Penny Wong has just announced:

"Today the Government has reaffirmed Australia’s previous and longstanding position that Jerusalem is a final status issue that should be resolved as part of any peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian people.

This reverses the Morrison Government’s recognition of West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel."
http://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/penny-wong/media-release/reversal-recognition-west-jerusalem

Well done.

A move I fully support as do most of the other nations of the world.

Morrison doing this to curry favour with Trump was embarrassing. Glad to see some adults in charge.

I guess David Singer will be pounding the keyboard for a new article with his criticism and outrage.
- Expect it in the next day or so...

I can't see why Israel should be bothered about it.

What is a "capital" anyway?
It's all just childish games!

However, this reversal does not help the Israeli peace camp:

WESTERN Jerusalem was always an uncontroversial part of Israel and will therefore never be subject to negotiations. Capital or otherwise, bundling it together with the occupied Eastern Jerusalem, ignoring the border between the two, only detracts from the clear distinction that the Israeli peace camp makes between the two.

Doing this during an Israeli election campaign can only weaken the Israeli peace camp and help Netanyahu win and form a government in coalition with Israel's Nazi (Otzma Yehudit) party, whose agenda is to expel all Arabs and make both intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews and homosexuality punishable criminal offenses. Is that perhaps what the Australian government tried to achieve by making this declaration at this particular time rather than waiting 2-3 weeks??

SR,

As West Jerusalem is recognised by the UN as Israeli and is not "occupied" territory and is the capital of Israel this move by Labor is just another episode of virtue signalling.

A petty and pointless move.

Only hours prior to this decision, Wong lied to The Guardian that recognition of West Jerusalem as capital of Israel was to be reverseed by the Albanese government.

As former Labor MP, Michael Danby says, this is unprofessional student politics and childishness.

Australia is now in step with the rest of the world.
Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem has never been
recognized international. Only a handful of countries
including Kosovo and Guatemala joined the US in
recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Australia
has now gone back to its original position with the
hope that this will encourage peace talks between
the Israelis and the Palestinians.

The status of Jerusalem remains one of the thorniest
issues in the decades long conflict and has caused
numerous rounds of violence. The problem has always
been that Israel has asserted that the entire city
is exclusively theirs - denying any Palestinian connection
to their ancient, spiritual, cultural, and economic capital.

It will be interesting to see if any presidential
candidate in the US will have
the guts to take up the gauntlet that the Australian
government has bravely tossed back down regarding Jerusalem.
It could possibly help encourage the Israelis and Palestinians to
get further peace talks under way

One can only hope and pray.

Although I'm not holding my breath.
Especially if the fraudster Trump becomes a
presidential candidate. Unless of course he
gets jailed first. As I said - one can only
hope and pray. Like hoping Putin gets what he
deserves. One can only hope.

A Pantomine to suit the actors.
Even the Roman occupying army recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital.
Does an invading Arab army cancel that ?
Well Mohammad said that land once occupied by muslims remains Islamic
land forever. So the original occupiers lose their rights forever.
Hmmm
Now you know the meaning of Eurabia .

Hi Bazz,

Do we recognize our Indigenous peoples claims to
this country of their ancestry?

Roman Britain was a period in classical antiquity.
Does Italy make any claims to the UK today?
Does the UK make any claims to the US? And the
lists can go on and all sorts of claims can be made.

What is now Western Jerusalem has been a rural area in Biblical (and Roman) times - it is not the "Jerusalem" that is mentioned in the Bible, which is completely within occupied Eastern Jerusalem. In fact, some places in what is now Western Jerusalem served (akin to capitals today) as regional control/taxation posts by the empires that controlled Israel/Judea at the time (Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece), well outside Jewish cities.

Israeli elections will be held on the 1st of November.

These elections can determine whether internally-divided Israel takes a peaceful approach or a Nazi approach, the odds being about equal.

The Israeli peace-camp always differentiated between Israeli Western Jerusalem and occupied Eastern Jerusalem, whereas National-Camp governments forced the erasure of the [green] line between them in school-books, maps and road/rail-projects.

Australia used to support the Israeli peace camp by keeping this [green] line alive, by explicitly insisting that it is only WESTERN Jerusalem that is Israel's capital. This support has now been withdrawn, and in the given delicate situation, that could become the straw which breaks the camel's back and lands Israel under the darkest Nazi regime, a regime which among other evils will annex the West Bank and forcibly expel its non-Jewish denizens.

In just two weeks, will Netanyahu and his Nazi companions say "Thank you, Australia"?

Labor must be so proud to receive praise from terrorist group Hamas for its action against Israel.

The current Labor government has received praise from
many governments internationally including the US
and the UK - for trying to get
Israel and Palestine to the peace table and making
their reversal of the recognition of West Jerusalem
as the capital of Israel as part of the peace talks.

Foreign Minister Penny Wong said that the early 2018
move had undermined peace and had - " put Australia out
of step with the majority of the international community."

She stressed that Australia remained a "steadfast friend"
to Israel. It's embassy will stay in Tel Aviv.

This decision announced by Foreign Minister Penny Wong will
re-inforce Canberra's representation as a middle-power seeking
to navigate its way in the shifting sands of Middle East politics.
Importantly Australia's neighbours in the region including
Indonesia have welcomed the decision.

Of course this decision has elicited a predictable reaction
from Israel and its supporters in Australia. Nothing new there.

Penny Wong is in my ears and in my eyes.
Dar ta da dah.
Dar ta da dah.
Wet beneath the blue DFATy skies
She negotiate and meanwhile back.

Like-a the Chorus says http://www.google.com/search?q=penny+lane+lyrics&rlz=1C1CHMO_enAU908AU908

The latest news indicates that the Labor caucus is not united on the issue, which still has to pass through the party room.

Even the US Democrats have confirmed Donald Trump's policy to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

As long as Israel itself wants it that way, so it should be. Labor has received a well deserved spray from the Israeli PM.

It's just another victory in the culture wars for petty (but deadly dangerous) little Labor. They have to work hard and fast to change Australia to their Marxist Utopia in three years.

That there are 600,000 Muslims and only 100,000 Jews in Australia also needs mentioning.

Wong's announcement has rightly been denounced as "sheer arrogance" for the way in which she has assumed she and Labor can determine another nation's capital city, against that nation's wishes. One writer wondered what if China told us that they didn't recognise Canberra and that they were moving their embassy to Uluru.

BTW. Australian Jewish spokesman David Adler advises that there is not, and never was, a 'west' Jerusalem. There is only one Jerusalem.

With Wong's recent reversal of the $10 million tax cuts to UNRWA said to be funding Palestinian terror killings, Labor will be well in with HAMAS and other ME terror groups and dodgy dealers.

With this government, and a shrivelled up Liberal "opposition", Australia is well and truly rooted.

Penny Wong these days has a lot to say
She wants to brighten everyone's day
The aim is for peace in the Middle East
With the surety not one will get fleeced

Supporting Wong we all should do
From Christians, Muslims, and even Jews
Jerusalem's a city from which we can learn
To love each other and have peace return

A city so ancient in antiquity
Should be able to survive without bigotry
Lets encourage the wise to sit down and talk
And look for answers and not balk

The city can easily belong equally
With both sides making their claims peacefully
Greed should be left outside the door
Ending with less, if they ask for more!

"Australia is well and truly rooted?"

Hardly.

A tree's beauty lies in its branches
But it's strength lies in its roots!

A Malay proverb says:

A tree with strong roots
laughs at storms.

Dear Ttbn,

«As long as Israel itself wants it that way, so it should be.»

Israel as such does not want it that way - only half of its population, which in Israel is called "Right-wing" (only partially corresponding to the Western political concept of 'Left'/'Right') or "The National Camp", and whose factually-false slogan, that "there is not, and never was, a 'west' Jerusalem. There is only one Jerusalem" was indeed expressed by David Adler.

Outside of Israel, Donald Trump is one of the very few "leaders" who agree with that slogan.

The previous Australian declaration that Western Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, helped in shattering that slogan.

Apparently, just as Israel is getting ready for general elections, the Australian Labor party has joined forces with the Israeli "Right" against the Israeli Labor party!

That would not help any Middle-East peace efforts one iota.

---

Dear Foxy,

What can possibly be wrong about WESTERN Jerusalem being that capital of Israel?

“Australia is well and truly rooted“

So too is Israel and so too is the US itself, for exactly the same reasons.

Lapid and PM Mummy’s boy are two extreme US sycophants.

Lapid recently shot himself and his chances of election in the foot, by cow towing to Biden handing over a broad area of Israelis economic zone to Lebanon, the terrorist State of Hespollah.

That one alone was a free gift to Netanyahu, who Israelis now would be suicideally prone not to re-elect him as a strong man like Trump, who stands in the US as a probable candidate for re-election as President for the same reasons.

Dan

Yuyutsu,

Israel wants all of Jerusalem as its capital.
Hence the problem.

«Israel wants all of Jerusalem as its capital.»

Half of Israel.

The other half wants only Western Jerusalem as capital.

Is there anything wrong in what the second half wants?
Why else would you oppose them?
Why else would you indirectly, by opposing them, support those Israelis who want ALL of Jerusalem to be their capital?

Hi Foxy re LIDIA THORPE NAUGHTY

Off Topic

The Greens' famous Caucasian* Aboriginal activist and Aussie Flag "Waver" is in a spot of bother.

* noting photo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidia_Thorpe

The ABC Reports today http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-20/bandt-asks-thorpe-to-resign-as-senate-deputy/101557298

"Greens senator Lidia Thorpe has resigned as the party’s deputy leader in the Senate.

The ABC revealed earlier today that Senator Thorpe “briefly dated” the ex-president of the Victorian Rebels outlaw motorcycle gang, Dean Martin, while sitting on a parliamentary law enforcement committee.

Senator Thorpe acknowledged she did not disclose the relationship to Mr Bandt.

Within an hour of the ABC's report, Mr Bandt called a press conference where he repeated that he was unaware of the matter until contacted by the ABC...."

Karma?

This is more vacuous virtue signalling by Labor morons.

West Jerusalem is recognised by the UN and the world as a part of Israel since 1949. Israel's parliament and government are based in west Jerusalem and the embassies in Tel Aviv have little to no interaction with the Israeli government to the point where most of these governments have "consulates" in west Jerusalem where all the embassy work actually occurs.

Foxy takes the cake in explaining this folly as "because Israel wants the whole of Jerusalem". But then the left has never been discouraged by pissing away taxpayers' money.

Hi Maverick,

Shock after shock.

Liz Truss has resigned. And now this mess with Lidia
Thorpe.

I still keep hoping that the next news will be Putin's
been removed. Ah well.

I guess we can live and hope.

As for Thorpe? Bandt will have to deal with that one.
I'm just surprised that he didn't know anything about
her private life - when his office had been told. Perhaps
Bandt didn't think it mattered because the guy had left
the bikie gang before he got involved with Thorpe?
Not sure if this is a storm in a teacup or not?

We'll have to wait and see what else develops.
It's a field for the media - that's for sure.
And scandal does sell doesn't it?

The Victorian election is just around the corner.
Matthew Guy must be jumping up and down.

Now back to Jerusalem.

The 1967 war resulted in the occupation by Israel
of East Jerusalem and the Palestinian territories,
and ended the armistice demarcation line between
the eastern and western sections but re-opened with
new vehemence the debate over the two competing
claims.

Israel, which annexed East Jerusalem in 1980 considers
"Jerusalem, whole and united, is the capital of Israel,"
and wants the city to "remain forever under Israel's
sovereignty."

It's "de facto" control on the ground has enabled
it to invest vast resources and efforts into changing
the physical and demographic characteristics of the city.

The Israeli claims to Jerusalem however have not been
recognized by the international community which rejects
the acquisition of territory by war and considers any
changes on the ground - illegal and invalid.

On the other hand, the Palestinians have claimed East
Jerusalem as the capital of a future independent state
of Palestine to be established in the territories occupied
since 1967.

The status of the Holy Places has a special significance
in the debate and proposals have been made for their
internationalization.

The problem of how to reach a mutually acceptable compromise
between these two irreconcilable positions and concerns has
acquired particular urgency with no acceptable solution yet
in sight.

Dear Foxy,

«The problem of how to reach a mutually acceptable compromise
between these two irreconcilable positions and concerns...»

Hold right there.

So long as you believe that there are only 2 positions, ignoring the reality as well as its subtlety and timing, you will never reach any solution.

To begin with, there are many more than 2 sides to the conflict you want to solve. Both Israel and "Palestine" are deeply divided societies. Israel is heading towards a civil war while the "Palestinians" are already in it, yet you keep speaking of them as if they were single entities with single positions...

Are you aware that Israelis do not agree among them on ANYTHING?
Are you aware that Israel is heading into elections in 11 days?
Are you aware that Israel has a Nazi party which is predicted to take a double-digit number of seats out the Knesset's 120 seats, becoming Israel's 3rd-largest party?
Are you aware that the agenda of that Nazi party includes:
1) Annex all occupied territories.
2) Expel/evict all Arabs and their supporters (i.e. their political opponents) from the entire bigger Israel.
3) Incorporate Jewish law (the Torah) into Israeli law.
4) make marriage and sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews, as well as homosexuality and abortions, illegal, punishable with 5 years imprisonment.
Here is the "cleaner" public-face of their agenda in English: http://ozma-yeudit.com/the-platform-of-otzma-yehudit-jewish-strength/

Are you aware that Netanyhau, a corrupt criminal who would do ANYTHING to escape prison by becoming prime-minister again, intends to include this Nazi party in his coalition and form government with them?
Are you aware that his chances of winning this elections are about 50%?

Are you aware that Labor's declaration at this very sensitive time, that Western Jerusalem is not Israel's capital plays straight into Netanyahu's arms, increasing his chances to be elected? That this is also a stab in the backs of all peace lovers, including of the Israeli Labor party?

There is a report that is worth a read from the
Center for strategic and international studies.
It's an analysis of the Israel and Palestinian
situation:

http://csis.org/analysis/israel-and-palestinians-two-state-solution-five-failed-states

It explains things much better than I can.

Dear Foxy,

«It explains things much better than I can.»

Is your estimate of your own knowledge so low - that even such a hazy superficial opinion-piece describes reality better than yourself?

You sounded so confident earlier when claiming that Australia's denial that Western Jerusalem is Israel's capital, is a step towards peace in the Middle-East.

Sadly, it seems that Australia's decision at this particular time pushes Israel into a dark Nazi era, where "peace" means "no Arabs" (and also no opposition, no homosexuals, no intermarriage and rule by the Torah). Are you still proud of this decision?

Hi Foxy

As Bandt's Office knew a long time beforehand I think he was orally briefed long before now.

Even a pure Green like Bandt would follow the Politician's Maxim that unless the evidence was written down and is staring him in the face the briefing didn't happen of he "forgot".

A staffer confessing there was an oral briefing long ago might be the next Act in this drama.

Cheers Mavs

For goodness sakes why is it that no one posting here takes into
account that the two state solution defies the Koran and no moslem
can promote it without risking blasphemy.
Why do you think this argument goes on and on.
The chant "From the River to the Sea" is what it is about.
The Palestinians have said it often enough that the Jews must be
driven out of the Middle East or all killed so there can be no Jews
left in the area.

Why is it you do not believe them ?

Bazz

You are right. There will never be a 'two state' set up. There will never be any peace. As the only democracy in the ME, Israel needs to be supported by the West. The brave little country will always be under threat, and the anti-Semitic government of Australia has given more encouragement to Israel's enemies. The ALP has certainly bottomed out since Bob Hawke led it.

Yuyutsu,

The link I gave from the Center for Strategic and
International Studies (CSIS) has received from
Media Bias/Fact Check an overall rating as being
the least biased on balanced story selection and
minimal editorial bias. They've been rated Very High
for factual reporting due to exceptional sourcing of
information and a clean fact-check record.

I had assumed that you would understand the points
that were being made - which I thought were fair.
I am not interested in any personal attacks. I have no
intention of apologising for the views I cite - sourced
from reputable sites.

I have no further wish to continue this conversation with
you. It would be pointless to do that.

Hi Maverick,

Isn't politics interesting?

If it's not one thing it's another.
All we can do is watch from the side-lines
and pick our teams. Although nowadays it's
becoming harder to do.

I honestly wish the current government all the
best in what they're trying to achieve. They
haven't been in for that long - and they've
got a lot to deal with.

As for Lidia Thorpe? She showed us an ugly side
of politics - which could have been better handled.
But at least she wasn't the suck-up that Jacinta
Price was/is. I 'll be watching to see where
Thorpe's future lies. If she's given another chance
that is. It's up to Bandt - if he can see any political\
advantage in keeping her. - that is. We'll have to wait and
see.

Hi Bazz,

Lets get some things straight. The possibility of a
lasting deal between Israel and Palestine appears to
be as far away as ever. And what we've seen from
the history of failed negotiations tells us that it
is because Israel prefers the status quo.

Their military oppressive regime and continued
occupation with no signs of it being dis-mantled
can't be blamed on the Palestinians. Neither can
the violence which invariably becomes more attractive
to those who have no others means of upsetting the
status quo.

Until Israel is forced to change its tune - nothing will
eventuate. Why don't you believe that and stop shifting
the blame. Put it where it belongs - on Israel. The abused
have become the abusers - Israel does not want to negotiate.

Yuyutsu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmYJ1fIhQBU

Characterising Ben-Givr as a prancing NAZI on Israel’s Saturday night live, re this link, will only win votes, so that’s actually a good outcome.

Dan.

Foxy, I don't think you read my post.
There cannot be any question of Israel remaining in the Middle East.
They MUST leave or be killed.
That is what the Koran requires. Any land once held by Moslems
always remains Islamic land. Even if recovered by the previous owners.
That is why any Moslem that sells land to others is killed.
What do you expect Israel to do, commit mass suicide ?
All pack up and leave ? That is the suggested solution.
You forget that it is the Arabs who are the occupiers.
There is no way around this problem.
There was no solution in the 8th century and there is still no solution.
If you want to see another example of this look no further than India.

Albanese has admitted that this sorry situation could have been handled better.

Oops! Not such a smart Foreign Minister after all.

We have seen a huge diplomatic bungle by an Australian government.

Criticism from a friendly country - Israel - and praise from an enemy and terrorist group - Hamas,

Dear Dan,

Thank you for the clip.

Israelis are very good with satire, they say it all in the face, they don't hold back anything. This particular TV show (Eretz Nehederet - "wonderful land") has a very high rating, it can be brilliant, it makes many people laugh and others vent their anger, but I doubt it ever had any effect beyond that.

Here they are about Netanyahu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuhXquNcATw

Foxy,

Here is the acknowledgement of the blame that can be attributed to the Palestinians quoting your link:

"The second “state” is the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, which proved equally UNWILLING TO COMPPROMISE, tried to use violence when it had little chance of success, and failed to provide the leadership and governance its people need. While the Palestinian Authority and Fatah have many competent and honest officials and voices, far too much of this leadership is weak, ageing, corrupt, and incompetent. It no longer moves forward with any authority, and it cannot reach a very young and often unemployed population under thirty.

The third “state” is Hamas in Gaza, which has relied on increasing levels of VIOLENCE that inevitably provoked an Israeli reaction in kind, and one where Hamas’s use of CIVILIAN AND URBAN AREAS to base its operations and its creation of a massive mix of tunnels and underground facilities – or “metro” – inside Gaza as well as across the border with Israel made civilians in a densely populated and highly urbanized Gaza more and more of a target."

Hoisted by your own petard.

Yuyutsu

I have respect for your views on pacifism which you (most often) display on OLO, but relating those views as acceptable for Israelis with its geographical proximity to openly hostile Arabic neighbours is naive.

As they say, with friends like the US, who needs enemies?

The US simply can’t be trusted as a reliable ally; there is stark historical evidence for that view. Viewed from any angle, it is psychotic.
Ben-Givr is a known radical who harbours a less than hidden view that nothing short of expelling all Arabs from Jerusalem will work. Rule by the chattering class in Tel Aviv Bondi isn’t working towards safety and security mate!

There’ll be no open borders where he’s concerned, so his alliance with Netanyahu if the both are elected, will be a wake up call to many, including the US, who is now totally off side in the ME with its previously staunch allies. Good luck with pacifism.

Dan,

shadowminister,

Hoisted schmoisted!

Give us all a break - you ignoramus.
Bloody selective as always.

The history of failed negotiations tells us that it is
because ISRAEL prefers the status quo. Their oppressive
military which they continue to use - plus their continued
occupation and no signs of it being dismantled - of course
violence invariably becomes more attractive to those who
have no other means of upsetting the status quo.

Dear Dan,

Ben Gvir is not motivated by security and defense, but by the desire to enforce Jewish law in Israel. Defense is only used by him as an excuse.

If he gets his way, then not only Arabs will be expelled, but also "Leftist" Jews (in your words, "the chattering class in Tel Aviv Bondi") who oppose his views as well as other non-Jews who sought refuge in Israel. What he mostly wants to stop is marriage or any sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews, which he would outlaw with penalty of 5 years in prison.

Israel's present defense minister, Benny Gantz, is a former military chief of staff and can handle well any true security issues when they arise. Under his office, in the last year more Arab terrorists were killed than during many years of Netanyahu's rule. But Gantz, who does not share Gvir's objectives, understands that keeping "Palestinian" terrorists within the West Bank and Gaza, helps in hunting them down and bring about less Israeli casualties than sending them out where they can get armed more easily with more rockets and other lethal weapons.

As per your mention of the US, they become less and less relevant as Israel is now stronger and can manage well without them.

Dear Yuyutsu,

How were these so called terrorists when they were largely targeting occupation forces of their land?

They aren't.

* Israel's present defense minister, Benny Gantz, is a former military chief of staff and can handle well any true security issues when they arise.*

Yuyutsu.

Are you aware that It’s Gantzez position of Defence and Security ministry, that Ben-Gvir will be negotiating over with Netanyahu? (Assumption of events of course)
Ben-Gavir was excluded from military service as an Israeli terrorist. These are interesting times in Israel.

Israel still has a need for US sponsorship for their weapons and defence needs. That’s a bitter pill as usual, nothing new!

The upcoming election in Israel will be one of the most interesting in many years, for more than just Israelis too.

If it comes up with a radical right wing government, it gives hope for those like myself that languish under idiot regimes in the West generally; including those in Europe looking for strong leadership, pathetically missing in action ATM.

Dan

Dear SteeleRedux,

«How were these so called terrorists when they were largely targeting occupation forces of their land?

They aren't.»

I did not check whom they targeted most - military or civilians, nor do I have the wherewithals to check that.

In the context of my reply to Diver Dan, which is internal Israeli politics, this was a statement made recently by the current Israeli government and whether it is correct or otherwise by international standards is besides the point. From an Israeli point of view and as far as Israeli politics go, there is a wall-to-wall consensus in Israel that those who threaten Israelis are terrorists who need to be killed, regardless whether they threaten soldiers or civilians. Remember also that most Israeli soldiers are conscripts who are not there by their free will and had no say over where they are posted.

The answer to Ben Gvir and his Nazi ilk, and to the Israeli voter, is that since Gantz already does whatever is needed [possibly more?], there is no security need to escalate the situation by expelling all Arabs from Israel and its occupied territories.

---

Dear Dan,

Yes, everyone in Israel knows that Ben-Gvir and Netanyahu will strive to have a coalition together, this despite the fact that even Ben-Gvir's own party considers Netanyahu a chronic liar!
http://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-720390

I disagree that Israel requires a US sponsorship. Well since it already receives one, Israel doesn't say 'No', but nothing will happen to Israel once this sponsorship ends, soon, I hope.

Yes, the upcoming election in Israel will be one of the most interesting and most scary too.

«If it comes up with a radical right wing government, it gives hope for those like myself that languish under idiot regimes in the West generally»

For you it may not matter, but I am not willing for my family in Israel to pay that heavy price and be placed under a Nazi regime for the sake of teaching the West a lesson, any lesson. Try someone else if you please, some other scapegoat...

Yuyutsu

Thanks for that link. Nothing to go on though.

Look, I understand your concerns for peace and stability, especially with your sensitivities expressed often as you do, focused towards the spiritual aspects of life, but seriously, why are Israelis with a Kahanist bent any less spiritual?

And what is the problem with a Theocratic Israel? Open borders and rainbow flags are past their use by date, no question on that one, a fact precarious Israelis are waking up to!

Dan

Dear Dan,

«And what is the problem with a Theocratic Israel?»

Theocratic Israel (or Theocratic Australia for that matter) would be wonderful, the Kingdom of God, where God rules our hearts from within... - but that is not on the cards: what's on the cards is an Iranian style dictatorship, by humans, very sick humans. Do you really think that God ordained such dictatorship, such intolerance and such harsh punishments? If you do, then I suggest that you do not know God, nor the teachings of Jesus.

Now for starters, some members of my family in Israel are homosexual. They even have beautiful children who grew up lovingly with 2 Dads and 2 Moms. To make things worse, none of my Israeli family believes in Judaism, my family also has no problem with interfaith love (of the romantic kind).

So should the Nazi party gain power in Israel, they, young and old, are to be kicked out of their homes, lose their jobs, their farms, their friends, their country which they and their ancestors worked hard to build and even fought over, and go to exile as refugees in some dreary foreign place (probably facing the freezing winter in fuel-less Europe). That's at best, supposing they would not be caught first, imprisoned for 5 years and have their children taken away into "re-education". Oh, if lucky, I will be able sponsor them into Australia, where we all end up impoverished.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

«why are Israelis with a Kahanist bent any less spiritual?»

In your view, was Hitler also spiritual? He did love his fellows the Jews like himself, the Gypsies, homosexuals and the handicapped too, and all others who did not share his views, didn't he?

Yuyutsu

I accept you have a slim hold on Israel and it’s political problems of survival in a hostile environment. But Jews, whether agnostic or devout share the risk afforded to Israels survival.

There is a dire need for Israel to be kept primarily for Jews. You know, and so do I, of the history of life of Jews without a homeland; it’s appalling.

I could write you a novel on the subject matter of these two paragraphs, but there is no need.
But on the subject of rainbow flags, your mind is a closed book: Bigoted against objectors such as I am. That would make us both bigots in different camps wouldn’t it?

Neither side in this argument will win a war against the Arabs by lacking the ability to negotiate.
I have an opinion which is totally unaccepting of homosexuality presented to me and mine in the form of a rainbow ideology, jammed down our throats at every opportunity.
Put up and shut up is not an option.

I agree homosexuals should not be persecuted, but neither should Jews. But to achieve a safe home in Israel for the majority, there must be personal sacrifices, often by the minority. It’s how life works. Sorry on that one.

On personal spirituality, that one is a selfish animal! Wars are brutal, and the finer fabrics of life must be discarded at times, for the greater good of the tribe. You can’t have it both ways.

Dan

Dear Dan,

Surprise, Surprise, but I do not support the rainbow flag. Actually, I do not support flags at all (except the Ukrainian flag which at this particular time stands for something much bigger). While humans tend to belong to groups, which is fine, identification with these groups is spiritually unhealthy, so while I have nothing against homosexuality or Judaism, I do not believe in fussing about either and turning it into an "identity".

I am not seeking to be in a "different camp" than yourself, but understandably I don't want to see members of my family persecuted. I actually don't want to see anyone persecuted.

Israel need to be kept primarily for those who built it and fought to maintain what they built. These are the Israelis and while most of them are Jews, they have meanwhile developed their own unique culture... or cultures. Israel's present prime-minister Yair Lapid, recognises that holding onto the occupied West Bank is not helpful for maintaining a Jewish/Israeli majority.

Historically, Israel came under great external existential threats, but it survived, became stronger and at present these threats subsided. Fortunately, Arabs no longer pose a serious threat to Israel, but a greater threat arose: internal. Israel is on the verge of a civil war and might not survive it (note that the Romans could only conquer Jerusalem and destroy its temple due to the Jews' internal civil war which burned the supplies of the besieged city, also http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/144571/jewish/Kamtza-and-Bar-Kamtza.htm).

Humans start off as selfish animals. In order to become less selfish, they need to sacrifice, but one needs to sacrifice only things that are dear to themselves. If you wish to sacrifice your own comfort for helping your tribe then God blesses you - but sacrificing others (how less so your [perceived] enemies) and what is dear to them, DOES NOT remove even one iota of your selfishness.

Yuyutsu

Your correct . Spirituality is a much more productive subject.

I thank you for your time, as you thank me for mine.

Dan

Dear Dan,

I thank you too for this discussion.

Foxy,

Ad hominems now?

When you act like a retard and selectively choose what you want from an article, I call you out. There have been negotiated settlements that gave the Palestinians 90% of what they asked for and rejected.

Israel is prepared to compromise but the Palestinians are not. Every inch they are given, they take as their right and want more and resort to terrorism and violence against women and children.

Dear ShadowMinister,

«There have been negotiated settlements that gave the Palestinians 90% of what they asked for and rejected.»

Good that you used the word "asked" rather than "wanted"!

They want to remain under occupation, they want to keep Israel drowning in their swamp, but Israel should not listen or even try to negotiate with them, asking their "permission" to leave - just do what is good for Israel and leave, then they will have to face their own unpleasant company.

shadowminister,

For someone who goes around using derogatory names on
this forum all the time you are in no position to
complain. As for your continued claims regarding Israel?
I am merely stating what the international community,
historians, political commentators, journalists,
witnesses, all state. And you can
deny their claims all you like. History will be the judge.
But you keep on banging your well-worn thin-skinned drum
and dancing to the same old tune.

Foxy,

For someone who goes around using derogatory names on
this forum all the time you are in no position to
complain either.

No one except left-whinge ideologues thinks that the Palestinians are innocent victims or that Israel is entirely to blame.

You must extract yourself from your tiny bubble and emerge blinking into the real world.

Hamas and Fatah are recognised by the world as terrorist organisations.

shadowminister,

The international community recognizes Israel's mistreatment
of the Palestinians. Which evokes violence in return.
Here we go round the mulberry bush ...
Fun - isn't it?

So Foxy how far does your support of terrorists go?

Executing gays?
blowing up school buses?
Stabbing women and children?
Executing "collaborators" who just happen to support opposition groups?
Firing rockets into civilian areas?

etc.

All of which causes a clamp down by Israel.

As you say, both sides are equally culpable.

shadowminister,

Who are the terrorists in this case?

The occupiers or those fighting them?

I suppose you would also classify the Ukrainians
as terrorists.

And yes - both sides are culpable.
But if one side was willing to
cease their occupation and mistreatment perhaps things
just may change. Those who have the strength and power
should lead the way.

Foxy,

They did, Gaza and the west bank now have their own governments and territories and the violence has only increased.

Bitten once......

Foxy,

I missed your previous comment.

Those that target women and children to create fear are terrorists.

The Ukrainians don't thus are not terrorists, the Russians are.

The Palestinians target women and children and thus are terrorists.

The Israelis don't and aren't.

Simple.

"From the Jordan to the sea Palestine shall be free," is the chant of every Palestinian. They do not recognize Jews have legitimate rights to their land. It is the constant complaint by Palestinians to the UN that has given Israel the terrorist banner. They believe they have every right to kill Israelis because they have stolen their land.