Haha. I love the phrase too posh to push!

Why not man who wants to go through labour.

Tell you what, next time I have a splitting headache, I'll not take any codeine I'll just breath deeply, play whale songs and try to have an orgasm out of the pain while enjoying my spiritual life-affirming experience.

Then I'll tell horror stories to anyone who will listen how bad my headache was and how I was so tough and 'natural'.

I mean it was fine to romantisize the guteral vomit inducing pain of child birth like it was some virtuous spiritual right of passage or womanhood when that's all there was on offer, but a pain free alternative makes redundant the need for those kind of comforting justifications.

This all seems a bit gender-political. I wonder if the same agonising over this would eventuate if doctors were mostly women rather than Birth Rapists.

For mine, midwives have a sneering antagonism towards especially male doctors based on envy, sexual tension and a belief men shouldn't really be interfering with secret woman's business int he first place.

Only a woman knows...

It is the same situation as men soldiers fighting under a female with no combat experience.

Anyway natural birth is only the start, wait 'til the Breast Feeding Nazis come into action!

Yeah, I agree H.,
a lot of the 'keep calm' and 'it's natural' brigade are over-compensating for the intense and confronting pain of it all.

It IS very painful. It IS very frightening.
What adds to the fear is the knowledge that only the mother is experiencing and risking... it is a peculiarly isolating experience.

I personally feel I was in a state of shock for some months following each of my births - particularly my first and second.

It's not often you confront your own mortality so graphically.
Is this a spiritual experience? Well, I guess.

There is a strong traditionalist crowd that would say the pain is 'worth it'. But what does it prove, really? Does the pain increase a mother's love towards their child? I think not.

I felt my pain was expected and accepted by others, my injuries were downplayed and accepted by others, including my own family, and that I was meant to be overwhelmingly concerned with the wellbeing of my newborn at a time when I had literally gone through a nightmare.

In any other circumstance, we would say that pain increases stress and other negatives...

"Why should women be told they are NOT to have a caesarian if they request it, and have means to pay for it?" - floatinglili

Reason #1: If unnecessary it poses far greater risks to mother and child than vaginal delivery.
Sale of narcotic painkillers, eg. morphine is restricted. You may REQUEST and have means to PAY for it but without a Doctor having very good reason to PRESCRIBE, you're not going to get it (legally). That's because of risks involved with these substances.

Reason #2: The only time a patient pays full cost for c-section is if they're a foreign national residing in Australia and have no or inadequate health insurance.
Otherwise, in the Public system taxpayer foots the bill. In the private system where almost all patients have health cover same principles apply as all forms of insurance. The greater the volume and value of claims, the higher premiums become - for everyone. No insurance? Medicare will still pay a proportion of Surgeons, Anaethetists, Paediatricians fees.

BTW - Cosmetic surgery simply for aesthetic purposes is purely personal expense.

Labour and birth are painful! Some women suffer more than others obviously, dependent on factors like duration of labour and individual pain tolerance. Plus any woman who's had 2 or more will tell you each was different. The skill and patience of attendents can help enormously along with medication to take the edge off. Epidurals can be used if tolerance is exceeded. HOWEVER, the more 'intervention' during normal labour, the greater risk of complications developing. Best possible scenario is a healthy mum at full-term delivering without drugs or mechanical assistance.

Caesareans cut out pain of labour, but post-surgery pain lasts a hell of a lot longer with recovery far more protracted. Plus a demanding baby to care for .. There are initial restrictions on many aspects of everyday life and post surgical complications include potentially fatal bleeding and infection, nerve damage, adhesions down to 'minor' issues like scar sensitivity.

Women deserve every care and support during pregnancy and birth however I don't believe in automatic 'right' to choose surgical delivery.

divine, I don't necessarily think you are responding from the only medical position on the relative safety of caesarians.

The risks posed by vaginal birth are real, and the effects can be felt years after the birth, for example stabbing, searing pain in sex.

The risks of surgery and incision can be minimal, are minimal, to the point where elective surgery is a commonplace occurence.

Why are these common results of vaginal birth not considered by midwives when discussing their position?

Why is facelift under general 'okay' when a caesarian under epidural not?

I agree that the recovery time after major abdominal surgery is a problem, but then, I couldn't sit straight for at least a year after my natural labour...why is the pain and trauma of natural labour not considered in its true light?

My guess is that every body expects women to 'know' that it is their fate to pass a watermelon. Unfortunately, the mind does not 'know' this apparently self-evident truth, and the experience can be rather a shocking one. No doubt meat cows (who are'born and bred to be killed') and soldiers also feel the same way, when their own times of challenge come.

floatinglili - I never said vaginal birth was risk free. All births entail an element of risk. I am assuming, correct me if wrong, that you either tore badly or had a large episiotomy? I'm also thinking there's distinct possibility that the injury was poorly repaired? Whatever the problem I do sympathise. No woman ever gave birth, then rose from the position and proclaimed a fervent desire for immediate re-impregnation, to scale Everest or even suggest a nice game of tennis. However you seem to have suffered far more than the norm and I hope that time and/or treatment has relieved the situation.

I merely stated facts on safety and best outcomes. Pregnancy and childbirth entail varying degrees of suffering - much is simply unavoidable. Natural is best. If it's not working then one moves to Plan B. Elective caesareans without valid indications are significantly more costly in both health and economic outcomes. This is fact.

Caesareans performed for valid reasons save mothers and babies. This is fact.

My argument is about the overuse and abuse of surgical delivery for the wrong reasons which is on the increase, the over medicalisation of birth - a natural physiological process by the way which would occur in the vast majority of cases completely unaided by a third party, and the cost we as a society are paying.

A facelift is non-essential cosmetic surgery fully funded by the person undergoing it.

A caesarean section with epidural may be essential surgery to preserve the life of a baby and mother and is rightfully funded by taxpayers, health insurance and to far lesser degree, the patient.

A non-essential c-section performed for 'social' or non-valid reasons is a waste of health resources and poses additional risks to the wellbeing of both mother and baby.