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The Forum > Article Comments > Dispelling the myths about school chaplains > Comments

Dispelling the myths about school chaplains : Comments

By Tim Mander, published 12/8/2011

The decision to allow school communities the option to receive federal funding for a chaplain requires some clarity...and a High Court ruling.

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Tim is right to say it is a false dichotomy whether chaplains *or* counselors are employed in schools. Perhaps a combination of positions can be intertwined, including social workers and psychologists, as support teams.

The dichotomy being played out though, Tim, is that chaplains be Christian or not. Your place a lot of emphasis on spiritual needs denies an increasing proportion of the wider Australian population who do not envisage Christian spirituality. You emphasis so-called 'school communities' to overwhelmingly selecting Christian chaplains, and that may work in Queensland, but it does not work for entire school communities in many suburbs of Sydney or Melbourne, or even schools in other mixed communities. It also denies the closedness that could occur in the chaplaincy selection process as a result of inherent widespread parental apathy about school administration, or even manipulation by stacking school councils or individual school P & C Assns.

The 'study' that found 98% of principals who had a govt funded chaplain wanted govt funding for a chaplain has a number of faults, including the confimation bias empahsised in this sentence.

Moreover, it is highly inappropriate for you, as 'the chief executive of Scripture Union Queensland', to refer to schools as "our schools". How dare you.
Posted by McReal, Friday, 12 August 2011 10:04:17 AM
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"A key piece of misinformation muddying the issue is the false assertion that chaplains are there to proselytise."
"About the Author

Tim Mander is the chief executive of Scripture Union Queensland, Australia’s largest employer of school chaplains in government schools. "

Material I've posted previously. The about page has been changed significantly since I've posted this with the detail changes

"Welcome to SU QLD... We're the largest employer of school chaplains in Australia. What makes us tick is that we want to bring hope to a young generation. And we do this through our school chaplaincy service, camps, holiday programs and kids-at-risk programs. Please stick around to find out if we can help you or your family in any way.""
Tim Mander - CEO, SU QLD" - http://www.suqld.org.au/home/

Those who are familiar with evangelical christianity would know what's meant when the term "bring hope" is used.

From the previous version of the about page

"so that they may

come to personal faith in our Lord Jesus Christ,

grow in Christian maturity and

become both committed church members and servants of a world in need." - http://www.suqld.org.au/about/index.php

It's quite clear that "the largest employer of school chaplains in Australia" believes that evangelizing is generally the reason for what they do. The material referenced by others from Access suggests that they hold a similar view.

Removing references to their goals to evanagalise children which were on their website until recently does not change the facts.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/school-chaplains-worked-miracles/story-e6frg6nf-1111118239078

TBC

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 12 August 2011 10:46:56 AM
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Part 2

I've also seen notes from a document quoting Tim Mander. The link no longer works and I've not seen the original personally.

http://www.suqld.org.au/nscp/files/An
"School chaplaincy has also proven to be a strategic and effective way to connect the local church and school communities. There is the potential for schools, in their haste to take advantage of the current funding, to omit local church involvement. Whilst it takes more time to develop these partnerships, without them the chaplaincy service runs the risk of diluting its purpose and distinctiveness. Now, more than ever, it is critical for Christian communities to be an integral part of the formation and development of SU Qld Chaplaincy Services."

To finish, a short bible quote for those christians who don't have aproblem with Tim's public stance and what he's been telling supporters.
James 5:12
"Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your “Yes” be yes, and your “No,” no, or you will be condemned."

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 12 August 2011 10:47:30 AM
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The school chaplain policy is a Christian recruitment drive, as is the requirement for religious indoctrination.

This toxic practice should be abolished.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 12 August 2011 10:51:17 AM
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Robert & Shadow Minister

I do not get this opportunity often, with you both of you at once, I agree with everything you have posted.

Robert

Excellent work with deconstructing what Tim Mander's agenda is truly about.

Evangelising is not freedom of speech, it is forcing doctrine onto young minds.
Posted by Ammonite, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:09:34 AM
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Congratulations on a very noble sounding article on the chaplaincy program. Unfortunately, despite all those kind words, I won't be ever allowed to become a chaplain. Why? Because I happen not to be a Christian. You, Tim Mander, just defended a program that considers people who are not religious to be second class citizens. Not just behind the veil, but openly. It is part of the policy to discriminate against non-religious people like me. There is nothing noble about it.
Posted by Alterans, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:15:07 AM
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I have no doubt that the vast majority of school chaplains are lovely people who do really nice things. But that doesn't change the fact that chaplaincy, spiritual guidance, pastoral care or any religious service does not have a place in our state schools.

Rather than chaplains serving in a "first-response capacity", I see them rather as an unnecessary middle-man (if you'll pardon the gender-specific term). There is no reason that students could not approach a counsellor in precisely the same manner that they approach a chaplain, but without the impeding factor of a particular religious affiliation. The services that chaplains provide over and above those of better-qualified counsellors are superfluous - and in some cases detrimental - to the needs of students. If students need pastoral care, it is readily available from their church, the Salvos or other *non-government* religious organisation.

In reference to the author's statement that chaplains have a "neutral, rather than disciplinary role" - what does this mean? In what way are chaplains "neutral" where qualified non-religious counsellors are not? Proselytising or not, "neutral" is not a term I'd apply to a religious role.
Posted by shellity, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:18:10 AM
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Tim seems to be basing his opinions on 2 false assumptions

(1) that The High Court Challenge is about the role of chaplains.

It is NOT it is about the legality of the commonwealth funding chaplains in state schools. The argument is a legal and constitutional one and has noting to do with the role chaplains may or may not play in our society.

By arguing that because he likes chaplains their funding should not be questioned is saying "because we are nice people we should be allowed to break the law as we are not really doing anyone any harm" the law is the law and should be obeyed.

I think if Tim actually read his bible he would find many passages extolling the virtue of obeying the laws of the land and very few suggesting that it is OK to break the laws.

> Continued below
Posted by Dug, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:19:14 AM
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(2) Tim asserts "(chaplains) have been a much-loved part of the Australian landscape for decades."

On this issue he is just displaying his ignorance and arrogance, Chaplains of all sorts may be much loved and appreciated BY PEOPLE LIKE TIM but they are certainly not loved or appreciated by everybody. Perhaps if Tim was more interested in the truth and less interested in supporting his own beliefs he would have openly and honestly questioned a wide range of people about what they felt on this subject.

I know many people who have been hurt and damaged by
"God bothering Sky Pilots" turning up when they have suffered heartache or trauma an making the most inappropriate and uncalled for comments about their beliefs. This shows the true and uncaring nature of some Christians, they only listen to what they want to hear or believe not the truth of the matter.

Yes some chaplains are good people Yes some Christians are kind and caring Yes some religions do go out of their way to do good things in times of trouble and hardship but that role is not exclusive to any religion or belief system. There are good bad kind and unkind in every group.

To say otherwise is just a pure fabrication, and Tim should remember telling lies is one of the top 10 things his beliefs tell him not to do.

If he has any guts he will make a retraction of his comments and apologize for spreading misinformation

I will not be holding my breath though !
Posted by Dug, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:19:39 AM
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Robert mentioned a link to the about section of SU Qld. Good thing few things on the internet ever disappear completly. this is the about section of SU Qld from 2009: http://web.archive.org/web/20090914023926/http://www.suqld.org.au/about/index.php?page=1

It says:
**
We exist in order to undertake our MISSION:
To see young lives transformed by engaging them with Jesus, the Bible and the local church.

As we engage in our mission, we will realise our VISION:
We want to see a transformed generation of young people impacting Queensland for the Kingdom of God.
**

Not to subtle about their MISSION.
Posted by Alterans, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:27:43 AM
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I read here a lot of misinformed ignorant secular bigotry. I attend a Church who supplies a Chaplain to a local school. She is a trained school teacher, (one who would in the classroom have children in her care) who interviews parents with the child whose children have problems at school. No religious indoctrination of children! Do you intend to deny Christian teachers right to teach in Public Schools because they have influence over children.

Schools in Muslim areas have the right to employ Muslim Chaplains.
Posted by Philo, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:30:30 AM
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No thread about chaplaincy would be complete without reference to ACCESS head, Evonne Paddison's, speech to the Anglican Evangelical Fellowship.

Scroll down to highlighted text - although the speech in its entirety is revealing.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/55338278/ACCESS-ministry-s-head-Evonne-Paddison-s-speech-to-Anglican-Evangelical-Fellowship
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:33:15 AM
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In my opinion, we can't do away with these pesky chaplains (whatever religion) fast enough. I mean, why would you want an extra person at schools caring for the children, listening to their concerns, meeting with the parents, providing meals to those in distress, using their own time (outside hours) and resources to assist those in need, etc.

We need less of this! Instead, put it all back on the teachers where it belongs.

The chaplain at my local high school does amazing work for/with the students, staff and families. She is highly regarded in the local community and much loved by the students. Take her out of the mix, and I can easily count more than 20 local families that will be significantly worse off.

But you're right. Better we get rid of all that rather than risk her mentioning the name of God in front of an unsuspecting student. After all, I'm sure that's her only motivation for what she does...
Posted by rational-debate, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:40:32 AM
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Philo said: "Do you intend to deny Christian teachers right to teach in Public Schools because they have influence over children. "

The problem is that the current policy does in practice deny non-religious teachers that right. The questions is not whether it would be right to discriminate against Christians, but whether it *is* right that the chaplaincy program discriminates against those who are not.
Posted by Alterans, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:41:36 AM
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Poirot, while you were posting your link I took the liberty to copy parts of the speech from one of your earlier posts. Hope you don't mind.

Evonne Paddison, the CEO of Access Ministries would disagree with Tim Mander.

From a speech entitled 'Making Disciples in Every Generation' she said:

"The first step in becoming a disciple is clearly believing, but so many of our young people have never heard the gospel. They will not hear it unless we go and tell and make disciples of them."

"In Australia we have a God-given open door to children and young people with the Gospel, our federal and state governments allow us to take the Christian faith into our schools and share it. We need to go and make disciples."

"I believe that this is the greatest mission field we have in Australia: our children and our students. Our greatest field for disciple making."

"There is an enormous amount of Christian ministry going on in our schools, both at state level and at national level both in government and non government schools, but we must ask how much of that ministry is actually resulting in Christian conversion and discipleship growing and resulting in church growth?"

"There are 3.5 million students in Australia, not a bad mission field is it?"

"To minister to students is a cross cultural mission, and much of our thinking about ministry and schools has had the goal that our students will be contacted, converted and discipled...."

"Unfortunately, although some have been won to Christ, through the school ministry programs, not many have made a quantum leap to church."
Posted by Neutral, Friday, 12 August 2011 12:00:12 PM
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Dear Philo

If any school teacher took it upon themselves to preach their religious beliefs to children then they would be reprimanded and possibly dismissed.

The problem is not with a persons beliefs it is with them being put in a position to use their beliefs to manipulate young children.

If schools were allowed to use this funding to employ secular guidance offices in the same manner as they employ teachers there would not be a problem.

It is that preferential treatment is given people of religion and people with no religion are excluded from the scheme that is causing the problems.
Posted by Dug, Friday, 12 August 2011 12:15:56 PM
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Tim tries to compare chaplains in schools with those in various other areas of adult life. There is no comparison. Adults are perfectly capable of making their own decisions about whether or not there is any truth to religious beliefs. Children are not. They will believe whatever an adult in a position of authority tells them. That is the very reason that Christians like the author are so keen on the chaplaincy program. It enables them to convert children before they are smart enough to realise what a load of garbage they are being sold.
If they are not there to proselytise, then why is the only necessary qualification for the job a religious one?
It would be like having a role as a "football" mentor. The only qualification is that you are a keen football player. However, you are not allowed to talk about or teach football. This would be a pretty bizarre role.
The article just shows the dishonesty of Christians, if this man is truly representative of Christians (and I believe he is). They appear to have little respect for the truth
Posted by Rhys Jones, Friday, 12 August 2011 12:35:01 PM
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Tim Mander is being disingenuous at best about proselytising in schools: what goes on is surreptitious proselytisation - groups with trendy "like wow kids isn't this great, you're so special" names and events. Chaplains by definition provide religious ministry.
Posted by Seamus, Friday, 12 August 2011 1:04:50 PM
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Ammonite thanks.

Another cached document which appears to be where the previously referenced aims of SU Qld were sourced from

http://www.godless.biz/wp-content/uploads/AimsBeliefWorkingPrinciples.pdf

"Aims, Beliefs and Working Principles of Scripture Union
Adopted by the International Council 1992
Aims of Scripture Union
Working with the churches, Scripture Union aims:
a) to make God's Good News known to children, young people and families and
b) to encourage people of all ages to meet God daily through the Bible and prayer
so that they may
~ come to personal faith in our Lord Jesus Christ
~ grow in Christian maturity and
~ become both committed church members and servants of a world in need
Scripture Union pursues these aims through a variety of specialist ministries around the
world in obedience to our Lord Jesus Christ and in reliance on the Holy Spirit."

So is Tim rejecting the aim's and goals of SU or has the removal of the material from the Qld website a less than subtle attempt to hid their real mission in the face of loosing access to funding?
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 12 August 2011 1:28:23 PM
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Robert

All it achieves is discriminating against non-Christians, whether we be religious or not. Reading articles like Mander's one could be forgiven for thinking that Australia was a theocracy.

The goals of the Christian Church also appear very Orwellian - permitting only certain types of thought, not questioning and demanding acceptance of Christianity and no other religion or philosophy.

And we pay for this through our taxes.
Posted by Ammonite, Friday, 12 August 2011 1:48:23 PM
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Well said shellity, Dug, Seamus and others. :-)

I pity the chaplains. They must be Christian to get the job and then they must deny this to perform it. Chaplains are human and they’ll naturally proselytize, even if they don’t mean to.

All the roles performed by a chaplain can be performed (better) by a secular counsellor.

“Spirituality is not something to be denied or feared.” I agree, and religions do not have a monopoly on spirituality, which need not involve supernatural beings – indeed, it is richer when it doesn’t.

“This ‘one-or-the-other’ approach” is highly relevant because often there isn’t enough money for both a chaplain and another caring professional, making it critical that what money there is, is spent in the way that best meets students’ needs.

The “responding principals” in the 2009 survey were a tiny fraction of those who were surveyed, so the 98% is statistically meaningless.
Posted by Louella, Friday, 12 August 2011 1:55:17 PM
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The chaplains "must be Christian to get the job and then they must deny this to perform it."

Louella, 1:55pm

Good point, as is the point about 'one-or-the-other' in terms of funding.
Posted by McReal, Friday, 12 August 2011 2:23:50 PM
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Apart from the fact that chaplains most certainly are there to proselytise--the fact that Mander denies this adds insult (and sin?) to injury--there is something profoundly wrong about such a programme being instituted by allegedly by-partisan and secular governments. Neither side is anything of the kind, of course. But the incongruity extends to the very notion of an ancient mysticism being foisted on innocents in a modern educational setting. Let's not forget we still have RI too, that is Religious "Instruction", and all the other extras programmes the chaplains bring in via chaplaincy, a Trojan horse.
And then kids have to deal with a large cohort of the teaching profession affected, who also miss no opportunity to impress their antediluvian superstitions on their credulous charges. And this is after the poor little buggers are often already trapped in a mentally stifling home-lives in which their parents inform them vociferously of all manner of ignorance and fire and brimstone.
Our secular state schools ought to be childens' sanctuaries from the ignorant to eccentric to lunatic ravings of affected adults.
Religion has nothing whatever to do with education--indeed it is antithetical to it--except perhaps, in high school and beyond as a specialised curiosity for anthropologists, or as an enduring and cautionary monument to the heights of human folly.
Posted by Squeers, Friday, 12 August 2011 5:28:24 PM
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Tim, if you came out and honestly admitted that the primary aim of the Scripture Union and ACCESS in the School was to proselytise, then at least we would give you credit for being honest. Of course, if you did this, then you wouldn't get your foot in the door, so you are really between a rock and a hard place. That doesn't excuse your dishonesty though.

It doesn't look like you are getting much support from the rest of the OLO community either. I rest my case.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 12 August 2011 5:46:54 PM
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Tim Tim ? Are you reading this Tim ?

There are a whole lot of questions being asked about what you have written

How about doing the decent thing and answering a few of them ?

or do you only listen to people who have the same opinions as you do ?
Posted by Dug, Friday, 12 August 2011 5:51:31 PM
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http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215257

McReal, since when is 17% of the population so significant it should dominate 83% of the population.

There are many lapsed christians out there who do not attend church every sunday, but still came from that cultural heritage, were perhaps taken to "sunday school" by their parents, are happy to see there own children at a school with a non denominational christian chaplain, tick the christian box, on their census form.

What is wrong with that? Do you want to see riots like those in Britain in all our capital cities as our society DE generates.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

Our own society in the land of OZ was way more cohesive, happy, harmomious in the 1950's than it is now. Moral & ethical vacuums or DE generation is hardly a good thing.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215263

RObert, our nation, its founding fathers & our constitution are way more christian than anybody knows or wants to admit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JihQw39hyG0 invetigate it for yourself.

While christian myself i am not too keen on "evangelicals" but i fail to see how they can "turn" your children at school into anything negative.

Are you seriously suggesting that 1 single chaplain out of the entire school workforce is going to succeed in raming a bible down every child's throut, or even just one. if you don't want your children to run the risk of learning morals & ethics then don't pay to send them on a "christian" school camp where heaven forbid some of them might shock horror, sing some hymns instead of "gangsta rap".

Get a grip.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215278

Philo, great comment.

Seriously you ANTI christian types have been brain washed by closet communists doing far worse to your children than any christian ever did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JarRIC4rS1M looking back on the sexual revolution with 20/20 hindsight do you really believe "sex, drugs & rockNroll" is better for your children than some good old fashioned christianity?
Posted by Formersnag, Friday, 12 August 2011 7:52:34 PM
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If I understand you correctly, Formersnag, you are asserting morals and ethics can only be imbued in a child within a Christian framework. This is incorrect.

As you seem to be fond of links, may I suggest one for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbef07aQtB8
Posted by Louella, Friday, 12 August 2011 11:14:03 PM
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Formspring,
I presume your reference to 17% and 83% is a reference to non-Christians and Christians, respectively, in the 2006 census.

The correct figures were 36% and 64%. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia. Of that 36% non-Christian, 18.7% were No religion, 11.2% Not Defined, and 6% Other religion. The world has changed a lot since 2006, so it will be interesting to see what the 2011 census figures will be, due for release in about 12 months.

Regardless, more than 1/3 of Australia are non-Christian, and it is the lack of empathy by the Christians for them that is increasingly significant.

Conflating the UK riots with Australian school chaplaincy seems a very dubious relationship - if you are to claim the UK riots, or any other civil-disorder, is related to lack of Christianity, then perhaps direct reference to morality, and societal rules and norms, might be a better course of action than reference to an as dubious relationship with an unsubstantiated supernatural character, and it's equally unsubstantiated purported representive on earth.
Posted by McReal, Saturday, 13 August 2011 8:44:11 AM
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McReal,

it's also worth pointing out to Formersnag that of the 74%, a great many identify as Christian merely because they were baptised as such (I once did so myself) and not because they follow it, either in faith or practice. The true percentage of devout or practicing Christians in this country is undoubtedly a minority. Institutions generally outlive their minions.
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 13 August 2011 8:53:56 AM
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Louella,
You said "Chaplains are human and they’ll naturally proselytize, even if they don’t mean to".

I say, If a person is passionatly atheist their passion will naturally rub off on unsuspecting children. I knew who were the atheist and who were the Christian teachers in my school years.

When it comes to practical care there is no atheist organisation that can coordinate better than the Christian community. The role is part time ($20,000 p/a)and persons are also supported by the Church community.

You said, "All the roles performed by a chaplain can be performed (better) by a secular counsellor".

Please supply the evidense of this.
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 13 August 2011 9:05:29 AM
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I run a large NFP in youth disadvantage. My staff just get to pick up the referrals from the school chaplains who are not at all qualified to deal with the big issues these kids are facing. It would be far more effective if these funds had been put into skilled staff who are already working with youth in the sector. THis programme is an obscene redirection of sorely needed funds away from a non-judgemental and skilled workforce.
The bulk of our money is spent on wages of highly skilled counsellors with specialist training in adolescent mental health and community development. If chaplains could do this work, I would employ a bunch of chaplains and it would be a deal cheaper I am sure. But it is entirely inappropriate. Also, so many of our clients who need help are outside the school system, with little access to the counselling they need. Again, these funds should have gone to support the NFP sector already working with youth and families both in and out of school, with a professional qualification, scope of practice and non-judgemental framework .It is shameful that a Labor government did not scrap this program and use the funds to boost youth mental health services in the community.
Posted by meljane, Saturday, 13 August 2011 9:37:50 AM
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http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215340

Louella, the reality however is exactly the opposite, given the opportunity closet communists degrade children by indoctinating them with evil propaganda, instead of "decent" morals & ethics from christianity, they fill their heads with filthy lies.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

http://www.henrymakow.com/uns_planned_pedophilia.html

seriously, which do you think is worse? some christianity or closet communist, corporate paedophilia?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215347

McReal, it is a well documented scientifically proven fact that the closet communist, PC, Thought Police have been attacking every foundation of our formerly civil society, so as to destroy it, replace it with an international socialist, Chinese led, UN, NWO.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html

child abuse is child abuse is child abuse, what part of child abuse is evil, don't you understand?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215348

Squeers, correct the RED/green, getup, GAYLP/alp, Socialist Alliance has outlived its usefulness & will soon be dead.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215350

Philo, actually in my experience all roles can be done way worse by a closet communist, secular counselor. Give me a concerned, christian chaplain anyday.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215351

meljane, spoken like a "true believer", closet communist.

Tut tut, how dare you refer to "my clients" this signifies ownership, you must, according to the PC, Thought Police refer to "the people i work with".

Naughty naughty, perhaps you think this is better?

http://www.henrymakow.com/uns_planned_pedophilia.html or this?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236# or this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html

do any of you closet communists have any more lies to tell?
Posted by Formersnag, Saturday, 13 August 2011 11:07:51 AM
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Well, Formersnag, that was a balanced post : )

Is it any wonder the covert injection of Christianity into the secular school system is questioned when we're confronted with rhetoric like that?
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 13 August 2011 11:15:08 AM
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Brilliant article Tim. Perhaps we have to rip God out of our musical world and disregard the wisdom of Sting. "We are spirits in a material world". Perhaps we have to rip God out of our Constitution which says "Humbly relying on the blessings of almighty God," and remove the unashamed proclamation of Australia's faith in a higher power and rewrite our constitution. Perhaps we have to then rip fathers out of families and God out of Schools and watch while our cities burn as they are in England. They will burn because a Godless and fatherless generation have no need for rules and regulations that infringe "their personal rights to murder and mayhem". Only then will we be able to dance for joy with our atheistic elites that make up 10% of our population. For they will surely have achieved their desired result.
Posted by Warwick Marsh, Saturday, 13 August 2011 11:53:38 AM
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Given the large numbers of atheists and non christians living in our society it makes me wonder about comments made by those who are apparently christians here.

Obviously they live in fear and terror of the massed hordes of atheist communist muslim psychopaths who rampage through the streets frothing at the mouth and baying for blood ( Christian blood of course :)

I cannot imagine the mentality of people who can whip themselves into such a frenzy of fear and delusion.

Obviously they do not get out much.

Can I suggest that they undertake a simple exercise to allay these paranoid fears ?

Walk down any street in any city in Australia count the people as they pass, for every 10 people you count 1 will be an atheist.

See if you can spot the raving closet communist murdering psychopath from the other 9 "Good Christians" :-)

News flash guys
Atheists are like the rest of the population, there are good bad and indifferent.

We do not have horns growing out of our heads, we do not have secret agendas for world domination. We have jobs families and lives. The only difference between you and us is we do not believe in a god and some of us are concerned about having the beliefs of others forced onto us.

there is a golden rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

If you do not want to have atheist caring for your kids at schools then pay us the same courtesy Don;t expect us to want to have your believers doing this to our kids. it is about respecting the rights of others.

end of story.
Posted by Dug, Saturday, 13 August 2011 12:17:20 PM
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Tim ? Tim? where are you Tim ?

are you reading this ?

Why not discuss and defend what you have written ?

tim are you there or hiding ?
Posted by Dug, Saturday, 13 August 2011 12:18:36 PM
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http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215360

spot on Warwick.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215359

why thank you Poirot. the communists always seem to conveniently forget that it was "protestant christianity" which invented the seperation of church & state, which was only ever about stopping bishops from being in cabinet, "as of right" without being elected like Rev Fred Nile.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215362

Dug, what you have said is typical of the loony left, a half truth, designed to deceive. Many atheists are happy to be shopping or gardening on sunday morning when christians are in church but there is another kind who do, in fact have horns & a tail. They evangelise the gospel according to Karl Marx & deify the "dear leader" at everybody stupid enough to listen to them & sadly they do indoctrinate many young impressionable teenagers with their filth.

Be honest, tell me which is worse? closet communist indoctrination? or christian morals & ethics?
Posted by Formersnag, Saturday, 13 August 2011 12:33:24 PM
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This thread has become too silly to even consider further subscription to OLO.

Formersnag claims that atheists on Sundays "They evangelise the gospel according to Karl Marx & deify the "dear leader" at everybody stupid enough to listen to them & sadly they do indoctrinate many young impressionable teenagers with their filth."

I know the above will be permitted under tha banner of 'free speech'.

Therefore, I can only point out that hate speech (which is being presented by FS, Warwick Marsh, Philo et al) is not free speech.

The above named are deliberately flaming non-Christians. This is not in the spirit of freedom of speech.

Non-Christians have the right to their children to be taught at state funded schools without indoctrination into any religion, be it Christian, Muslim or Calathumpian. There are religious schools available to those religious adherents.

State schools are for everyone. Australia is not a theocracy. To those Christians who have no tolerance for people with different views to you, I recommend reading Jesus' sermon on the mount and have a good hard look at yourselves.
Posted by Ammonite, Saturday, 13 August 2011 12:49:28 PM
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Formersnag,

Protestant Christianity was also the staff leaned upon by the manufacturers and factory owners at the time of the Industrial Revolution who lured then herded the people into urban conglomerations in the first place....the fact that the system is now threatening total disintegration is merely a continuum.

Once upon a time a man's work had an integral meaning in daily life. Now, not only is the meaning absent - so is the work.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 13 August 2011 12:51:44 PM
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Formersnag,
the Catholics invented corruption and the melding of church and state. And the Protestant Presbyterians were no better after Charlie had his head cut off. The Calvinist Protestants wanted to make separation redundant. It was the Puritans--the then equivalent of left-wing radicals, who tried to insist on a separation of Church and State in England.
All you've got is name calling, mate; names which don't impress anyone capable of thinking outside your reactionary box, and which spare the others, like you, the bother of thinking about it.
The vast majority of the Chaplains, btw, are Pentecostal fundies, as rabid as any of your demonic communists, and far from the benign by-partisan schoolyard presence Mander tries to proffer.
Mander has signally failed to "dispel the myth". I'm as persuaded by his assertion that Chaplains don't proselytise as I am that he and his cohort are not homophobic.
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 13 August 2011 1:14:29 PM
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How!
How do atheists counsel a 10 year old who has just buried his mother from cancer? His father organised a Christian funeral for her assuming there is an after life. The child believes his mother has entered the eternal life. He has problems attending to his normal school work and is falling behind in class.

How does an atheist encourage and give hope to this child?

PLEASE TELL US!
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 13 August 2011 1:21:57 PM
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"Perhaps we have to then rip fathers out of families and God out of Schools and watch while our cities burn as they are in England. They will burn because a Godless and fatherless generation have no need for rules and regulations that infringe "their personal rights to murder and mayhem". Only then will we be able to dance for joy with our atheistic elites that make up 10% of our population. For they will surely have achieved their desired result."
Posted by Warwick Marsh, Saturday, 13 August 2011 11:53:38 AM

Now now, Warwick. No need to froth over such hypotheticals.

At the 2006 census no Religion made up 18.7%, and Not defined 11.2 %, so your 10% seems a little low, especially if the trends have continued into this year's census.
Posted by McReal, Saturday, 13 August 2011 1:33:29 PM
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Philo

Humans have provided succour, comfort and compassion for one another long before Christianity. And we still do.

One does not have to offer a fairy tale to provide hope.

I would like to know how a ten year can accept that a 'loving' god took his mother from him. How do you explain that?
Posted by Ammonite, Saturday, 13 August 2011 1:43:10 PM
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Protestant Christianity beliefs were also the justification for murdering, enslaving and ruining people for personal enrichment and for colonising their homelands.

With their homelands plundered the destitute future generations as British Subjects and members of the commonwealth sought a better life in the UK where the opportunities proved to be just as dismal.

Perhaps the Protestant Christian biblical concept of sowing and reaping does not apply to a Protestant Christian system that privatises profits (good capitalism) while socialising losses (bad communism).
Posted by Neutral, Saturday, 13 August 2011 1:44:33 PM
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Philo quite simple

you tell the child the truth not some made up fairy story

you hug hold comfort and encourage the child you show love care and affection.

you nurture and support.

you do not make up stories about old men in the sky taking his mother away

you say honestly your mother loved you and would do anything to be with you but sometimes people get sick and die. She had no choice she tried to stay here with you but it happened and it is sad terribly sad.

Now we love you and you carry your mother's hopes and dreams with you, you need to live a good life and have children in her memory.

One of the most horrendous things that is often said to grieving children is "God needed your parent more so he took them to heaven" That is just a lie and unspeakably cruel but I have heard it said so often it is an obscenity.

Some Christians can be very cruel and uncaring people.
Posted by Dug, Saturday, 13 August 2011 2:07:18 PM
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Mr Mander,

Asserted truisms, motherhood statements and special pleading aside:

1) What does a chaplain do that a secular pastoral care worker cannot?

2) How is it right and fair that the Commonwealth funds, privileges and promotes discrimination in employment, via the NSCP, on the basis of religion?

The problem is NOT that chaplains are bad people. I have no doubt they are overwhelmingly good people with good intentions.

The problem, in the opinion of one who values authentic freedom of belief in Australia, is that the government has no business using taxpayer funds - and no basis in evidence - to create and prop up programs of an intrinsically and compulsorily religious nature over other alternatives.

The state should not privilege religion, even a majority religion, over those who dissent from it.
Posted by brendan.lloyd, Saturday, 13 August 2011 3:51:35 PM
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http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215365

Ammonite, i have never ever engaged in flaming or trolling as you well know.

i never said ordinary atheists do that on sunday, i said they just go about their lives. i said as you well know that closet communists pretending to be atheists infiltrate our education system so they can indoctrinate their children with PC, Thought Police spinganda.

really very silly using such tactics.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215366

Poirot, rot indeed, as you well know it was the honesty of protestant christians like Elizabeth Fry, during the industrial revolution that led to improvements in pay, conditions along with the "co-operative movement" which was killed off in the land of OZ by Comrades Whitlam, Hawke & Keating in the 1980's.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215367

Squeers, have i ever suggested that every christian who ever lived is perfect? or that every church has been perfect?

Next you will be telling me that every communist in history is a saint. you are the perfect "counter revolutionary" Squeers.

connect the dots, left wing politics was invented as a reactionary, counter revolutionary strategy by your beloved catholic church to stop the "enlightened" protestant christians from democratising the 1st world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Weishaupt

all left wing politics was invented as a self oppression tool. stop the blue collar working classes from co-operating with the white collar middle classes, when will you WAKE UP?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ9myHhpS9s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju3h7yk4Hcg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQkcP0olmQY&feature=related

the loony left spinganda gets more obvious, ridiculous every day.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215373

Neutral, by name but reactionary by nature, which religion did the communist Chinese quote as an excuse to annex Tibet?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215374

Dug, & next you will be telling me the communist counselor never does any prosletising while they are at it.

Would a lesbian or Bisexual woman working in a DV refuge have access to vulnerable women & girls?
Posted by Formersnag, Saturday, 13 August 2011 4:05:40 PM
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Formersnag, you should really see a doctor about those hallucinations..
Posted by brendan.lloyd, Saturday, 13 August 2011 5:02:48 PM
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"...which religion did the communist Chinese quote as an excuse to annex Tibet?"

Now we are getting somewhere Snagglepuss.

Equating communism with Protestant Christian dogma is a good start.

You are leaning grasshopper.

Amen.
Posted by Neutral, Saturday, 13 August 2011 5:29:14 PM
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I agree that we don't need anyone in secular public schools with the job of 'Chaplain'.
Public schools should not have any one religion with a special person in that school just to represent them.
If you want an openly religious person to 'minister' to your kids, then send them to a religious school.

Formersnag <"Be honest, tell me which is worse? closet communist indoctrination? or christian morals & ethics?"

I am wondering why it is that you think someone has to be a communist if they aren't Christian Formersnag?

I was just visiting communist Northern Vietnam (Hanoi) earlier this year, and I honestly never met one Vietnamese person who appeared to me to have questionable ethics or morals.

Are you suggesting we don't have morally corrupt Christians in this world?
Christianity does not have sole rights to morality in our world.

Formersnag <"Ammonite, i have never ever engaged in flaming or trolling as you well know."

Yeah right...
Posted by suzeonline, Saturday, 13 August 2011 6:11:50 PM
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I wouldn't have a problem with chaplains if they were part of a well-rounded team of social workers, counsellors, and psychologists. It is the special place Christian chaplains have managed to acquire, as well as the staunch defending of them.

Rather like the situation in NSW (and other states) with the protection of the special place for SRE/SRI, and the fight (NSW) or refusal (Vic) to allow alternatives for those that seek them.
Posted by McReal, Saturday, 13 August 2011 6:26:31 PM
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When Jesus told his followers to sell their possessions and share everything was that an early form of communism ?

Matthew 19:16-24 (the same event is also described in Mark 10:17-25 and Luke 18:18-25, )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism
Posted by Dug, Saturday, 13 August 2011 6:38:45 PM
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Rot indeed, yerself, Formersnag,

If you're under the impression that all those mill and factory owners who instituted cruel and inhuman work practices upon the newly urbanised population of Britain, and who fought tooth and nail against the Factory Acts, didn't park their oversized derriere's on the front pews of the church every Sunday, you're deluded.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 13 August 2011 9:00:02 PM
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If Tim Mander's chappy army doesn't proselytise, why does he expect them to "operate under" Scripture Union's Aims & Working Principles?

http://apply.su-chaplain.com/index.php?cmd=information
(under 'Essential Info' tab)

"SU QLD Chaplains must agree to and operate under:
•the SU Aims and Working Principles, and
•SU Statement of Beliefs, and/or
•one or more of the creeds of the Christian Church (Apostles’ Creed, Nicene Creed and/or Athanasian Creed)"

http://www.scriptureunion.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=54

"Working with the churches, Scripture Union aims
a. to make God’s Good News known to children, young people and families and
b. to encourage people of all ages to meet God daily through the Bible and prayer."

Scripture Union's main goal is to gain converts, and that's what SU chaplains are required to do. How could any rational person deny it?
Posted by Vance, Saturday, 13 August 2011 9:57:56 PM
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Ammonite,
You said "One does not have to offer a fairy tale to provide hope". The very reason the majority of the population would not let you loose on their 10 old grieving child. You have violated the right of the parent to instruct his child. You have confused the child causing him further anxiety.

In you following sentence you have misrepresented the Creational facts and the nature of God. "I would like to know how a ten year can accept that a 'loving' god took his mother from him".

I will explain later, why.
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 14 August 2011 8:28:53 AM
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Formersnag

You wrote "Our own society in the land of OZ was way more cohesive, happy, harmomious in the 1950's than it is now. Moral & ethical vacuums or DE generation is hardly a good thing."

You obviously didn't live in my house in the 50's. The 50's was hell; both my parents spent a lot of time in mental hospitals because they couldn't cope with the rigid requirements of the society of the time and a chaplain wouldn't have helped. It was 'humanism' that gave them comfort and a way of coping with the hypocricy of an overtly religious and intolerant society.
Posted by Mollydukes, Sunday, 14 August 2011 8:40:29 AM
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Philo,

I don't see why you're confronting atheists with your age-old problem of theodicy. The problem of why an omnipotent and all-loving God allows evil to prosper in the world is something theologians have failed, after hundreds of years of trying, to rationalise.
Four of my children lost their mother to cancer, the oldest being seven at the time, so not quite your ten year old bench-mark. They've never been fed the twaddle you're recommending but they are all extremely well-adjusted and intelligent young people today. My girls wear a piece of their first mum's jewelry on her birthday and we discuss her often as they all become increasingly interested in what she was like.
A well-meaning Christian teacher recently asked the youngest (now 10) where she thought her mother was if she wasn't in heaven, appalled at the implications of atheism--that she's mouldering in the grave!
My kids don't carry such knowledge around as a burden. Indeed we discuss life and death without inhibition or invention, and even such possibilities as life after death. Unlike Christians I profess only my ignorance and my reasoning to my kids, soberly acknowledging probabilities and improbabilities. As soon as notions of Santa Clause et al started to strain credulity, we also discussed those tradition and their probabilities too. Children don't need to be wrapped in fairy tales, and they can draw far more comfort by giving their intellects scope than by pulling down the shutters.
"You have violated the right of the parent to instruct his child. You have confused the child causing him further anxiety"
The parent has no right to "instruct" his child, in my view, only to help her to think for herself.
As for confusion; did you hear the news this morning? It seems a chaplain in a south east Queensland State School has facilitated a Creation scientist's coming to school and telling the kids how dinosaurs and humans co-habited the Earth! In order, putatively, to reconcile biblical accounts with the fossil record, of course.
What about the confusion this gives rise to when the child learns real science?
Posted by Squeers, Sunday, 14 August 2011 9:00:26 AM
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Well said Squeers.

No confusion for my niece and nephew, aged 11 and 13 respectively. They watched as their grandmother (my mother) succumbed to a slow illness earlier this year. They visited her regularly and were informed by both their parents and my mother herself what was happening. There were lots of hugs and even laughs. In her last months, mum actually painted some watercolours. She displayed grace and dignity - something that I see reflected in my cousins now.

When we sat on the pew at her funeral we all linked hands, my sister, brother-in-law, yours truly and my young cousins - it was one of the most moving and significant events of my life. At the end were tears and acceptance. Neither my young cousins are traumatised nor disturbed, nor do they cling to fairytales such as you would have them do.

As for attempting to quote the bible at a non-Christian, you may as well quote the Q'uran, I am not a Muslim either. That is not debate it is nonsense such as school chaplains would preach to my cousins if not for the actions of their parents to ensure that they have a understanding of the universe around them of which religion is but a part of the human world.
Posted by Ammonite, Sunday, 14 August 2011 9:36:41 AM
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Philo,
That Ammonite said on this forum that "One does not have to offer a fairy tale to provide hope" does Not mean he would confuse the child or would cause him further anxiety (not the context - would not vs your "has")

Parents do not have the right to instruct a child in a single view of something that has several reasonable societal views. The mix of information is greater than one version of several views of it.
Posted by McReal, Sunday, 14 August 2011 9:41:37 AM
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Mollydukes: "The 50's was hell"

Had the internet and instant communications been around during the 50's or at any other time since the invention of Protestant Christian dogma it would show that it's hypocrisy would have been greater than it is today.

As evidenced by this discussion, hypocrisy gets exposed swiftly now.

In previous generations it was easier to be a wolf in sheeps clothing.

The christians wail and gnash their teeth about crime and other evils being out of control because of a decline in religious practice when it is this very decline of religious practice that frees people from dogma, intolerance and hypocrisy to report such things.

The current generation is no better nor worse than my generation or my fathers and grandfathers generations. The difference is, it is exposed for the world to see now.

This is why we are seeing an endless flow of christian leadership from all the various christian cults going back decades finally being exposed as child abusers, molestors and rapists.

As we live in a secular democracy, we have the democratic right to freedom from religion.

The sheep has been shorn and it's wolf has nowhere to hide.
Posted by Neutral, Sunday, 14 August 2011 10:30:00 AM
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Squeers, McReal,
You both identify your communist agenda by the following statement. A belief that the State is right and absolute, Parents are not responsible for their childrens education. "The parent has no right to "instruct" his child, in my view, only to help her to think for herself".

In the above case I quoted the Chaplian cannot discuss a religious perspective other than give support to the child's perception. Similarly to deny the child's perception that his mother's spirit is with God because the counsel is given by an atheist she has no afterlife.

I say bring on the High Court Case and the Church schools will increase in enrollments if Chaplains are denied in Public Schools. It is the parents right and responsibility to educate theit children, contrary to the view of the Communists here.
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 14 August 2011 2:54:45 PM
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Religion is a personal choice. It should not be forced onto children and families via Chaplaincy or RI programs.

These Chaplaincy Services are not voluntary, parents are not often asked if they want a religious based counsellor on staff. Why not put this money into improving remedial services to disadvantaged students or increasing counsellors to assist students in need.

I am sure many of the Chaplains are good and kind people wanting to do good in their communities, that is not in issue. It is simply that the premise of support should not come with an indoctrination agenda and we know that this is happening throughout various schools in Australia. Not all Chaplains are guilty of this but how does one police it?

As a parent I do not want anyone pushing their personal beliefs (religious or political) on my kids, neither do I want my kids being told they are sinners and being greatly affected by fear and retribution philosophies as was indicative of my parent's childhoods. Older children may be better equipped to sift through this information and use logic and rational thought processes but very young children take this stuff on board.
Posted by pelican, Sunday, 14 August 2011 3:06:11 PM
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lol Philo! So now all atheists or non-Christians are all communists are they? That's a very out-dated view these days isn't it?

If one does not believe in fairy tales of unseen 'Gods', then one is certainly not going to believe in an afterlife!

If, as you assert, Chaplains are not going to promote religion in the public schools, then why does the Chaplain need to have the Christian teachings that are taught to them in order to become Chaplains?

Why then are Chaplains required in that role in a secular school, rather than a psychologist or Councillor?
Posted by suzeonline, Sunday, 14 August 2011 3:07:12 PM
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>> Positive ethical values such as the Golden Rule of 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' are found in all philosophical traditions, religious and non-religious. This is because positive ethical values are the natural product of human evolution, not derived from any supernatural source. Each generation has a responsiblity to pass on these positive ethical values, and we consider this can be most effectively done by a combination of socialisation in the home and education in schools.
Rights to education

Reason Australia believes every child has the right to be educated to the full extent of their capacities. We therefore oppose any attempt by organisations to limit children's education, or to isolate children within closed communities.

We oppose the indoctrination of children into any particular religious doctrine before they are mature enough to consider alternatives and make up their own minds. We believe children should be taught critical thinking in order to develop the capacity to decide for themselves what philosophical life stance, religious or non-religious, will guide their lives. <<

http://www.reasonaustralia.org/policies/secular-education

The following is a link to the High Court Challenge:

http://www.highcourtchallenge.com/

>> This matter concerns more people than the Williams family from Queensland. It concerns all Australians, of all faiths and none, who support the secular ‘wall of separation’ concept concerning church and state. This ‘wall of separation’ is required to safeguard our multicultural, multi-faith and non-faith liberal democracy that has become the hallmark of the civilised 21st century nation Australia rightfully claims to be. Mr. Williams recently said that since the announcement of his High Court challenge, moral and monetary support from appalled parents and concerned citizens Australia-wide has been as overwhelming as it has been heart-warming. <<
Posted by Ammonite, Sunday, 14 August 2011 3:34:21 PM
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Philo, you have been the only sensible and reasonable protagonist in this thread and I respect your right to practice your religion.

Please don't spoil your form by propagating Formersnag's incoherent 'reds under the bed' paranoia.
Posted by Neutral, Sunday, 14 August 2011 3:47:16 PM
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Philo you have not answered my question about the communist nature of the teachings of Jesus, nor have you explained how many Christians are in fact communists. You seem to think that somehow Communism and Christianity are mutually exclusive when in fact they follow very similar principals that need not be mutually exclusive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

Matthew 19:16-24 (the same event is also described in Mark 10:17-25 and Luke 18:18-25, )
Posted by Dug, Sunday, 14 August 2011 4:10:14 PM
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Philo,
You misrepresent what I said, which was about "instruct[ing] a child in a single view of something that has several reasonable societal views. The mix of information is greater than one version of several views of it."

Not - as you re-wrote - "The parent has no right to "instruct" his child, in my view, only to help her to think for herself".
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 14 August 2011 2:54:45 PM

Reference to a "communist agenda" is so left-field the world has moved on from communism, that extreme extension of doctrinal thinking

I did not espouse "A belief that the State is right and absolute". Multi-media is showing that extremist and Statist views are equally open for discussion.

Parents who "educate their children, contrary to the view of [the society those children will live in]" are doing their children a disservice.
Posted by McReal, Sunday, 14 August 2011 4:14:09 PM
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McReal Sadly I fear Philo must have been scared and scarred by fundamentalist right wing Christians at an early age :-(

he is exhibiting the typical paranoia that believes anyone who does not believe as he or she does must be a filthy evil godless commie bastard bent on world domination.

If you travel through America you will find many such people infected with this paranoia.

They refuse to even entertain the possibility that some decent people may have different ideas.

Theirs is a narrow world that only accepts their beliefs and fears everything and everyone else.

the only cure for this condition is education, sadly most of the sufferers refuse to have anything to do with this treatment.
Posted by Dug, Sunday, 14 August 2011 5:41:59 PM
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McReal,
You sdaid "Parents do not have the right to instruct a child in a single view of something that has several reasonable societal views. The mix of information is greater than one version of several views of it. Posted by McReal, Sunday, 14 August 2011 9:41:37 AM"

The communist USSR murdered children in front of their parents who were taught doctrine contary to State held views
Posted by Philo, Monday, 15 August 2011 8:43:12 AM
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Philo,

What sort of a nebulous statement is that?

It's a common tactic for people with hollow arguments to fall back on hackneyed labels, like communist, Nazi, etc.

Why is a person who doesn't believe in a deity a communist?
And why should a child be instructed as to "what" they should believe? When dealing with faith-based beliefs, surely it's more prudent to introduce the various belief systems and examine them on their historical, cultural and ethical bases...allowing the child to think for themselves resting on a broader learning
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 15 August 2011 8:58:01 AM
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Philo,
you are an offensive and tiny-minded bigot.
I object to "instruction" because there is precious little any of us are in a position to "instruct" our children about, and instruction is not synonymous with education, learning, truth, evidence, edification or ethics. I teach my kids about right and wrong via example and critical thinking, and not via some antiquated superstitious dogma.
You ought to consider a new handle, because you are certainly no philosopher!
Posted by Squeers, Monday, 15 August 2011 9:18:55 AM
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It appears that incoherent McCarthyistic paranoia has Snagged another.

"The communist USSR murdered children in front of their parents who were taught doctrine contary to State held views"

One could also argue that the christian Inquisition burnt at the stake those who taught doctrine contrary to State held views.

Or in the context of this topic, that a threat exists to murder the children of those who oppose the communist practice of State peddled dogma throughout the school system.

Nebulous indeed.
Posted by Neutral, Monday, 15 August 2011 9:33:06 AM
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Last night I listened to ABC 774 on this very topic.

The concerns were about a moral frame work for children to live by and aspire to. In a nutshell, all the guests were Christian and saw the only way for decent moral values to be taught to children was through Christianity - no other religion, no other set of ideologies such as through philosophy or the teaching of basic ethics. As far as many of the Christians interviewed the only way was through "accepting Jesus into their lives".

As a perfectly decent, moral, compassionate NON-Christian this attitude is deeply offensive. However, people like Philo listening to even the relatively mild program of John Cleary's would have had their prejudices confirmed.

I like John Cleary and wished he had challenged a couple of his guests a little more regarding moral values only being accessible through a single source such as Christianity.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/europe/stories/s3288400.htm

If an intelligent man like Cleary cannot be more inclusive (or respectful) of the beliefs of other people, what hope do we have with those like Philo?

We wind up with such fundamentalists calling non-religious, communists and worse. Hardly an example of high moral standing that they like to proclaim for their religion. Completely at odds with the teachings of Jesus, Buddha or other prophets.
Posted by Ammonite, Monday, 15 August 2011 10:07:04 AM
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This McCarthyist idea that if you don’t believe in a deity, then you must necessarily be a communist, came about because the West - America in particular - felt the need to separate themselves from communists in one way or another and so they scratched around and eventually found something…

“We’re not like those evil communists because, um, because, um… oh yeah! Because we believe in god. Yes, yes… that sounds good!”

And thus the unconstitutional requirement for money to be printed with the words, “In God we Trust”.

What a warped reality people must have lived in, in the 50’s when believing in something for which there is no evidence and even in the face of evidence to the contrary, was the only way to prevent one’s self from concluding that therefore the working class must seize political power internationally through a social revolution to expropriate the capitalist classes around the world and place the productive capacities of society into collective ownership.

According to some here anyway.

How anyone can not spot the glaring non sequitur there is beyond me.
Posted by AJ Philips, Monday, 15 August 2011 11:06:15 AM
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Ammonite,
Talk about closed minded. I have never called non-christians communists.

The doctrine that the State is a better life teacher of children than parents, violates the rights of the parent. It espouses the teaching of communist doctrine.

Having had experience with secular counsellors of youth in the street in recent years. While several of us from Church were approached by the local Chamber of Commerce we run a programme for youth on the steet after the Council closed a park to the consumption of alcohol. The youth would congreate in the grand stand and shoot drugs and consume alcohol then go on rampage of destruction of local shops.

We run a programme called the Zone which was a drop in centre for kids wandering the streets on the weekend. It was a games centre with free bbq and drinks and local bands. In the summer we held battle of the bands with the local Mayor presenting the winning band with $200 cash prize.

On several nights we had secular counsellors employed by the Government from a nearby Youth counselling service come in the talk to the teenagers at the Zone. One night they dristributed condoms, their advise was be sure you use condoms when having sex. No restraint relationship advise was given on respect for others bodies. The boys used the condoms alright as water bombs. In fact one older one were heard saying he would not use condoms as his 17 year old girlfriend wanted to get pregnant. On another night their counsell was on the responsible drinking of alcohol where they distributed measures glasses identifying limits - none of the youth took them home. These counsellors from the Youth Centre distributed syringes and pregnancy tests at their drop in Centre.

Supposedly good advise paid for by secular idiology.
Posted by Philo, Monday, 15 August 2011 11:14:52 AM
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Spot the contradiction:

>> Talk about closed minded. I have never called non-christians communists.

The doctrine that the State is a better life teacher of children than parents, violates the rights of the parent. It espouses the teaching of communist doctrine. <<

1. Parents are not prevented from teaching their children their religion or values, never have been. In fact parents are free to home-school if they wish.

2. State education is for everyone, not just Christians. If you believe this is some kind of communist plot - where is your evidence? Public schools have been teaching children for over 200 years. Australia remains a version of democracy allied with capitalism - nowhere near communism.

3. Your anecdote, while interesting does not a summer make. In other words, if condoms were handed out to young people without adequate information, then indeed it was a nonsense. However your single experience does not prove that condoms are routinely handed out without corresponding education.

For example:

http://www.fpv.org.au/teaching-resources/

I would posit that it is religious fundamentalist who are less likely to educate the correct use of condoms, the prevention of STD's, pregnancy and so on than the government Youth Counsellors.
Posted by Ammonite, Monday, 15 August 2011 11:29:00 AM
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I liked the second last paragraph of your last post, Philo. It’s a good example of why the rate of abortions and teen pregnancies tend to increase with the more religious a society is.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
Posted by AJ Philips, Monday, 15 August 2011 11:55:15 AM
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AJ Philips,
These children were not in any way religious or from Church families. They were neglected street kids! Your analogy is non existent.
Posted by Philo, Monday, 15 August 2011 12:46:07 PM
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Philo,

"...I never called non-Christians communists."

Squeers and McReal both identified themselves as not supporting chaplains or Christian proselytising in secular schools. I trust you judged accordingly that they are not Christians. You then went on to say that they had both identified "their communist agenda" by quoting a statement concerning the instruction of children....or are you of the opinion that stating someone has a communist agenda differs from actually calling them a communist?
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 15 August 2011 1:22:22 PM
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Philo,

Whether these children were neglected street kids or from church families is entirely irrelevant; there’s nothing about these kinds of studies - all showing the same correlation between societal health and religiosity - that refer specifically to religious families alone; more the society they live in on the whole.

So my point still stands.

The real juicy bit of irony here, though, is that the incidences of homelessness tend to decrease as religiosity decreases too.

P.S. I forgot to mention the incidences of STD’s in relation to the religiosity of a society. That shows a healthy correlation as well.
Posted by AJ Philips, Monday, 15 August 2011 1:43:33 PM
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Philo,

Did you expect that the secular youth workers would give the street kids a talk about ethics and morals and do you think this would have changed their attitude?

Street kids have many problems and few strengths, and they don't trust people: they do not respond to lectures on stuff like responsible birth control.

The secular youth workers should have known - from their psychological training rather than just having faith that Jesus heals all - that to stand up in front of these kids and act like an authority figure would have destroyed any chance for establishing a relationship later, in which they could have some influence on the wayward youth.
Posted by Mollydukes, Monday, 15 August 2011 4:49:07 PM
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Mollydukes,
As well meaning as you are the youth leaders who spoke were secular trained Government employees. We from the Church opened doors for the kids off the street to just come and relax and play some games - snooker, table tennis, darts etc and just chill out with a snag and soft drink. No lectures from us; just endeavoring to be a friend. Secular counselors were just feeding their unsociable habits, promiscuous sex, drugs etc without real answers to life that give encouragement in a wholesome direction.
Posted by Philo, Monday, 15 August 2011 5:14:39 PM
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Philo

My youngest son is a secular youth worker. He works for a church based organisation and is very happy with his employers and their policies so I am not anti-christian at all.

I am anti your conviction that religion is the solution to all social problems. Street kids tend to have a well developed hypocrisy detection system and the fact that christians do not behave like Jesus is a fundamental problem that you christians don't ever address adequately with them.

You say that all you wanted was to be friends with them but that is not the way the kids would have seen it. They tend to see your largesse as a bribe with an ulterior motive.

I know how this feels. When my second son died, the Uniting Church in the small town we lived in offered their beautiful church to us for the funeral. They were wonderful and I appreciated it so much.

But, in the weeks afterward, the church ladies kept coming to my house and trying to 'convert' me. At the time, consumed by grief, that's how I saw it. I saw later that they were only trying to help in the only way they knew but it wasn't helpful.

I felt threatened and was angry that they were taking advantage of my emotional state to 'foist' their solution onto me. It was an added problem for me to be kind and nice to them when I was so distressed, and it was difficult for me to refrain from telling them how problematic and inadequate I found their solution.

I didn't need any help. I was doing a PhD in psychology at the time and had so much 'real' help from my friends and colleagues who were 'real' psychologists.

We have all come to terms with the loss without any need for Jesus.
Posted by Mollydukes, Tuesday, 16 August 2011 9:44:49 AM
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Mollydukes,
I am sorry to hear of the death of your son. It was dissapointing that ladies tried to take advantage of your grief. Grieving people need a sincere friend not a lecture.
Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 16 August 2011 1:47:30 PM
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And that Philo is why we need untrained or under trained religious zealots out of our schools.

Our children do not need well meaning well intentioned but unskilled people having close contact with them when they are at their most vulnerable .

When our daughter died my wife was told by a chaplain "Your daughter died because you did not pray enough or believe in Jesus"

On several occasions I have heard well meaning Christians say to young children "God needed your parent in heaven" This is just an example of the well meaning but cruel heartless and ignorant stuff that is spread by religions when people need help the most.

Get religions out of our state schools and stop needing to say sorry for what they do.
Posted by Dug, Tuesday, 16 August 2011 5:22:14 PM
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Thanks, Tim, for a well balanced and instructive piece. Though succinct, it is thorough enough to outshine the whining and moaning heard from the atheists here.

Just think how much whinging we’ll hear if they happen to lose this one in the High Court.
Posted by Dan S de Merengue, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 7:09:22 AM
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Dan S de Merengue:"Just think how much whinging we’ll hear if they happen to lose this one in the High Court."

I'm sure there would be "expedientially" more from the proselytes if they were to happen to fail to make their case.

It might even increase "expodentially"...
Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 7:17:58 AM
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Yes, Antiseptic,
I find it greatly expedient that this case has been expedited before us. I love a good courtroom drama.
Posted by Dan S de Merengue, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 8:32:15 AM
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There would be as much moaning and whining from the pro-proselytisers should Atheist Chaplains be allowed into schools and given carte blanche to preach an agenda.

What is the difference for goodness sake? Some reason and ratinality has to apply at some time in this debate.

Who has the right to push a self-interested agenda onto children no matter how good intentioned they think they are.

That is the bottom line. It is not about anti-religion as some of those with strong agendas continue to whip up this anti-secular hysteria.

It is not unreasonable to keep religion separate from the State, indeed it was a religious movement that pushed those freedoms. The interests of Christians or any other religious group are best served by their church and executive councils. There are all manner of Bible classes, chaplaincy and counselling services available via the relevant Church body.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 9:00:53 AM
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Dear Pelican

OLO is becoming increasingly fraught for those of a progressive nature, with the predominance of neo-conservative articles pimping for religion, laissez-faire capitalism and complete abrogation of responsibility for one's behaviour in composing contributions - unless you bat for the 'wrong' team of course.

Where is Susan Prior?

Just wanted to point out that Atheist Chaplains - oxymoron, much. Like atheism being a religion. Oh, don't get me started...

Time to take a look at what Christians (and its only Christians) want to indoctrinate to the kiddies.

http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector#p/u/4/zOfjkl-3SNE

If it makes no sense, eliminates an inquiring mind, has different rules for some being more 'equal' than others, chances are it is either religion or some form of totalitarianism be it fascist, communist or capitalist.
Posted by Ammonite, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 9:11:14 AM
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Philo

No need to apologise for the ladies. You miss the point. The ladies were lovely ladies doing their christian duty. The problem is that this assumption is arrogant and disrespects me as a competent person. They assumed that because I was athiest, I needed comfort and they could provide it.

For me there is no problem when Christians keep their faith a private affair and don't feel the need to help me, we could live together, christian and athiest, we could support each other as they do at the christian organisation where my son works. There, a person's religion is a personal choice, and the work practices are based on scientific knowledge and understanding of the human mind.

Of course scientific knowledge is not complete; we have much to learn about how human nature develops. However, surely it is clear, after 2000 years, that what Jesus and his church have to offer is not the answer. But I expect that Jesus is and will continue to be part of the answer for some people.

Perhaps it is brain chemistry that means you can, and I can't, accept the logical inconsistencies in your theory of God.
Posted by Mollydukes, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 11:05:31 AM
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So where to now?

In my view the "myth" which Tim restated has been fairly well dispelled for everyone except those determined to have chaplains in the schools regardless of how many lies have to be told to keep them there.

As far as I can tell none of the pro-chaplain group have attempted to explain the obvious contradictions between the previously stated goal and passion of SU and the current spin put out by those trying to retain a presence in state schools at the taxpayers expense. Rather the focus has been on announcing the benefits of such a presence (an passion for truth apparently not being one of them) or attacking all those horrid secularists(commo, etc).

Any of the christain supporters of Chaplaincy prepared to respect your god of truth enough to admit that SU and others have for a long time promoted their work chaplaincy work as an outreach program to unchurched children with the goal of winning them for Christ or is that truth a little too inconvenient?

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 12:10:51 PM
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Sums it up nicely R0bert.

The communist slur in particular is a good one, given that a State peddling dogma could be accused of communism.

While defending the right of people to practice their religion in accordance with the law and in their own space is fair and reasonable, it is also fair and reasonable to defend the right to freedom from religion.

Defending open hypocrisy only fools the duplicitous.
Posted by Neutral, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 12:34:11 PM
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Robert,
SU have several roles their primary role is religious education. Chaplains is just one, different to RE teachers. However the Chaplains in our Church have no association with SU.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 12:54:48 PM
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Philo I don't know your church nor have any history of the claims made about the role of chaplaincy by those doing it within your church.

The article being discussed here is by the Tim Mander CEO SU Qld
"Welcome to SU QLD... We're the largest employer of school chaplains in Australia." http://www.suqld.org.au/home/

I and others have presented a good case that SU Qld does seek to use Chaplaincy as a route to feed kids into programs with an aim of "bringing them to Christ". That's based on material previously on SU Qld's website and in some cases previous history with Chaplaincy programs.

SU Qld's web site has had a recent clean up which has removed some of the more compelling evidence however there are enough records around to limit the effectiveness of that.

I was a long time ago a financial sponsor of school chaplians and it was made really clear at that time that one of the main aim's of the chaplaincy work was as a feed to evangalistic youth programs and local churches with a goal of converting them. SU's website until recently had very similar claims on it.

I've no doubt that some chaplains act in good faith, that some possibly do good work with some kid's. That does not in any way diminish the concerns about having largely untrained chaplians with a particular religious bent having access to children in public schools nor about having taxpayer money used to fund those chaplians.

For the record can you see the discrepancy between what Tim Mander claims here and what you know of SU's overall mission (taking into account Jesus words about letting your yes be yes and no be no)?

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 1:47:43 PM
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The Tasmanian branch of the ALP recently passed a motion at its state conference to replace school chaplains with secular counsellors.

Wonderful news!
Posted by Louella, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 4:17:14 PM
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Louella,
NSW schools already have school counsellors. My sister was one during her teaching career in High Schools. They deal with the childs learning abilities, not their emotional and spiritual needs.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 4:28:35 PM
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Louella, it will be interesting to see if Tasmania descends into the riots and debauchery predicted :-)

Philo Sounds like your sister did not know her job very well A secular counselor is there to care for children who have educational or emotional problems.

If children have a spiritual problem there are many churches in the community that can help.

State schools are not places for religion, in the same way churches are not places for science or education.
Posted by Dug, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 5:56:33 PM
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The NSCP is a gigantic waste of money. It maligns minority religions, denominations, and non-believers by ensuring only the most prevalent religious beliefs get a representative chaplain. Every effort to hire a suitable (religious) person must be exhausted before the schools can consider better qualified people who do not profess the "correct" religious belief.

Then, once obtaining the position, chaplains are barred from acting religious. Given they have been hired on the basis of their religion (against section 116 of the constitution) rather than their qualification, what exactly are they supposed to do?

No wonder Tim Mander says their mantra is "refer, refer, refer, and when in doubt, refer". Religious people may not be have the necessary skills to help troubled children, or recognise the signs indicating professional help is required.

The program in its current state is discriminatory, divisive, and dangerous - it must be scrapped immediately.

Please join our "Stop the NSCP" Facebook group. http://www.facebook.com//groups/stopnscp
Posted by askegg, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 7:23:43 PM
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askegg,
Before attacking school chaplins, talk to all Principals and all teachers where they are employed and get their opinion.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 7:56:20 PM
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Philo before defending school chaplains talk to the children and parents who have valid problems with how they are behaving in our schools.

The Victorian Teachers Union supports the removal of state school chaplains and the redirection of funding into secular support for students.

is that enough to convince you or are unions all commies ?
Posted by Dug, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 8:03:01 PM
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At my kids' state school, sadly, the principle and most of the teachers she hires are Christians--so they love the chapies!
The deputy principle is not a Christian, and is a friend of mine; he's disgusted with the Christian infiltration that's extended via chaplency.
The same person has told me that he's had to caution the chaplain for using fire and brimstone tactics on recalcitrants.
So much for no proselytising.
There would be far more damning anecdotes associated with chaplaincy if a) Christians were not so over-represented in our state schools, and b) if they were more apt to speak up. Teaching is a conservative profession in general and schools are highly politically charged, both among the teachers and hierarchy and the parents.
Teachers thus prudently tend to keep quiet generally, more's the pitty.
Posted by Squeers, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 8:09:49 PM
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Dug,
The Teachers union on this matter does not represent all teachers only it's vocal anti-religious members. Keep up the attitude against the Chaplins and witness the flocking into private and religious schools. Because these teachers in the State schools are promoting a religious view, and their salaries are paid for by the State. They are taking a religious stand funded by the Government i.e no religion in State Schools.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 8:14:30 PM
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Philo can you calm down and change your previous comment so it actually makes some sense please ?

Teachers Unions by their very name represent the teachers who have joined together
, They are the united voice of the majority of school teachers.

All members have the right to vote on any decision made by the union. The vast majority want chaplains OUT of state schools>

When an independent and secret survey of teachers and principals was proposed to gauge support or otherwise of school chaplains it was opposed by the 2 major providers of chaplains Scripture Union and Access Ministries, one could only assume the reason they opposed such a survey was they knew the outcome would be the majority of teachers and principals while they may employ chaplains would far prefer trained profesionals who can take over this role.

http://www.aeuvic.asn.au/972896.html

Try to step aside from your religious bigotry and see what is actually the truth of the issue. Our kids need profesionals to care for them in schools, the chaplains program while it may be well intentioned is taking money that could be better spent.

Do you support government waste or efficient use of scarce resources
Posted by Dug, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 9:51:03 PM
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I've voiced my opinion on this matter before, but will offer it again. Note, of course, that it is only an opinion.

I have a problem with chaplains in state schools for a number of reasons. I'd never considered it until I was a teacher in a state high school with a chaplain. Note also that I'm not against religion in schools, which is part of why I now work in a Catholic school, where parents have CHOSEN to have their kids educated within a religious institution.

A few things I have considered over the years:

1) The school chaplains I worked with in my time with Education Queensland were, without exception, from 'small' denominations. Assuming that the bulk of Australian Christians are Catholic, Anglican or Uniting, as census data suggests, the views promoted by the chaplains tend to differ from the Christianity endorsed by these kids' parents.

2) One of the reasons that Catholic, Anglican and Uniting chaplains are rarely engaged may be that these three organisations tend to establish their own schools. It is far more likely that a Catholic chaplain would be engaged by a Catholic school, for obvious reasons. And the parents who send their kids to these schools are at least aware of the sort of chaplaincy that will be on offer. It seems to me that, if they wish to 'infiltrate' the education system, these other denominations should invest the capital in schools of their own. If they are not supported by parents, then that gives some indication of the extent to which parents truly support their chaplaincy in secular schools.

(To be continued ...)
Posted by Otokonoko, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 10:02:20 PM
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(... continued)

3) Even among those who claim to be Christian, the vast majority of Australians appear to do so only as a matter of course. They do not take their children to church, they do not necessarily believe in God or in the teachings of the Christian churches. Why, then, must their children be subjected to such teachings at school? It always made me shudder when our chaplains led prayers on school assemblies, for two reasons: their style of prayer jarred with me, a Catholic; and I felt bad for those children who were expected to bow their heads and engage in an insincere act, praying to a god they don't believe in.

4) The service offered by chaplains could be summed up as a mere 'presence'. Kids who don't like their teachers can book appointments to go to the chaplains because they're 'stressed' or 'anxious', rather than engaging in any learning. The chaplains mean well but, with no formal training as educators or counsellors, can offer little more than a listening ear and a few passages from the Gospels to make kids feel better. In the same school, we had a police officer, a nurse, several guidance counsellors and a trained youth worker who could offer the same services without a religious slant.

Without exception, the chaplains were great people. They cared about kids, wanted to enrich their lives and aimed to make a real difference. Religion had made a difference in their lives, so they saw religion as the ‘catalyst of change’ that would make a difference in the kids’ lives. Unfortunately, they seemed to be blind to the fact that other ‘catalysts’ were available to the kids and, in many situations, were probably more appropriate. A pregnant 14 year-old doesn’t need a chaplain: she needs a nurse, a police officer, a youth worker and – above all else – a parent or two. Strangely enough, even the religious schools I have attended or worked at realise that.
Posted by Otokonoko, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 10:03:00 PM
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Dug,
I’d agree that Philo’s last comment was a little hard to follow. But I agree with what he says about teacher unions. Union heads are political animals with political aspirations. Their pronouncements don’t always reflect the wishes of the profession as a whole, or even that of their member constituency. (I say this as someone who was at one time a member of a teacher union, and would happily be so again in similar circumstances.)

Most teacher members (imo) share a broad spectrum of philosophical ideas and have more pressing concerns than entertaining a spiritual witch hunt.
Posted by Dan S de Merengue, Thursday, 18 August 2011 4:00:01 AM
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Otokonoko,

I appreciate your very fair-minded comments.
As Ron Williams has said in the media, it comes down to the proper separation of church and secular state.
Religious instruction programmes should also be abandoned in State schools, though I for one acknowledge that there is a void to fill in terms of the State implicitly promoting only the mundane and vacuous elements of materialistic human life. We are idealistic beings and ethics and philosophy more broadly (including political philosophy) should be part of our education system, and in a similar spirit as the Ancient Greek idea of Paideia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paideia
I would beg to differ with comments above to the effect that: <Parents who "educate their children, contrary to the view of [the society those children will live in]" are doing their children a disservice>
On the contrary, Society is not solid state or "necessarily" good and right, and children should be educated to think critically and constructively about all elements of their culture. How anyone can assert that our society is beyond criticism, or cannot or should not be drastically improved and altered, is beyond me.
Terrorism and intolerance are in large part the product of just such conservative and rigid mindsets, incapable of reflexivity and self-criticism.
Posted by Squeers, Thursday, 18 August 2011 6:50:04 AM
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Squeers

I agree with you about the lack of moral direction provided by the state and it seems to me that this is the result of the lack of any explicit ethical direction as a basis for capitalism, rather than socialism. Socialism is anti-religious but not anti-family and the implicit value in socialism is that we should share with others not rip them off for our own benefit.

It is so disapointing that churches and their counsellors provide only lip service support for the values that Jesus espoused. I don't see any Christians objecting to the 'temples of the money changers', and places like Hillsong appear to be in favour of the capitalist idea that anything that can be sold for a profit should be sold for a profit.

The problem I see with chaplains in schools is that they do not accept that their 'faith-based' help can be problematic and even damaging for some children. Whereas psychological approaches understand that some types of intervention can be counter-productive. As with doctors, psychologists do aim to "first, do no harm".

I don't worry that chaplains will have much success in converting non-christian kids to their way of thinking. Chaplains weren't in schools when my kids were there, but 'religious instructors' were and my kids choose to go to the religious classes, rather than the free-period that was offered as an alternative, just to get the chocolates and lollies that the 'instructors' handed out and to argue with the 'instructor'.

I do worry that there will be chaplains who will tell vulnerable kids that they will go to hell if they read books like 'Harry Potter'.
Posted by Mollydukes, Thursday, 18 August 2011 8:46:43 AM
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Squeers, there is a great deal of "moral" instruction offered to children in State education, at least here in Qld, anyway. It is offered in the form of specific instructions and injunctions rather than by providing a general philosophical background and a critical capacity.

It seems to me that most children depend on authority being handed down to keep them headed in the right direction. They're not capable of working it out for themselves yet. My own kids are 13 and 15 and they're only just starting to "get" a lot of the stuff I've been tryng to impart to them throughout their lives. they're both very good at thinking critically, but they lack the knowledge or experience to do so very usefully for anything complex.

I don't really want the SU people to be given carte blanche to provide their own view willy-nilly. It's hard enough for them to understand some of the worst effects of their mother's neurotic behaviour without adding another layer of unreality. Why make their job harder than it needs to be?

Give them a basic education and good guidance on behaviour at school and leave the rest to parents.
Posted by Antiseptic, Thursday, 18 August 2011 9:05:59 AM
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Ammonite
'Atheist Chaplain' is an oxymoron but such a configuration (if possible) would drive the pro-Chaplain lobby into apoplexy despite assurances that the purpose is purely support and counselling.

It still beggars belief that we are having these discussions in a civislised society. Countries that embrace secularism are more democratic and egalitarian than where there is a fundamentalist society where separation between Church and State is poor and people are forced to conform or face the consequences. While we are not at this stage in our society, the ACL is fond of using the phrase 'slippery slope' but are blind to where this sort of dogma can lead at its worst manifestation.

John Howard and the later ALP PM's have a lot to answer for. Having seen so much waste in the APS I can think of many more worthy projects this money could be allocated. Given there are to be cuts to funding surely this program warrants a second look.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 18 August 2011 10:20:40 AM
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Antiseptic

Perhaps you'd be interested in this excerp from a Radio National program - or not. American philosopher and psychologist Alison Gopnik says that "literally from the time they're born, infants have capacities to empathise with the emotions and internal states of other people, and by the time they're 18 months old, perhaps even a bit younger, children show signs of altruism. So that they'll actively act to help another person achieve their ends or achieve their goals."

There is such a lot to learn about how children develop and to believe that what was done in the past, that worked for you, is enough for everyone is just plain silly. Get over your yearning for the past, and learn some new stuff.

Read more or listen at http://www.abc.net.au/rn/philosopherszone/stories/2011/3290167.htm
Posted by Mollydukes, Thursday, 18 August 2011 11:56:04 AM
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