Proxy,

Just for a moment let’s forget whether a gay or straight life contains more hazards or whether flying or driving a car is more dangerous or whether being a vegetarian has more health benefits leading to a longer life than someone who eats too much meat or whether someone born in Somalia has less chance at a long and happy life than does the average Westerner and concentrate on a hypothetical situation you can engage in. You will notice, with some of the aforesaid situations a choice is possible, whist with others, it is not.

Now, just imagine you are at the podium in an auditorium and seated before you are the people from http://www.thepotentialweddingalbum.org/ whom I should imagine you have viewed and read of their stories.

What would you say to them, let’s say, in a fifteen minute speech promoting your minority view.

David

"The existence of ex-homosexuals,
eg,
Linda Jernigan,
Charlene Coltrane,
Michael Glatze,
Jackie Clune,
Janet Boynes,
etc.
demonstrates that homosexuality is not immutable."
-Proxy

Nice try, but evidence is NOT the plural of anecdote.

Furthermore, after a quick google search of the names listed, I was unable to find even a single anecdote which showed an unequivocal conversion from homosexual to heterosexual. I'm curious - was this a paralogism, or a poor attempt at a sophism?

"The very act of attempting to normalise the abnormal will ensure that immature experimenters will become caught up in an... unhealthy lifestyle."
-Proxy

A classic non-sequitur: the conclusion (that otherwise straight kids will turn gay) does not follow logically from the premise (that other peoples' support for SSM will cause this radical shift in sexuality). To be charitable, I will temporarily afford this non-sequitur the status of enthymeme: an argument which requires at least one additional premise to be considered valid.

I eagerly await your missing premise(s).

"This is evidenced by the above-named, who tell of this very phenomenon."
-Proxy

Now, what did I just say about evidence vs. anecdotes? You can't see it, but I'm rolling my eyes.

"an unnatural... lifestyle."
-Proxy

Incorrect. Homosexuality is an entirely natural phenomenon. Even if it weren't, does it really matter? Botulism, stillbirth, earthquakes, deadly nightshade and bowel cancer are all entirely natural phenomena. On the other hand, penicillin, computers and books are all unnatural phenomena. It should be apparent to all but the hard-of-thinking that 'naturalness'/lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever on whether something is good or bad. Once again, I'm curious - paralogism or sophism?

"Let's follow your flawed logic.
Incestuous couples are human beings..."
-Proxy

Ooh, I already know this one! It's a red herring.

Go back and read what I've said to Al about red herrings, then come back when you think you can formulate a decent response without recourse to fallacious arguments.

<<What would you say to them, let’s say, in a fifteen minute speech promoting your minority view.>>
What a bizarre little world you live in.
When you think that homosexuals are opposed by the majority you disparage the majority view.
When you think, based on biased data, that homosexuals are supported by the majority, "minority view" becomes a pejorative.
Why don't you just be honest and say that yours is the correct viewpoint whether or not the majority agrees with it.
What has atheism got to do with homosexuality anyway?

<<Nice try, but evidence is NOT the plural of anecdote>>
In other words, it doesn't matter how many ex-homosexuals come out to publicly warn of the dangers of the homosexual life-style, they don't exist because they refute your lie.

<<Homosexuality is an entirely natural phenomenon. Even if it weren't, does it really matter? Botulism, stillbirth, earthquakes, deadly nightshade and bowel cancer are all entirely natural phenomena. >>
Paedophiles have a very high rate of recidivism. Many claim it is who they are.
Fritzl said he was born to rape.
Are paedophilia and incestuous rape entirely natural phenomenon too?
Or are you merely saying that homosexuality is as natural as disease?

Proxy,

So you wouldn’t face to face with people who are in the sights of you bigotry.

Thought so. That why I asked the question.

‘What has Atheism to do with homosexuality?’ Simply that the main antagonists supporting homophobia are the religious. It’s just logic, try it some time.

David

Oh pet, have we upset you? Be careful now - you know you get over-excited at the sight of a bit of upfront ho-mo-sexuality: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3665#88901

> > You might salvage a shred of your personal credibility if you went public

This is a discussion about the civil rights of same-sex couples, and on that I'm very public, as you know: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3665#88509 The remaining content of your post is simply an attempt to derail the discussion with off-topic straw issues.

> > What would you say to them, let’s say, in a fifteen minute speech promoting your minority view.

David, this is an excellent question, and one I put to Proxy in a slightly different form five months ago: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3611#86544 I'm still waiting for an answer.

Proxy's is indeed a minority view. The Australia Institute's 2005 study showed that 35% of Australians think that homosexuality is immoral, a percentage that is likely to have gone down considerably since the data was gathered in 2003-2004 http://www.tai.org.au/documents/downloads/WP79.pdf Still, in our pluralist society, it would be useful to know to what extent Proxy's view is indeed a proxy for this minority. Do the 35% agree with him that gays should be forced back into the closet? Or is their view a little less extreme? The answers to these questions are needed to guide educators and policy-makers.

You’re right that Proxy’s view is associated with religious belief - indeed the two most public agitators against the rights of same-sex couples in Australia are fundamentalist christians. They present secular arguments, but their arguments are often dismissed as dogma. There’s a gap in the market, so to speak, for an informed non-religious opponent. Even though he’s clearly well-informed, here on OLO Proxy is widely ignored as an anonymous ratbag. He would be a much more effective proponent of his views if he came out from behind his shield of anonymity.

"In other words, it doesn't matter how many ex-homosexuals come out to publicly warn of the dangers of the homosexual life-style, they don't exist because they refute your lie."
-Proxy

Not at all. But anecdote is never an acceptable substitute for evidence. It meets about the same standard of proof as that time-honoured justification for false beliefs, 'what some bloke down the pub told me'. Which is an acceptable standard of proof when you're talking toot with your mates, but not when you're engaging in rational argument.

If there are so many ex-homosexuals out there, there is nothing stopping psychologists from designing a sound experiment, getting a research grant, and gathering some evidence. It is, after all, their job, and there are lot of researchers studying human sexuality. So furnish me with some evidence - not some anecdotes - and I'll be happy to discuss that.

"Are paedophilia and incestuous rape entirely natural phenomenon too?"
-Proxy

Sadly, yes. But cheer up, it's not all botulism and earthquakes and rape. Puppy dogs, rainbows, wildflowers, the beach on a hot summer's day and the view from the top of Kanangra Walls are entirely natural phenomena too. Once again for the hard-of-thinking: 'naturalness'/lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever on whether something is good or bad. Trying to argue that homosexuality is wrong 'coz it's natural and so is rape isn't any more valid than your last position, that homosexuality was wrong because it was unnatural. Talk about indecisive... not that I mind, as I do so enjoy watching you squirm.

"Or are you merely saying that homosexuality is as natural as disease?"
-Proxy

Yes... but I'm also saying that it's as natural as puppy dogs, rainbows, wildflowers, the beach on a hot summer's day and the view from the top of Kanangra Walls. And more natural than penicillin, computers and books.

"It’s just logic, try it some time."
-Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc

Ha! That'll be the day.