Dug,
I think "evolution" has moved a bit beyond theory now, but, be that as it may, a pretty fair posting. The best I've seen of yours I think. Pity you have to bash Christians so much. You've proven yourself to be a pretty clear thinker, quite capable of reasoned, considered argument. In view of this, I think your expressed views of Christianity are somewhat out of character. Whereas there are those out there who are indeed, in my humble opinion, "beyond the pale", there are also many, many moderate, humble Christians who hold no ill-will toward any man, and who are just intent on leading the best lives they can, and without interfering in the lives of others, irrespective of belief. As with other belief systems, we're not all tarred with the same brush.

This is the longest, and perhaps most controversial thread I've encountered so far. In view of the broad range of opposing views expressed I have come to a conclusion that religion should Not indeed be taught in schools. "Pelican" and "Dan Dare" have offered reasoned arguments for religious studies as such to be a matter for families, outside school, and that schools should only provide some instruction, by appropriately qualified professional teachers, in ethics and introductory, comparative, studies of religion generally - just so students are aware of the many and varied belief systems out there, and their origins. I'm sure an appropriate course curriculum could be developed, with goodwill on all sides. With a sound foundation I feel students will have the best opportunity to develop their own views on what is now a rather vexed, though important area of our global society. At what age, and over what time-frame, I leave to those with appropriate expertise to determine.

As in all things, I certainly hope goodwill may prevail, through appropriate compromise for the common good.

There is virtually no support for a historical Jesus outside the 4 canonical gospels - just scant reference to his followers or him in a few extra-biblical texts (Josephus and Tacitus). Some of Josephus's writings referring to Jesus are considered by a majority of scholars to have been later additions.

It is conceivable the stories are a compilations of characters given the popularity of the name Jesus in that messianic age (Josephus refers to at least one other).

Salty ;-) You do actually make me laugh with your comments, let me assure you any christian bashing I do is purely verbal and in the spirit of a healthy discussion between adults who can choose to participate.

No where near the almost ritualistic punishments I and my school friends were forced to endure at the hands of "Good Christian" teachers. Beatings were a regular occurrence as were other punishments for any child who dared hold an opinion that was not church doctrine.

Any minor infraction was punished, failure was not tolerated ( being disabled this made me a particular target for their abuse)

So pardon me if my language occasionally offends your sensitivities, perhaps I am looking at this from a different viewpoint to you.

My view comes from that of an abused christian who regularly prayed to a person who he was told was a loving and caring God/ Jesus to either make him able to do what was required to stop the abuse or if that was not possible to make my teachers realize I was trying as hard as I could and to stop beating me.

6 years later when I was expelled from school for not being able to cope with my lessons my prayers still had not been answered.

45 years after the beatings finished I still have pain in my hands form them and I still have the scars physical and emotional from the abuse.

Care to explain just why you think your god allowed this to happen to me, especially when I was praying to him every night ?

( oh and before you tell me God never gives us more than we can bear, explain my 2 school friends, the one who left school and went into an asylum for most of his life and they other one who committed suicide because she could no longer stand the bullying) All in the name of your god and we used to pray together because your bible told us that if 2 or 3 gather together and pray their prayers would be answered.

McReal,

I never read all the contributions above and was not intending to contradict you. Since, however, Tacitus was a scrupulous historian, and that his references to Jesus are more in the nature of asides than focal points, I'm inclined to think there was an historical Jesus--though I'm not an expert and would gladly defer contrary evidence. However the crucial point is surely that Jesus as the son of God, or in any way extra-mundane, is biblical fundamentalism.

"Evolution itself is just an observable fact" And you have observed mankind become what exactly?
Here's a 99.9% theory for you..
http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2010/04/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture/
Only 4 weeks ago miss grade 11 told me of her discussion with her ancient History teacher in regards to the age of the world and how it came about.a Big Bang - I need no more evidence of it being taught in school than my own children and their assignments. I take my kids to museums,we love science and of course dinosaurs exist!I love the questions,the fossils and the brilliant scientists who's curiosity is to be applauded. Creationism is widely held by different cultures with or without the Bible and should be an alternative presented. Sorry if you are offended by my lack of evidence, but I see the whole world as being evidence of Intelligent design, it ticks all the boxes, you need your piece of paper, i need only my eyes.
"Oh dear Rebecca you know telling lies for Jesus makes him cry"", this is your retort? :-(
If you want a Scientific debate http://creation.com/creation-answers
When I considered evolution it took more faith to believe that then to have a creator. As for RE, this thread -the ten commandments mixed with love thy neighbor are timeless and should be taught.(Dug, we pulled our children out of a Private Christian school(not Catholic) because of abuse and judgement, then a teacher in a state school physically abused my son for not doing homework - she was stood down. I am sorry that they got away with it with you, some people are just awful regardless of what banner they fly.
only two references to Christ in ancient texts? http://www.lifeofchrist.com/history/historians/default.asp
think not.
freedom to believe what you want is the only way to go. Being presented with more than one side (including other beliefs) perhaps should be left til high school when argumentative teens can determine for themselves. I conclude that RE should be at home but values, morals and ethics - closely related should be taught to our young people, these are the socio-economics of our Australia.

@Rebecca "Creationism is widely held by different cultures with or without the Bible and should be an alternative presented."

Oh Rebecca, what nonsense is that? Are we to infer that you want, for example, the Aboriginal creation account of the Dreamtime to be taught to the kiddies as FACT? As if you do!! haha.

Ah, but of course you really only mean YOUR particular creation myth ought to be taught, don't you? You know, the one that ISN'T "widely held by different cultures with or without the Bible", as you tried to imply.

--

@Rebecca "the ten commandments mixed with love thy neighbor are timeless and should be taught"

Timeless? Seriously? Let's see...

1. "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

I don't remember being brought out of a house of bondage in Egpyt, do you Rebecca?

2. "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me."

Oh yes, definitely want the primary kids fearing God 'coz he kicks ass if you don't fawn all over him.

umm...
10. "You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey."

Yes slaves and oxen are hard not to covet aren't they, Rebecca?

Lucky for us God forsaw all the issues we'd still be having 2000 years later, so that he could make his little rules so "timeless", as you say.