Pynchme

I once heard a story about a married couple who used to argue about the correct way to fold the towels. They stopped when they started asking "what is more important, the problem or the relationship?" Asking this question stopped arguments from becomming too heated.

I agree that family therapy is only effective if all participants feel safe.

Houllie

I apologise for not knowing as much about porn as you. That article and one other http://newmatilda.com/2009/11/05/how-liberating-porn-really was all I know about modern porn. Both painted a similar picture. I commented on Pynchme's article. Next thing I knew, I was in trouble for attempting to describe the thinking of the viewers without displaying enough righteous indignation.

I think that aricle benk, well, it's symptomatic of the problems the wowsers have. 'In reality'? Hahaha. It's fantasy. I've gone over all this on another thread. Look up Nancy Friday, read some of the femle fantasies and you'll see this isn't a 'male' phenomena.

It's just convenient, as r0bert suggests, for feminists to twist every thing that is 'bad' in the world, and relate it to the innate evil that is 'men'.

Look at all sorts of issues. If male circumcision was commonly performed on girls (say, the cutting of the outer labia for hygene reasons), it would be an example of the misogynist men wanting to mutilate the female body. But when some random phenomina like that happens to men, well, it's just an outdated currently unfashionable but still justifiable medical procedure. There is no filter of gender politics, and it isn't seen through the bitter eyes of a woman hating philosophy. But, if it were something routinely done to girls, it would be seen through the bitter feminist gaze. It would be used in all sorts of articles as an example of misogyny.

As r0bert says, ' the author is reading far more into it than is reasonable.'

As I said in my symbolism rant, sometimes a game of pool isn't metaphor for ethnic cleansing.

benk,

'describe the thinking of the viewers without displaying enough righteous indignation.'

Oh, I'm just recently getting into righteous indignation. I've been missing out. Have a go at telling off antiseptic, it's really fun!

pynchme,

I have no desire to 'reformulate' myself, and certainly no desire to arrogantly proscribe a new masculine identity for others.

Just as the phrase 'equality for women' attempts to position the debate with women universally disadvantaged compared to men, this 'crisis in masculinity' is attempting to position a narrow (and universally negative) definition of masculinity onto all men.

'You feel it; I know you do.'

Hahaha. What crap!

'Maybe one of the pornography connoisseurs in our midst could describe some.'

Try Abby Winters.

Benk

Thank you for your clarification, that goes a long way to understand where you are coming from. However, I will provoke you and ask how you know what goes on in women's shelters and groups vis a vis female violence. I would hope that their behaviour is a part of any program - for some that would mean being more assertive, for others less.

Pynchme

I was struck too, by Jensen's suggestion to do away with 'masculinity', not quite sure what he meant, unless it means a rethink of stereotyping the rigid role models that men are expected to live and portray. I'm more for men and women just being in a position to excel at whatever positive qualities they have and to minimise our worst behaviour. Male and female best qualities are identical; compassion, courage, love, empathy - just to name a few.

R0bert

I have never heard 'bloke' used as a derogative term. However, there exists: 'run like a girl', 'throw like a girl', being a 'pussy' all terms to ensure that young boys see their sisters as weak and a need to differentiate themselves.

80% of couples manage to work their custody arrangements out without resorting to court action. Of the remaining 20%, out of those; the 50/50 arrangement has not been working - I do not know what percentage. However, where the 50/50 arrangement results in a child being placed with an abusive parent, clearly this is an appalling result. Of abusive parents, males are more likely to use physical abuse and females are more likely to use neglect and psychological abuse, however there are no hard and fast rules: women can be violent and use psychological manipulation, so too can men. This has as much to do with conditioning as anything: women are encouraged to be less aggressive, whereas boys are encouraged to be aggressive, else they be called a 'girl'.

Finally.

There is no excuse for Antiseptic's personal insults that he uses on me or anyone else - these insults far exceed any real or imagined slights he may have received.

Severin:"I have never heard 'bloke' used as a derogative term."

I have, usually in the context of a couple of girls deriding men for being "blokey", which seems to mean "not sufficiently under the thumb".

Severin:"women are encouraged to be less aggressive, whereas boys are encouraged to be aggressive, else they be called a 'girl'."

When was the last time you were at a Primary School? There is no possibility of boys behaving even slightly aggressively. If they do they face massive censure and sanctions including suspension and expulsion. If they model typical female bullying behaviours such as social axclusion, rumour-spreading, etc, the teachers' response is very different. I know this because I have experienced, via my children as victims, both types of bullying and have raised complaints about both.

The second was far more damaging and caused my son great distress, since he had no idea what he was supposed to have done, but none of his "friends" would talk to him or play with him. The teacher's response? "Oh, that happens all the time, he'll make new friends", which may be true, but when my daughter was tormented by a boy from the grade below hers, including such dire behaviours as hair-pulling (once pretty normal for both genders), the kid was suspended.

She hadn't been especially bothered by it and simply gave as good as she got (he probably had a crush on her if truth be known).

It is good to see you acknowledge finally that this is a complex issue. we seem to be making progress.

I'll make you the same offer I made the Pomeranian: you avoid offering insults to me and I'll avoid doing so to you. Not surprisingly, the little fella wasn't man enough to keep his end up, but I'm sure you will be.

All that terrible socialisation telling boy's how bad girls are. I remember an example that was quite popular when I was younger

What are little boys made of?
Snips and snails, and puppy dogs tails
That's what little boys are made of !"
What are little girls made of?
"Sugar and spice and all things nice
That's what little girls are made of!"

My memory is that the girls seemed to like that one a lot more than the boy's.

Severen I don't think that the repeated claim that Cornflower is a man are intended as a compliment. I posted a link to one example, I've seen other attacks on Cornflowers gender identity previously - she does not fit in with the predominate attitudes expressed by women on OLO therefore her gender is questioned. For most the insult lies in questioning the other parties gender identity rather than it necessarily being an attack on the other gender.

R0bert

I had it as "frogs and snails...."

Making "Rendezvous with Rana" all the more disturbing.

Rusty