"To suffer an animal must have a sense of identity."

What a complete load of crap. You simply have no idea of what you are talking about.

You are trying to make an argument against providing animals for cruel slaughter by first claiming that animals do not feel pain, only us 'special' human animals can. Then you try an explain the treatment of these animals by stating that indonesians have a low standard of living. This is irrelevant, and like all your arguments do not stand up to 1 minute of scrutiny.

Perhaps you should have focused on the actual problems/solutions with the cruel methods of animal slaughter and the resulting ban.

''Live exports to Indonesia account for about one-fifth of all the Southeast Asian nation's rising beef consumption.

Jakarta is not yet satisfied that the video showing brutal abuse of Australian cattle in Indonesian slaughterhouses is authentic but has promised to intensify welfare programmes and says it has to "respect" the ban.''

It is not the government who will go hungry, theirs or ours. Cattle are bred for meat, no matter how you look at the Slaughter they do feel pain, I do not dispute that, but as the writer says, millions of people, mainly children are under nourished & are weakned then die. There will be many Indonesian workers directly employed to move the cattle from the boats, to the Slaughterhouses, and the Abottors workers will not be compensated, nor find work overnight, nor do they get Welfare as there is none. Just how do you expect their children to eat with no money coming into the family?

So by the authors argument if a human was subject to physical assault they would only feel pain because they feel like a victim and not the actualy physical assault. I do not understand the authors argument that an animal cannot feel pain because it doesnt have the sense of the victim. what about the pain induced by having its throat slit while its concious?

If we cut animals they certainly bleed, but do they feel as we do and whose pain should we feel first?
Say those who are fussy about their meat in yuppy restaurants.

This knee-jerk suspension of animal exports are typical Australian hubris resulting from exaggerated sense of racial superiority over Indonesians. Some Australians think they somehow has the "leverage" to command Indonesians on what to do with Indonesian internal affairs.

The fact is, the only people who will get hurt by this suspension are Australian farmers, as Indonesia buy 70% of their cattle. I suppose those Australians who advocated this banning are very pleased about the thought of bankrupting hundreds of Australian businesses and sending thousands of Australians into unemployment. There are no other major market for Australian beef so close and so large as Indonesia.

On the other hand, Indonesia sourced 70% of its beef needs domestically. The remaining 30% are imported, around 2/3 of the imports are from Australia. There has been growing calls for the past years from Indonesian cattlers to stop imports from overseas (including Australia) which has been depressing beef prices.

Consequently, the result of this suspension on Indonesia is minimum, as we have enough cattle stock for three months. In that period, we can easily sourced imported beef from elsewhere (India, China, USA, South America) to cover for supply shortfall. Additionally, do not expect any Indonesian importers to take the risk of buying cattle from Australia anymore, even after the suspension is lifted.

In short, with regards to cattle, Australia needs Indonesia more than Indonesia needs Australia. Basically, Indonesians barely notice of this cattle issue as it has little impact on their daily lives.

...The worry of this event from the beginning, is the demonstration of manipulative power vested interest groups such as animal rights lobby in this case, but also the homosexual lobby, Global warming lobby, environmental pressure groups, and the host of other single interest groups wield over political direction of this Nation.

...It is not factual that cattle producers are insensitive to the suffering of the animals they produce on their farms: Cattle producers live work and often die themselves, in the same harshness of environment as do their stock. Theirs is not an easy lot, their life is a difficult one, a dangerous one and mostly an isolated one; the object of which is survival of themselves, their families and their workers, it’s that simple.

...The senseless stupidity of over-reaction by the Gillard Government in suspending all live stock trade with Indonesia without notice to producers, is evidence that this Government has “lost the plot” and has become insensitive to overriding issues of survival of the cattle producers, the human element in this equation.

...What Gillard unwittingly demonstrates by these actions, is her and her Governments dislocation from reality: That reality which should put as a priority, the welfare of people before all else: But instead puts as a presumption, Humans as wrong and animals as right. And that in a nut shell is the ethics of the Animal rights lobby, a sick and moronic group of self-interested “nutters”, captivated by constellating complexes, all too willing to override the dignity and welfare of honest and industrious cattle producers, to gain points for insipid oversensitivity of animal rights, at no real cost to themselves.

PS: Great article Brian

Dan.

Proud Indonesian - you have nothing to be proud about if you think the standard of operation in the abattoirs shown in the 4Corners expose is acceptable.

As for the comment "This knee-jerk suspension of animal exports are typical Australian hubris resulting from exaggerated sense of racial superiority over Indonesians. Some Australians think they somehow has the "leverage" to command Indonesians on what to do with Indonesian internal affairs."

Playing the racist card over this incident, I immediately sense the desperation to somehow try to mitigate, in this instance, the barbaric, primitive, unprofessional actions of some of your countrymen.

I believe you have confused "race" and "culture". It's obviously a twisted psuedo-religious cultural mindset on the part of some Indonesians that allows the maltreatment of the very animals God created for our needs and expects man to respect his creatures. This means a fast, painless demise.

I agree that this had been a knee jerk reaction that could have been far better dealt with by a boycott on any abattoirs identified as below standard. This action has affected and is hurting both Australians and Indonesians involved in the Live Export industry. That is regrettable and hopefully the issue can be successfully negotiated to ensure resumption of trade under acceptable terms.

Meantime, I would like you to lobby your Government to cease seeking and accepting Australian Aid if you have such strong feelings of pride. If not - get over it!

@divine_msn:

WRT the abbatoir standards, I myself am an animal lover along with millions of Indonesia who kept dogs, cats, iguanas, or whathaveyou as pets. However, Indonesians (especially those of Muslim religion) almost always slaughter cattle by slitting their throat and bled them to death. This is daily view during the Idul Adha (Day of Sacrifice), where millions of cows and goats got slaughtered this way.

However, never will Indonesian animal lovers "command" Muslims to stop their way of slaughtering. This is asking for trouble and offends religious sensitivity unneccessarily. As such, I don't think the Muslims would want to change their traditions just because some Australians say they should. Would Australians be willing to stop binge-drinking if some Indonesians told them to?

In any case, domestic cattle made-up 70% of our beef supply, hence most Indonesians barely even notice this "boycott".

So, good luck with your attempt to destroy an entire Australian industry for nothing. The cattle that are supposed to be sent to Indonesia are most likely going to get shot dead. I guess getting shot dead is "better destiny" rather than being slit in the throat in your opinion.

WRT to aid, I do agree Indonesian govt need to stop accepting aid offered by Oz govt. We do not need foreign aid, in fact we are banned from receiving World Bank aid due to our middle-income status. Additionally, receiving just a tiny insignificant aid seems to give Australians a laughable delusion that they have "leverage" to command and interfere in our internal affairs. LOL.

proud to be Indonesian, yes it was a typical knee jerk reaction from a government that is lead around by the nose from parties that are only interested in self promotion and not much else.

But what we saw on TV was scary and not very pleasant.

The way the world is going some things need to change, we used to slaughter without thought, then we learnt that killing the animal so that it is under no duress makes the animals easier to handle it also has a benefit of better tasting meats. Its also shows that we do not have to be cruel to eat.

To slaughter an animal in Australia you need a license, so that we know it is done humanely.

Maybe some of the ideas and systems we can offer will be of use to all in your country, like stunners they do not kill the animal then it has its throat slit and bleeds to death as is custom to some faiths
This is being humanitarian, that is part of our beliefs.Better animal handling facilities and such.

Do you think your population can be maintained or grow without good trade relations, not only with the cattle industry but with other trade as well, we all have to work togeather to get over this.

If we all work hard as we are doing in fostering bad relations with each other these minority groups are going to become so unruly that no-one will be eating anything other than lettuce!

Aah, welcome back Proud to be Indonesian. I suspected that this recent event and stream of threads would provide another opportunity for you to return and project your racism onto us.

As for your statistics:

"Indonesia buy[s] 70% of [Australian farmers'] cattle".

http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/affaoverview.html
Interesting statistic. According to our Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, we only export 65% of our cattle. How do you acquire the other 5%?

Furthermore, according to this source:
http://www.abare.gov.au/publications_html/livestock/livestock_07/beef07.pdf
(I'll dig around for an updated version, but this will have to do for now)
Live cattle exports (including those to Indonesia, which have been suspended) account for 5% of the total value of cattle production. It would appear, then, that the suspension of this trade - a knee-jerk reaction and a poor one, I agree - will not destroy our industry as you hope.

The following also puts your claims in perspective:
http://www.abare.gov.au/publications_html/acs/acs_09/acs_09.pdf
The table on page 164 puts the size of the Indonesian market in perspective. It looks to me like you've made up a few statistics and assumed that we are all too stupid to check them out. Alas, we're not.

@MickC:

Well, electric shock system is not cheap. The abbatoirs in the TV program seems to be one of small-capital businesses, hence they cannot afford to invest in the expensive electric shock system.

It is true, Indonesia indeed has very good trading relationships with countries all over the world. We export a lot, and as our population grows, we import a lot as well. However, trade need to be done in win-win basis.

As far as this cattle thingy, Indonesia has been supporting the economies of West Australia and NT by purchasing hundreds of millions of dollars worth of their cattle. In part, Indonesia is the one keeping "The Outback" alive. Then, all the sudden Australia decide not to sell the cattle to Indonesia.

Hence, it is clear it is Australians who do not want good relationship with Indonesia. If this is the case, Indonesians will just find someone else who can trade on a goodwill basis, rather than being exposed to uncertainty and arbitrariness of trading with Australia.

@Otokonoko:

LOL, if Indonesian business is so small, why does Australian farmers demanding millions of dollars in compensation from Federal government? Why are the farmers called this "a devastating blow to their indurstry"?

http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/10/cruelty-claims-put-hurt-on-australian-beef/
http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2011/06/10/168761_local-news.html

You do not care about Australian farmers, do you? You would rather see thousands of Australians getting bankrupt, rather than missing an opportunity to act like old-time colonial power intefering in other countries' internal affairs?

LOL, fact is Australia is not sole producer of cattle in the world. We Indonesians can fulfill most of our beef demand domestically, and for the shortfall we can buy from a lot of other suppliers. Australia need Indonesia more than we need Australia.

Hence, as I said before, good luck with your attempt to destroy one of your own industries for nothing. LOL.

proud to indonesian, sorry we dont do electric shock thingy, we have become a little more humane, but like I said before it takes cooperation to get over hurdles like this, we are willing to help, more than likley we will pay to help you, we have the expertise in this equipment, if only cooperation was enlisted, you would find that the cattle are easier to handle easier to kill and all according to halal with the benefit of better tasting meat, we were no different in the way we killed animals not so long ago but we learnt.
It seems to me with your replies that humane killing of animals is something your not interested in, is this correct?

Wow, PtbI! Are you capable of placing your hands on your keyboard without pouring forth a stream of vitriol?

You presented a statistic that appears to have been plucked from thin air. I presented a series of statistics, backed with sources, that contradict your statement. From this, you can determine:

1) that I don't care about Australian farmers. A rather absurd assertion, especially as I concede that the suspension of live trade was "a knee jerk reaction and a poor one".

2) that I would rather see thousands of Australians bankrupted than miss an opportunity to act like an old-time colonial power interfering in other countries' internal affairs. Again, an absurd assertion, given the above.

I'm not convinced that this will destroy our cattle industry, either, as the dollars simply don't add up. You, as a perennial critic of all things Australian, should be well aware that we can be quite over-the-top with our doom and gloom. It will place hardship on our industry, and it will result in the loss of some jobs. It may also result in the closure of some businesses. For those reasons, again, I don't think it's a great decision.

As for the suggestion that I'd much rather act like a colonial power and interfere in other nations' affairs, well, there is hard proof on this forum that you have no idea what you're talking about. In the past, I have:

1) argued that we should butt out of Indonesia's legal system, and allow Indonesians to impose the penalties they believe are appropriate for our criminals detained there.

2) argued against assertions by fellow posters and other Australians that the Indonesian court system is corrupt and that Australians can't get a fair trial there.

3) argued that we need to accept that the values of our neighbouring countries differ from our own.

It seems that your capacity to smear my character is matched only by your capacity to construct a statistical argument. Both need work.

Proud To Be Indonesian is correct in one respect. Apparently Indonesian newspapers have barely mentioned the ban in live cattle exports to Indonesia.

However, not correct in “Indonesians will just find someone else who can trade on a goodwill basis, rather than being exposed to uncertainty and arbitrariness of trading with Australia”

If Indonesia or any country has a trading partner, and is unwilling to listen to the concerns of that trading partner, then eventually there are fewer trading partners left to deal with, either for imports or exports.

Having seen the videos of the slaughtering, it would appear cruel to the animal and also unsafe for the workers involved. Having a bullock running around inside a building with its throat half cut would be very unsafe for any nearby workers, and also cruel for the bullock.

I think that abattoirs (wherever it is) should have something better for the cattle and for the workers involved.

Let's hope Proud to be Indonesian is not typical of his/her compatriots. Nowhere in his/her comments is the slightest indication of concern for the welfare of the livestock. If that sort of attitude is at all prevalent in Indonesia, then it is incumbent upon the Australian end of the trade to take responsibility for ensuring animal welfare standards are met, otherwise no deal.

As Otokonoko points out, live exports to Indonesia are not critical to the beef industry in Australia overall. While a permanent ban would create hardship in the short term for the relatively small number of producers who depend on the live export trade, the industry will adapt. Twenty years ago there was no live export trade to Indonesia, but we had a thriving cattle industry, complete with abattoirs in the north.

We survived without live exports and will do so again. If Indonesia wants to buy our beef on the hoof, they have to guarantee that cattle will be humanely slaughtered, otherwise no live exports can be permitted to Indonesia.

Well put Otokonoko and morganzola.

If the issue has been nothing but a ripple in the Indonesian media what is all the fuss about.

While I can see a natural temptation to trot out the racist card on any issue of contention, it does not mitigate the fact that some countries have their own beliefs about treatment of animals and the manner in which they are slaughtered.

If religious ritual demand that an animal die in a particular way (as some sort of sacrifice for humans), other cultures and people also possess the right to disagree. Countries make decisions and judgements based on their own cultural standards. Why would you consider Indonesian culture and values any more superior than Australian (or any other).

Humane slaughter is part of Islamic Law as outlined in this speech:

http://www.beefcentral.com/p/news/article/156

Maybe it is time that 'religious law' is over-ruled by animal welfare laws?
Many old, ancient religious practices of many different religions have had to change over the years in order to keep up with the times, and with the increasing knowledge and humanity of human beings.

Why must we continue to allow the treatment of cattle or other animals to go unchecked simply because they have 'always been killed that way' in some religions?

We can't stop what other countries do to their animals, but we can refuse to send our animals to those countries.

I totally support the banning of live exports.

Ritual slaughter to produce 'halal' meat need be no more inhumane than ordinary slaughter practice in Australian abattoirs.

Indeed there is a good deal of halal meat produced here. The main difference, to reflect Muslim belief that the animal must be 'alive' when it's throat is cut, is the stun device. Instead of the bolt action stun gun that effectively kills the animal instantly before it is bled, halal slaughtermen use an electric stunner. This device delivers a powerful shock which renders the animal unconscious after which the throat is cut. If the animal is not cut it will revive and live to die another day.

Whichever method used, the objective is to cause as little stress and pain to the animal as possible. This is not only because the vast majority of Australians demand high standards of animal welfare but also of the product that ends up on their plates. As others have noted, stress at or near slaughter impacts meat quality.

What we saw on 4Corners was barbaric, unprofessional and completely unacceptable to Australians and should be to Indonesians as well. The ban has brought the matter to a very quick head, that is the good thing. Negatives are the loss of trade, income, employment etc on both sides.

The issue needs to be dealt with swiftly and co-operatively, quarantining substandard abattoirs and continuing to assist Indonesian Processors with equipment and training. This will result in better conditions for not only imported stock but domestic animals also. Trade can resume in reasonable confidence that animals bred here by producers who pride themselves on good husbandry will meet a humane end and all parties interests satisfied.

Thanks to the posters who pointed out the inconsistencies in our PTBI's rantings. Saved me the trouble.

I watched the 4 Corners program a couple of weeks ago, and it only cemented my belief, that we should stop all live exports. I think the idea that animals don't feel pain is pure bs - this was obvious. I turned my head away several times as the images were just horrific, and the sounds of those animals was worse when I didn't look - that was pain of the most horrific kind. Anyone who couldn't recognise it as such is either blind or stupid or both. Why do vets use anaesthetic during operations if they don't? What rubbish!

I don't think it was a "knee jerk" reaction at all. The overwhelming view of the majority of Australians, was that those activities were horrific and should cease. Many if not all farmers hated what was being done to those animals. Quite frankly, I don't care where the cattle or sheep come from or go to, they should be dead before they leave Australia.

The meat industry needs to organise a way where chilled or frozen meat can go to the areas in Indonesia several times a week - if they don't have refrigeration, which seems to be a major factor in this situation. In the meantime, cease sending cattle until proper and humane methods are put into practice, and the MLA can spend some of farmers's millions of dollars by having supervisors in place! Either that, or no go! It's obscene and unnecessary cruelty!

I also query the many statements by farmers that they didn't know of the cruelty. Perhaps in future they'll make it their business to find out, instead of adopting the 'if we don't ask we don't have to be responsible for the outcomes' attitude. Not good enough!

Years ago, in the 1970's I watched an program on ABC TV about a new 'you beaut' automatic processor of slaughtering cattle. It was hideous, and there was no way of knowing if the animal was dead prior to their hooves being chopped off, among other things. I was so horrified by what I saw, that I haven't eaten red meat since. I don't know what happened to this 'you beaut' new machine - hopefully it didn't become a reality. I can't go into a closed butcher shop as the smell makes me nauseous. That was nearly 4 decades ago! It was so awful that I couldn't describe it to my kids!

What I saw on TV was worse than that? To have an animal's throat gouged up to 30 times before they're finally 'still' not necessarily dead, is unforgivable and only an exhibition of extreme cruelty - nothing less. I don't give a hoot what country the so-called 'slaughterman' comes from. I hated it in this country and I feel the same about any other. I reject any claims of racism - it's to do with decency and not being cruel for the 'fun of it'? Why was it necessary to gouge eyes out, or break tails and legs? That is just horrific abuse, and only shows the most base behaviour of humans! Those 'boxes' were cruel as well as damned stupid.

There are other ways of receiving protein and other vital foods for health. There are beans of different kinds etc. If we have to acquire an income by resorting to such cruelty, then we shouldn't boast of having values of a high quality - we don't!

Indonesia has Laws about cruelty, but do not impose them. One Minister I heard interviewed admitted that the problem was theirs, not ours. They should enforce their own Laws. If they didn't give the corrupt police and Military so much money, they might be able to afford to train Supervisors and ensure that their own Laws are carried out - no pain, no trauma, no bullying and/or dangerous actions etc.

This article reads very much like the Southern justification of slavery just before the US civil war. "Nigers just do not feel pain and appreciate freedom the way the white race does. They were bred to be slaves and nothing will ever change that. How dare these moralizing Northern people threaten our economic security by talking about the rights of nigers. God knows they are better off because we look after them and this whole society will go to hell if they ever start giving rights to these nigers."

...Ludwig demands the MLA cough-up $5m dollars for compensation to cattle producers in the latest knee-jerk saga of the Gillard Government, closing off all livestock trade with Indonesia.

...Rightly, the MLA refused the demand as illegal under the constitutional rules of the MLA. So, its back to Gillard and the bleeding heart club, with the problem of compensation.

...Obviously, the correct (and increasingly urgent) procedure, is for the Government to step forward with a compensation package which will alleviate the urgent needs of the cattle producers most effected by the unthinking and naïve actions of this shallow Government.

@MickC:

As I said, the Australian "humane" electric stunner is simply unaffordable to many Indonesian abbatoirs, but if Australians are willing to come-out with the money to buy these expensive items, maybe the abbatoirs will use them. In fact, some Indonesian abbatoirs are already using these items which were funded by Australian exporters. However, the main issue is whether these abbatoirs would be willing to buy Oz cattle after this knee-jerk trade suspension. They will be exposed to severe supplier risk which can render contracts invalid and expose them to risk of financial losses.

@Otokonoko:
LOL, I don't make the figures "out of think air", but it is the figures being mentioned by Australian farmers and cattle-breeders themselves. Are you saying the farmers are lying?

@morganzola:
Let me see, from Indonesian viewpoint Australia is just one of many suppliers who are capable of supplying us with beef. If Australians, for their own internal political purposes, are unwilling to supply the beef to us, what should we do?

I think any reasonable person can figure out the answer right away: just buy from somewhere else.

Add to that there are already strong domestic political demand to gradually reduce cattle imports into the country to benefit Indonesian cattlers. Hence, there is even greater impulse for Indonesia to become self-sufficient in meat production (currently domestic cattle supply 70% of our beef). We are already self-sufficient in rice, poultry, fisheries, and other food items.

Who are the "bleeding heart club"? You either agree that what was being done to animals was cruel and should be stopped, or you don't. Calling those who were outraged members of a club is offensive. All concerned are responsible for what has been allowed to go on in too many so-called slaughter houses? I'm led to believe that Minister Ludwig was there recently, but didn't feel the need to visit any of these places - so he's culpable also. The MLA receive almost $5 for each animal that leaves Australia. They are also responsible for those hideous 'boxes'which should be outlawed, post haste! Bob Katter agrees. He says they're "ridiculous".

I'll be happy when all live exports of animals cease. It will only be a matter of time before we hear and see other hideous acts of cruelty.

I think it should be noted, that deliberate acts of eye gouging, kicking, putting water up an animal's nostrils, using up to 30 attempts to kill an animal is just unnacceptable cruelty. It's not part of normal procedures in Australia's slaughter yards.

Mind you, I still don't eat red meat. I don't support the pork industry due to cruelty to pregnant sows; I buy eggs from free range hens etc. Those who are using cruelty are damaging their own industry - not the so-called "bleeding hearts"? They caused this, not me!Stunning an animal has been accepted in many Muslim countries via communication of all concerned. It is being used in some Indonesian slaughter yards, why not all?

@Liz45:

As I said before, if you got issue with certain slaughtering practices, raise it to the trading partner instead of adopting an extremist action of total suspension. Once you take such extremist action, there is no turning back. Your trading partner will be scared-off from having anymore trading relationship with you, and they will simply trade with someone else who are less troublesome and extremist. Australia is not the sole producer of cattle in the world.

@lilasuka:

LOL, are you insane for comparing cattle with humans? I guess in your mind it is OK for Australians to eat "Negroes" but it is not OK for Indonesia to slit "Negroes' throat".

No, PtbI, I'm not accusing farmers of lying. Can you offer any evidence of cattle farmers saying that 70% of Australia's cattle are exported to Indonesia? You haven't done so yet. I suspect you won't, either, because it's simply not true. I know a fair few cattle farmers, and none of them have offered that statistic. I'm sure that 70% of SOME FARMERS' cattle may well be exported to Indonesia, however - as I have demonstrated - that is not the case for the industry as a whole.

So, for those farmers who rely on the Indonesian market, this could be disastrous if:
a) no other markets are interested in buying their product, which is unlikely, and
b) no compensation is offered to tide them over while they adjust to changes, and
c) the break in trade with Indonesia becomes permanent, either because Indonesia finds another appropriate foot-and-mouth-free source or because Australia chooses to make the break permanent.

Being a master mathematician, you'd be aware that the inclusion of two ANDs in an equation reduces probability dramatically.

By the way, do you actually laugh out loud every time you type 'LOL', or do you think it is a good way of expressing derision?

We send our cattle over to foreign countries to be slaughtered in some cases horribly.
yet, we have people out here who eat dog food instead of proper meat, should we think about feeding our country first instead of raising the economic profits.
What good are the profits if it is not distrubited fairly amoungst the full population instead of only the few.
This country is rich in lots of items, but only a few are rich.
Stop beef exports until we who want meat, have it.
Stop gain exports until we who want it, have it.
Stop coal exports until we all benfit with free power.(not all can afford solar)
We have abundence in most things in this country, why does it cost so much to live.
Supply us first, then sell whats left over to export markets, surely that would still lead to massive profits in anyones eyes.
Greed, for MONEY, this is what drives these knee jerk reactions it drives the wrong people to deliver the wrong results.
Greed, for IDEOLOGIES, this is what drives these knee jerk reactions, people with the wrong vision only to achieve their self centered ideas.
This isnt just about cattle this is about two groups of people that are fighting to dominate everyone else, one for money and one for political control.

Well, Proud to be Indonesian:

...As you pointed out, the major losers from cancelling live trade with Indonesia, are Australians. You also highlight the scuttling of the reputation of Australia Gillard has achieved by her abysmal handling of this issue; an issue that could not, in any way, be successfully concluded by this course of action. Gillards actions are not a measure of sentiment directed towards animal cruelty, but another measure of ineptitude displayed by desperation and lack of intelligent decision making from “spent” leadership.

...It has become clear the world over, the deprecation to reputation of Australia as Gillard crashes through the world stage displaying ineptitude and naivety on public issues as the mining tax, now morphing into a secessionist movement with WA: The total ineptitude and unpredictability of her leadership on the illegal immigration issue; and the theatre of the carbon tax, just to name a few of the more obvious recent events. And that excludes the high profile sacking of the Labor Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, likened more and more now to a Prime Ministerial prodigy, as a comparison.

...I think this event “nails shut” the coffin lid of the Labor party as a trusted leader of this country. Time to go Julia! So, “Proud to be Indonesian”, Democracy is poised to take control

The facts are, that the country that exports anything, carries a responsibility to ensure, that that product is OK. Similarly, if we export live cattle/sheep we should also abide by high principles.

The other fact is, that Indonesia don't have many places to choose from. Australia is free from foot and mouth disease, which makes us a viable country to receive live animals from. The other question is cost. Due to out relative short distance it's cheaper all round. For Indonesia to receive cattle from other countries is neither financially or disease risk a viable alternative.

According to a bloke on the ABC Country Hour/NSW,(go to webiste to listen and read trascript) Indonesians don't tuck in to a beef meal on an even regular basis, even those who are not poor. They're more likely to eat chicken, fish, tofu and other cheaper forms of protein, and eat beef on the occasions when they dine out. So the rubbish over feeding starving and malnourished Indonesian kids is simply not true. If you have to live on $1 or $2 a day, I don't think meat of any kind would be on the shopping list.

Even if we just view this as an economic issue. If we don't use high principles in this matter, it would possibley affect our other trade. The attitude of 'if they don't give a damn about cruelty to animals' why should we buy their dairy products or wool or cotton could result?

So, to reject the Govt's action from just a simplified view is neither responsible, practical or relevant!We have to see the big picture in regard to our reputation and practices in all areas - otherwise, the ramifications would indeed be very serious indeed!Due to the value of the dollar at present, we need to take care of all our exports - this is just part of that care!Call it a form of insurance for our economic future! I applaud the action, as do many farmers around the country.

@Otokonoko:
I think I posted the links regarding farmers' complaints in my previous post. Go look it up if you wish.

@Liz45:
The vast majority of Indonesians consume local beef which is cheaper. Australian beef is mostly for middle to upper class Indonesians or served in gourmet restaurants. Beef is highly substitutable with abundant chicken or lamb. And no, we can get undiseased beef easily from many parts of the world, the only troublespot is India. Hence, Indian beef is not allowed to be imported to Indonesia.

The thing is, your links didn't support your argument, and didn't say that Indonesia purchases 70% of our cattle.

The first states that Indonesia accounts for 60% of our LIVE beef exports, which (based on my sources) means 60% of 5% (the 5% being the percentage of our cattle that are exported live). That's 3% - a far cry from the 70% you claimed.

The second didn't offer a percentage at all.

I've said before, and I'll say again: some farmers will suffer considerably, and some may go out of business if this isn't handled appropriately. I have stood alongside you all along in saying that this is a rash, knee-jerk decision. Where we have differed is your unsubstantiated statistical argument, and your gleeful prophesying of doom for our industry. It simply doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all.

There are many people in the world that compare humans to cows. The cow is our Mother. We drink her milk for our whole life. How long did you drink the milk of your human mother? This is why in India it is illegal to kill the cow in many states. To think some one is insane because they see the cow, that provides us with her milk for our whole life as our mother, is very limited thinking. Just because someone has a different and broader understanding of other species and races than our own does not mean they are insane. In 1860 anyone that preached that the Negros of the Southern USA were not meant to be slaves, even though they had been bred to be slaves, was considered insane and prosecuted or killed by the slave owning farmers. But times have changed and the social consciousness has advanced.

Now anyone that does not agree with killing cows may be considered insane by some of the meat eaters. At least we live in more enlightened times and we are not prosecuted for our believes to protect the cow. Society has learned to recognize the sufferings and rights of races other than our own. The banning of the life cattle trade from Australia is a positive sign that the Australian society is learning to recognize the sufferings and rights of species other than our own. Indonesia as a whole is apparently not as advanced in this regard as they are not calling for the people who tortured these cows to death to be prosecuted. Some other societies are on the whole more advanced than Australia in the consciousness that removes us from the base consciousness of eat what taste good and care nothing for the suffering of others. The consciousness and lack of selfishness on the whole varies greatly from one society to the next on this planet. Please try to understand other points of views and levels of consciousness. Simply calling some one insane because they think differently from myself will not help our personal development.

@Otokonoko:

Well, if you think so it is up to you. The welfare of Australian farmers is not Indonesians' responsibility.

@lilasuka:

I don't think one country who still eats and slaughtered cattle is any more "advanced" than any other country what does exactly the same. Your analogy with slave trade is pure logical fallacy.

@ Proud to be Indonesian:

Clearly, if Indonesian abattoirs wish to slaughter livestock inhumanely, they should buy them from somewhere other than Australia. I note that you continue to show little concern for animal welfare.

Unless Indonesia can show that live animals sourced in Australia can be protected from indifference to cruelty such as you diplay, there should be no live exports to that market. If the industry isn't sustainable for humane reasons, Australia can live without it. The vast majority of Australians are apparently against live exports anyway.

There is a great difference between the rights of animals in one country and in another. Dogs can not be bred and eaten in Australia. Cows can not be bred and eaten in many states of India. But some one in Indonesia can torture a cow to death on film and face no recrimination. The consciousness of the societies in the different places determines what practices will be allowed.

The analogy of slavery is simple. In 1860 slavery was justified because "they were bred to be slaves." A similar argument is still used to justify the slaughter of cows. "They were bred to be slaughtered." Just because someone has bred an animal or human for a certain purpose does not make that purpose justified. Slavery was once claimed as needed for the economic survival of the farmers. Killing cows is now claimed as needed for the economic survival of the farmers. Both of these arguments are false. Try to see a greater variety of social attitudes and a greater span of history. Than you can have a clearer understanding of these issues without personal bias interfering so much.

If PTBI believes the way animals were slaughtered and treated on the program was humane there is not much merit in continuing the debate. You can't argue with someone who won't acknowledge the conditions or thinks that it is perfectly okay.

There are many people who don't believe animals deserve to be treated humanely - that somehow animals don't feel pain. That attitude also exists in Australia which keeps groups like the RSPCA busy. While the suspension is welcomed on live exports to Indonesia there is more work to be done in Australia while continuing to ignore the conditions of battery hens and some of the worst offenders in the pig industry. However in those areas small positive changes are being made - like all change it evolves slowly. Thankfully most farmers are concerned about their animals.

Nothing but a ban on live exports will ensure animal welfare concerns are met but it won't happen mores the pity, there are too many pressures on governments and frankly both Labor and the Coalition are too weak to go against business. Environmental protection is in the same camp as animal welfare while we watch even as the few remaining old growth forests are continually eroded. Mining interests will nearly always win over environmental protection. Short term policy making is the norm with little attention to long term consequences.

@Proud to be Indonesian - "And no, we can get undiseased beef easily from many parts of the world" Well name them! I listen to the ABC radio all day every day, until 7pm. This includes listening to The Country Hour. I've not heard anyone name the countries who could export to Indonesia WITH pure history re foot and mouth disease, or some other.

You didn't address the vital aspect of cost? Did you listen to or read the interview on The Country Hour in respect of what Indonesians eat the most, including those who can afford meat? The fact is that Australian beef is bigger and people like the taste, also, Indonesia wants to build up their stocks. If they have to slaughter more of their own cattle it will include females. They need cows to build up stocks.

If you want to disagree with me or anyone else, you need to put forward other arguments and where you get your figures from etc. Just saying that there are other countries that will provide cattle isn't good enough without stating what those countries are. Name some!

I suggest that you go to the Country Hour website, AM and PM also, and read some of the interviews there. There's lots of people more capable of listening to etc than me. Indonesia needs to watch their costs; cattle from Sth America etc would add huge costs. I don't think they have a 'pure' history either. That's why Australian beef is such a good product. Also, we don't want our products being contaminated by diseased stock from other countries. So, it's in everyones's best interest to abide by the humane Laws that are already in place in both countries - they just need to be adhered to!

Perhaps the suffering and killing of animals is a necessary lens through which to assess humankind altogether.

http://www.fearnomorezoo.org/literature/observe_learn.php

http://www.dabase.org/p9rightness.htm

Dont forget that the 4 Corners story was promoted by and filmed by an animal rights organisation, and (as any organisation trying to promote a point is want to do) they exaggerated both the extent of the problem and Australia's involvement in it. Please, if you really care about this issue, please read this link. The letter is written by an intelligent and knowledgable worker in the industry who is able to articulate the real situation in Indonesia, the investment made by Australian and Indonesian business in recent years to improve the slaughter methods and the impacts that this ban will have obth on Australian producers, those that have poured money into improvements and on the local indonesians.

http://sl.farmonline.com.au/blogs/farmonline-opinion/a-letter-to-four-corners-from-wellard-rural-exports/2193028.aspx

Country Gal:

...The situation speaks for itself! The ineptitude of this Government on all fronts is staggering. I would suggest you cease your search for logic on this one too! Cheers...

Dan...

The life export industry has put lots of money into making this business less cruel for the cattle? I wonder how bad it was before if the present level of cruelty is unacceptable to the Australian public. We live in a democracy and the majority do not want life export. We have no control over the fate of these animals once they leave our shores. Those boats loaded just before the ban are not being brought back to Australia. Is there any reason to think the fate of these cattle will not be the same as the previous ones?

Simply tax meat to keep the price the same and use the tax money collected to retrain those farmers that cannot function without life export into a new industry. Why would anybody want to remain in an industry that the majority of the population find repulsive and cruel. From a country boy and cattle owner.

@morganzola:

LOL, of course Indonesia will just buy cattle from someone else. That is what I've been telling you all along. Your abscence of concern or care about the welfare of Australian farmers also confirms what I've been saying all along as well.

@lilasuka:

Interesting, if you say cattles are equal to Negro slaves, then you are saying Australians have been eating Negro slaves. In other words, you are accusing Australians of cannibalism? LOL

@Liz45:

LOL, taking us for granted, are you? As far as I can see, there is no shortage of beef in Indonesia these days. As I said, we produce 70% of our beef domestically, while the remaining are now imported from New Zealand, USA, South America, etc. The cost of imported beef might increase, but they are being consumed by the middle-class and wealthy Indonesians who can afford it. The less-prosperous Indonesians have been eating domestic beef all along, so this Oz cattle ruckus does not influence them.

There are similarities between the life export for slaughter and the trans Atlantic Slave trade. Not that Negro slaves and cows are the same. But the attitude of a few that cattle were bred to be slaughtered so why worry about how they are killed is the same as the attitude in 1860 of Southern USA farmers. For them Negros were bred to be slaves and therefore had no rights and no one should worry about them being worked to death. I have just used this example to show that we can not justify cruelty or taking the rights away from any living entity on the grounds of what someone desired to breed them for. Fortunately, I think most understand this point.

As far as cannibalism is concerned eating the cow is even worse. She gives us her milk for our whole life. So she is our Mother in this regard even more than the mother we took birth from that only gives us milk for one or two years. Cannibals generally never kill their own Mother and eat her. Anyway, this is a higher level of consciousness and understanding that will not be comprehended by someone that is still eating the cow. Do some research into why the cow is considered sacred and never killed in some cultures plus give up living on the flesh, blood and suffering of the cow. Then it becomes possible to understand these higher topics.

But the violence and suffering involved in the life animal for slaughter trade is repulsive even for those who are not able to see the cow as one of our mothers. From a country boy and a cattle owner.

@lilasuka

"simply tax meat..." Obviously written by someone completely removed from the practicalities of life - tax isnt simple and administering it is an incredible waste of money. And as far as the cow being our Mother?? What about all those lactose intolerant people haha? Seriously? Dairy cows make crap eating (given that one branch of the family operate a dairy I can say that from experience). Meat cattle make crap milking. That's why we have dairy breeds and beef breeds. And then we have the breeds that we export to other countries because they are suited to our tropical north, and Australians wont eat them (except at Macca's) - about as tough and tasteless as a Fresian.

@ Diver Dan. Yes, I know - completely agree. Bowing to public pressure just annoys the hell out of me. Wont bow to public pressure about not having a carbon tax through... makes you wonder who is really setting the policy agenda.