Dear Yuyutsu,

Leaving aside the notion that building castles in our little sandpit called OLO should in any way be regarded as elite could we look at your statement;

"Those who would still vote in voluntary elections belong to an elite of people who care somewhat about society and to educate themselves at least a little bit about politics."

Bunkum! Perhaps that might be true of those who were swinging voters but for the rusted on party supporters, who are going to vote for their party come hell or high water, let's not describe any such loft notions in their direction.

As to the question of how far we should take things I think we have the balance about right.

To the idea of paying people. May have merit if done properly. Might I suggest a 0.1% deduction on ones personal tax after voting in an election. Failure to vote would mean losing the deduction until the next election.

Would this measure address your concerns about abused freedoms? It certainly is not a fine as such.

Oh and were you planning on filling out this year's census form?

Dear King Hazza,

And a 'Whatever' was very tempting yet again. Your debating style is just too much hard work for me. I may not be the smartest in the room but I sure as hell ain't the dumbest and if I get frustrated by your method, especially when you get cornered, I don't think I am alone.

I am happy there is a compulsory minimum leaving age for our schools. There may be some very genuine reasons why a person might want to leave early, struggling with learning, required on the family farm, or as a carer, yet I think it stands us in good stead that we insist on it.

I understand that the teachers at my kids school spend 60% of their time on the 20% of the students who are struggling but I'm happy to pay that price.

I feel the same about our voting system. I still want the small minority who don't care at the table. I don't want myself on anyone else judging whether their interest in the political issues of the day disqualifies them from being prompted by the threat of a fine to vote.

Dear Csteele,

"Would this measure address your concerns about abused freedoms?"

Yes, the tax-deduction which you mentioned will address my concerns indeed. I just cannot see how it will address yours, because the socio-economic groups which you referred to do not pay tax.

"Oh and were you planning on filling out this year's census form?"

On becoming an Australian citizen, I agreed to observe the laws of Australia, so if I'll be in Australia at the time of the census (when, by the way? I may be away just then), then I will be filling the census form (that besides the fact that I enjoy filling such papers). Of course I only agreed to observe those laws, not to like them or to abstain from trying to change them in a democratic way.

I can't see however any justifiable reason why you, assuming you are an Australian-born, should have to fill that census.

That's sad Csteele-
The fact that you think I'm trying to be sneaky is actually your own fault- because I'm actually not attempting to be anything but direct. In fact, I'm actually being much more frank, and less prone to try to segue into irrelevant tangents to inflate my points in this discussion than you are.

So your stance is, you feel that people that don't care should be threatened with fines to show up, despite the fact that
A- it violates their rights and
B- worsens the outcome.
As opposed to letting people choose to include, or omit themselves and be responsible for their own actions, ensuring that anyone motivated can do so, and parties can no longer count on apathy to launch them into government and must try harder to demonstrate to more engaged people why they deserve to be elected.

This comment actually reinforces my belief that you can only understand simplified pigeon-holing;
"Perhaps that might be true of those who were swinging voters"
So our national make-up is composed entirely of either 'rusted on party supporters' or 'swinging voters'?
I wouldn't even want to think how you'd simplify the reasoning of voters on the Republic referendum.

Would you like another example?
The fact that you keep bringing up other 'compulsory' demands by government assuming this is a generalized "I don't like compulsory" argument.
Compulsory education requires children learning
Compulsory census requires someone providing government data to improve their understanding of who they are governing.
Compulsory voting simply forces people that don't care to do something they don't want to do for the sake of pretending we are more politically-engaged than we really are.

One of the major problems I have with OLO is that I've always been a sucker for an underdog.
In this instance, I feel a strong compulsion to stick up for Csteele, even though I don't believe in compulsory voting.
The only argument for compulsory voting that I can think of, is that it is -or could be- a valid way to express contempt for the general standard of candidacy.
If people in VV just don't show up to vote, it's just considered apathy.
If people just donkey vote, it's considered stupidity.
But if people show up and refuse to vote for any candidate, it should be viewed as contempt.
This I think would be a strong statement in a CV situation.
Unfortunately Csteele, it would be an even stronger statement in Voluntary voting.
We just need an advertising campaign:
“If every candidate sucks give them a Zero!”
Too long for a bumper sticker?

Grim:"But if people show up and refuse to vote for any candidate, it should be viewed as contempt.
This I think would be a strong statement in a CV situation."

We've had that discussion in the past and I agree with you. I confess here that I didn't vote in the last election because there was simply not a credible alternative Government being offered by either major party and I could see no reason to provide either one of them with any comfort at all, even that of second-last preference, so my protest was to choose not to participate. I took a similar approach to the last State election, when the choice was between a dishonest genderist and an incompetent nincompoop as Premier.

If there had been an option to vote "none of the above, find a new set of candidates", I'd have happil;y participated.