Congratulations, David Singer. This article has reached a higher level of lily-gilding than the last one and perhaps almost achieves Academy Award status.

Where is the Israel you are talking about? On the site of Palestine there does exist a nation that is also called Israel. It's main achievements have included the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people for sixty years. This nation has excelled at land-stealing, home demolitions, genocide, duplicity and cruelty. It has, by stealth, got nuclear weapons which it has threatened to use on its neighbors if necessary.

This Israel, a rogue State, has engaged in continual talks with the Palestinians about their State while never intending to grant them one. Its snipers have shot Palestinian children and journalists and one of its bulldozers even ran down and killed an American peace activist.

Currently it has Gaza under total siege and is allowing the people there to starve while they live in the ruins of their homes which Israeli bombs and missiles destroyed the Xmas before last.

Please tell me where this ideal, innocuous Israel is, the one you are talking about in this article.

Or does it exist only in the dark confines of your mind?

David,
I hope you are better at arguing your cases than the myopic pro Israel propaganda you espouse here.

I have no idea why Graham publishes your writings on this topic.

I too would be more impressed by the achievements of Israel if they were not so tainted by ongoing murderous behaviour. Not just the CIA and Mossad, but continuous overt aggression on many fronts.
Both the US and Israel need to pull their heads in. I can already hear the cries of "why us" when the inevitable retaliation occurs.

Well well well....there we have DAVID G or should it read 'Herr Himmler'

You said:

This nation has excelled at land-stealing, home demolitions, genocide, duplicity and cruelty.

I was quite stunned reading that, because I was under the impression that it was a description of how the Israelites LOST the land originally in AD 70 then 132 then the remaining remnant lost more with the invasions of Umar in th 7th century...

I suppose after a while 'stolen' land and 'dispossession' can be forgoten by those who only look at a narrow but recent window of history through blatant (not even disguised) anti semitic binoculars..and who don't even comment on the documents Singer refered to. Well.. I suppose documentary evidence is nothing to a hammer.. after all.. isn't everything a nail to it ? :)

This is most strange when every person named Levi and Cohen can trace their biological connection to Aaron the brother of Moses.
If ur a Jew...I guess you just have to accept that you are eternally 'cursed' to live in other lands and experience pogroms at the hands of people like David G

Or.. you might even meet delightful ladies like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibr0wGEpzlQ&feature=related

What was it she said ? "SUPPORT"...but hey..it's just a word.. what does that matter?

ALGOREisRICH, you may want to spend your time thinking about what happened thousands of years ago in the Middle East but most intelligent people are more interested in what is happening in the world currently and what may happen in the future.

And, because of the Jews in Israel, this future could involve a nuclear war, one that could destroy our world. Anyway, who gives a stuff if someone can trace their ancestry back to Roman times? Big deal! If you went back even further, your ancestors were living in trees and, before that, in the ocean.

Time for you to join the real world rather than live in the past!

Dear David
is not the issue here 'which' past ? who deterimines the window of time..this not easy. Most people (it seems you are one) tend to choose the point in time which suits their particular perspective on the situation.. let's face it..I do it too right ?

So..in the end.. it's probably better to let the Israelies and Arabs sort it out themselves.

If you are so concnerned with 'recent past wrongs'.. I assume ur selling your house and land and donating it to the indigenous rehabiltiation fund ?

Let's get real here David.. "status quo's" ..dare I say ALL of them, are ultimately established by power.. correct ?

It never ceases to amaze me how excited Westerners can be over something in the Middle east. as though it is going to effect them in the next 5 minutes.

You raise the real concern of 'Nuclear War' but again..we need a reality check. The only nation which need fear such an attack is the one of whom the leader of Iran said "It should be blotted off the map"
If he ever tried it he would lose much more than Israel would I suspect.. I doubt he would because he would wipe out the Arabs also.. most unlikely I guess. Unless he's done his sums about how much of Israel you could leave as a radioactive wasteland and not impact on those he is trying to 'save'.

I'm sure you are well meaning and feel you need to express something to soothe your moral outrage...as we all do at times. But really.. I don't think there is much we can do on OLO to suddenly fix it..
do you ?
Most of us just end up letting off pent up steam...either the 'whack-a-jew' kind or 'whack an Arab'.

Maybe we should just 'whack-ourselves' :)

# David G

Funny that 31 of the worlds' most developed nations don't share your view.

Have you ever stopped to think perhaps it is you that has a warped view of the Jewish State whose medical, scientific and technological achievements in the face of constant threats to its very existence should be admired and acclaimed - if only grudgingly by carpers like you.

Thank you for almost offering me the Academy Award. I must decline but would suggest that Israel is a worthy recipient.

# examinator

My myopia is apparently shared by the OECD. I am indeed in good company.

Your suggestion that OLO not publish my writings is a pathetic attempt to repress the freedom of speech. Have you suggested the same treatment for the many posters whose hate ridden and abusive personal comments come hot on the publication of my articles.

Shame on you.

#ozandy

David G's little sir echo? Read my above reply to David G. It applies equally to you.

# ALGOREisRICH

It is not very often that anyone posts in my defence. Thank you

David Singer, Israel indeed deserves an Academy Award. In the horror section.

It's funny how you never admit that Israel has major shortcomings, ones that have been condemned time and time again by the U.N. but vetoed constantly by the U.S. which is another warmongering imperial power.

Perhaps that's why, in desperation, you have to grossly inflate Israel's few achievements. What were they again? Stealing land, genocide, shooting Palestinian children, house demolitions...

DAvid G

you are manifesting the symptoms of a classic left winger :) sorry...

You refer to umpteen 'resolutions' but not to the make up of voting nations or blocs such as he OIC which promoted them or who voted for what.. etc..which is more telling.

You and I both know that the UN is just a forum for vested interests and that 'votes' are used as chunks of 2x4 against political enemies.

Please don't insult us by suggesting otherwise.

Only one who is not widely read or accurately informed would fall for your 'Oscar' performance. *wave*

This is good news David. But it does not begin to describe the magnitude of Israel's achievements in sci-tech.

Shanghai Jiao Tong University's Academic Ranking of World Universities (ARWU) is the most widely cited global ranking of universities. It ranks the top 500 universities (top 3%) in the world. Merely getting into the rankings is an achievement. Israel has SEVEN ranked universities. The Arab world, with 45 times Israel's population, has just one in Saudi Arabia. The University of Tehran is also ranked. (Australia has 17)

Israel's focus on science and technology started in earnest in 1967. The country's success owes much to Sam Rothberg. See:

http://www.chicagojewishnews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=619

I wish Australia had a Sam Rothberg.

71 Israeli companies are listed on NASDAQ.

See:

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10004428.shtml

Quote:

"Israel is second to America in the number of companies listed on NASDAQ, and the Economist magazine says that the country attracts twice the number of venture-capital (VC) investments as the whole of Europe, .,…. In 2003, 55% of Israel 's exports were high technology, compared with the OECD average of 26%. Tech giants such as IBM, Motorola and Cisco have research centres in Israel , which is also where Intel developed its Centrino chip."

In terms of science citations in physics Israel comes second only to Switzerland on a per capita basis.

See:
http://www.china-profile.com/data/tab_citations_2a.htm

Israel outperforms Australia by more than three to one.

Hebrew University tied with Oxford in the number of European research grants in 2008-09.

See:

http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=65744&CultureCode=en

And other Israeli universities were no slouches either.

When it comes to Israel's achievements in sci-tech it is hard to refrain from using superlatives. For example, in terms of patents per capital Israel ranks within the top 7 in the world. In terms of R & D expenditure as a percentage of GDP Israel is number one by a wide margin.

See also this piece by Farrukh Saleem

http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000326.html

There is a lesson here for Australia. Being a small country does not preclude you becoming a technology giant.

NB: Following my usual policy I shall not respond to attacks on Israel.

Is ALGOREisRICH referring to how Romans kicked the Jews out of what had been, up until that time, their homeland? It's always puzzled me why the Romans did that. They did not have a history of kicking other nations from their homelands. What was it that the Jews did to deserve such treatment?

In a nation of millions of people there are is bound to be some good things happening. Unfortunately, in the case of Israel, their bad behaviour overwhelms the good. For this is the Israel that, by its presence and arrogant behaviour, causes more trouble in the middle east than any other country; the only one in the region to have nuclear weapons; the one which consistently defies UN resolutions, mistreats and murders its Palestinian neighbours, refuses to stay within the boundaries the UN set when it over-generously gave away Arab land for the very establishment of Israel. This is the Israel that sends its secret service to assassinate its enemies abroad, the Israel that tried to sink a USA navy ship (see http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html ), the one that has frustrated US and UN attempts to bring peace to the middle east over at least 40 years.

I can't be sure whether Israel actually controls the government of the USA, or whether the USA government is just incredibly stupid. Only last week their president Obama was urging them to give $205million to Israel so that Israel can speed up development of an anti-missile defense system. The $205million is in addition to annual US assistance to Israel. According to the US state department, US military aid to Israel in 2009 totalled $2.55bn.

Those who advocate letting the Israelis and Arabs settle their differences by themselves need to find some way of removing all the USA aid given to Israel throughout the years of Israel's existence. Otherwise the contest would not be fair... in fact, I suggest it would have been settled long ago.

Dear Forkes,
The reason the Romans kicked the Jews out is because they rebelled against high taxes and slavery imposed by the Roman empire.
Big government. If you have the power you make the rules for your benefit off cause. Seems to me that argument is still taking place in Australia. Public masters as opposed to public service. If you have the power you make the rules called coruption or BIG GOVERNMENT.

Just a correction regarding historical facts, I can't see why this should make any difference, but here's my 2-cents:

The Romans did not expel the Jews from Israel - only from the city of Jerusalem.

Most Jews stayed on their land and actually, modern research indicates that most of the current "Palestinians" are in fact ex-Jews who chose to convert to Islam in order to avoid the high tax imposed on non-muslims.

Hi Yuyutsu
that was a helpful additional chunk of information.. I suppose I was operating in "kill the head the body dies" mode re the Romans exiling the Jews. Yep..it was just "Jerusalem" in the main (at first)....but it did get worse for them... I'll cut and paste a wiki article which fleshes this out a bit.

It actually sounds much like David G's comments except now the bad guys /Romans are the Jews and not the Romans in David G's version of modern history.

ROME and the DESTRUCTION OF JEWISH STATE..THE FINAL OUTCOME

The complete destruction of Jerusalem, and the settlement of several Greek and Roman colonies in Judea indicated the express intention of the Roman government to prevent the political regeneration of the Jewish nation. Nevertheless, forty years later the Jews put forth efforts to recover their former freedom. With Israel exhausted, they strove to establish commonwealths on the ruins of Hellenism in Cyrene, Cyprus, Egypt, and Mesopotamia. These efforts, resolute but unwise, were suppressed by Trajan (115-117), and under Hadrian the same fate befell the attempt of the Jews of Israel to regain their independence (133-135). From this time on, in spite of unimportant movements under Antoninus, Marcus Aurelius, and Severus, the Jews of Palestine, reduced in numbers, destitute, and crushed, lost their preponderance in the Jewish world

FORKES.. I loved your most 'balanced' comment here :)

"What was it that the Jews did to deserve such treatment? "

"Unfortunately, in the case of Israel, their bad behaviour overwhelms the good." (aaah.. the sweet scent of impartial commentary :)

"For this is the Israel that, by its presence and arrogant behaviour, causes more trouble in the middle east than any other country;"

NOTE.
Your Balance (FORKES)is only exceeded by you being your arguments own worst enemy.
Cheers.

Too bad, ALGOREisRICH, that you don't like my comments. I was just trying to make it clear that, unlike yourself, I am no apologist for the atrocious behaviour of modern Israel.

David singer,
What a load of nonsense we all know that is a political action instigated by the US.

#stevenlmeyer

Thank you for your excellent contribution. It seems to have shocked the Israel-bashers into complete silence.

# examinator

As usual your claim cannot be tested with any empirical evidence.

Nevertheless accepting what you say at face value - I say good on America. Israel has much to offer the world and is prepared to share the benefits.

I doubt one could really say that about any of the 19 Arab States who continue to refuse to accept one Jewish state in just 0.001% of the
former Ottoman Empire territory captured by France and Great Britain.

Those who support this stance need to take another look at themselves and direct their vitriol and abuse to those who would prefer to see Israel and its achievements for mankind consigned to the dustbin of history.

That anyone would claim that what Israeli Jews do is for mankind is laughable, almost deranged. Jews, as the superior, exalted, self-appointed Children of God, do everything purely for themselves, that and to make money.

You don't believe me? Ask the Palestinians especially the ones living in the ruins of Gaza. They'll give you a clear picture of what Jews are all about!

If you need more info. ask the Lebanese.

What is your contribution to the greater good of mankind David G.

# David G

You state:

"That anyone would claim that what Israeli Jews do is for mankind is laughable, almost deranged. Jews, as the superior, exalted, self-appointed Children of God, do everything purely for themselves, that and to make money."

Thanks for finally exposing yourself as a rabid Jew-hater. It has been a pleasure seeing your raw nerve exposed until you could not contain yourself any longer.

I wonder if you might change your mind if G-d forbid you one day contract any illness where your life could be saved with Israeli technology or medical know how.

Or would you refuse such treatment as a matter of principle?

What interests me is how you came to be such an all encompassing Jew-hater who cannot see any good in at least some Jews. Perhaps you can enlighten me on what happened that brought you to espouse the above views.

David Singer, you ask why I'm not enamored with Israeli Jews who in turn are supported by many Jews world-wide (but thankfully not all).

The answer is simple. I've watched them deliberately crushing the Palestinians for the last decade or more using their free American arms and Apache gunships and tanks and warships. I've watched in horror, footage of IDF brutality, of their deliberate cruelty. I've seen the ultra-othodox Jews standing looking at the carnage being carried out on Gaza as if it were a soccer game. I've seen a Palestinian family picnicking on a beach being blown up.

I've seen the bodies of Palestinian children who had been shot in the head by IDF snipers as they played outside their homes. I've watched the anguish in the faces of Palestinian farmers as their olive groves were bulldozed. I've seen the fear in the faces of Palestinian children as tanks pass their front doors or helicopters circle overhead ready to fire missiles. I've seen Palestinian boys with their legs and/or arms blown off by Israeli missiles and tank shells. I've seen the bulldozing of Palestinian homes as the Israeli government carries out collective punishment.

I saw the deliberate running down of Rachael Correy by an Israeli bulldozer, the shooting of journalists who dared to record Israeli war crimes. I've seen the use of phosphorous shells on Gaza, the taking away of Palestinian men who languish in Israeli jails without trial. I've watched women at Israeli checkpoints who were forced to give birth there because they weren't allowed through. I've watched the building of settlements and concrete walls all over the West Bank, the destruction of Jenin.

I won't list all the things I've seen but there's enough there to give you some idea why I feel the way I do.

By their actions, ye shall know them!

#David G

You state:

"David Singer, you ask why I'm not enamored with Israeli Jews who in turn are supported by many Jews world-wide (but thankfully not all)"

That is not what I asked.

Perhaps you might this time answer what I asked you- which was:

"What interests me is how you came to be such an all encompassing Jew-hater who cannot see any good in at least some Jews.Perhaps you can enlighten me on what happened that brought you to espouse the above views."

Those views expressed by you were clear and unambiguous:

"Jews, as the superior, exalted, self-appointed Children of God, do everything purely for themselves, that and to make money."

Don't try and crawl under a rock. Is this what you believe?

A YES or NO answer is all I require.

Oh dear.
Poor David G. You have fallen into the zionists trap and now he will shrilly denounce you as antisemetic. Your generalisations about jews leaves you open to it. Although I despise the jewish religion and all other religions I have learned that it is unwise to mention jews too often. The best way is to just refer to israel or isrealis or zionists.

Anyway you can just ignore singers question or say it isnt relevant. He does it to me all the time.

Algoreperson

I have said it before The lives of the living take precedence over the dead. What happened 2000 years ago has no bearing on todays situation in the middle east. The living, breathing people of the west bank and gaza did nothing to the jews of jesus day so why should they be punished with expulsion and dispossession? Why cant we go back further to the time of the Canaanites. The Canaanites slaughtered by the jews on their gods orders. One of the most heinous crimes ever committed if you have read your bible. Why isnt it the land of Canaan?

Does this philosophy of yours of recovering peoples ancient homelands extend to the aborigines? Or American Indians? Or any other of the many dispossessed peoples in this world? If not why not? Whats the difference? Maybe you will answer since singer could not.

Oh dear.
Poor Mikk You have fallen into the trap of believing the bible-stories literally.

Recent research indicates that the Canaanites and most of the Israeli tribes (except Levy) are one and the same. The bible portraid wars between the "two" in order to conceal the embarassing facts that Israelis used to worship different gods; did not all come from the same legendary ancesstors; and most of them were not slaves in Egypt or received the Torah on Mt. Sinai.

Sorry to spoil this particular argument of yours.
I do agree with you that the living take precedence over the dead and I wish that both Arabs and Jews were able to accept this principle as well.

It is really hard to do justice to Israel's achievements in sci-tech.

In my previous post on this thread I pointed out that Israel has SEVEN universities within the ARWU Shanghai Jaio Tong University rankings. I deliberately chose a non-US ranking because I don;t think even the most rabid Jew-haters would claim China was in thrall to the Zionists.

AlphaGalileo is a EUROPEAN (NOT AMERICAN) source of news about research. Searching it for the past year, Israel gets 18 hits, Egypt 9, Syria 1 and Saudi Arabia despite its almost limitless financial resources, 1. This is obviously a very rough measure but it does indicate the sort of impact Israel has in the world of research. (Australia gets 39)

One of the hits was to announce the award of the Nobel Prize in chemistry to Venkatraman Ramakrishnan, MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology, Cambridge,United Kingdom, Thomas A. Steitz, Yale University, New Haven, CT, USA and Ada E. Yonath, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel

In 2009 Israel's exports, mostly of high tech equipment, amounted to $44.35 billion. This is greater than the COMBINED exports of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. (See CIA factbook)

(Australian exports: $162 bn. However these are largely commodities. There is little in the way of high tech in Australia's exports)

Right now Israeli President Shimon Peres is in China.

Quote

"Israeli President Shimon Peres met with visiting Chinese Science and Technology Minister Wan Gang on Thursday, and they vowed to enhance bilateral cooperation in science, technology and innovation.

"Sino-Israeli relations have reached remarkable achievements in recent years, Wan said, stressing the technology cooperation between the two countries."

http://china.globaltimes.cn/diplomacy/2010-05/533860.html

Israel also has strong ties with India.

See Israel & India: New Allies

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2008/0321_india_riedel.aspx

India is now Israel's largest arms export market. India has bought Israel's Phalcon AWACS.

Once again note that I shall not respond to Israel / Jew bashers.

FORKESy

You said:

"I am no apologist for the atrocious behaviour of modern Israel".

Ya know....I've never seen a video of Israeli parents and teachers instilling utter hatred into the minds of 3 yr olds.....Telling the poor innocent child that "Joos are evil, animals,apes" ...

Errr..but I have seen numerous vids of Arab children being so indoctrinated and brainwashed by their parents and teachers..who are actually proud of this.

I think you are failing to distinguish, in my position...apologetics for the "existance and security" of the State of Israel on the one hand, and the individual actions of particular people on the other. I've seen things done by Israeli soldiers which are clearly 'evil'.

Perhaps you could let us know your own 'foundation' position please ?

1/ Do you believe Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign state?
2/ Do you believe in a 2 state solution ?
3/ If you do, do you believe the Palestinian state should include East Jerusalem, if so, why?
4/ If not, perhaps you believe in a "one" state solution where both Israelis and Arabs have the same rights ?
5/ If you do believe 4 above, and knowing your history of human nature and politics, do you then believe that there would be a utopian era of peace and tranquility without any racial or religious conflict or at least competition?

May 2009 (PNG)
Four Chinese-owned shops in Goroka were emptied of goods and lost an undisclosed amount of cash early yesterday morning when men, women and children ran amok.
23 May 2009 ... PAPUA New Guinea is reeling from anti-Chinese riots involving tens of thousands of people.

PALESTINE (before Israel existed)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

You might do well to note that this massacre occured (as most do) on the basis of a vicious but unfounded RUMOR.

If it's that easy to trigger communal strife... maybe it's a good idea to keep them separate (and perhaps homogenous?)

David Singer, on my blog I have the following in my sidebar: <b>Argue not with fools, frauds and fanatics. Seek better companions.</b> In entering into dialogue with you I have broken my own compass point and wasted a lot of time.

You, in typical Jewish fashion, have ignored everything I've said about the sixty years of brutality and genocide carried out by the Jewish State of Israel against the Palestinians and pursued your own narrow, fanatical, pro-Jewish agenda.

And now you are arrogantly demanding that I answer your questions which are of the 'have you stopped beating your wife' variety.

With respect, could I suggest that you seek counseling. Your religious addiction is affecting your sanity.

ALGOREisRICH wrote: "Perhaps you could let us know your own 'foundation' position please ?

"1/ Do you believe Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign state?"

Not in its present location, where it has never been wanted by the vast majority of the inhabitants living in the region where Israel was established. For Israel to have a right to exist it must first find a location somewhere in the world where it is welcome, or at least not opposed. Back in the days when Israel was being established some such location could probably have been found, but now, after the world has had 60 years to observe what Israel's inhabitants are like, I would be surprised if it was welcome anywhere.

I believe this answer makes all of ALGOREisRICH's remaining questions irrelevant.

To #mikk

You state:

"Poor David G. You have fallen into the zionists trap and now he will shrilly denounce you as antisemetic. Your generalisations about jews leaves you open to it. Although I despise the jewish religion and all other religions I have learned that it is unwise to mention jews too often. The best way is to just refer to israel or isrealis or zionists."

Mikk - I suspected you were just another Jew hater dressed up as a human rights advocate. Thanks for confirming this for me.

You are entitled to your opinion - no matter how contemptible it might be. Just be honest about it.

Until that kind of blind hatred is eliminated any effort to rationally discuss with you ways of ending the conflict between Jews and Arabs remains a total waste of time.

I won't be responding to any of your comments in future other than to say they are written by a Jew-hater and should be read and understood in that context.

So Forkes, what alternative solution do you have in mind for people who happened to born in Israel? Would such a solution be fair if applied to people who happened to be born in Australia?

Forkes and MIKK, thank heavens there are some people on this thread who can present the truth about Israel in opposition to the ridiculous torrent of 'We Can Do No Wrong' Jewish propaganda.

Singer, in common with his kind, will keep going and going, admitting nothing, twisting and turning, creating straw-men, using red herrings, etc, until he drives everyone crazy. Eventually, sick of his silliness, people stop commenting and he gets centre stage.

We who know the truth about the Palestinians and Israel must not allow this to happen. Israel must be exposed for what it is: a racist, grogue nation that potentially threatens the existence of the world.

"I won't be responding to any of your comments in future other than to say they are written by a Jew-hater and should be read and understood in that context.

Fair enough and I shall just respond to your drivel by saying it is written by a racist, bigoted, zionist, warmongering, dishonest Arab hater.

That should solve all the problems of the middle east.
What a prat!

I will continue to expose you and your people as the murderous religious freaks that are responsible for most of todays conflict and terror.

LOL David Singer

You wrote:

"I won't be responding to any of your [mikk's]comments in future other than to say they are written by a Jew-hater and should be read and understood in that context.

You are obviously taking a leaf from the book of another Jew hater, David G who has the following sidebar on his blog

"Argue not with fools, frauds and fanatics. Seek better companions"

This is one instance where DAVID G and I are at one.

WHICH IS WHY I HAVE A POLICY OF NEVER RESPONDING TO THE POSTS OF JEW HATERS.

May I suggest you do the same David Singer?

Honestly it is not worthwhile getting into any kind of argument with the Jew haters. They are a fact of nature like earthquakes, typhoons and tsunamis. They have to weathered. I once heard them compared to cockroaches but that is unfair to a very useful insect species. Jew haters perform no useful function at all.

ON A MORE POSITIVE NOTE I PICKED up this little gem.

Quote:

"Their revolutionary cane [for the blind] is unlike current forward infrared signal canes. Their cane has a “seeing sensor” below. The sensor beeps as surfaces change, near stairs, holes or water. The sensor can detect changes up to 30 inches away providing amble [sic. Is this a pun?]warning."

Is this another triumph for Israeli sci-tech?

Actually it is the invention of THREE PALESTINIAN GIRLS, Aseel Abu Aleil, Aseel Alshaar, and Noor Alarada.

See:

http://worldnewsvine.com/2010/05/silicon-valley-science-prize-goes-to-three-palestinian-girls/

Message to Palestinians:

Maybe this is a better approach to your situation than suicide bombing or lobbing rockets and mortars at civilians. Compete with Israel in science and technology. The country needs a bit of Middle-Eastern competition.

"Message to Palestinians:

Maybe this is a better approach to your situation than suicide bombing or lobbing rockets and mortars at civilians. Compete with Israel in science and technology. The country needs a bit of Middle-Eastern competition."

This piece of 'intelligent' commentary was posted by someone calling himself Stevenimeyer. What he is urging is that the Palestinians set up high-tech industries, ones that can compete with Israel.

Perhaps he doesn't know that Israel has the Palestinians under occupation and has done so for sixty years. Perhaps he doesn't know that the Israelis keep the Palestinians at poverty level and steal their taxes. Perhaps he doesn't know that Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are living in the ruins of their homes while the Palestinians in the West Bank are being evicted from their homes to make way for Jewish settlers. Perhaps he doesn't know that the unemployment rate in the West Bank is high while employment in the Gaza Strip which is under siege is virtually non-existent.

This stevenimeyer person, obviously a man of profound ignorance, then urges the poverty-stricken Palestinians to set up high-tech industries. It's like urging an armless, blind man to try to become a world boxing champion!

Unfortunately, stevenimeyer thinks like most of his kind. Like Singer, he too lives in a fantasy world, one created by fanatical religious belief.

This is why nuclear-armed Israeli Jews (and those who support them) are so dangerous!

They are crazy just like stevenimeyer's suggestion.

Yuyutsu wrote: "So Forkes, what alternative solution do you have in mind for people who happened to born in Israel?"

It's not only people born in Israel who must be considered: a future must be available to all inhabitants of Israel if Israel is to be dismantled. The problem is made easier by the fact that Israel does not house all of the world's Jews and Zionists. In fact, only a few million such people live in Israel. They could easily be accommodated by their great supporters in the USA without making much difference, considering that they seem to control the USA government, its financial institutions, and most of its media already.

There are in fact several different options available to the inhabitants of Israel. I believe most Israelis could find a tolerable option from amongst those available, leaving few to be driven into the sea, which is what some of Israel's neighbours have said the Israelis deserve.

Option 1. Before the establishment of the nation of Israel there were Jews living in the region, harmoniously with the numerically superior Arabs. Israeli Jews, if they were willing to hand all Israeli territory back to the Palestinians and pledge to live harmoniously with them, respecting and obeying a Palestinian government, might be allowed to stay.

Option 2. Israelis could migrate to anywhere else in the world that will have them. They are already well represented in most of the rich countries of the world, so it's not as if they would be going somewhere where they had no friends.

Option 3. Those committed Zionists who insist that an Israel must exist to provide a homeland for the Jews need to get busy finding some other place that will accept them. They should have enough money to buy a big enough place, considering all the aid they have been given by America.

There may also be other options I haven't considered. As to whether they should be applied to Australians is worth thinking about. If they were applied selectively to some Australians we would certainly have a better country!

Sorry Forkes I disagree.
Although I see the creation of Israel, especially the "nakba", as a heinous heinous crime against humanity it would be an almost equally heinous act to force the Israeli people to leave now. The criminals who planned and carried out the terrorism and dispossession leading to the formation of Israel are either long dead or extremely elderly now and you cannot punish the son for the sins of the father, as it were. Many evil crimes have been committed in the past and gone unpunished. We cannot continually revisit the past looking for people to punish. The reality is that Israel exists and should be excepted. Within its fair and reasonable recognised borders of course.

The refugees from 1948 are also in many cases passed on or quite elderly and in the same way you cant punish current Israelis for their forebears crimes the refugees children cannot continue to press the same claims that their parents had. Some compensation is undoubtedly due and Israel can well afford to pay out of the revenues they are getting from their technology and hard working populace. Let alone the squillions they get from the US. The refugee camps should be shut down or formalised as proper permanent communities and provided with the necessary services to allow the residents to have some certainty and security and get on with their lives instead of looking backwards to what happened 60 years ago.

It will never happen though.
One godbotherer says my god gave me this land then the other godbotherer says no my god gave it to me and so goes the insane, foul, antihuman roundabout of conflict and war that is the defining characteristic of every religion. No amount of charity and little old ladies selling cakes can make up for the intolerance and murderous hatred that lies at the core of every religion.
It is up to rational people everywhere to fight this dark ages mentality of religious war and conquest before the godbotherers unleash their armageddon on us all.

#stevenlmeyer

I agree with you entirely. Arguing with Jew haters is a complete waste of time.

However I prefer to treat every one respectfully until I can be certain they are Jews-haters.

Every one has his biases (including me) that perhaps can be amenable to change by rational discussion. Many people are misinformed as to the facts and hopefully may understand the conflict better if the facts can be explained to them.

I am more than happy to be corrected if any facts I use are shown to be wrong.

Hatred is another thing. It is ingrained and immutable, The object of such hatred is loathed and can do no right. The only way to rid the hatred is to get rid of the object of that hatred.

mikk and David G have been exposed by their own words as Jew haters.

I can now add Forkes to that list as he states:
"They could easily be accommodated by their great supporters in the USA without making much difference, considering that they seem to control the USA government, its financial institutions, and most of its media already."

Yes they can continue to wallow in their own hatred. They will receive no respect or consideration from me.

The same will apply to any others who similarly seek to publicly (strangely always anonymously) proclaim their hatred of Jews.

David Singer, whenever Israel is exposed for what it is, the same familiar cry is shouted by rabid Jewish supporters: People who criticize Israel are Jew-haters or anti-semites! It's predictable, boring and completely untrue (but then, as history shows, Jews love playing the victim).

I note that you have not challenged any of my observations concerning Israeli cruelty, oppression, genocide, land-stealing, collective punishment, war crimes, etc, not one. This is significant! All you can do is to carp about me hating Jews which I have never said. As a lawyer, you should know that this is an allegation which is not based in fact!

That Israel is an Arab-hating State is a fact. Sixty years of occupation and repression demonstrate that. That non-Jews are called Gentiles and are considered by Jews to be inferior to them is a fact. That Muslims are considered to be sub-humans by Jews is also a fact.

David, I repeat again: Please seek counseling. Your unsubstantiated, unbalanced ranting demonstrates that you are clearly suffering from religious derangement and that you live in a world of make believe.

Seek help while you can!

Cheers.

Israeli scientists are among world leaders in the brand new field of "regenerative medicine".

What is "regenerative medicine"?

I cannot do better than to quote wikipedia.

"Regenerative Medicine is the process of creating living, functional tissues to repair or replace tissue or organ function lost due to age, disease, damage, or congenital defects"

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_medicine

Recently researchers at the Rambam Health Care Campus and the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology succeeded in generating human heart cells from "induced pluripotent stem cells"

This needs some explanation.

The human body is made up of 220 different types of cell. generally it is not possible to induce say a skin cell to become a heart muscle cell.

In 2006 Shinya Yamanaka's and his team at Kyoto University, Japan showed that it is possible to induce mature cells to become "pluripotent". Pluripotent cells, like embryonic stem cells, can develop into any type of cell. It is thus in principle possible to generate new heart muscle cells from skin cells.

That is exactly what the Prof. Lior Gepstein and his team at Rambam / Technion succeeded in doing.

See:

http://www.rambam.org.il/NR/exeres/09A30C56-25E3-4240-84D8-44D25581ECEF,frameless.htm?NRMODE=Published

Using this technique it should be possible to generate replacement cells for any tissue in the body using the patient's own skin cells. Because the patient's own cells are used there is no problem with rejection. The method thus offers advantages over transplants.

MIKK wrote:"Sorry Forkes I disagree.
Although I see the creation of Israel, especially the "nakba", as a heinous heinous crime against humanity it would be an almost equally heinous act to force the Israeli people to leave now.

You are entitled to disagree, but I am entitled to ask "why?" Amongst the options I mentioned were some that do not seem particularly onerous, so in what way are they heinous?

"The criminals who planned and carried out the terrorism and dispossession leading to the formation of Israel are either long dead or extremely elderly now and you cannot punish the son for the sins of the father, as it were. Many evil crimes have been committed in the past and gone unpunished. We cannot continually revisit the past looking for people to punish."

Agreed. By themselves, crimes of the past might not be sufficient grounds for dismantling Israel. But that supposes that Israel in recent times has been well behaved, reasonable, willing to live in peace with all its neighbours and to compensate all the survivours of its atrocities from the past. Israel has never been like that for as long as I can remember... in fact it continues almost daily to add to the tally of troubles it has caused the world. For example it is currently leading the USA and other world powers to bully Iran over alleged nuclear violations that Israel itself does not observe. Another major war is likely to result from this brinksmanship. The only way I can see of stopping it is to dismantle Israel. The only way I can see Palestinians ever obtaining justice is to dismantle Israel.

(Continued...)

Continuation...

"The reality is that Israel exists and should be excepted. Within its fair and reasonable recognised borders of course."

Unfortunately, Israel has a long history of continually trying to expand its borders. If Israel was such a big and well entrenched country that dismantling it would be impractical I would not propose dismantling it. But the fact is that Israel is still small enough to be dismantled. We agree that establishing it was a big mistake. We can save the world untold ongoing strife by dismantling it before it gets further out of hand. The reality is that Israel exists but should not be allowed to go on the way it is forever.

Forkes, you wrote:

"The reality is that Israel exists but should not be allowed to go on the way it is forever"

I couldn't agree with you more: Israel must change its ways.

However, my question was about the PEOPLE living there and I am yet to receive a more compassionate response from you as I received from Mikk.

I thank you for your honesty in your former response:

"If they were applied selectively to some Australians we would certainly have a better country!"

I assume that "some" does not include yourself or your family, but rather those you dislike.

How would you feel if, for example, your parents were forced to either:
1. Give up their family home (and live where?) and subject themselves to an Islamic regime, which may perhaps be merciful enough to allow them (being considered infidels) to live.
2. Be lucky enough to find friends or family overseas that are willing to sponsor them and able to convince their government to allow them in. But oh, what if they are too old and frail to travel?
3. In their mature age, instead of being given a rest, join a bunch of fanatics that are looking to create a new country from scratch, even while your parents have little in common with those fanatics.

?

I wonder whether you are willing to have your dog treated this way.

As for your fantasy about Jews controlling the world, having enough money to buy a country or migrate wherever they want, etc. I believe it to be false, but hey, I am not concerned about it because I am now discussing REAL people, not Jews in general, and even had your claims been correct, that would in no way imply that ordinary Israelis have a share in that Jewish-control. If indeed Jews had such powers, then instead of helping the world, your suggestions would actually grant more power to a few corrupt Jewish leaders, while forcing ordinary Israelis (which already suffer from this madness) to submit further into the mercy of such madmen. Is that what you want?

Yuyutsu wrote:"Israel must change its ways."

I would agree if there was any liklihood of it happening. But Israel has been told that many times, not only by its enemies but by its allies and even by some of its citizens.

How do you propose getting Israel to change, bearing in mind that its behaviour has been consistent for 60 years? My proposal might be called rather drastic, but at least it would be effective and is likely to be approved by all of Israel's neighbours.

Forkes, your idea of dismantling Israel is one that I have often canvassed.

Israel has had sixty years to prove to the world that it can be a nation that abides by the rules that govern all other nations. It has failed that test completely and instead, it has implemented a Nazi-style, military occupation upon the Palestinians.

According to Al Jazeera, there is an aid convoy of nine ships that will assemble and make their way to Gaza in the next few days carrying 5,000 tons of building supplies, school supplies, and medicines. Israel has already said the convoy won't be allowed to discharge its cargo because it breaks 'Israeli Law'.

It seems that 'Israeli Law' applies not only to the Palestinians but right across the whole Arab neighborhood. It has led to Israel bombing other countries and even enables Israel to consider nuking Iran, an act which could kill millions and set off WW3.

Clearly, Israel is a menace to the whole world. The world would be a better, more safer place if the State of Israel didn't exist and its people were dispersed to other countries where they can't have armies.

You cant blame every Israeli for the crimes of their leadership. Indeed how could you reconcile that outlook with Arab Israeli citizens? Are they guilty too?
There are plenty of Israelis that dont agree with their governments actions and plenty of jews worldwide who object. That they are drowned out by the propaganda of the likes of singer just means it is up to the rest of us to assist them in their struggle for justice.

Just saying all jews are bad and they need to be dispersed is no better than what you accuse them of. You dont achieve justice by victimising people even if they deserve it. Israel and the zionists must be made to see the error of their expansionist ways by force of argument, international law and pressure from the international community not by force of arms (which is what it would take to dismantle Israel) or conflict or terror.

Forkes,

I do not agree that Israel's behaviour has been consistent for 60 years. While it is not good at the moment, there were times when Israel offered great concessions, gave back the Sinai peninsula to Egypt, twice withdrew from Lebanon and Gaza and offered back about 97% of the West Bank.

Israel is a very divided society, so at times some forces within it have the upper-hand and at other times, opposite forces have it. If you want to get Israel to change, you must be intelligent about it, you must offer both carrot and stick, for if you offer the stick alone, you would force moderate israelis straight into the arms of their fanatic extremists.

On the carrot's side, Israel can be offered international acceptence, financial aid, admission into the EU, pressuring Hamas to release Gilad Shalit (and to avoid kidnapping others), security measures/guarantees, etc. Also, the international community should set up a fund to buy off lands/buildings from Israelis who wish to leave the West Bank (and Eastern Jerusalem), then sell them more cheaply to local Arabs.

On the stick's side, the UN must resolve and declare unequivocally that Israel's 1949-1967 borders are its final borders and list the Jewish settlers as a terrorist organization, making it illegal to visit them or support them financially, including an official boycot of, and the demand to label, all produce from Jewish West-Bank settlements.

The international community should hurry making this firm stand because Israel's demography is changing and time is not of advantage: the settlers and their supporters deliberately breed faster than sane israelis, already forcing out many despairing sane Israelis that are able to leave, leaving behind the weak and the poor that cannot leave who are also more easily influenceable by fanatics.

David-G.,

Attitutes such as yours are self-fulfilling, leaving ordinary Israelis with no choice but to fight back desperately with their backs to the Mediterranean, shoulder-to-shoulder with those filthy settlers, ending up using their nukes and indeed becoming a menace to the world. You are creating this nightmare with your own hands.

Mikk, thank you.

David G, "Attitutes such as yours are self-fulfilling, leaving ordinary Israelis with no choice but to fight back desperately with their backs to the Mediterranean, shoulder-to-shoulder with those filthy settlers, ending up using their nukes and indeed becoming a menace to the world. You are creating this nightmare with your own hands." So said Yuyutsu.

I've been accused of many things in my life but this is the first time I've ever been accused of creating the nightmare that Israel has become. How did I do it? And, blimey, I never even noticed.

This kind of ridiculous comment highlights the insanity that accompanies religious fanaticism.

David G.,

I don't suspect for a moment that you have such destructive intentions or ever noticed it, but that is the inadvertent result of such attitudes towards Israel.

Would it surprise you that people are usually not too fond of dying prematurely, or of becoming homeless wanderers?

Suppose you, though obviously not suspected of religious fanaticism, were subjected to the following bitter choice, to either:

1. Leave your home behind, try to find a place somewhere else in the world to start-over, or if you can't (perhaps nobody wants you, or perhaps for example you were taking care of elderly parents who are too frail to go anywhere), get drowned in the ocean instead ; or
2. Join forces with a group of religious fanatics: you have very little in common with them, you hate their views, you hate seeing their face, and you know that they will require you to perform disgusting atrocities of a kind, but in collaboration with them you will survive and be able to keep your home, family and community together.

Now honestly, which option would you choose?

I guess that if you were one of the lucky: young (though not too young), healthy, educated and able, with language skills and no family obligations, you would leave and find yourself a different country, but the majority who cannot, will fight to the bitter end, and take the world down with them if necessary.

Israelis grew up with the knowledge that surrounding Arabs want to throw them into the Mediterranean sea. It doesn't matter why, or who was right or wrong - it all happened before they were born anyway, so they acquired nukes to protect themselves. Now, while I abhor the settlers and the expansionist policies of the Israeli government, I am glad that those nuclear weapons are available to keep my family safe and prevent them from being kicked out of home by "do-gooders" to become either fish-food or refugees.

If you're after doing a good turn,
SAVE MY FAMILY, REMOVE THOSE BLOODY CANCEROUS SETTLERS AWAY FROM THEM, BUT DON'T KILL THEM ALONG!

Yuyutsu wrote:"Israel must change its ways" and when asked to explain how that could be achieved, wrote "you must offer both carrot and stick".

Of course Israel has already been offered both of those ever since it came into being. The USA gives it billions of dollars annually in aid, protects it at the UN, has rushed in military hardware in times of crisis, and even covered up a deliberate Israeli attack on a US navy ship rather than retaliate. Also offering barrow loads of carrots are stupid prime ministers of Australia and Britain, pledging their countries' support for Israel.

Offering the stick have been Israel's Arab neighbours who went to war to rid themselves of Israel, and who probably would have won if it had not been for shipments of armaments rushed to Israel from abroad. Also trying to offer a bit of stick has been the UN which, despite vetoes and other opposition from the USA, has occasionally passed resolutions condemning Israel's actions, only to be ignored by Israel itself and any world powers with enough muscle to enforce the resolutions.

Introducing some practical reality to this discussion, we need to recognize that whatever we might agree is theoretically best, nothing can be changed whilst the USA continues to support Israel in its rogue behaviour.

"we need to recognize that whatever we might agree is theoretically best, nothing can be changed whilst the USA continues to support Israel in its rogue behaviour"

Yes Forkes, you do touch a sore spot, it's this America whom one cannot live with, but cannot live without either. It's not just about Israel, but about almost every area of life.

Without the USA, you would today be toiling as a slave, digging by hand in some central-Australian mine, over 50 degrees in summer, meagre food rations and whipped whenever your superior-race Japanese master thinks you work too slow. Or would perhaps enduring the dullness and constant fear of living under a Soviet/Stalinist regime be any better?

Thank them for that, but on the other hand, it is the USA that keeps poisoning the world with junk: junk-food chains, junk-entertainment, violence, consumerism, GE crops, highest carbon emissions, etc.

I must thank the Americans for keeping my family alive in times of crisis, but not for supporting the Jewish settlers (of which the worst kind are American citizens themselves).

Sigh, there is probably nothing we can really do about it.

Yet again, the claim as if "Israel's behaviour has been consistent for 60 years", is false.

The current situation is indeed bad. Israel is going downhill, it deteriorates in the direction of the middle-east's lowest common denominator and they should indeed feel ashamed of that, but Israel did have better times. While this interview could not have occured today, I wish for Israel to recover and be deserving yet again of the following commentary from 1979: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uHSv1asFvU

Yuyutsu, I feel your pain and feel real sympathy for you.

The problem is that Israel was formed on a false premise: that of trying to ameliorate the horrors inflicted by the Nazis. In trying to lessen one catastrophe, the authorities created another.

The Jews, frightened and angered by what the Nazis did, have become exactly like them. To remedy this, the Israeli Jews have to adopt a different posture: become less arrogant, less militaristic, less imperial, less superior, less fanatical.

For example, they could allow the flotilla of aid ships easy access to Gaza. They could release some of the Palestinians they are holding in jails. They could stop the siege of Gaza and take down all the checkpoints in the West Bank and the concrete wall and stop building settlements and evicting Palestinians from their homes.

If they made some real concessions, they would get some back; then peace might stand a chance.

Yuyutsu wrote: "it is the USA that keeps poisoning the world with junk: junk-food chains, junk-entertainment, violence, consumerism, GE crops, highest carbon emissions, etc."

Agreed completely, and to that list you can add protection and encouragement of the rogue state of Israel.