pynchme; Still oblivious to supply and demand I see. By your 'logic', prostitution is driven not by demand, but supply. I didn't anticipate you'd be blaming women for prostitution. I thought it was the nasty men creating the demand.

'If it's such an easy way towards a house deposit then more men would be doing the same.'

More men would do the same if more women were looking for the service. But the James' of this world ensure all a woman has to do is turn up to a pub for free sex.

I cant believe your intellectual dishonesty...

'just trot yourself out along one Sydney street or another and make your fortune one head job at a time.'

Competing with the free service offered by the bloke next to me, I'm sure I would be making a fortune. That house would be paid off in no time.

'The point is that there is no reason why you can't exercise the same choice.'

Well then there is no reason why women cant 'exercise the same choice' to be CEOs.

Enjoy your fantasy world pynch. You really have gotten a few laughs here. With the stupidity of your arguments here one can only conclude you are absolutely terrified of accepting women ever have more opportunity than men. Even if it's to sell their bodies.

The music industry perpetuates this cycle of one-upmanship when it comes to raunch and sex, each star vying for the most outrageous persona. And it is the public that let themselves get sucked into it and pay over large wads of cash.

Wouldn't be a problem if it was confined to adult audiences who can make a choice about whether the Gaga is for them, but music is very much targeted at the young.

Now my kids are older they are more discerning and can see things for what they are without the burden of peer pressure, but it's hard going for parents sometimes battling against the lack of care in the corporate world and fostering the sorts of environments that are healthy for children.

It says something that many music clip directors have been drawn from the porn industry as with the case of Britney Spears makeover from teen idol to vampy singer.

It is a losing battle I suspect, the only thing as parents we can do is hope we build the foundation that allows our kids to make the right decisions for themselves in the pursuit of happiness - whatever that means for them.

The only thing Gaga is liberating is her clothing.

Now that I have that off my chest two things come to mind about liberation.

What is liberation? Liberation could easily be argued as complete freedom to do anything you want without the scrutiny and scorn of social norms. No judgement, just the pursuit of pleasure. We are all socialised to the extent of what we think is desirable behaviours or morally justified.

Are we only about conditioning or are there other more innate forces at work?

History seems to demonstrate that periods of complete freedoms such as the decadent era of the Roman Empire end badly. Too much self indulgence does not seem to be good for us as a whole. However that is one viewpoint.

I don't know the answers and we all struggle with these concepts but it is somehting to think about.

pynchme:"What makes your butt or dangly bits or mouth any more special than a vagina ?"

Nothing at all, but the market value is considerably lower.

What makes a vagina any more special than a broad back or a strong pair of arms? How many bricks can your vagina carry? Can it use a hammer? Turn a screw? Operate a sawmill?

I don't think you need worry pelican. This morning on Sesame Street, I saw a guy dressed as a prince being told by princess puppets that just because they are women they don't need a prince to save them.

The indoctrination starts early. I have seen similar feminist PC stuff on Play School in a Cinderella play.

What I don't understand is why not just make up new stories to suit the times. It's a deliberate gender politics deconstruction of fairy tales aimed at toddlers.

If it helps kids de-construct advertising I suppose it's good, but it's just another thing to be careful of in modern media; The politicisation of 3 year olds.

I'm sure it will lead to 5 year old girls slapping boys in the face when they try to do something nice, just as young girls who like lady GaGa will be destined to be prostitutes.

Looking back I remember a fair bit of indoctrination in primary school, notably environmentalism and feminism. Could have just been the particular teachers, but nobody is regulating these messages just as nobody regulates raunch culture.

In the end, I always think the world is the world, and kids will find out soon enough that sex can be used for profit, and there are fundamentalists like pynchme ready to poison their minds. It's up to parents to educate kids of the pit-falls.

I think a educating and empowering kids about the many dangers in the world is always better than attempting to change society, or even the view of society seen by children. It's more likely to work.

Houlley I think you know I don't think girls who watch the Gaga are destined to be prostitutes. I speak out about sexualisation of children because it is an unpopular viewpoint and if the PC position is complete freedoms no matter what, then people like MTR (on this issue) at least keep the pressure on.

As for the rest, indocrination does start early. Even parents manipulate their kids as part of discipline and guidance.

Many argue that the school system is rife with evil socialists all pushing their environmental, political and feminist views onto children. I had a mix of lefties and righties not so much of the feminism - that came at uni but it was at a time when women were still earning lower wages for doing the same jobs. However despite all these lefties rampaging the schools, the world has pretty much moved to the Right of politics.

I had a bit of a giggle over the Sesame Street Prince scenario. This is difficult because as a child of the 60s, I still do like the old fashioned stuff a bit, opening doors, manners, flowers, femininity/masculinity. If a prince wants to do nice things for me that is okay by me. These things are usually about degree and respect, but maybe I am an anachronism.

I hope we continue to value diversity and difference even in gender.

Indoctrination is in the eye of the beholder and only bad when you don't agree with it. :)

pelican,

'Houlley I think you know I don't think girls who watch the Gaga are destined to be prostitutes.'

Really? Maybe just slappers:-)

'Indoctrination is in the eye of the beholder and only bad when you don't agree with it.'

Indeed pelican. I always used to laugh at right wing merchant bankers and lawyers complaining about the left wing universities and schools. Sacrifice your salary and become a teacher if you want in on all that indoctrinating action I would say. Or pay teachers more. It's natural for lower paying educational occupations to attract more lefties I reckon. Anyway, they put up with 'those who cant teach' all the time, they deserve to get their own back.

'These things are usually about degree and respect, but maybe I am an anachronism. I hope we continue to value diversity and difference even in gender. '

Be careful, pynchme's around...

Having a daughter I'm happy enough with the message from that sesame street episode; I want her to be independent and not a victim-feminism junkie like pynchme.

My objections are it's just a little early in the morning for gender politics and aimed at children a little young for it, and really it irks me that they are that desperate as to put their message across in sesame street.

Kids will get enough spin from politicians throughout their lives, 3 years old I think should be able to enjoy a harmless tale. Which is the parallel I made with your sexualisation of children. But, I think, as with the supposed sexualisation of children, the problem is in the adult mind. Kids don't even notice this stuff. Most adults don't either, they don't see kids in dress ups as lolita. Nobody ever complains about those fake muscles on Batman costumes, because it's just boys playing.

A better way would be to create further tales about how the princess returns the favour and saves the prince rather than being offended when the prince wants to help.

Actually that last sentence sums up the difference in feminist attitudes between you and pynchme I reckon.