Last Saturday (the fourth Saturday of November) was the say Ukraine sets aside to memorialise the Holodomor.

The Holodomor is the generic name given to the famine that occurred in Ukraine in 1932-33.Whether it was an attempted genocide of the Ukrainian people by the Russian leadership, an attempt to destroy Ukrainian opposition or just the theft of food to placate Russians suffering due to the failed collectivisation of Russian agriculture, what is clear is that the death toll was somewhere between 5 and 10 million and that the Russian did nothing to alleviate it and actively worked to stop others doing so..

These type of tragedies sear deep into the national consciousness and transcend generations. This partly explains why there is such ill-feeling in Ukraine (particularly western Ukraine) toward Russians and why the resistance to another conquest is so stout.

In a similar vein, in recent weeks it has been revealed that mass graves have been found in Moldova containing tens of thousands of Jews murdered by the Russians under Lenin. Again, this level of massacre becomes part of the nation conscious and explains why Moldova has little warmth for Russia.
http://worldisraelnews.com/huge-100-year-old-jewish-mass-grave-discovered-in-moldova/

Russia did this type of thing throughout the Soviet Empire, both under Lenin and Stalin, such that, when given the opening, republics exited Russian rule with alacrity.

There are times when animosity between peoples is so deeply entrenched that reconciliation of those peoples is effectively impossible. The animosity might be forcibly suppressed but is never erased.

We see the same thing in the Greek-Turkey stand-off as well as the Balkans where people still fret over atrocities committed in the 15th century.

We do well to recognise that sometimes disagreements between peoples has many more deep-routed causes than might be immediately apparent.

And, the Woke think they can legislate against that ??

That's grand.
Blame Russia for what they did to Jews post Russian revolution, but don't say anything about what the Jews did to Russia to cause it.

Was the Russian Revolution Jewish?
'A hundred years after the Bolsheviks swept to power, historians and contemporaries still struggle to understand the prominent role played by Jews.'
http://www.jpost.com/magazine/was-the-russian-revolution-jewish-514323

You seem to misunderstand the difference between USSR and Bolsheviks and Modern Russia.
The 'Russian Reds' are Bolsheviks.

Regarding Moldova, don't bother mentioning the tens of thousands of people who have protested their pro-western government in recent months, and btw, the graves mentioned in your article were located in Transnistra.

"We do well to recognise that sometimes disagreements between peoples has many more deep-routed causes than might be immediately apparent."

You might do well to recognise the 'hate for Russians' is promoted in part by the western taxpayer sending aid, with Ukrainian nationalist curriculum teaching kids to hate from the moment they start school.

These people bring their ancient hatreds with them to 'multicultural' Australia.

Der mhaze,

You offer: "These type of tragedies sear deep into the national consciousness and transcend generations." but seem to recoil in horror when the same is acknowledged for indigenous Australians.

Why do you think that is?

British historian Robert Conquest wrote "The Harvest
of Sorrow," which was published in 1986 by Oxford
University Press. A book which is a full history of
one of the most horrenduous human tragedies of the
20th century.

"In the case of the Holodomor (Ukrainian famine 1932-33)
this was the first genocide that was methodically planned out
and perpetrated by depriving the very people who were
producers of food of their nourishment (for survival). What
is especially horrific is that the withholding of food was
used as a weapon of genocide and that it was done in a
region of the world known as the "breadbasket of Europe!" -
Prof. Andrea Groziosi, University of Naples.

" In 1832 and 1933 millions of Ukrainians were killed in the
Holodomor, a man made famine engineered by the Soviet Government
of Joseph Stalin. The primary victims of the Holodomor
(literally " death by starvation) were rural farmers and
villagers, who made up rougly 80 percent of Ukraine's
population in the 1930s."

"While it is impossible to determine the precise number of
victims of the Ukraine genocide, most estimates by scholars
range roughly 3.5 million to 7 million (with some estimates
going even higher)."

excuse my typo - it should read the famine was in 1932-33.

As for remembering past grievances?

Should we forget the Holocaust?

Especially those that were/are
still allowed to continue to this day.

Both the Nazis and
the Communists had committed unheard of cruelties.
Concentration camps - on both sides of the front
operated at a high pitch prior to and during the war years.
While the USSR policy of mass murder preceded that of
Nazi Germany, most notably with the artificial Ukrainian
famine of 1932-33, the wholesale destruction of the
Russian peasantry, and later the peasantry and intelligensia
in the occupied territories as well, the Nazis soon matched
Soviet terror with their wholesale slaughter of Jews,
Gypsies, and others in equal numbers, if not proportions of
their populations.

As stated in "The New KGB":

"There is no dispute about the enormity of Hitler's Holocaust.
But it is equally important to be as aware of the accomplishments
of the Soviet Secret Police, which brought death to at
least four times as many Russians, Poles, Jews, Latvians,
Lithuanians, Estonians, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Gypsies,
and Romanians as Hitler did in his eleven years as a leader of
the "1,000-year Reich."

While half of the criminals, the Nazis, have been pursued
all over the world for their crimes, the other half, the communist
criminals, were allowed to go free. They were, in effect, given
tacit permission to continue the operation of their
concentration camps, to expand their draconian systems to
include psychiatric wards, thereby raising torture, suppression,
and murder to a science.

The fact that the process persisted was vividly disclosed to the
free world by Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn in his book - "The
Gulag Archipelago, " and many other authors as well.

Yes some grievances do last for generations - especially if they
are allowed to continue and they do last also to try to ensure that
they will not happen again

Just a reminder:

The USSR was a blood-stained regime
In which millions were murdered as a daily routine
Might is Right was their slogan of choice
Dissenting cries were not given a voice

History has written of the many disposed
The frozen infernos have now been exposed
Putin and Stalin are two of a kind
Yet some in the West to this are still blind

Putin like Stalin will take what he wants
He will kill and destroy those who fight in response
The world can't allow this rampage of terror
Not protecting Ukraine would be a huge error

First the Ukraine, then Romania
Followed by Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania
Do we want the USSR re-instated
Ruling Eastern Europe unabated?

The world must unite and be fully aware
That this is a battle that we all need to share
Putin must be stopped in his tracks
Otherwise no sovereign nation can truly relaz

First the Ukraine, then Romania
Followed by Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania
Foxy,
Something tells me that Putin has no interest in those countries, only Ukraine !

indyvidual,

Putin has ever interest in these countries.
He's made it clear that he'd like to reconstitute
the Soviet Empire. However there's something
very powerful standing in Putin's way - that's
Article 5 of NATO - an attack on one is an
attack on all. It is exactly why NATO has been
reinforcing NATO'S Eastern flank and why these
have joined NATO.

Armchair, OLO's resident Russian apologist, races to make up excuses for the Bolsheviks.

AC writes: "Blame Russia for what they did to Jews post Russian revolution, but don't say anything about what the Jews did to Russia to cause it."

So the Jews had it coming to them? AC with his usual absence of logic tells us that the Bolsheviks were Jews. Therefore the Bolsheviks killing Jews was really a Jew on Jew massacre? Logic takes a holiday.

But my point wasn't that the tens of thousands murdered by the evil ideology were Jews. They were people. That they were Jews is secondary...except if you want to make up excuses.

".. the graves mentioned in your article were located in Transnistra".

Which is in Moldova, unless you are a Russian apologist in which case you slavishly accept the claims that it is part of mother Russia.

AC asserts: "You seem to misunderstand the difference between USSR and Bolsheviks and Modern Russia."

Since I hadn't mentioned the USSR or the Bolsheviks I wonder how he'd know that. But...well it is AC.

The regimes might change and with it the rhetoric. But peoples hang on to their essential being. Putin is just a Tsar by another name. Stalin also. Lenin especially so. The essence of the people who perpetrated the Holodomor, the Moldovan massacres and things like the Katyn massacre and the rape of Berlin is unchanged. Firing rockets into residential areas just to terrorise the population is very much the Russian way of war (and peace) and helps explain why the peoples of eastern Europe are determined to resist Putin with all they have.

SR wrote: "You offer: "These type of tragedies sear deep into the national consciousness and transcend generations." but seem to recoil in horror when the same is acknowledged for indigenous Australians."

Do I "recoil in horror"? I don't think so. But you will of coarse be able to offer examples because you wouldn't just make that up, would you?




It should also be noted that I'm not making value judgements here. I'm merely explaining that historic animosity informs current animosity.




I'll give another example. I have an acquaintance (friend of a business colleague) who is Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim). He has a visceral hatred of Serbs. During the Serbian wars of the 1990s my friend's uncle and his family were captured and put into a camp. One day Serb soldiers entered the camp and dragged all the young women out and into an adjoining building. For hours the screams of the violated girls could heard until gun-fire put an end to it. The Serbs spent days ridiculing the Bosnian men for not being able to protect their women.

This story is now part of my friend's family's heritage and is passed on within the family. The nations of Serbia and Bosnia may now be at peace, but the thousands of stories like this will ensure that animosity will be carried forth into each generation and will almost certainly raise it's head at some time in the future.

"So the Jews had it coming to them?"

I never said that, but now you have.
Maybe it's you that thinks that since you mentioned it?
Why even suggest it?

Do I seem like an active and devout member of the NKVD to you?
Do you think I was alive in Russia in the 1930's?
Is it my fault this happened to others in the years prior to my being born?

And even if I did think they had it coming to them;
Then thoughts are still completely different to actions are they not?
I didn't commit those acts and I resent you trying to tar me with the brush of those that did.

Do you wish to portray me as someone who would commit these acts?
If so, then grow up.

It's really not my fault if Jews want to brag about their involvement in the Russian Revolution in the Jerusalem Post.

How many Russians themselves died under the Soviet Union?
It makes Palestinian losses under Israeli occupation look like a drop in the ocean.

I could suggest your anti-Russian sentiment is actually Pro-Ukrainian Jew sentiment.

Who runs Ukraine?
Zelensky, Shmyhal, Reznikov, Yermak, all Jewish.
Funny how Jews actually are involved in a lot of major wars...
What about Zelensky's backer Ihor Kolomoisky?
http://www.haaretz.com/2014-10-18/ty-article/.premium/the-most-powerful-jew-in-the-world/0000017f-ea28-d639-af7f-ebffe41b0000

So what now?
If I post a link to Haaretz, maybe you can accuse me of carrying out NAZI war crimes too, with your logic?

It's not my fault you tried to blame Russia for things that happened to Jews after the Russian revolution, but failed to acknowledge Jews own hand in this eventuality.

Really what did you expect?

All cultures are NOT equal, and I am very pleased to belong to one which is NOT burdened with ancient hatreds and grudges. I am not pleased with the appallingly stupid policy of multiculturalism, whereby we see many of the cranks who are still seething about something that happened generations ago in Eastern Europe or elsewhere, coming here.

"AC asserts: 'You seem to misunderstand the difference between USSR and Bolsheviks and Modern Russia.'

Since I hadn't mentioned the USSR or the Bolsheviks I wonder how he'd know that. But...well it is AC. "

Exactly.
Did you consider the possibility that it was actually your failure to mention them?
You referred to them as 'Russians' instead of 'Soviets' in your first few opening paragraphs which is relevant considering they're no longer the same thing.
Maybe it was an honest mistake, with built-in bias)

You try to tar me with a 'murderers' brush.
Then you try to tar today's Russians with a Soviet brush,
Which itself was a Jewish-Socialist brush.
- And lets not forget that socialism actually came from the West, from England and Europe and imported TO Russia.

Jews funded and carried out the Russian Revolution.
They funded Hitler too, through the Warburgs and their bank in Hamburg.
- As well as other American Industrialists... which is why they never bombed IG Farben, where the Jews were kept in concentration camps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#/media/File:FARBEN_DWORY.png
Then you have the fact the modern state of Israel was founded on terrorism with the King David Hotel bombing, and the ruling Likud party founded by those same terrorists who carried out the bombing. (Menachem Begin)

Truth is stranger than fiction.

[Cont.]
Jews may have even done worse to the Palestinians that what was done to them, and even worse they've been doing it for much longer and still keep doing the same thing.

It's a bit hypocritical to complain about being treated like animals when they continue to treat others the same way.

Tell me why my Great Grandfather was in Gaza as a 1st Australian Lighthorseman earning a Distinguished Service Order fighting for the blood-stained future state of Israel?

"Again, this level of massacre becomes part of the nation conscious and explains why Moldova has little warmth for Russia."

Now tell me why Europe historically had little warmth for Jews?
Everything you say here just seems to come back and kick you in the butt.

Maybe you conveniently forgot the part Jews paid in helping to establish the soviet empire.

And yes, it's sad that so many 'people' die in these conflicts.
(maybe we can talk about Pro-Jewish warmongering neoconservatives?)

But your article wasn't about 'people' was it mhaze?
- It was about hating Russians.

"First the Ukraine, then Romania
Followed by Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania"

I think Foxy is very right that Putin's initial aims looked beyond the Donbass and even beyond Ukraine. At the very least he would have been eyeing off the permanent re-attachment of Transnistra irrespective of the guarantees of NATO. Poland and the Baltic states were right to be apprehensive about where he would or intended to stop.

But that was in February. The world is now very different after the Russian forces have been revealed as a paper-tiger. It is said that Russia entered the war with the supposed second best army in the world and now has the second best army in Ukraine.

While Putin and his henchmen may still desire to extend the Russian borders to the fullest extent of the old Soviet Union, surely even he now realises that is out of reach.

Russia's destiny is to become a vassal state of the Chinese empire.

"It is said that Russia entered the war with the supposed second best army in the world and now has the second best army in Ukraine."

- Firstly, you got this part wrong.
Even though it is a war, your terminology is wrong, don't think 'war', think 'special military operation'.
This is important because you need to understand that the special military operation was constrained by its own terms.

"I think Foxy is very right that Putin's initial aims looked beyond the Donbass and even beyond Ukraine." No.

He didn't even take in enough troops to adequately take Kiev, let alone western Ukraine.

I think the Russian withdrawl from Kiev was an act of goodwill on the Russian side, as they thought a peace deal was going to be reached, but Zelensky renegged at the last minute at the request of the US and UK and decided to continue the war.

The tactical withdrawal from Kherson (all things given) was a good move despite the optics of defeat, Russian and allied forces were in a bad situation there, tying up many troops and at the whim of Ukraine destroying the Kharkovka dam and flooding the entire area.
By moving back to the other side of the river, they protected themselves from potential defeat here and lead the AFU into a trap where they themselves now face a difficult situation and heavy losses in Kherson.

I think the Russians thought that there was no point risking defeat or taking heavy losses themselves when in a month or 2 when they'd have 370k extra troops on hand to take it back.

Russia has moved to fighting a long war, a battle of attrition.
Russians aren't specifically trying to take land, as much as they are firstly trying to inflict heavy losses on Ukrainian troops.

Withdrawing from Izyum was a mistake as it has now left Belgorod exposed to attack with Ukrainian forces potentially able to enter the Russian homeland.

This discussion is a great example of the standards
that we should be seeking in our discussions on this
forum. We may not agree on some things - but keeping
things civil is important. And that has been the
case here.

I thank mhaze for raising
this important subject and continuing with it in a
civil manner.

Before I leave this discussion - I would just like to add
one final thought - which came from American lawyer -
David E. Springer:

"At all times, vigilance is the price of liberty.
We must remain vigilant because while it might be us today,
it will be some other group down the road decades from now.
The measure of our society over history is our fidelity to
our principles. We must remind our government and our
people to remain faithful to those principles or otherwise
our society, like so many in the past, will be swept on the
ash heap of history."

Armchair wrote: "I never said that,..." [that the Jews had it coming]

Well you kinda did. I wrote about 10s of 1000s of people murdered by the Russians and that they were Jewish. You took that as an entre into 4 anti-Jewish tirades.

But the funniest (or saddest) boast of AC was this..."You referred to them as 'Russians' instead of 'Soviets' in your first few opening paragraphs which is relevant considering they're no longer the same thing".

Somehow in the fevered mind that is AC's Russian sycophancy, the actions during the Soviet era weren't the actions of the Russians. Somehow the revolution had erased the Russians and replaced them with the hitherto unknown race called 'Soviets' and presumably the events of 1991 erased this new 'Soviet' race and replaced them with Russians.

What a berk.

"Even though it is a war, your terminology is wrong, don't think 'war', think 'special military operation'."

Translation: even though its a war don't call it that because uncle Vlad doesn't like it.

You're nitpicking, is that all you've got?

Don't whinge about Jewish graves in the former Soviet Union when Jews themselves helped to initiate the creation of the Soviet Union.
- Or at the very least, don't whinge about it without telling the full story.
Do you think Russian people did not also suffer during the Soviet era?
I think they paid a huge price for this Jewish-Socialist experiment.

"anti-Jewish tirades"
- That's what the truth is often referred to as by the pro-zionist brigade.
It's perfectly fine to be anti-Russian, anti-Qatari, anti-Indigenous, anti-Chinese, anti-Iranian, anti-Venezuelan, anti-Trump or anti-anything-else though, stupid hypocrites.

Perfectly fine for Israeli's to chant 'Death to Arabs' on live TV, but heaven forbid anyone dare criticise or tell the truth about Israel.

No One Will Talk To Israeli Reporters At World Cup Over Palestine
http://youtu.be/wkZDtJQ7xBc

"The regimes might change and with it the rhetoric. But peoples hang on to their essential being. Putin is just a Tsar by another name. Stalin also. Lenin especially so. The essence of the people who perpetrated the Holodomor, the Moldovan massacres and things like the Katyn massacre and the rape of Berlin is unchanged. Firing rockets into residential areas just to terrorise the population is very much the Russian way of war (and peace) and helps explain why the peoples of eastern Europe are determined to resist Putin with all they have."

Looks like the Israeli's are hanging onto their essential being too.
- Hate towards others.

Looks like some people are determined to resist Israel with all they have too.

Pretty much every bit of criticism you have laid against others in support of Israel, can be equally leveled back at Israel in support of others, and you fail to see how stupid you look trying.

The rest of what you say is just ignorant crap, hardly worth my time picking to pieces, which you know I'm quite capable of doing.

Russia will target military assets if placed in residential areas.
That's a crime by the Ukrainian government against it's own people under international law.
And Russia is firing missiles at military targets, which include electrical infrastructure.
If Ukraine tries to shoot those missiles down, and they end up hitting a residential area, then that is not the same as Russia deliberately targeting civilians.
But hey, we can't let truth get in the way of a good narrative can we...

I don't see you mentioning Ukrainians committing summary executions not only of people they deem to be Russian collaborators, but also of foreign fighters on their own side who quietly joined the war to support them.
They don't want the wounded foreign fighters identified as it will embarass the countries they came from so they get a bullet in the back of the head and their fingers cut off.
Ukraine cares so little about it's own fighters it won't collect the dead, and instead leaves the corpses in the streets and paddocks to rot.

- From what I hear, they do this so they don't have to officially recognise military losses, and also because they are fudging the numbers so their commanders can keep getting paid their troops wages whilst also asking the West for evermore dollars to sustain the military.

"I don't see you mentioning Ukrainians committing summary executions..."

I didn't mention anything about the current war. My post was about how past atrocities, perceived or otherwise, inform present grievances.

It was you who saw mention of past Russian atrocities and decided you needed to regurgitate all the reasons you think we need to love Vlad and his henchmen.

Hi AC,

With a festive season just around the corner the following
few thoughts are appropriate:

'Twas the night before Christmas and Santa's a wreck
How to live in a world that's politically correct?
His workers no longer answer to "Elves"
"Vertically Challenged" they now call themselves
And labour conditions at the North Pole
Are alleged by the unions to stifle the soul

Something special is needed a gift that he might
Give to us all without starting a fight
A gift that would satisfy with no indecision
Where each group of people in every religion
Every race, gender, and hue
Would finally see that the time is past due

Santa could finally decide on a gift beyond worth
For all of mankind to enjoy -
PEACE ON EARTH!

Hey mhaze,
"I didn't mention anything about the current war."

- Are you sure, you wanna bet?

"But that was in February. The world is now very different after the Russian forces have been revealed as a paper-tiger. It is said that Russia entered the war with the supposed second best army in the world and now has the second best army in Ukraine."... and more.
- You can go back and read your own comments.

It seems I forgot someone though...

Boris Johnson is Jewish. Hard to believe, since he is st@pid. Traces origin to Moscow Rabbi.
http://youtu.be/x51Sd0_rB0c

Should I be surprised?
Stupid damn wars.

Seriously, 500k dead and wounded Ukrainians 100bln spent (maybe more all countries combined), Russia ready to go on the offensive as soon as the ground hardens for winter with 300k+ reinforcements moving onto the front lines, and you think they are winning?
What exactly have they won?

British and European economies and industries destroyed...

ordo ab chao
novus ordo seclorum

Peace on earth would be great Foxy,
Unfortunately things are headed in the other direction.

[Cont.]
mhaze, you stated
".. the graves mentioned in your article were located in Transnistra.

Which is in Moldova, unless you are a Russian apologist in which case you slavishly accept the claims that it is part of mother Russia."

People refer to Transnistra as a 'Russian-backed breakaway republic', but that's not exactly true.
Transnistran's wanted to stay with the USSR when Moldova became independent.
Transnistrans didn't breakaway from Moldova, it was Moldova that brokeaway from the USSR.

- Sometimes facts matter.

In so far as the graves themselves are concerned,
I hope they're treated respectfully and with dignity regardless of who they were, which is a whole lot better than some of the USSRs victims.
- And I hope they're not used to stir up more conflict.

AC,

Are you really that desperate?

I didn't mention anything about the current war in my original post but did come to it after the discussion had moved elsewhere - primarily due to your anxiety to defend all things Russian.

"and you think they are winning?"

Well I didn't say that. What I did say was that the Russian Army has been revealed to be a paper-tiger that is incapable of seriously threating NATO nations. As to the war, unlike you who is constantly assuring us that Russian victories are just around the corner, I'll await the outcome. We'll know a lot more come next May.

I don't particularly care who wins. Like Kissinger I hope they both lose.

This thread was concerned with those who have passed
- But what about the living?

I just read an article that talks of the lack of healthcare workers and kids with serious conditions who aren't able to get treatment due to staff shortages.

'How many more children need to suffer': Mother demands action after child's scan put off multiple times
http://www.9news.com.au/national/westmead-hospital-anaesthetist-mother-demands-action-after-childs-scan-put-off-multiple-times/77f49f1b-1d15-41db-a84d-31835aaa7607

"The neurology team just said, 'thank goodness you brought her back to the ED to get us to review her'. Otherwise things could have been a lot different for us," Rothe said.
She said she sat in a ward for more than a week because there weren't enough staff to do the surgery.
"They either call you or turn around and say, 'we can't do it there's just not enough facilities, theatres, too many kids'," Rothe said.
"Apparently that morning they had 30 kids needing life-saving surgery, so she got bumped off the list."

Lets contrast that info with another article.

More than 4,000 unvaccinated health workers in Qld suspended with full pay
http://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/more-than-4000-unvaccinated-health-workers-in-qld-suspended-with-full-pay/news-story/0d7f8d3a00e042692eee29dc025e84b6

"Health Minister Yvette D’Ath announced 4,000 unvaccinated health care staff would be suspended this week with full pay leading to some 'disruptions' for Queensland Health.
The Health Minister claimed she was confident the work force of 110,000 could cope with the loss saying “we expected this."

Granted the stories are from different states, but I expect it's the same across the board.
Is it wrong to think that measures previously taken are now coming back to bite us, with kids having to pay the price?

What makes healthcare workers vaccine hesitant?
http://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/what-makes-healthcare-workers-vaccine-hesitant

>>"They’re concerned about safety, they’re not convinced about efficacy, and they’re worried about side effects," Dr Williams said.<<