Dan S de M

Arguing for Intelligent Design is like arguing for a flat earth. It is ridiculous.

As Pericles so aptly pointed out, fundamentalist Christian belief has the hallmarks of a sideshow entertainment.

Even the majority of other Christians understand the basis for evolution and, as you have witnessed here, regard you as "simple". Squeers has provided link to just a couple of George's posts attesting to this condescending attitude held by so-called sophisticated Christians.

I and other atheists would not give a toss, if not for that fact that you attempt to infiltrate the minds of our children with your superstitious rubbish. It is one thing to believe in a religion, but to enforce it on others is an abrogation of the right to freedom of thought.

Dear OUG,
thanks for the reply, and for being easier to follow this time.
I had no idea you had a literary turn of mind. Magical realism attempts to disrupt the conventional realism of this world that we have so much trouble seeing beyond---not to the "next" world or existence, but to how this world might be different than it is. Ours is a reified reality of monstrous proportions, such that we cannot conceive its being any other way. Magical realism offers temporary release, escapism, a "door in the wall" rather than anything reformist or subversive. "Bartleby the Scrivener" is early magical realism, bordering on the subversive in that it disrupts reality "without" opening onto gorgeous vistas like Wells's fantasy, or onto moralistic ones like Swedenborg's. Clearly you are under the spell of the latter's alternative reality, with his heavenly circles and regions of Hell, into which we cast "ourselves" according to our innermost beings.
This is little different to other religions except it ingeniously absolves God of complicity in our individual fates, resolving the conundrum of God's absolute love and mercy and the viciousness our lives fall into. A celestial super-ego to affright us!
But in fact it resolves nothing and "free will" remains utterly contingent.
And while this may have been Swedenborg's epiphany, and may indeed be your own, no amount of compassionate head-shaking or sanctimonious condescension makes the rest of us blameworthy for our under-privileged ignorance. There is nothing to support or excuse yours or Swedenborg's contentions (except perhaps too much Dante!) and no reason to view your conception as anything more than a psychological device, or as a retreat from reality. Your incredible beliefs do nothing to subvert or transcend the evils of this world, and so amount to an exotic quietism--magical realism--escapism.
I'm sorry, but in the absence of your ever presenting "any" evidence or compelling logic behind your contentions, I can only view your posts as "fabulations".

Dear Dan,

From your perspective can Christian scrupture be scientifically and/or historically inaccurate, yet still represent divine relevation?

Hi again Dan,

Sorry I missed your ealier post.

Regarding: "Does god exist? and "Does existence require God?":

There is a difference between these two questions. The former asks about the existence of a transendential entity. The latter asks whether an explanation of the temporal universe requires God in the equation: If the laws of existence were very well-known, without reaching beyond the bounds of the system, we undertstand the system, stop. Why is an extension into the metaphysical or supernatural necessary? Any notion about the existence of a sumpreme enity would be outside of the explained universe, and, therefore, imaginery or beyond our comprehension.

If we can understand the physical universe but cannot know an existant God (not scriptural) or the entity we call "God" is cultural-
historical. Why should we endeavour to know the unknowable or believe the contrived, respectively.

If one assumes that multifarious religions are not contrived, then the proposition must be tested against the anthropological sciences and the like, because the foundations are historical. If there is an a-historical God (not scriptural) and that God is supernatural, said God, is infinitely elusive to our means of knowing: We can know how the universe exists, but not know that God. And who might that God be, someone in a lab coat running a siumlation from another of reality ? - we just cannot know. Any frame or name one gives such a god is a conjecture made with zero knowledge of the supernatural, if there is a supernatural.

squeers/quote..<<in the absence/of your ever..presenting.."any"..evidence/or compelling logic/behind your contentions,/I can only view/your posts as.."fabulations".>>you are free/to do-so....i have put up/links...none have/been..refuted/nor rebutted

<<Magical-realism/attempts to disrupt..the conventional-realism/of this world/that we have..so much..trouble seeing beyond>>.there is no such/thing as magic...the oppisite of magic/is not conventional

to the contrary...everday there are miracles..
for those/with eyes to see..all it takes is awarness/to the miraculous..not majic

<<the.."next"..world or existence,/but to how/this world..might be different than it is.>>.as you would know its much the same...death dosnt change the loves/hates..we have here[we can only produce that our tiny minds can concieve

<<Ours>>the royal..'we'/ours...[or you/me]..ours>...<<is a reified/reality..of monstrous-proportions,>>you/..may..'regard/or treat..(an abstraction)..as if it/had..concrete/or material existence.'..but the reality/in the world...is beyond your reificacation

your reified/reality..of monsterous proportions..<<..such that we/YOU..cannot conceive/its being any other way.>>>lol

<<Magical realism offers..>>YOU..<<temporary release,/escapism,..a "door in the wall"/rather than anything reformist or subversive.>>but your reality[reified or not]...dosnt dain to determine mine

swedenberg..<<Clearly/you are under..the spell of,,the latter's alternative reality,>>>dont assume...he was only one of my many guides

<<with his heavenly circles/and regions of Hell,..into which we cast.."ourselves"..according to/our innermost beings.>>>well you got that right..well gotten

<<This is little different/to other religions>>>not so..swedenberg was the first..but since then i have found at least ten others..of like reification...your reification..is identical to your dorkins god-head..but we each have our abstractions..we regard as true

<<it ingeniously absolves/God of complicity..in our individual fates>>>yes it does absolve the pure/living/loving good,..but who would dare/cast..the first-stone/at him who alone...loves all living

<<resolving/the conundrum..of God's absolute love/and mercy>>right so far..then throw-in the delusion..<<and the viciousness our lives fall into.>>>is not his causing/but our own

<<A celestial/super-ego to affright us!>>>how can you get a lot/so correct..then lapse back to the insane...if god were a woumb/please explain how the woumb...could concieve murder...to even think the all living/all loving..can concieve/murder...its so sad my brrr-other

<<it resolves nothing>>>of course not when you twist it so awry

<<and.."free will"..remains utterly contingent.>>>on the things we chose/CHOSE to love/hate/ignore or attend to

<<no amount/of compassionate head-shaking..or sanctimonious condescension..makes the rest of us blameworthy..for our under-privileged ignorance.>>>i did not say that

i would say we are ALL born in a state of grace
and to retain the inherant grace..is as simple as giving it to others

and wether we do...or wether we dont
god loves us/not any more..nor any less
he loves us all equally...wether we chose to be ignorant...or not

<<There is nothing/to support..or excuse yours/or Swedenborg's contentions>>>oh dear...squeer..have you missed the many links[is your life so barren/you think that god is hate?

no/reason..<<your conception..as anything more/than..a psychological device,..or as/a retreat from reality.>>what has my peace of mind/to do with your diss-ease of heart?

<<Your incredible/beliefs..do nothing to subvert/or transcend..the evils of this world,>>>where you see a vile/world..i see only gods good/under it all

<<an exotic quietism-/-magical realism-/-escapism.>>why should this concern/you..god gave us/each...our own lives oppertuinities...what have you/made of yours

<<Arguing for Intelligent/Design..is like arguing/for a flat earth.>>they are nothing the same...till we developed math...they presumed...the earth was flat....[THEY+the science/peers of the time]

the same pers now pushing the DELUSION..of species/mutating..out of their genus...FOR WHICH NOT ONE SHED/OF EVIDENCE has been presented/proved...

UNTILL IT CAN BE REPLICATED..or witnessed..the laws of genetic/inheritance hold firm...

only a fool/could say/It is ridiculous....UNLESS..they could replicate it..or validate it...which NO_ONE HAS

make first one like it..!

or name the first...living that evolved
dont speculate...IF YOU HAVE SCIENCE PROOF/..present it

<<Even/the majority..of other Christians/understand the basis for evolution>>>LOL>>your high proof..is those thinking man=god?

how despirite you are
just because they been decieved..[by your own measure]
is no reason they havnt been decieved..yet again
just like they believed the earth was flat
just like they believed..the earth to be the centre of creation

how gullible..the blind leading the blind

or what/worse...one claiming science/
quoting the dis-beliefs..of believers/decieved..YET AGAIN

if they or you have the SCIENCE/FACT..present it
or better make your own life/and evolve that..

if you cant..thats ok..science cant either..!