@Shockadelic cont'd...

JJ wrote: "you must agree that playground time for some students disadvantages those who attend SRI?"

Shockadelic replied: "If they feel so, they can opt out too."

But then they'll be disadvantaged by not attending SRI, silly!

And on that anti-Ethics "argument" of the ACL and others, if kids who want to attend SRI would be disadvantaged by missing out on Ethics classes, then surely the ones who are learning to be Christians are disadvantaged by missing out on the Muslim classes. And the one who are being taught to think Islam are missing out on Bahai instruction. And...

Oh dear! So many children being disadvantaged! I wonder why the ACL only think it's a problem when secular Ethics classes are proposed, but have no truck with letting the kiddies miss out on other religious instruction or that oh-so-valuable sitting-alone-in-the-playground time you put so much stock in, Shockadelic.

It's *almost* as if they fear a secular ethics class would undermine the propaganda that you can't be good without religion! If people found that out, then where would the ACL be!?

It's also funny how these diverse religions band together when it's expedient. ACL (at the moment) has no problem with other religions being taught at the same time as Christian scripture... after all, it's all religious innit? You've gotta have "faith"!

But then of course, we occasionally see their true colours emerge, such as the egregious Jim Wallace's recent ANZAC Day twitter gaffe in which he let slip the Christian lobby's utter contempt for muslims, and gays, and really anything that's changed in the last 95 years since Jim's old dad was a wee lad.

And THAT is the real reason why activist Christians are adamant the kiddies must be indoctrinated into their ways: The Christian lobbyists HATE CHANGE and want to ensure their own personalities are preserved in perpetuity, by promulgating their pathetic little prejudices & pecadilloes to the poor little primary people.

Nothing at all to do with Western culture being "utterly indecipherable" if you don't praise God in primary school as you LAUGHABLY suggest, Shockadelic.

If anyone reading Chrys Stevenson's last comment is wondering why a professional teacher was required to supervise a volunteer SRE teacher, this quote from the president of the Queensland Teachers Union explains:

"Queensland Teachers Union president Steve Ryan said teachers were sometimes compelled to supervise the instructors "because of all the fire and brimstone stuff".
Mr Ryan said Education Queensland had deemed RI a must-have, though teachers would prefer to spend the time on curriculum."

Source: http://www.news.com.au/national/creationists-hijack-lessons-and-teach-schoolkids-man-and-dinosaurs-walked-together/story-e6frfkvr-1225899497234#ixzz1LTWRSedd

http://www.news.com.au/national/creationists-hijack-lessons-and-teach-schoolkids-man-and-dinosaurs-walked-together/story-e6frfkvr-1225899497234

I guess as unbelievers we need to understand that these Christians are not opposing us in person it is just that they believe we represent SATAN the devil himself and the hordes of evil demons hell bent on the destruction of civilization as they know it.

it is not sufficient for them to actually believe their holy book that the simple power of prayer is enough to defeat us they need to take on our demonic horde in every debate and forum.

To me this shows (A) that they really do not believe their bible and (B) that believing in totally imaginary beings and ancient superstitions is dangerous in the extreme.

People who are closet creationists, those who are anti science, those who are willing to terrify young children with threats to gain their compliance, those who are willing to openly lie to spread their beliefs have no place in our schools.

Somewhere someone told me I was unreasonable and did not acknowledge the role of the church in creating our modern free and open democratic society.

I wonder if they have studied any history at all, Religion has had a far greater role in repression of new ideas and freedoms, in punishing those who disrupted the established order of the world as they knew it.

For centuries religions and feudal Monarchies ruled with the fear of torture in this world and hell in the next for anyone who spoke out and asked for change or freedom.

We are still seeing priests and ministers vilified for offering a different opinion on controversial issues. To say organized religion is a force for freedom, openness and the rights of individuals is just laughable, or it would be laughable if it was not so sad.

To all those theists who read this, IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF PRAYER AND THE WORDS OF YOUR BIBLE DO NOT REPLY, PRAY FOR MY SOUL AND
ONCE I SEE THE ERROR OF MY WAYS I WILL PUBLISH A RETRACTION.

You all powerful God will command me to and I will be powerless to disobey.

Actually, I just remembered something.

As a child, I once had occasion to be installed in a Christian mission for several moths (long story)...and was fairly well dipped like a sheep into Christian proselytising - and I remember that they had mini comic books extolling the virtues of following the Christian religion.

The "only" detail I can remember of these books is one page depicting the fires of hell and an unbeliever's accompanying anguish - most disturbing for a child to see a drawn depiction like that - and I can't remember anything else about the message in these books except the hellfire. It's my abiding image.

Poirot
Your experience is not an isolated case.

Some teachings have very little to do with ethics, values, love or humanity and focus on sin, hate and revenge. I remember watching a documentary set in an evangelical youth camp in the US and the kids were subjected to nothing more than immense cruelty and humiliation around natural sin to the point where students were pushed to tears. It was nothing more than abuse. It is the negativity of SOME who practice religion and pushed by SOME of those involved in Chaplaincy and SRI, many often without any real qualification that is of real concern.

There appears to be little screening and while not all who teach RI are of this ilk, many being more secular and ethical in their approach, the problem lies with power. As soon as you give any group too much power and unaccountable authority there is room for abuse.

This is the only reason I oppose any dogma or agenda being pushed in schools. (Excluding natural open discussion and debate within the curriculum)

Shockadelic
"What do you do in Atheist class? Sit quietly and not believe stuff?"

I am not advocating Atheist classes? According to the author of this article there is an assumption that those who do not share the Christian religon are 'militants' and atheists are baying at the door with armoured vehicles ready to ban and criminalise religion.

They are not. They are reasonably asking that religion be for the home and that schools not be exploited as recruitment for any manner of dogma whether it be Marxism or Chritianity or Islam. What ever happened to parents taking responsibility for the ethical development of their children. Ethics can be reinforced in schools via behavioural expectations and by modelling respectful behaviours but not served up as a dish.

Like Christians, Athiests are not a homogenous group, the only commonality being a disbelief in the supernatural without evidence. This is not the same as not having values, moral codes and an ability to show love and compassion. Religion does not always enhance morality or compassion in the way that you seem to think it does, look at the discrimination against gays. It always comes down to individual choices about how to treat people, religion has not changed that simple fact.

Atheists as a group certainly have not idolised false gods nor have they burnt people at the stake who disagree with their worldview - these are not values that people in the main would subject another human being other than via indoctrination. It is the same indoctrination that led to the persecution of Jews under Hitler's Germany, the persecution of Christians in the Middle East etc. This does not mean Atheists aren't flawed but no more flawed than those who choose a supernatural belief.

Now we know Christianity has evolved from some of those more barbaric practices, despite some of the remnant language in the Bible, so lets keep evolving and move away from State sanctioned indoctrination within schools. It is more than just about Opt In or Opt Out.

It is about cultural maturity and growing up.