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The Forum > Article Comments > Religion and science: respecting the differences > Comments

Religion and science: respecting the differences : Comments

By Michael Zimmerman, published 31/5/2010

The teachings of most mainstream religions are consistent with evolution.

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Dear Dan,

"Perhaps we can retrace a steady progress in scientific advancement rather than seeing large peaks and troughs."

I give credit where it is due. Yet, the phenomena of "peaks and troughs" has been studied. In its twilight centuries Rome lost much knowledge about how to match cintemplation to techique, because Attic Greek was lost, as a languange used by the learned. With regards buildings, architechs in Western Europe has to travel to study the ruins in Rome and Greece age, to see how large buildings were constructed. The prior knowledge was lost.

I agree somewhat with what you say about the Enlightenment, to the extent, that the pull away from the power of the State and Church in the West occurred earlier than the break: the Magna Carta, for instance. Where the West's line of progress depart rapidly is with the Great Divergence (c. 1760), when the rediscovered Greek philosophies and contemplations allowed (sciencific) forethought to applied to techniques. What the Enlightenment brought was a break away from conventional orthodoxy in the West. By way of comparison, China, moved pretty much, as you described, with smooth and steady progress.

Engaging the challenge of a too be redefined future will carry a civilization foreward in a manner that an overt fixation on the past shall not.

Herein, I agree with George (if I am presently him correctly), that Christians needs to look beyoond the "God of the Gaps" and accept that scriptures are not science texts. By engaging modern science with ancient sciptures, religion is setting-up a house of cards to fall, for latter. An illogical approach for a believer, because the revered message is lost as the cards fall. And they continue to fall each day.

The hypothesis of a creation agent (George's +1) as an alternative to an ulitimate physical understanding is more rationale, given what we already about anthropology, cosmology and quantum mechanics. The catch is some the +1 beyond science's explanations is that the spiritual is amorphous. Herein, have "a state of mind" vs. demonstrable evidence.

- How old is the universe?
Posted by Oliver, Thursday, 16 September 2010 9:07:59 AM
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Dear Dan,

I just saw your response to my age of the universe question. Thanks.

My undstanding is the debate between the BB and solidate state universe was resolved with discovery of the "predicted" background.

The sun is a star in the sky to someone on an extra-solar planet. How long ago did light we see today leave the star, Surius?
Posted by Oliver, Thursday, 16 September 2010 9:15:45 AM
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Dan,

You don't "think" it has been particularly compelling? On what do you base this? Your ignorance of biology? Your ignorance of genetics? Your ignorance of even the simplest of probabilistic thought experiments? Your ignorance of geology? Your ignorance of paleontology? You suggest that *your* judgement has any relevance?Espcially when you make a point of *not* acknowledging information outside your carefully doctored reading list?

Do you presume so when teaching children?

Do you so assume when translating texts the same cavalier disdain for the author that you show for Sagan?

Musch earlier you exalted that that some religious claims might be "falsifiable in principle".

Well, as a working scientist, falsifiable in practice is the thing, and we do it daily. *you* get off your arse, and deliver a hypothesis that is falsifiable in practice, get funding and do a credible test. If you're not *trying* your christian best to *disprove* "god" in practice and principle, then you are lazy.

Heritable variability is falsifiable. Natural selection and artificial selection of heritable variability is falsifiable. Examination of fossils is falsifiable. The nested nature of critical anatomical features in living and fossil organisms is falsifiable. The nested nature of sequence and chromosome features of DNA from living organisms and recent fossils is falsifiable. The geological column is falsifiable. Radiodating is falsifiable.

And despite being falsifiable, thousands of efforts have them to be not false and very useful.

Historical events are routinely examined in court, and the findings are both scientific and falsifiable. The aim is to get information, not pretend it isn't there.

You've not observed the data. You've not honestly quoted the only source you mention.

Weak. Weak as piss, Dan.

All to present a case that is not true. Do You publish trnslations so piss-poor? Do you employers *let* you?

Oh, and don't expect an honest answer from Dan about cosmic background radiation. Not understanding the theoretical inportance, he won't find it "compelling".

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Thursday, 16 September 2010 7:20:14 PM
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I'm going to out myself.

I do not respect religious fundamentalists for taking the bible literally and teaching crap to children such as being born sinners and trying to force everyone to live like they do.

However, I have even less respect for the 'moderate' religious - taking all the 'nice' bits, the 'good 'bits', you know "sermon on the mount" and pretending the bad stuff like executing people for eating shellfish or wearing wool AND cotton, or not suffering single women (AKA witches) to live - leaving out that part of the Holy books and still trying to say that what they have left is something really worthy and important? No, its not, it is a load of B/S. Because all the 'good' stuff was around BEFORE the OT, the NT, the Koran, the Torah was written.

Either believe in the Bible or don't. At least the extremists are a little more honest than the moderates. Not by much, lying to children is the most heinous thing a person can do.
Posted by Severin, Thursday, 16 September 2010 9:26:13 PM
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lets/egsamin..rusties..proof..bit-by-bit..lol

<<compelling>>..?...NO..!

<<On/what..do-you..base-this?>>

the clear-lack..of evidence...
[relitive..to the main-claim..macro-evolution]...there..isnt..any

<<Your-ignorance/biology?..Your/ignorance..genetics?>>

NO..YOURS
you make..faulse-claims..
based/on the..specious..species[micro-evolution]
then/claim..its proof..of marc-evolution..for which...none-egsists

<<Your-ignorance/probabilistic..thought experiments?>>
mendelic-ratios..[can you/use..the right-words]

REVEAL..where..mendelic-ratios..
allow for mution/..exta-[out/of]..genus..genious

<<Your..ignorance/geology?>>
no...yours...
rocks..got...no/dna
thus only pheno-typ-ical..not..geno-typical
[looks/like..is ..a lie]

<<Your-ignorance/paleontology?>>
REVEAL..specific/details..
not-just..name..areas

<<You..suggest..*your*/judgement..has/any-relevance?>>
no..

you/feel..
your destractions/redirections
in lue..of faulsifyable/fact..prove..anything?

<<you make/a point..of..*not*/acknowledging-information>>
you refuse..to present...any[just..insult/attack..in lue-of/fact

<<your carefully/doctored..reading-list?>>
your..clear/lack..of evi-dense

<<Do/you..presume so..when teaching-children?>>
DO-you?

<<as/a..working-scientist,>>>professing..lies..
[based on/the..same spin..for money..?]

<<falsifiable in/practice>>
..of species[micro-evolving..in..a lab
isnt..nature-selecting..new genus]

all..evolution..is micro-evolution..WITHIN..its species/genus

<<we do/it daily>>>for..$$
breeding..the same..things
getting the same..mutated...'thing'..you began..with

<<get funding/and..do a credible-test.>>

there..is..the-joke
you..dont..fund..anything..
that would..disproive..the franchise..[delusion]

<<If/you're-not..*trying*..your christian-best..to..*disprove*.."god" in/practice and principle,..then you-are lazy.>>

even..you/lot..cant..do..this

you dont get..blind-faith..
despite..living..it..everyday...lol

<<Heritable-variability..is falsifiable.>>>only..within*..its..breed-able.genus*

<<Natural-selection>>WITHIN/SPECIES
<<artificial..selection>>WITHIN..species

<<heritable-variability..is falsifiable.>>
only..WITHIN..its/OWN-species..within..its own..genus

<<Examination..of fossils/is falsifiable>>
no...egsamination..is..opinion
the fossil..is faulsifyable..ONLY-if..
there are..many/or..complete.

opinions..derived,..from/fossils...
need..other/fossils/opinions..to solidify/theory..
then..be able..to be proved

[not just sold/as-fact..lol]..via..media

or..pr-o/fessing..pro/fee-sours
Posted by one under god, Friday, 17 September 2010 9:17:51 AM
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setrven..quote...<<I do/not..respect religious..fundamentalists>>

he..me/either
but worse..the braggarts..claiming science..fact
while only selling a theory

<<for/taking..the bible/literally>>
for..taking..evolution..out/of..genus..as fact
when clearly..all the species/infor-presented..reveal..its fiction

we can/agree..<<and teaching..crap-to children>>
yes..for decievers..there is a true..decieving-hell
decieving..children..away,,from/love..is the worst-crime

to steal..via a lie..deciet/lie/deliberated..ommision

yes....i..feel/sorry..for..the..[pro-fessors/pro-pasters]
..selling-out..[their soul]....for..mere-money/fame/gain

<<being born-sinners>>is totally..true
to get here..we must..either..fall..from heaven
or rise-up..via hell

but..so..too..is not telling..us-all
we-are/..all forgiven..have an eternity..
of grace/mercy..love..before us..simply by loving..neighbour

<<force everyone..to live-like..they do>>
or worse..believe/think..as they..wrongly..do..

sadly..serven..dont get grace/mercy..thing..
is dependant..on activly..repenting.

how..to convince..him/her..that god..is good
god..is love..but..that NOT GOOD..is not OF god

the nice-bits..are possable..for all
POSSABLE..when they change..their injurous-ways

for many..after centuries..millenia..od self-induuced delusion/suffering..by thier..own love-of vile

<<the extremists..are a little-more..honest/than the moderates.>>

sadly..if only..you/knew..what you were/are..saying

think..bro/sis..the horror..STILL/continues..EVEN-now..in hell..as we speak...[worse..by even thinking..of that..viletime..you give..them hope..feed..their returning..[ok their hope..to return]..they cant return..unless we allow/them..to use our bodies.,.or mind

but you in your ignorances..have no idea,..of the vile..you just may sek/to unleash...[why you think..i give a toss..what you believe..in evolutionary lies]..

because from this..and from the lie..of a judgment-day..lies hell.l..onm earth...because all them lies have made..the good/gifts..of god..into a threat.burden..and we see how that went...last-time

<<lying to/children..is the/most heinous-thing..a person can do.>>i agree..fully..thus i war..on all/forms..or erant..BELIEF

KNOW THE FACTS
dont get sukked..in by pretenders..who cant prove..their theory

all is faith..
and as long as your faith..is in love..evil..cany hurt-you

thus thwey first..removegod[love/truth/life-logic]light
and then fill-your minds with hate[via the media/programing]..or hairy-porter..go watch the abc..childrens programing..its insane

<<You don't "think">>>full-stop

<<it has-been..particularly-compelling>>
think..who/why..needs to compel[force..a lie..to seem true?]

<<On/what..do you base-this?>>
switch..on your tv
how-come..every show..is wether cops/robbers/sport/food-based

even see..quantum..is one of the few..real science programs
yet last nioght revieuwed ..its many lies

<<ignorance of-biology>>
as they..dont..seek to faulsify[proove]..the science

<<Your ignorance/of genetics>>
has been continually revealed..through-out this topic

You suggest/that..*your*..judgement..has any relevance!

Espcially when/you make a point..of/*not* acknowledging..information outside your carefully..doctored reading-list!

All to..present/a case-THEORY..that is-not true.

Not understanding..the
theoretical importance,

rusty/seiveren..won't find it.."compelling""

but so/what...
tell-them..GIVE-fact..not opinion
Posted by one under god, Friday, 17 September 2010 9:47:53 AM
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