Most Christians are compelled by love. Their heart is in the right place.

Many Christians are supporting the financially poor, both in Australia and overseas, spreading a spiritual message to others and providing other forms of assistance to those who need it.

The few that have damaged its reputation is unfortunate, but this should not been seen as a reflection on the religion as a whole.

Those who come out and attack, question or vilify Christianity are in my view directing their energy towards something of limited point and value, when the energy these people have could be positively directed towards something else.

Agree totally, most Christians are great people, and they have every right to their view, all faiths it could be said are the same,look for some thing to dislike about any of them and you will find it, however within every faith some who would never believe they are not true believers twist that faith, Americas right Christians come to mind, and sadly while many faiths have been found to have had pedophils within them the world wide findings on Catholics is confronting, Question, as every faith has the right to their belief do I have the right to believe in none of them?

Hey NathanJ,
Firstly I think that as a belief system Christanity may have some flaws.
Though I'm not sure if it's the word that is flawed of whether those calling themselves Christians are really Christians.
That said, I think it also has merits, and is probably the best of the main religions.

10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1....

There are people who are Christians; then there are people who call themselves Christians.

Thank you NathanJ.

//Most Christians are compelled by love. Their heart is in the right place.

Many Christians are supporting the financially poor, both in Australia and overseas, spreading a spiritual message to others and providing other forms of assistance to those who need it.//

Most people are compelled by love. Their heart is in the right place.

Many people are supporting the financially poor, both in Australia and overseas, and providing other forms of assistance to those who need it.

There, fixed.

To ttbn.

<There are people who are Christians; then there are people who call themselves Christians.>

I don't think that's our fall to make. Who is a Christian and who only says they are. After all some Christians are still Christian by their belief and hope in Jesus and what He did, but thay might be either young in their maturity to live up to Jesus's teachings, or or they are full of misunderstandings but still Christian.

Only Jesus will say who are really His and who isn't. But what we can do regardless is to teach. Help encourage or correct our brothers and sisters and hope for them all.

Being a Christian is a tremendous claim: a Christian is willing, if necessary, to die on the cross or endure equivalent sufferings for the love of all others.

Christian churches are made of people who aspire to become Christians.

NNS,

I stand by what I said. BTW, Jesus is not to be confused with God.

Our own righteousness is as filthy rags. It will only ever be the righteousness of Jesus Christ that will save. The Christian influence creates the most civilized societies while feminism and Marxism create a very selfish self centered society. Hashtag mefirst

Christians - their heart is in the right place?

I think that we should not just single out one
particular religion - but perhaps we should look
at all religions and the good work that they do?

We can start with Christian organisations who
do great works. For example there's the Saint Vincent de
Paul Society. "Vinnies" as it's known in Australia - is
a Catholic lay organisation which helps the homeless and
the poor. And we have many of those. Contributing factors
to their poverty are - drought, rural poverty, mental-health
issues, depression, violence, addiction, family and relationship
breakdown, and financial pressure. Many people are on the street
because of the closure of public mental institutions. They suffer
from moderate to sever psychiatric illnesses, often linked to
drug and alcohol problems. Vinnies provides help to those most
in need and "need" is the only test applied.

What is extraordinary is the range of services offered by Vinnies.
Then there's the Salvation Army - which provides similar
services. Those organisations represent Christianity at its best.
There are also other organisations like - The Sacred Heart Mission
which provides a three course lunch for needy people every day in
the "red-light" district of St. Kilda in Melbourne.

There's also Father Chris Riley who began his work for youth in
Sydney. He founded and developed "Youth Off The Streets" (YOTS).
And there's numerous other people and organisations who do
incredible work.

Therefore, in all the copious debates about any religion and
our society - one of the key questions that we should ask is -
where would our society be without the good work that people
and organisations that form such a vital part and contribute
so much to our society be? If judgements are to be made -
perhaps actions should speak louder than words - and credit
should be given where credit is due?

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

There are so many people doing such good work.
And their organisations are too numerous to
mention. Just a few spring to mind - The Smith
Family, World Vision, Oxfam Australia, BeyondBlue,
Cancer Council, Lions Clubs, Australian Rotary,
Australian Red Cross, Flying Doctor's Service,
Diabetes Australia, McGrath Foundation, and the
list goes on.

Consider the vacuum in our society if these good
people gave up their work. We can only be thankful
that their hearts are in the right place. There
are so many people both Christians and lay people
who do so much for us all. And for that we can all
be grateful.

<<Most people are compelled by love. Their heart is in the right place.>>

Is it? Or is it just in a place, where it is seen or felt to be in the right place? For example, someone's heart is in the right place to keep one alive (at a basic level) etc.

>>Many people are supporting the financially poor, both in Australia and overseas, and providing other forms of assistance to those who need it.

There, fixed.>>

With a community now seeing many new and existing community groups living off Government aid and finance, their ability to operate and stand for core values is slowly diminishing.

So the system is not fixed. It is in major need of repair.

As Yuyutsu points out: "Christian churches are made of people who aspire to become Christians." I would argue similar principles apply to the rest of the community (and other religions) as well.

Dear Nathan,

Could you please be more specific - and give us
some examples of what communities you're
referring to?

Hello Foxy,

<<Could you please be more specific - and give us some examples of what communities you're referring to?>>

What I'm referring to, is more the community at large. So taking religion out the picture for example, there will be a vast array of individuals with their own aspirations, things they are aiming to reach or achieve and positions they take on in regards to certain matters that I or others may not know about as a result.

I cannot read one's mind also of course.

One time I was out in public, and I saw a person who was clearly a Buddhist. I knew this by what they were wearing. Whilst I don't stereotype, I had some idea of who they were. For others I have had to have deeper discussions with these people to find out what they stand for, having nothing overly clear to see, take in or go by.

With people who are religious, although I take the view each is their own self, when I look at others in the community at large, I will have to take a much broader assessment as I don't know a lot of what these individuals will likely stand for, compared to someone of a religious background.

Hi Nathan,

I see what you mean.

Although today - the religious garb of so many people seems
to be disappearing. Which is a shame in many ways.

//Is it?//

Yes.

//Or is it just in a place, where it is seen or felt to be in the right place? For example, someone's heart is in the right place to keep one alive (at a basic level) etc.//

Well I guess that depends on whether talking about the literal, physical heart - which I shall refer to as the 'myocardium' for the rest of this discussion so as to save on confusion - and it's actual physical location; or whether we're being metaphorical and treating the heart as the seat of emotion and thought.

I think when it comes to the literal side of things, most people probably do have their hearts in the right place - otherwise they're going to be at risk of some serious medical complications.

Interestingly, there is a rare medical condition (about 1 in 10,000 people) called 'situs inversus' in which the organs of the chest and abdomen are the mirror image of what they are in us normies - heart on the right, liver on the left etc. But I guess with those guys having the heart on the right is having it in the right place.

When it comes to the metaphorical interpretation, my understanding of the phrase 'having your heart in the right place' means that people are compassionate, decent human beings who act with good intentions.

And again, I would say this applies to most people. Not all people, obviously, there's definitely wrong'uns out there... but on the whole, despite the protestations of my inner cynic, I would say that generally speaking most people do have their heart in the right place. Not specific subsets of people, not Christian people to the exclusion of all others, just people.

//With a community now seeing many new and existing community groups living off Government aid and finance, their ability to operate and stand for core values is slowly diminishing.//

I don't have a clue what you're on about, mate. I think that perhaps in an effort to not offend anybody, you've couched your sentence in such vague and general terms that it's lost any semblance of meaning. What communities are we talking about? Whose ability to operate and stand for core values is being diminished? How is it being diminished? What are they operating? What core values are we talking about?

Details, mate. We need details. Maybe some specific examples. Vague waffling isn't very helpful.

//So the system is not fixed. It is in major need of repair.//

WHAT SYSTEM!!??

I can't read your mind, mate. I didn't say anything about any 'system' in my previous post, so I don't have a damn clue what you're referring to. 'The system' is about as non-specific as it gets. What kind of system are you talking about? A system for picking winning horses? A system for organising books on library shelves? The digestive system? Throw me a friggin bone here, dude.

Anyway, when I said 'there, fixed' I wasn't referring to the 'the system', whatever that may be.

I was pointing out that I had amended your original post by removing the term 'Christian' and replacing it with 'people' as I felt the statements were more applicable to people in general than the Christian subset of people.

And I still do. Because you haven't given me any reason to think otherwise.

I'm an atheist, and have been since the Vietnam War. However, most of the material that's contained in the New Testament is essentially quite applicable. Christian or not. Believer or not. I don't see anything inherently bad, in following the stuff contained in the New Testament. After all, if you'd found it written on the back of a comic book you'd find more relevance in it?

Think about it? Most of contemporary Society's standards, and rules of behaviour, are to be found contained in the New Testament. Therefore even the most sceptical and incredulous of all Atheist's, can't find too much wrong with what's written therein. Just because It's come from a religious book it doesn't mean it's entirely wrong, nor that it's entirely right either, for that matter? So give it a shot and see for yourself!

Foxy said "I think that we should not just single out one particular religion - but perhaps we should look
at all religions and the good work that they do?"

Answer- Australia is historically a Christian country. Whilst Australia has a secular government not based on scripture- this doesn't mean that the majority of the people want to destroy all trace of religion from public events or our culture. Yes we do need to be mindful that there are those that want to destroy things we value in the name of equality and multiculturalism- this is why there are a growing number of us that belief that Identitism/ Multiculturalism/ Equalitism are dangerous to culture. In recent years there has been great criticism of organised religion such as with the abuse of children in the Catholic Church- however the Catholic Church does in fact preach sexual conservatism in spite of some of its members. The Catholic Church is one of the few organisations with this view. This has brought it under fire from Identity politics and gender based philosophies. "Identity politics" seems by its nature as "anti-Democratic" due to its support of "certain minority groups" over the majority. There are those in our community that believe that the land is the common property of mankind and is not based on culture- this is Communism. Its strange that these same people believe in "property ownership" at the "individual level" but not at the "cultural level". I believe the Christian Churches still play a valuable role in the world- but it is a concern that the Christian Churches are becoming more multicultural and perhaps risk becoming dominated by other than traditional cultures. If we value our traditional Australian culture we need to support it or it will be destroyed. We can't expect those that come from other countries or from marginalised subcultures to value it. Generally I agree- their heart is in the right place.

Jordan Peterson says some interesting things about god being an idealized form of a leader.

Jordan Peterson says some interesting things about god being an idealized form of a leader.
Canem Malum,
Yes, & so many mortals think they can score favours with this mythical power by crapping on everyone else. Just look at the magnificent buildings built by slave labour at the order of some Bishop.

Canem Malum,

I am wary of "them" and "us" attitudes.
Of malignant thought that "other people are
the problem." Yet a healthy society is not
one in which we all agree. It is one in which
those who disagree can do so with honour and
respect for other people's opinions and an
appreciation of our shared humanity.

Without personal commitment to the attributes of
fair play and integrity we are in grave danger.
Malice and intolerance stalk our society. The only
way to protect our freedom is to check the hatred
in our own minds. Our political conversations
must shift away from the mass infantile finger-
pointing that now pervades it.

There is a tendency on so many people's parts to
think that their way is the right way and that
people who disagree with them are bad.

We have to stop dangerous scapegoating, hate speech,
and small-minded intolerance for the views of others.
I'm not sure why you see "multiculturalism" as a
problem. Or what you think the "Australian" way of
life is exactly.

The claim that Christian idealism created modern society is misleading.

Modern Christianity is nothing like it's previous incarnations - the ones that perpetuated slavery, burned people as witches and spread itself by the conquest and the destruction of entire cultures have been there too and so modern society developed in spite of it.

There are many who live idealised Christian lives but there are "pew-packers" who use religion to justify their own personal prejudices. This makes it no different from any other religion and there are many who live decent and productive lives who do not associate with any religion at all.

It's the noisy minority that cause problems in all religions - whether they are the bomb-throwing Muslims, the ultra-orthodox Jews (who literally throw their own crap at schoolgirls) or the fundamentalist Christians who want total control of society.

If anything, religion has been and still is, a handbrake on the progress of society, not the reason for it.

Foxy said (1)"I am wary of "them" and "us" attitudes. (2) Of malignant thought that "other people are
the problem. (3) Yet a healthy society is not one in which we all agree. (4) It is one in which those who disagree can do so with honour and respect for other people's opinions and an appreciation of our shared humanity."

Answer sentence (1)- Everyone talks in these terms.

Answer sentence (2)- Malignant (cancerous) thought- You appear to be saying that people that disagree with you are cancerous.

Answer sentence (3)- Healthy Society- Another spin on the cancerous. But yes not everyone in a society will agree- need to be rules on resolution of disputes- to avoid escalation. In a democratic organisation one of the principles- vote of the majority.

Answer sentence (4)- In public discussion everyone gets two minutes to make their point so people don't dominate the discussion. If these people show disrespect to the public by pushing their views- the people are legitimately open to the consequences of their disrespect. Generally it's reasonable to live and let live (shared humanity) but mankind has a "will to power" that only stops with force. So unless feminism, gayism, immigration, etc is stopped they will demand more and more power. My aim is to find principles that will create stability in my view.
____

Foxy said (1) "Without personal commitment to the attributes of fair play and integrity we are in grave danger. (2) Malice and intolerance stalk our society. (3) The only way to protect our freedom is to check the hatred in our own minds."

Answer sentence (1)- There are a few attributes to follow in society not just "fair play and integrity".

Answer sentence (2)- Everyone is intolerant of everyone. Generally I prefer to be polite but not if it's not reciprocated. There was recently an episode of Q&A where a distinguished panelist quoted research which concluded "everyone is intolerant".

Answer sentence (3)- Hatred- Everyone hates everyone (Bellum omnium contra omnes). But I agree that it's important to look at the basis of our own views and biases.

Foxy said "Our political conversations must shift away from the mass infantile finger- pointing that now pervades it."

Answer- Seems to be saying- everyone that disagrees with me is infantile.
____

Foxy said "There is a tendency on so many people's parts to think that their way is the right way and that people who disagree with them are bad."

Answer- They are a bad "person a" to the "person b" if "person a" promotes something that is not in the "person b" interest. Because the results are bad for "person b". Generally it's good to separate the idea from the person but could be used as a shorthand.
____

Foxy said (1) "We have to stop dangerous scapegoating, (2) hate speech, and (3) small-minded intolerance for the views of others."

Answer- (1) Scapegoating- When a lobby group promotes policy on behalf of a sub-community and the majority of the community disagree and attempt to put that sub-community back in "its place" (a place of power representative of its population)- this is not scapegoating.

Answer- (2) Hate Speech- This appears to be a widely misused term. This has already been widely discussed on the recent Free Speech thread.

Answer- (3) Intolerance- see my comment on intolerance above.

Foxy said (1) "I'm not sure why you see "multiculturalism" as a problem."

Answer-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_multiculturalism

Multiculturalism is a problem because it appears to be...

-While Australia has had some immigration in the past- it has always been contentious
-immigration in recent years appears to have been very high due to education industry (which the universities have benefitted from substantially) and from skilled immigration.
-Australia should be owned by the Australian Culture as we created it
-it may not be supported by the electorate
-it is embodied by high levels of immigration
-cultures other than British culture that created Australian culture will dominate and change Australia very soon
-the new cultures don't care about Australian culture or Australians and will marginalise us
-it takes Australia from the Australian people
-it is more ethnocentric than any other political system in the end
-Australian's will come to be replaced by Indian and Chinese people
-it will destroy cultures
-it penalises Australian's for their relatively good environmental and population management
-it is supported by Corporate Australia to control wages at the expense of Australian workers
-it is supported by Socialist Australia in their "Comint" fight against the employers
-is part of the Identity politics agenda that is attempting to destroy traditional identifiers from Australian society.
-it won't be good for Australia or the world
___

Foxy said (1) "Or what you think the "Australian" way of life is exactly."

Answer- Culture is difficult to define. Many of us believe that a culture can't be separated from the lineage of the people of that culture (closer to nature than nurture)

Agreed! Christianity should rule the world. :D

<<Anyway, when I said 'there, fixed'.....>>

Well it's simply a very easy way to opt out of any further discussion on this topic.

The reality is, when one looks at the wider community at large in Australia only around 36% of the population are volunteers. So making any claim that these people should be exempt from any criticism, is simply wrong. The volunteer rate isn't high, particularly when some people are taking on a lot of volunteer work and some do not volunteer much at all or do not volunteer at all.

https://www.volunteeringaustralia.org/wp-content/uploads/VA-Key-statistics-about-Australian-volunteering-16-April-20151.pdf

On the other hand, Christians (and other religions) are making a very regular commitment, whilst a lot of other people are not. That being like attending a Church or other religious sites once per per week or even more. How many other people are doing that, when one takes the above figures into consideration? Their focus is elsewhere.

Some community groups have folded or closed, simply due to the lack of volunteers. I know this myself being actively involved in volunteering.

<<Whose ability to operate and stand for core values is being diminished? How is it being diminished? What are they operating? What core values are we talking about?>>

A group or body in Australia will likely be established constitutionally having its own aims and objectives. Likely though receiving government funding and assistance, these aims and objectives or as I described it 'core values', will slowly diminish, to the extent the organisation will move away fundamentally from what it originally stood for when it was established due to receiving funds and revenue from large corporations and government.

I have seen this myself and have been appalled.

Canem Malum,

I'm so sorry that you have misinterpreted what
I said, and the points that I was trying to make
did not get through to you. Unfortunately I can
only be responsible for what I write - not how
you interpret what I write. I have no control
over that. However I am glad that you did at least
read what I posted. Even though your interpretation
was the opposite of what was actually being said.

Thank You for taking the time to respond to my post.
Kudos for that.

//Well it's simply a very easy way to opt out of any further discussion on this topic.

The reality is, when one looks at the wider community at large in Australia only around 36% of the population are volunteers.//

And do you actually have any evidence to support the idea that that 36% of the population are more likely to be Christian?

I donate plasma as often as possible through the Red Cross Blood Service - typically once a fortnight, health permitting (although I'm pretty healthy so it's usually not a problem).

I wonder how many of your saintly Christians would be willing to do that... and how many would decide it's too much hassle because they're big jessies who are frightened of needles and a little bit of pain? How many would come over faint and delicate at the thought of having their blood repeatedly pumped out of their body, being centrifuged to remove a fraction of the plasma, then being pumped back in - with the process on full visual display at all times - and decide that's not for them because it all sounds a bit icky?

One in three (33%) Australians will require blood blood products at some point in their life, but a mere one in thirty (3%) donate each year. 3%... either that's a lot of Christians (excluding the JW's for obvious reasons) not donating when they could (and SHOULD) be, or there are more non-Christians in this country than I thought.

Blood and blood products can't be produced synthetically in lab. You have to get them from people. If nobody was willing to donate, the supply would dry up and people would die as a result.

//On the other hand, Christians (and other religions) are making a very regular commitment, whilst a lot of other people are not.//

Looking at the stats for blood donors and the stats for Christians, it would seem a lot of Christians are not making a regular commitment to donate blood. Seems pretty selfish if you ask me. It's not like donating costs you aught; if anything you end up in profit because they give you free food and drink.

//That being like attending a Church or other religious sites once per per week or even more.//

Wow, really? You think that showing up to Church once a week is worthy of high praise, let alone winning the charity big dick contest? How many people's lives does that directly save, Nathan?

I realise throughout the course of this post that I've been somewhat of an arrogant, self-congratulatory twat. I was doing it for a reason: to give you a taste of how you sound when you go around sneering at people and patting yourself on the back for being better than them just because you're Christian.

There are kind, charitable, generous people in all faiths and all walks of life. And to balance them out there are selfish greedy bastards. But the idea that Christians are necessarily better people than us wicked heathens is not only demonstrably false; it's also quite offensive. I think you should find a different barrow to push.

Foxy- Thanks for your feedback. If I misunderstood anything in particular please let me know. Either way I hope you take consolation in that I didn't take anything to heart.

Dear Canem Malum,

Thank You for that.

I've re-read my posts and I should have made things
clearer. I'll try to do better next time.

Toni,

<<I realise throughout the course of this post that I've been somewhat of an arrogant, self-congratulatory twat. I was doing it for a reason: to give you a taste of how you sound when you go around sneering at people and patting yourself on the back for being better than them just because you're Christian.>>

Claiming that I'm Christian, now that's a very bold claim to make, (without any evidence) but I would congratulate you for that claim regardless, as you have not simplistically linked something to Wikipedia, put out an online reference or stated a post is logically fallacious etc.

So that's a start.

<<There are kind, charitable, generous people in all faiths and all walks of life.>>

Good. The reason, I say what I have said, is because many who are religious can be put under a lot of scrutiny, and in the eyes of many this is seen as fine.

On the other hand, as it was pointed out, a reference was made to the low percentage of those who donate blood. The Red Cross though, does not come out and attack people for not donating blood, a positive approach is taken to try and encourage people to contribute where possible.

So in terms of this topic heading, "Christians - their heart is in the right place", I have no hesitation in saying that, because the regular commitment made by those involved is worthy of praise, whether one feels it saves the lives of the wider community, individuals or not.

The overall principle is being sent out that a regular commitment to something (that I feel many simply do not take on as a premise), is important. Christians and others of a religious background are willing to commit to this premise and this is a positive message to send out to the community at large.