Hey Pynchme

Thanks, I hope that is what Benk meant. I guess.

I find the idea of porn as revenge quite disturbing, especially after reading your link to Robert Jensen's article. He voiced a lot of what I have thought about.

Cheers

From the article linked to by Pynchme

"A common insult that boys hurl at each other is the accusation of being a girl, a being who lacks strength. No insult on the playground is worse than being called a girl, except perhaps being called a “fag,” a derivative of girl."

So what does it mean when an adult woman call's another women who she disagree's with a bloke. Does that prove that the person making the call hates men or rather that attacking someone over their gender identification is often an effective insult?

I'd go with the latter in most cases. Maybe not for pre-teenage boys who delight in not liking girls but then they are hardly a reasonable indicator of the state of masculinity.

That's one of the problems with articles such as the one Pynchme linked to, authors with axes to grind tend to run with a examples which suits their purposes regardless of the context or alternative explanations and it's all to easy to not question those examples and assumptions.

I've never much liked or fitted in with the "blokey" masculine image but the author left me feeling under attack by his apparent one size fit's all interpretation of masculinity. Is my enjoyment of making something in the shed part of the masculinity which he want's to get rid of? Is it CJ heading off to a quiet fishing spot with some beer and whatever tackle he uses? Is it the variety of other ways that men live out their own version of masculinity (via what are predominately male interests and pursuits). The author targets porn but attacks masculinity in much broader terms.

For those who think that the authors assumptions are fair and that calling a boy a girl shows a hatred of women then you might like to consider a recent post on one female poster directed at another female poster.

"I think Corny is a bloke btw; though some have wondered if he/she is
Antiseptic'c mum."

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3480#82994

R0bert

Robert: I wondered what the author meant re: getting rid of masculinity. It seemed over the top to me. That's one of the reasons I wanted to hear what men thought about it - notice that the author talks about a couple of ways that masculinity sans violence could be formulated. He goes for a complete rebuild, apparently.

I can't tell you or him how to reformulate yourselves; I don't even have an opinion on it, as interesting and important as it is.

When he talks about youngsters calling other young males girls - you know he is talking about socialization from the earliest stages of male-development and inculcating the notion that feminine traits are inferior and undesirable. I think females have some quite nice traits that are not exclusive to them but which are human. Not inaccessible to males (as many men have discovered) - but it's up to individual men to decide how they want to incorporate those; portray themselves and be portrayed.

I don't know of any women who refer to other women as blokes to deride them. Do you? Just can't think of any examples off the top of my head. Maybe it's a bit close to bed time. You'd need to jog my memory.

As to Cornflower - I honestly don't know if Cornflower is a woman or a man, which is kind of cool. I'd say male by the nature of the posts and the anti-female sentiments - however - a bloke using a flower name? That's the only thing that suggests that Cornflower might (just possibly) be female. The matter of being Antiseptic's mother is from an old argument some time way back. Do a bit more rummaging through my old posts and see what other dastardly comments you can try to bend about in your insipid efforts to have a go at a feminist.

Btw: have you obtained Houellebecq's approval yet? Do you think this will do the trick to stop him jibing you in his petty way about your supposed fawning after feminist approval?

I didn't think you needed it.

Severin: Yes I agree. I believe that Benk is a better type than that - I hope so.

The idea of porn as revenge IS disturbing. Now I'm wondering what types there are that aren't like that. Maybe one of the pornography connoisseurs in our midst could describe some.

That would explain why the author separates himself from a certain type of male culture. He didn't try to explain how it works (the way Benk did) which I was hoping as I read that he would.

It's a beaut article - a lot to think about.

Pynchme, I think Houellebecq enjoy's that too much to let it die completely although he may eventually decide that it's got old (like the pomerainian joke).

"you know he is talking about socialization from the earliest stages of male-development and inculcating the notion that feminine traits are inferior and undesirable"

I differ on that. There is elements of socialization but there is a big part of it that's just kid's getting used to their own gender identity. I take it about as seriously as I take little girls not liking little boys and I think that the author is reading far more into it than is reasonable.

I found the wording the author used very annoying, about as helpful as someone suggesting that femininity should be done away with completely because some women like unrealistic daytime soaps which objectify people and could create unrealistic expectation on men regarding their earning capacity and how they look.

In regard to the porn that the author discusses, I've never watched that style, no appeal to it what so ever. Houellebecq summed it up pretty well http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10006#163394 and I'd agree with him regarding amateur porn being much more appealing (dam I hope I don't get his approval for that).

I don't personally get what the appeal in the other stuff is but there are a lot of things which I don't get about other peoples taste's, I've known people who I respect a lot to regularly watch Home and Away. Many people enjoy entertainment which bears no resemblance to how they want to live in the real world.

I suspect that for a lot of people their objection's to porn have more to do with their own discomfort about it's image than an objective analysis of the realities around it's creation and or use.

R0bert

Thanks Pynchme, you explained the thought process that I attempted to describe more articulately than I could.