"We must realise that God is personal but is not a person, that we are not saved by belief in an idol of our own construction."

God is certainly personal if one subscribes to the idea of a 'God' within rather than without.

Isn't God an 'idol of our own construction' regardless of intent? The fact that faith relies on lack of evidence more than hints at a human construction open to many interpretations. God means many different things to many different Christians hence the myriad of different Churches all with a variable human interpretation of God - all human constructs.

Much of this article is about semantics and discussions about verbs and nouns but adding a faux sophistication does not work in blurring the history and fundamentals of the religious experience.

I do agree with Sellick's comment about the poor quality of the debate on Q&A and (his words) the 'flaccid' comments by the biblical scholar which were nothing more than thinly veiled self-congratulations and the oft found 'I am right and you are wrong' attitudes of many who are deeply committed to their faith. The comment about looking to one's beliefs to 'see the person' was one such furphy. Don't we all know by now it is actions and behaviour that reflect our values not our words. "Looking to what one believes" is useless without corresponding action.

Eva Cox was the stand out, even John Safron was more insightful while holding up the mirror to extremism and intolerance on all 'sides' of the discussion.

My interpretation of the article is Peter Sellick appears to be selling the idea of Atheist Christians as a response or even a retaliation against other Christians with whom he (or one) would disagree

Dear Jon,

"D: If God cannot be described positively, God does not exist"

No need for counterexamples - isn't this exactly the main point of the article, so beautifully written?

Once it is established that God does not exist, only then does faith can finally enter. Only then can the Christian martyrs and saints be seen as truly spiritual and selfless rather than a bunch of traders, bargaining away with a material god for material benefits hereafter. I would hope that at least some of them experienced God directly, then they would have no need to rely on logic, feeble or otherwise.

"If this is what Christianity has come to in the year of our lord 2011, then the quicker it puts itself out of its misery the better."

It is indeed time to put Christianity out of its misery, to take it out of the dark middle ages, to shake off the dust and renew it by the Holy Spirit. It is time to end the lingering traces of the false, primitive, man-made Jewish god, fashioned in the image of man. It is time to redeem our image of God from the blemish of existence. It is time to complete that transformation which Jesus started but had no time to complete, from the worship of a material human-like god, bargaining, capricious, chauvinist and nationalistic, to the worship of God, which none can describe, but which by His grace we can experience directly.

Dear Pelican,

"God is certainly personal if one subscribes to the idea of a 'God' within rather than without."

One's idea of God has no impact on the reality of God. God Himself is not limited by notions of "within" or "without".

God Himself does not mean anything. It is us, humans, who harbour different ideas about God in our minds and attach different meanings to those ideas. Surely our feeble mind-stuff has no impact on Reality.

"Once it is established that God does not exist, only then does faith can finally enter. Only then can the Christian martyrs and saints be seen as truly spiritual and selfless rather than a bunch of traders, bargaining away with a material god for material benefits hereafter. I would hope that at least some of them experienced God directly, then they would have no need to rely on logic, feeble or otherwise."

Now explain how you can experience something that doesn't exist. On second thoughts, don't bother. This is just all too silly.

Peter, thanks for the article -- a good one.

Yuyutsu, you and I seem to be very close in our understanding. My article "God does not exist: God insists" is pertinent.
[http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11008&page=0]

Sorry I can't continue in the discussion for a few days due to business commitments.

""many of the stories are playful,
the book of Jonah especially.""

jonah is an allagory of the lowest hell
and the power of prayer,..and of freewill

""This gives us an insight
into how we could interpret a sentence like
"God raised Jesus from the dead."""

the difficulty in percieving the purpose of the stories
is made simply..by observing the events in their spiritual importances

[ie jesus in his material flesh died
his spirit was resercted...much like he told a thief hanging besides him..'that this 'day' he too would be in 'heaven'

the heaven for a thief
is much different from the heaven of the messiah
[but as jesus says..'mine fathers house has many rooms'
[ie many 'heavens'..[where there..more shall be given]

""It is not meant literally,""

but..IT IS MEANT SPIRITUALLY

""it is figurative""

so people can take what heppens
as a result of this 'other' happening
sequance/consequance

that what..in the main..can and will happen..
even if only spiritually

""but points to a real event.""
even if not 'real'...materially speaking

'"It includes but is not emptied
by the subjectivity of the first believers.""

but can also be looked at objectivly
assuring a sequence of consequences

""It is unexpected and is not the work of men.""

it was formed ultimatly to give comfort
not enshrine un-comfort

""But its proclamation opens the door to faith and freedom.""

no it is about specific work/act
bearing specific fruit/action

""The one we killed has been vindicated.""

we didnt kill him
nothing others do
can vindicate..what we chose to do
no guilt or blame or shame..if the deed wernt done by you
[unless its a good you intended..but never 'got arround..to do']

""Our evil actions have been subverted to the good.""

who judges evil
may be judging good as evil
or judge evil as good..what the better good
or worse evil...judging*

thou shalt not judge

""Our lies have produced a truth
that illuminates the whole world.""

thats how mass murders rant on

no good comes from a bad thing
because of the judgment being the worse bad

[that being said...evil
allows the doing of bigger good
but better is the good that comes from desire
to schieve the good for a greater good..than one good god

""The resurrection signifies
the overturning of the powers of the world..
that keep us in bondage,..the defeat of death as having the last word,""

ie be born again
in the spirit realm

""a sign of the fulfilment of his-story to come.""

ahhh men

""All these things and more
rely on us dethroning the God..that we have made in our own image""

agree

""and being open to the events in history
that bring..the real meaning of creation,""

""it has nothing to do with cosmology
or the big bang""[ie materialism]

but the revelation...of a new people,
the suns and daughters of Good...of the god of light