JP "For example, as an atheist you can state that rape is wrong. But the rapist can ask: “Why is rape wrong: just because you say so? Who are you to tell me what is right and wrong?”"
And you would say "No, it's my invisible friend that says you can't"
That should fix him, right? Right?

Honestly Pericles, I'm amazed that you actually decided to give JP a thorough answer in response to his Hume-style "use the 'rape' analogy to whatever situation I don't like" tactic - even my simplistic joke was too good a response for him, IMO.

Anyway, I feel Angie is perfectly right.
If a lady decides she cannot or doesn't want to handle the pregnancy, birth or raising a child, either physically OR emotionally then abortion is the right thing to do.

And holding an unwanted pregnancy should DEFINITELY not be done just to please some bigoted strangers or their deities. It's plain unhealthy for her, and just puts another impediment on what to actually do with the child once its born (something most of these pro-life people can't seem to think about).

Us poor unbelievers certainly do it so much tougher than believers when it comes to issues such as abortion. We have to think for ourselves whereas the christain gods views on the value of the unborn are clearly spelt out as are her views on abortion.

There can be no debate on the meaning of the key verses for believers, there is no ambiguity, no risk of intepreation based on cultural values or tradition. For a good summary of the issues from a biblical perspective those who care might like to read http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-bibleforbids.htm

R0bert

'no doubt some of the 9/11 murderers were also child activist.'

runner that's gold. It really cracked me up.

Pericles,

I read it as implied. If you make parallels between rape and other heinous crimes to abortion, you must therefore consider abortion murder. I don't think it's a massive jump. Although the next post confirmed you sanctimony allegations.

pelican,

Congrats. Your analogy has diverted a post about abortion to environmentalism. I thought only I had such talent with analogies. Rip rip wood chip turn it into paper....

On topic (now) I often wonder where all these enviro-extremists expect to get the toilet paper to wipe their arses once there are no more cutting down trees, as nowhere is it 'environmentally friendly' to have a pulp mill. I'm sure there is an endangered tree frog or something where ever a mill is proposed.

BTW: Morals are absolute. Sure you would like them to be relative so you can justify your actions to yourself. But really, that twang of guilt you feel every time you wipe your arse is the lord telling you you're an enviro-vandal.

Houellebecq,

Moral frameworks are constructed by the individual. People are quite capable of having different sets morals and standards. They are certainly not absolute.

The morals you talk about were probably constructed by people because they believed that they would work for themselves and their particular group of people. In fact, they probably imposed them on others who had differing views on morals. That in itself is surely not a moral thing to do...is it? Taking away choice and imposing an inflexible framework on people - that is surely a form of slavery.

This nonsense about atheists having no moral code is so tired. The concept of treating others as you would have them treat you is the basis of rational morality, and was around for at least 5 centuries before Jesus allegedly stepped into his own drama.
Are we to understand the only thing stopping you from being a rapist is your fear of your God, JP?
If the God of the Christian Bible was (and remains) the basis of morality, Angie would not have had to worry about an abortion.
Runner and JP would have stoned her to death as an adulteress, long ago.

I'm a Christian and I still think there's a place for abortion. Personally - seeing as we're all sharing - I don't believe in so called lifestyle abortions. I think if you're actively having intercourse and fall pregnant then here's your bed, make it comfy. Of course there's always the argument that an unwanted kid is destined for a life they probably are better off not having - seeing as we're being selfish with lifestyle choices. Not suggesting the author was, just talking in general.

My partner has Cystic Fibrosis and neither of us would wish even that risk on anyone. We can't have kids naturally so if we do there WILL be embryonic screening going on that's fo sho.

I think the author is slightly mentally deficient by coming across miffed about negative comments from the 'religious right' - I'm sure not every comment had their theological affiliation at the end - when you update the world of your abortion real time via tweets. I mean, c'mon, not only the religious right are offended by this sort of thing. What's your next special, tweeting while slitting the throats of animals or the sake of a decent BBQ with #PETA at the end of each tweet?. Uh yeah, stupid, you're cop some negativity.

An ex of mine had an abortion and I consider that a loss. No one from her to the docs at the abortion clinic asked me what I thought and I had to pay for it. I would've, and could've, cared for it if I had the chance, she could've pissed off and done whatever she wanted to do with her life and left me to it.

There's a place for it, but tweeting it blow by blow is, well, F%^$#D up IMHO.