yuyutsu..quote...""I am so sorry that this sounds sarcastic,
but I am indeed sarcastic about the possibility of existence of that supernatural world.""

we are energy
that animates flesh

[science law reads..energy cant be created nor destroyed]
thus our essential energy...[our spirit]
goes to that other place where energy [that cant be destroyed]..goes

where our spirit resides in our soul [body]
there is the supra world...[as natural and as pure as can be
[once the dross is sorted from the goats and sheep
and the tares from the wheat[etc]

""In that case, I would like to know:
* Besides God, who/what else is in that supernatural realm?""

every energy 'form' that ever was living energy
[even the realms of that we vividly*..imagined as 'real'
dream time land/heaven and hell...and everything in between

[except of course there is no 'hell''..
only the right person..in the wrong place

[ie tares where only wheat can be..
or sheep where only goats can 'be'}

""Is the supernatural subject to time?"'

no there is only non stop living
''more shall be given''

there are those still linked to this realm
that have a grasp on the cobncept of time
but basiclly..the life hereafter is non stop
eternity doing that we wish to be doing

one 'day'[as we measure our stay here
is like an eternity..of timeless monents..for the 'departed'
[a fate NONE can avoid]

""Is the supernatural realm enclosed in space?""

they use different concepts..space is a vairiable
like the perception of time

yet each has all the space they need
[think of like how many angels..on the head of a pin]

they all could fit on the point
[think of just 'pre the big bang']

''Can supernatural objects interact with each other?''

utterly and completly
even flowers have songs stories/teachings
we can talk with the animals..not just 'talk to them'

we interact as easy
as cordial mixed with water
and 'the other' dimentions..just the same

""Can the supernatural interact with the other realms""

yes
much is dependant on like[the same]..mind
if we think evil..evil is allowed entry
but till we think them past our minds protections
they are excluded completly..[but ione single hatefull cruel/lustful thought..and the4y can get into our minds and even force weaker beings to do as they 'both'..will to do

those who think only of love grace mercy
are as safe as babies in the arms of god
[but chose to walk the dark side..they own you
first small vile..then bigger..as we lean into the dark abis
of our own choice]

""if so,would it not be affected by them?""

have you never heard a song writer say
'the song wrote itself'...[good and bad can be input[inspired]
inventions meld..and in a flash like minds have be-gotten..the new idea

but we need to link thinking first
to mind meld...enough to exchange imagry

[till we see it...who would have thunk it..

well
great minds...

*think 'alike*'
thinking on a math problem
en-joines and attracts 'like minds'

we are never alone
[eg just in/on our bodies
are untold billions of living things]
but mostly we learned to ignore them..but give a think on them now

feel itchy?

best to learn thought moderation here now
[ie the gift learned from fasting..that is about focuing the mind]

Dear YuYutsu,

You are asking about what I believe. Perhaps I should have mentioned that I am a Catholic, and - to use Anselm’s dictum - my faith is seeking understanding, in particular of God, which might or might not be congruent with your understanding of God (no “concept” if that irritates you). Although, as I said before, God AS SUCH is ineffable (even more so than the physical world AS SUCH) so we can talk only about concepts of God, or models (of course not mathematical as in case of physics), as I prefer to say.

Nevertheless, let me try to react briefly, since you cannot expect me to write down a sort of personal systematic theology (capitals to distinghuish from your text, no shouting):

* God exists. YES.
* God is not part of ("does not live in") any of the 3 worlds - physical, mental and mathematical. YES.
* There is a fourth world, the supernatural, in which God lives. --- YES FOR THE FIRST PART, NOT NECESSARILY FOR THE SECOND, BUT IF YOU CAN ACCEPT ONLY YES OR NO, THEN YES (I CANNOT EXPLAIN IT BETTER THAN I DID BEFORE).

* Besides God, who/what else is in that supernatural realm? YOU WANT ME TO REPRODUCE HERE THE CREDO?
* Is the supernatural subject to time? “NOT SUBJECT TO”; THE RELATION IS MORE COMPLICATED, SEE THE QUOTE IN http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9423#150700
* Is the supernatural realm enclosed in space? NO
* Can supernatural objects interact with each other? WHAT ARE SUPERNATURAL OBJECTS?
* Can the supernatural interact with the other realms - if so, would it not be affected by them? A COMPLICATED PROBLEM THAT MANY PAPERS ON THE RELATION BETWEEN PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE AND RELIGION/THEOLOGY ARE DEDICATED TO; SEE ALSO THE ABOVE LINK.

>>God is meant to be loved, worshiped and experienced directly<<
We have come full circle. How can you love and worship somebody who does not exist?

Thank you for helping me to find “understanding for my faith” but I think we have exhausted the theme since we seem to be just repeating ourselves.

Dear George,

"How can you love and worship somebody who does not exist?"

Existence is a secular term. Not only is it an illusion, but also a hindrance on the spiritual path. In my scientifically-induced youth I believed that God needed to exist in order for me to love and worship Him. Later on, however, I discovered that this is quite unnecessary, that my attitude towards God depends only on myself, that I don't need to place secular conditions and qualifications on Him before I can express my love and gratitude to Him. I discovered that "It is good to give thanks to the Lord" is unconditional.

The world's foremost philosopher - Ecclesiastes, reached the same conclusion: "My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man". If that be followed, then what else is there to ask for?

The last thing on earth that I wish to do here is to undermine your faith. I am worried however, that in this day and age, this delicate flower is under fierce attack by the atheists surrounding us who prey on theological weaknesses. I am afraid that they hold an advantage in their home-court and it is my honest belief that ANY understanding of God which includes His existence, which attempts to place Him in ANY realm(s) whatsoever, can be easily crushed down by an above-average atheist. I am concerned that you fail to guard your flank. Remember that the strength of a Christian is not in theory, but in the Holy Spirit.

I am not a Christian myself, but I have a Catholic friend, a leader in his church, who can explain the deeper meanings of the Credo without resorting to existence. Perhaps I should ask him to write a commentary here from a Catholic, non-materialistic perspective.

Dear OUG,

I have no knowledge of the afterlife, so I wish to pass no judgment on your description, but to remain open about it. If what you describe is correct, then I consider that realm as but a part of the material world, part of existence.

I would not exclude the possibilities of subtler layers, aspects or extensions within the physical universe. Energy for example is subtler than matter, so it is possible for there to be even subtler elements than energy around, elements which interact with time differently.

This scheme is interesting, but nevertheless, it does not mention God.

Dear Yuyutsu,

You have just reconfirmed my suspicion that we understand different things under “exist” (“have objective reality or being” in my dictionary). So as I said, we are now going around in circles, since - to repeat myself - there are no more fundamental terms, on the meaning of which we all can agree, and by means of which I could give you a clear-cut definition of the verb “exist” as I understand it.

Thank you for the sermon, and rest assured, nobody can “undermine my faith”. I have been exposed to atheist (Stalinist) schools, hence vaccinated against all sorts of “underminings”.

>>ANY understanding of God which includes His existence … can be easily crushed down by an above-average atheist.<<
I am not sure if you count Richard Dawkins as an above-average atheist, but there are certainly many people, who believe in an objective existence (i.e. not a delusion) of God, and whose beliefs were not crushed by him. You certainly do not want me to list all the publications critically responding to Dawkins’ book on delusion.

If you get your Catholic friend (who does not believe in the objective existence of God) to write an article on this OLO about this, I would certainly be interested.

Anyhow, thanks for this interesting (to me at least) exchange of opinions on God.