I'm wondering how many of the christains taking part in this debate keeping in mind the bible's teaching about letting your yes be yes and no be no (in the plainest sense of that) can say that they really believe that most of the christian adults involved in RE do so primarily because of the importance of the cultural heritage aspect rather than the outreach/evangelism aspects.

How many think that they could stand before christ and say that when they thought of RE in schools that cultural heritage was an important issue and that they didn't think evangalism was a big part of what it was about?

R0bert

As all 6 of my children attend a State school and we are Bible believing people, perhaps I should have been upset when teachers taught about the dream time and evolution - all of which are only theories (yes people, evolution is only a theory, so too is the Big Bang - falsely taught as fact - do your science before you try to tell me off as you will see that there is actually no evidence so far to prove either - only theories which change with each generation of scientists including Darwin who himself said that if you cannot find a missing link then my theory is null and void). Perhaps you would like no Bible teaching at school but I and many other Aussies do, hence the 'discussion' - which some of you can't handle by the looks of all your criticisms. Whether YOU believe it or not is irrelevant, It is an alternative that has been taught for thousands of years. The evidence of Jesus Christ's existence is undeniable, He was recorded in many ancient documents and acknowledged by ancient civilizations; you think you're smarter and want to say he didn't, then your foolishness speaks for itself.Archeologists vouch for the Bibles authenticity; Did you know that Noah's ark is found on Mt.Ararat exactly where the Bible said?
Be values universal or of the Bible, who is going to teach them to children if their parents don't? we all know there are negligent parents out there.Do they have to be caught stealing before they evolve in their realization? Is 'not knowing' about something an argument that will win in court?
Only a fool thinks that the teachers teach fire and brimstone,that is not even 1% of whats taught.If you only have bad memories then I would suggest you didn't listen. The virtues that are taught stay with people their whole lives, even non-believers. If Maths, English and Science are the most important things to teach kids then why do we have depression, suicide, Murder? The key lies in teaching the heart - teachers don't teach that.

Oh Rebecca,

the level of your ignorance and misunderstanding is very sad.

Theory, in science, means "the best possible understanding we have of how things are, based on evidence and many attempts to show the understanding to be incorrect or not a unique fit to the facts". It does not mean "a sort of guess".

Evolution itself is just an observable fact. Populations of life forms change over time. The theory you are referring to is the theory of evolution by natural selection. We have shown, over thousands of years, that the form of animals and plants can be changed by artificial selection, by humans choosing the best seeds or the best mating pairs in domesticated animals and plants. The theory of natural selection proposes that nature also does such selecting by the circumstances of life, death and procreation in the wild. Huge amounts of evidence have been collected and studied that show the theory is correct.

The reason this apparent derail is important is that religious indoctrination teachers tend to hold dogmas, as you do, against the scientific facts because of various metaphorical stories in ancient texts. Those texts, such as the Bible and Koran, were written by people who were ignorant by todays standards and what they wrote in this respect would not be considered valid by anyone who was not defending a very outdated dogma. Fortunately most churches have accepted this and moved on, but the RI teachers from Catch the Fire Ministries, as just one example, are very narrow dogmatists.

Children that are instructed in such dogma have a difficult time with science education, because they must prevent themselves from following the logic of the scientific method, in order to avoid mentally disagreeing with the dogma they have been indoctrinated into.

Using the school's authority to push this on students, and making the students fear contradicting the dogmas presented via these classes, is very bad for them and for the society that they will eventually be contributors to.

Now, Rebecca, as to your other comments. Christianity is one of a great many belief systems. As with the other religions christianity contains factual statements about the nature of the world that are simply wrong and it also contains instructions about behaviour known as morals. The morals bound up in christianity (and its countless variations) are simply not universally agreed by all parents, nor are those of buddhism, islam, taoism, and so on.

The process of working out what is right or wrong is known as ethics. The skill of ethical thought does not involve being given rules and proving them to be true no matter what. Instead ethics is about seeing how what you do effects your future, and other people, and deciding principles based on deep thinking about how to achieve the best for everyone concerned and to minimise harms from your own actions.

The dogmatic religious groups behind much religious instruction in schools hate ethics because it does not automatically agree with their deeply held moral opinions, and can lead to students developing other ideas. So, here is the question, why should we accept religious instruction in one narrow brand of religion rather than helping students to guide themselves and develop their own wisdom?

Oh dear Rebecca you know telling lies for Jesus makes him cry.

No ark ship vessel or any evidence of such has ever been found on any mountain anywhere in the world. Regardless of repeated claims it is just not true.

If you can point me to a published thesis that has been reviewed and tested that support this THEORY then please post it here for out edification.

Unless sound science based evidence is produced to support your theory then it is even less valid than the big bang or evolution.

Regarding the teaching of evolution no decent science teacher would ever teach a theory as a fact. One of the basics of science is to properly explain what a theory is and how it can never be proved only ever disproved.

For over 150 years many have tried to disprove evolution as a theory and all have failed in every attempt, it remains the best explanation for how life developed on earth. the same for the Big Bang it is the best and most supported theory we have available.

If you are ignorant of these FACTS please take the effort to educate yourself before posting and displaying your ignorance here.

If any teacher is teaching Big Bang theory or the theory of evolution as a fact then please publish the evidence supporting your claim and we will back you 100% to get that changed to the correct wording.

If you have no facts to back your claims then please have the decency to do the right thing and admit you were wrong and apologize for spreading disinformation on a public forum.

cheers doug

Rebecca6,

welcome to OLO. I also have six kids, four so far currently going through the state education system.

I think most of us acknowledge the historical Jesus, but we have a hard time believing he was the son of God. Indeed Jesus makes no such claim himself, except on one dubious occasion in the Markan trial scene, where Mark has his own agenda. Jesus doesn't claim to be the Messiah either, except on two occasions, both historically dubious. Indeed the term Messiah was conceived more as a human rather than a divine figure, the dominant sense being Israel's political redeemer, along with some vague allusions to spiritual redemption. Curiously the, all the Gospels are disposed to incriminate the Jews and exculpate the Romans. Such textual revisionism surely bespeaks a degree of poetic cum political licence in the Holy book? The assumption supported by the fact that the Gospels are all decidedly post factum. And of course you know that translation effectively means cultural transmutation? and that historicism renders ancient texts obsolete in any case?
Since Jesus' divinity is not established, and that we've never seen the like, we are also sceptical that Jesus was exempt from the customary laws of physics and human mortality. Do you have any evidence to support these extraordinary phenomena?

We did know that the Ark has allegedly been pinpointed in various locations, but that there is no compelling evidence.
Did you know that thousands of dinosaur fossils, hundreds of millions of years old have been found and validated?
I'm sorry, but the utter paucity of evidence on your side and the overwhelming and uncontravertable evidence, including of evolution, on our side, points to the fact that humans are not the centre of the universe, bummer!
I would therefore rather my six children were taught religion as part of the rich history of human folly, but also as part of the grand history of human maturation and striving to understand.
I understand your wishful thinking (which should make you sceptical), but it doesn't make it so.
Much sounder ethics are available from other human sources.