If you did, it could clarify some of my views.

"The State has an interest in the welfare of that child,"

Oh, I am sure they aren't the only ones who have such interests. Feel free to substitute "The State" with "The Somali pirates"; "my childless auntie"; or "patients waiting for an organ donor", etc.

Specifically, the state has an interest that the child grows up to become a useful part of "the workforce", a tax-payer and a positive statistic (of course, the hard part of achieving their ambition is dumped on the parents while the minister and his department will sleep soundly when the baby cries at night).

"a reasonable concept developed to protect against adults who fail to adequately provide or are hostile towards the child."

Why is it always those with the guns who are at liberty the develop concepts and experiment them on other people's families? As for a "reasonable", I agree -that reason can even be measured, either 5.56, 7.62 or 9mm in diameter. What is it that gives bullies the right to decide what's good for me and my children? (Answer - the bulge on their hip!)

"YOU ARE DEAD"

So are you suggesting that a person should be so selfish as to not care what happens to their friends and family after they die?

"Plan B"

Never heard about forensic science?
Or is life on the run such a fun?
Why should I have to live as a criminal when my actions were true to God, when I did nothing wrong... well, except for being too weak - history is always re-written by the victors.

Dear Poirot,

"when I awoke and was told I had a healthy baby boy, I felt most spiritually uplifted and relieved"

Correction: you were emotionally uplifted. Please don't confuse the two.

The only thing worth celebrating is our sincere efforts. That is our sole responsibility - not the results, which are in the hands of God anyway (even in a hospital).