At the end of the day, all this babble about jews, arabs, zionism, occupation, who's right and who's wrong is just that...babble

The premise of peace in the region always and always will be whether the Palestinians an other Arab (read muslim) states accept Israels right to exist

Simple.

Nothing else is in the mix or if they are...they are red herrings

The simple fact is...they dont, wont and never will accept her.

So the status quo of keeping each other at arms length is the only solution.

Sorry but thats the way it is.

And believing anything else is folly that WILL lead to the end of the sate of Israel which as I said before..

...aint happenin'.

Sorry Allah....live with it.

Dear Yakabebe,

Perhaps you are right in your estimate of Arabs/Muslims. I hope you are wrong on that point, but perhaps you are right.

Even if the Arabs will never accept Israel's existence, this does not justify Israel behaving as a rogue state and retaining its pariah status, it does not imply that Israel cannot or should not be accepted as a respectable member of the family of nations, if not by the Arabs then at least by the rest of the world.

The occupation and settlements are against Israel's own best interests. They harm Israel more than they harm anyone else, certainly not the Arabs, who couldn't care less about ordinary Palestinians (in fact, the more Palestinians suffer, the happier the Arabs because it fuels their propaganda campaign). The occupation corrodes Israel from within, undermining its moral underpinnings, introducing a standard of violence and militarism into every aspect of Israeli life (including domestic, road and school violence, crime and official corruption). It also sucks out any ounce of pride for being Israeli and any desire to volunteer and do something good for it.

Israel was created and flourished against all odds only due to its moral superiority, but once Israel loses even its remaining slight moral advantage which it still retains over its surrounding countries, it will cease to exist and then there will be nothing to be sad for, once all that remained was anyway just the body but not the soul.

In 1967, Israel tragically fell into a honey-trap set by the Arab world. It took the bait, and one of the results is that today it is a pariah state. It is probably still not too late to recover from that poison, it is still probably possible to throw it up, but time is of the essence.

We should be thankful to forum members, such as Rose, Rexw and Arjay for whipping Israel. Perhaps Israel can still be saved.

Yuy - when you mention that Israel fell for the honeytrap set by the Arabs in 67 - remember, mate - the alternative was to get beat and annihilated. Sowmehow I think they did the right thing

The "occupied" territory's rae a set of disputed territories and according to yours and others theses...Israel could make all things go great simply by giving them back

Well..we did that with Gaza and from Day 1 the rockets commenced. Day 1.

Really what is to be gained by giving them back?

In each and every case, every concession made by the Jews (BTW..name one that the Palestinians have made....) but every one of the Jews has been greeted by the Palestinians as merely the intervening step on their way to the eradication of the Zionist (read Jew) state.

Giving back Gaza, then W/B & then Jerusalem would simply embolden them to the next phase except now all of Israel would be within ready striking distance of the rockets

Simply doesnt work mate.

Dear Yakabebe,

"the alternative was to get beat and annihilated. Sowmehow I think they did the right thing"

It was indeed the right thing in 1967 to enter and hit the Arab armies as severly as possible, but then it was the right thing to leave the place shortly after.

"The "occupied" territory's rae a set of disputed territories and according to yours and others theses..."

Note that I deliberately avoided the issue of "land-rights" and only discussed what is good for Israel. If you do not have the right to disown a piece of property, then you do not own it [Baldy Harper]!

"Israel could make all things go great simply by giving them back"

Certainly no ALL things, that would amount to magic/miracles.
But certain things, yes.

"Well..we did that with Gaza and from Day 1 the rockets commenced. Day 1."

Way too late... still, better than never.

"Really what is to be gained by giving them back?"

Otherwise, Israel would have been even deeper under morally (deeper than 6 feet) than it is now, and even more hated by the whole world than it currently is. Chances are that it would already by now be bent under heavy sanctions.

"In each and every case, every concession made by the Jews (BTW..name one that the Palestinians have made....) but every one of the Jews has been greeted by the Palestinians as merely the intervening step on their way to the eradication of the Zionist (read Jew) state."

Since when were the Palestinians appointed as your moral compass? Since when have they been allowed to dictate Israel's behaviour? Haven't Israel got any independence left?
(just imagine what havoc the Pals could do to Israel if they had an inside-knowledge that whatever they say obliges you to do the opposite...)

"Giving back Gaza, then W/B & then Jerusalem would simply embolden them to the next phase except now all of Israel would be within ready striking distance of the rockets"

That may be, but you should weigh in the crucial advantages, rather than base your policy on a single inconvenience.

Yuyustu,you have to be kidding.Plants soon work out where the energy comes from,much like insecure humans seeking power.Don't try to obsfucate.You know what I mean but don't like confronting the truth.

Many are trying to blame it all on Israel when in fact there are many corporate international players pushing for the War agenda.They want to liberate Libya and Iran not to help their people but to take the oil.

Humans have turned into disgusting pariahs who feed off the good will and endeavours of their own species.It will not end well.They were wrong about WW1 to be the war to end all wars.On the third time they will fulfill their aspirations.Humans definetly have a self destructive gene.

Your analysis was absolutley right about the USA and oil, Arjay.

You might also be interested to know, that the reason why the USA invaded Germany 1n 1945, in order to topple the popular and democratically elected leader of Germany (Adolph Hitler) was because President Roosevelt had ties to Big Beer, and the USA wanted to take over the German beer industry.

What was even worse, was that those stupid Americans believed the the utterly spurious claim made by controversial Jewish scientists like Albert Einstein, that Hitler was tryimg to build an atom bomb using the heavy water (H3O) method. This claim was was shown to be false when the Adolph Hitler made a public statement denying the rumours, and inviting international inspectors to investigate.

It is true that these inspectors were stuffed around and made fools of by the Nationalist SOCIALIST German governement, but that that did not prove anything, and the Germans should have been given the benefit of the doubt.

The invasion of Germany produced thousands of civilian casuaties as well as huge environmental damage, and all for Big Beer.

It is believed that the invasion almost completely destroyed the habitat of a unique and endangered species, the Spineless French Frog.

What was worse, was that tens of thousands of German soldiers were incarceated in POW camps without charges, some of them were "rendered" to camps in Allied countries, and they were all denied legal representation.

Claims by Jews that the Germans were massacring millions of Jewish civilians in extermination camps was obviously Jewish propaganda and remains to this day an unproven charge.

You are absolutely right, Arjay, the USA is just evil. Onya, mate.